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[Community Feedback] Trickster Rogue Stealth Changes on the Horizon
samothrace22
Member Posts: 359 Arc User
I figured I'd post this here
Chris Meyer
@CrypticGMC
Experimenting with some changes to Stealth in PVP to provide counters to Permastealth. Nothing final yet, but we are looking.
9:17 AM - 5 Dec 2014
https://twitter.com/CrypticGMC/status/540917899481735169
Moderator Update:
System's Designer, GentleManCrush, has elaborated son on his Twitter Message here. Please keep up to date with the discussions since before replying. We know this is a hot topic for many players of a variety of playstyles. Please remember, to stay on topic and remain respectful and constructive in one's replies. Thanks!
Chris Meyer
@CrypticGMC
Experimenting with some changes to Stealth in PVP to provide counters to Permastealth. Nothing final yet, but we are looking.
9:17 AM - 5 Dec 2014
https://twitter.com/CrypticGMC/status/540917899481735169
Moderator Update:
System's Designer, GentleManCrush, has elaborated son on his Twitter Message here. Please keep up to date with the discussions since before replying. We know this is a hot topic for many players of a variety of playstyles. Please remember, to stay on topic and remain respectful and constructive in one's replies. Thanks!
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SAMOTHRACE
Trickster Rogue
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SAMOTHRACE
Trickster Rogue
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Comments
Awesome, props for that. It is boring as f**k wiping everyone with how strong it is now. Our class is still getting a nice buff anyway when the new PvP sets come out with overload slots anyway. At that point it would be really over the top.
Good to know they've acknowledged it as a problem.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
I'm not a perma, so I'm not really crying right now. Plus in that forum I said ''even if there are adjustments...'' because I too knew changes were in the future ^^ I just wonder if they are going to use this stealth change instead of nerfing damage, scoundrel dazes, and whatever else people have an issue with
SAMOTHRACE
Trickster Rogue
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Sadly, the way stealth is intertwined into being a class feature, this makes making stealth work like it should in any D&D setting, near impossible without completely changing many abilities around. Still, I feel it should be done. The rogues we have now are not D&D rogues at all.
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
Well, then gwf too should break unstoppable on any use of at will or encounter. Ahh and if rogue would have that cooldown on stealth then HR as well should have cooldown on melee/range, same goes with any class tab... You actually made yourselves a trouble. You made class dependent on stealth to not be inferior to other classes, so here you have result that everyone goes into stealth as often as he can. Also one other thing is that HR should not have stealth imho.
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
That's just lame IMO leave it alone! frontline surge brings you out so does cw's icy turrain and GWF's have an ability as well but I don't play one so I don't know the name. If you want to do somthing for PvP do somthing about the fact that cw's can 3 hit just about anything in a domination ground.
I am not even perma stealth spec and my stealth bar disapears as soon as I use DF and I think the nerf bat should be put away until you tone down your favored class in the game! its about time rogues had there balls given back after you neutered them in module 2
That's quite wrong.
Let's compare:
current TR can go stealth, attack, go back to stealth right away (META build)
GWF: takes 30% (roughly) of total HP as damage, enters unstoppable. After 8 seconds, back to normal
To compare you should be able to go stealth 8 seconds, then back to visible, take damage, then 8 more seconds of stealth.
TR right now has beast damage. I am 100% for increasing your tankiness even to Destroyer GWF levels, and change stealth to a 8 seconds shot every 30% of damage taken. Let's see how good you are when you actually have to dodge to survive.
Or increasing your tankiness to destroyer GWF levels or HR levels, but when you take damage you can't enter stealth again for 8 seconds.
TRs always complained about being squishy. Now, you have no rights to complain about DPS anymore in PvP, you've plenty enough and then some. If you want, you can have base GWF tankiness but fight out of stealth most of the time and have only 8 seconds stealth shots, linked to damage taken like unstoppable.
Let's see how you perform.
I find it funny how it is "i must be in stealth 99% of the time or i can't fight". Are you serious?
Actually start to fight like any other class do, attacking and THEN being vulnerable and dodging.
You want GWF tankiness? Get it. It's 100x times worse than perma or semi-perma stealth which allows you to not just mitigate damage but avoid it 100% all the time. I wanna see TRs actually fighting and not nuking people from safety of stealth.
Also: HR stealth is short and is a daily. It's not even close to perma or semi-perma stealth.
I say increase TR base tankiness, make them fight with short stealth bursts followed by periods of visibility.
Or limit stealth he same way Unstoppable is limited for GWFs. You can't stay Unstoppable always: it has a COST. Like stealth bar being depleted by damage DEALT, proportionally to how much damage you deal. SO big nukes/ damage= less stealth.
It's to be expected.
In the end, PvP is a competition which pits you directly against another person, with a very clear and definitive result of such confrontation. One guy wins. The other loses. So winning bolsters egos, while losing hurts it. So people are usually FORCED to learn humility before anything else when they first try their hand in PvP. I know I did. It's the same story for most everyone. At first, there's this discomfort in not knowing what will happen. But still, you think to yourself, "hey, its just another game mode. What can go wrong? I'm already a pretty decent player.
Then, bam! Just as you enter a PvP match, or a PvP zone, you're wiped in a matter of seconds. This is the initiation for everyone who enters PvP for the first time. After all this time, feeling smug, feeling "super" in how well you can masterfully clear a PvE content or a quest, you learn for the very first time that there's nothing "super" about how you play. In fact you're nothing but cannon fodder, none of your "tactics" or "moves" that use against stupid, limited AI mobs work, and you have to start from the bottom and relearn everything.
Those who pass this initiation, and are ready to accept just how much they suck compared to the veteran players, make it in the PvP world. Those who can't let go of their egos never learn anything new. They start blaming everything, everyone else for their failures. It is quite amazing to see how much deluded these people are. Of all the stuff they choose to blame for their miserable failures, they never -- not even for a second -- blame themselves. They always do everything right. Their class/build/spec/gear is always adequate. So if they're so perfect in everyway, why do they always get creamed by someone else? Their answer: because the game is biased against them. Because some classes are OP. That's their only mode of thought.
Just for example -- the guy I've given up talking with in the General Discussions. He claims the TR is OP because it did 180k damage within 15 seconds of the fight. That is -- 180k unmitigated damage, he says. Unmitigated damage is those bunch of useless numbers within the parenthesis you see in the log. It's the base figure of damage you get when used against a training dummy, