Call me Andy (or Strum, or Spider-Man)!
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strumslinger
Member, NW_CrypticDev, Cryptic Developer Cryptic Developer › Posts: 1,724 Cryptic Developer
Fortune find you, adventurers,
You've undoubtedly heard of the Neverwinter Combat League (NCL), which has just ended its preseason. Congratulations to all those who ranked in the top 40!
We want feedback to make sure our next season is just as awesome if not more! Let us know what you thought about the process, the fun factor, the competitive factor or just anything you want to say about the NCL.
As always, keep things respectful and constructive.
You've undoubtedly heard of the Neverwinter Combat League (NCL), which has just ended its preseason. Congratulations to all those who ranked in the top 40!
We want feedback to make sure our next season is just as awesome if not more! Let us know what you thought about the process, the fun factor, the competitive factor or just anything you want to say about the NCL.
As always, keep things respectful and constructive.
Call me Andy (or Strum, or Spider-Man)!
Follow Neverwinter on Twitter: NeverwinterGame
Like Neverwinter on Facebook: Neverwinter
Follow me on Twitter: StrumSlinger
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Comments
- A new scoring/ranking system has to be created because Elo does not work in this application. Elo works for single-player, one on one contests... it does not work for scoring/ranking members of a team, especially if those teams are randomly created.
- I suggest that there be a team ranking... and a solo entrant ranking.
- Also... change the auto-kick for players who have to deal with a disconnect before or during the match.
Number of games played should also be included. A player that has played 30 games and a player that has played 200 games should not be ranked on the same page.
Agree this is a good idea.
Adding a timer to this would probably help. If a player is DCed more than 1:30 then it's probably not a DC issue.
-The rewards need to be reviewed, because a lot of things don't make any sense. Giving players BIS gear for 100 tokens is not a good idea when the hurdle to get them through crafting is much much higher. Giving out unified elements that are BOA would be a better solution or making the gear cost 600-1000 tokens. 600 tokens for a blood ruby doesn't make any sense. You could use your tokens to buy rank 7 enchants, sell, and buy much more than 50-100k RP. 1500 tokens for the purple mount doesn't make any sense the only people that played that many games were ranked in the top 40 and received the armored bulette. 1000 tokens for non-BIS jewelry is pretty stiff. Take some more time to think about the rewards and their price points.
So I'll just ask for one thing.
First the becouse: you managed to stablish a PVP matching system based on your criteria. The problem is that we are able to OutwiT it, thanks to any of chat on and offgame, just pushing "Decline" and leaving queue. That increase the chance to: confront people weaker, win, and a really bad time for the lowers, just becouse the first five oponents the system chooses is fighting against others. That is an advantage thanks to 'a barely legal almost-exploit'.
This is all well resumed with one word: Pop. That is what they tell each others in order to know if they (frecuently PVP guilds members and some others) have to decline or not, and could join.
That is the way: having to decline becouse other member or player was before than you in queue (and of course, they cannot confront between them), or you have permission to play that match.
Easy petition:
Please, do not let us to cancel the match once we join queue: no decline option, so joining to PVP queue means play That match and no other without leaver punishment (30' desertor at first time, 60' if repeat, 90'... and so on).
If you are letting us by now becouse we may need more time for an unexpected reason (very liable in my opinion), you could change that for an increased time before entering for example (45-60'').
Another thing is wanting to go vs a mate and practice (can't in open world becouse a lot of factors). I've used decline option in order to see myself fighting against one of my guild to test things and so. But that afects others, now I know it, not long ago. So can you open a Practice PVPDom mode? In here,
for example, you can leave without derserting.
there will be no need to be 10 people to enter,
being that amount the maximun players, of course.
At the end were two petitions.
Khole.
The TEAM dynamic adds a lot of support, survivability and makes up for a lack of skill.
I feel the need to add another issue...
- Stop penalizing the disconnected person doubly by adding a loss to his record. I know that it would be impossible to remove the losses that were already added to the records, but it would be nice if we do not get screwed 2 times for future impromptu disconnects.
1. Add a separate Q for NCL. Make it ranked and solo only.
2. Tweak disconnect so that if you come back to a game within say 1 min, you don't get kicked
3. 1 of each class per side. one must be cleric or heal pally
4. We are ok with longer q's if the matches are more event. Toward the end of the event we were getting really good matches
5. Vote to concede match option. No need for blow outs to take up more time than needed
6. If two people leave, you should be able to quit the match with no leaderboard penalty. IE same position after the match as when it started
1. Separate queue for Solo and 2,3 and 5 man Premade.
2. We need some kind of team balance improvent as well. Do not place more than 1 tank and 1 healer on each team no matter what. Else teams will lack dps and it's gonna be very boring and long stalemate.
3. We need some kind of minimum Tenacity requirement to join NCL. Players without Tenacity are almost the same as those who went afk or dced.
4. Add some kind CD to Negation enchant. It gives way too much survivality and causes too many stalemates, make it similar to Holy Avenger which can proc once per "X" sec.
5. Some kind of itemlvl balance is needed. 2k item lvl character have very low chance when fighting a 4k item lvl.
6. Better PvP sets as rewards with less RNG please.
7. Try to fix various class bugs which cause balance issues. (most reported via pms or in bug section)
As for class balance isues.
1. tank Paladin:
Even if hard to kill for most classes it can still be perma knocked back or in worst cases it end as stalemate cause it lack dps to kill equally geared opponnets who play properly. The biggest problems are bugs which may cause balance issues. Once these are fixed things will get better.
2. GF burst dmg need to be looked at, or increase the consumption of guard when blocking by non-tank GF.
3. HR's perma CC need to go.
4. CW dodge should be swapped with Warlocks Shift imo. The reasons are that CW got way better CC, dps and survivality than SW. Even without dodge roll CW would still have their OP shield which SW lack.
5. GWF dmg goes through the roof sometimes. I'd recommend reducing amount of stacks and increasing base dmg slighty.
6. DC and OP healer have too much burst heals imo, or maybe it's just negation that makes them so hard to kill. Dodge roll on DC is way too good for survility. It makes landing hard hiting abilities nearly impossible.
7. TR need a lot of changes imo, but a good start would be higher dmg from encounter powers. This class doesnt feel like Assassin anymore, rather a mosquito which can be very annoying but not deadly enough unless you overgeared your enemy.
Suggest a formula that rewards participation. It might look something like this:
* 10 points for a win
* 5 points for a loss, but only for the count up to the win count. For example, 10 wins and 15 losses would reward 10x10 (wins) + 10x5 (losses) + 0 for 5 extra losses
* Same points for kills/deaths
* 10 points per assist
The reason for giving so many points to assists is that the scoring system favours offensive classes and penalises support/defensive classes like SW/OP/GF who spend time holding or supporting on points.
Which brings me to balance. There are too many stun/control mechanics that shut down classes that have low resistance to them. The whole system encourages single cookie cutter builds that exploit the mechanics. Every class should have a number of viable builds with clear advantages and disadvantages. For example, perma stealth TR's should have damage nerfs, to the point of disabling some powers in stealth. They should be able to wittle down a foe, but not outright assasinate it while remaining untouchable. I'm not picking on TR's, there are plenty of other examples like chain knockdowns, chain CC from CW's, perma stun from HR's. If your build allows huge burst damage you should be vulnerable while your doing it, if you choose increased invulnerability then your damage should be nerfed accordingly.
I play a Warlock as my main (Ah ha now I see why he's QQ'ing you all say haha), and my observation is that we get the worst of both sides, no burst damage and nothing even close to invulnerability. There's always the possibility I'm playing my class wrong (and I'd love to talk to successful SW's to figure out if thats the case), but I can't be playing it so wrong that at 3300+ gear score I'm getting owned by 2K'ish TR's and GWF's - regularly. The only explanation is the class is broken, or I don't know the right cookie cutter build to succeed.
Either way, some more thought needs to go in to class balancing in PVP, and the scoring system for the PVP rankings.
Being put into a match where there were not only equally geared players but the team composition was fair. These matches brought out the competitiveness of all the players involve making the game fun. These kind of matches required people to actually communicate and strategize in order to succeed. In the end, not only would you want to take gratittude for your teammates but even for your foes for giving a challenging yet fun game.
Someone taking the lead so that the team has a chance at winning. These matches were very rewarding, at least in my perspective, as I learned how to be more efficient and more effective in pvp. Note: these matches were normally when we were not as equally geared or if someone disconnected.
Meeting people who would readily and happily help out on providing in improving one's class. Such person is Equinox, so you probably know what class I mainly play. Of course when I met him, he trashed me so much I had to asked what he was doing. I had to have some of dose of what he was having, and so I asked him about it, and he gave me his build just like that. I am still a long shot from where he is but at least I now have an idea how to get there. I also main a gf and there were definitely people that were just as cool as equinox.
As you can tell, the downside easily could be the opposite of what I just talked about, however, what I would want to talk about that really annoyed me so much during the event are players who were tantrum throwers. There were not many of them but I guarantee you when one of them is your teammate, you might not as well play. Why?!.. It's because all that you do are wrong, the whole team is nothing but a trash except him or her, for you know, he or she is a God. It would be okay if they were just trash talkers but no, they would call out their teammates and name call them.
I would say it can be fun to be competitive but these people were not competitive but rather passionate only in tantrum throwing. If you want to lead you have to be polite and ask nicely. You can't expect someone to follow you if you have already named call them. Respect begets respect.
I'd say that the event reminded me why I love the game so much which is meeting helpful people and learning from them. Although this event was pvp oriented, it's as though I went back in time when I was still leveling and having hard time killing black dagger at the pirate king's lair or hrimnir at the frozen heart dungeon.
The NCL was exactly the same thing as this race.
Was it fair?
Could it be better?
Will it be better?
YES...
The teams were random unless a group of people entered as a team.
They do not fight at the same level... so is there really a possible comparison? It is the age old comparison of apples and oranges.
By having the bracket what were getting is not the top of the class but rather the top of a specific bracket for that class.
Ranking players based on their abilities is fair. X should fight against X for the top of X bracket.
The biggest issue this NCL was the disconnecting and 30 min penality thing.. like wow, why hasn't this been changed yet? But I had a lot of fun with the queue pops being so quick and the awesome prizes. Worrying about the leader board was new and annoying but that comes with the competition.
SAMOTHRACE
Trickster Rogue
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Those are things that I considered, and from what some of the PvP premade players stated... they would not mind a long queue time if it meant fighting another premade.
SAMOTHRACE
Trickster Rogue
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Call me Andy (or Strum, or Spider-Man)!
Follow Neverwinter on Twitter: NeverwinterGame
Like Neverwinter on Facebook: Neverwinter
Follow me on Twitter: StrumSlinger
There should definitely be two different queues! Solo & Team; partial teams and solos should be allowed to enter the team queue, at the same time full pre-mades should have the option to fight only full pre-mades or include partial/solo pre-mades as opponents. This can be easily done with a check box on the team queue, which would be grayed out unless queuing with a full pre-made. "Include pick up groups as oponents" with a check box. This will help with the time issue and those that want to queue solo can and those that want pre-made have that option also.
REALLY!? Let's nerf every class execpt the poor TRs. It's not like they didn't have enough of them in the top 1000. 25% wasn't enough they need buffs so they can get to 30% - 40% next time.
Just an observation of how your comments look.
Wish there had been some more love for the lower levels but I'm fine with the outcome, over-all.
In general, the event was good (well, some PVP event is better than ordinary matches). But there are some important issues that need to be addressed to make it better:
1. Rewards
What I wanted to say is that, looking at the prizes, one can understand that this is not a serious event. The champion's armoured bulette is actually nothing more but a prettier skin of already existing PURPLE mount. Seriously? This is the reward for top PVP players? I understand the developers do not want to lose money they get from people buying enchanted keys to get better mounts... but these top 40 "prizes" are making it too obvious. Majority of winners already have 110/140 mounts so they do not have motivation to fight for bulette. Please make top 20 instead, but give the winners a decent reward.
Another disappointing reward is rare cache of goods. I saw some statistics - the usual "reward" is 25 tokens. I also opened 3 caches and got 2x25 tokens and 1x50, and it was enough. Basically you are just losing 3/4 of your tokens when you buy this cache. This is not rewarding at all. Drop should be changed to "x tokens AND something of (list of rewards)", or at least add something more valuable, even just dyes, so that it wouldn't fell like a robbery, to 100% reward.
It was also mentioned that "Based on your rankings for the season, you will receive Combat Tokens [...] Along with the rankings bonuses, Combat Tokens will also drop during PvP matches ". I did not notice any of additional tokens (2nd page). Are they coming with my bulette or it was just an empty promise?
2. General balance
If there is no possibility to choose players according to their iLvl, then I agree that at least pre-mades should never be clashed against randoms. Though then there'll be problem of partial packs, because strong players can go in groups of 3 or 4 players and still win matches. Maybe there also should be a restriction: either 1 or 5 players can enter the queue. But iLvl balance (with inability to change gear during a match, to prevent players from taking their BiS gear off before match and them putting it on) would be a better solution.
Auto kicks that make players lose their rank definitely spoil the competition. It is an effective way to fight reloggers, but I'm sure there is a better one that does not make other players suffer.
SAMOTHRACE
Trickster Rogue
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Yeah, it is a nice way to get a free mount. I am also glad that I didn't bind apparatus of Gond to my OP and can sell it now (as soon as I get my beanlette). But as a competitive stimulus it is a bad choice.
We had our own official, but Drider-only PVP tournaments, so for me it is not a "first". And winners got really good rewards - any mount they wanted and a pack from zen market (warlock's or another one, don't remember its name). We also had top 300 players, who got 80% mount (season 1 and 3) and aranea (season 2). And here it is more charity-like. Probably some BiS PVP players didn't even bother to get into top 40. Thar's why I said that NCL was a nice, but not serious event.
Just a consideration:
You queue premade, let's say the usual PvP-guild premade. You don't want long queue but you are ok with a 10 minutes or more useless wait doing nothing, in a match where you crush a random pug in the first minute and then sit down and wait.
Now, let's say you form a premade and wait for queue, and there's no other premade. Ready for the solution?....
...........
.........
......
The 5 BiS geared players go solo queue and magic! Now there are enough players to split them and obtain a...
....
BALANCED MATCH!! With BiS players splitted in 2 teams instead of a BiS premade smashing a random pug!
Isn't this amazing?
"But i want to go premade with friends!! Why should i renounce? It ruins my fun!!"
Nice. True.
Then, isn't it the same when you form a BiS premade or geared premade and go randomly smash hopeless pugs? Aren't you ruining their fun?
You can't really divide whales from pugs, a 3k+ bracket would have absurd queue times, even in solo queue.
So it's, i guess, unavoidable to mix BiS PvPers with pugs.
But the quite simple solution is, that the games that COUNT for NCL are only the ones where you solo queue, in a match where EVERYONE is from solo queue. No duo. No trio. You want to rank up. You go solo queue. This is my suggestion.
You want "premade fun", ok. The result will not affect NCL ranking.
Too easy for a "BiS" couple, say a DC and DPS, go duo queue and win every match vs pugs.
Also:
Add a tenacity bonus to "champion" mount.
New mounts have bonus. Now i think it would make more sense if the top 40 mount was:
1) Bound on pickup. No point if it can be sold.
2) Gives a PvP-related bonus, like a tenacity bonus of 500 points when equipped.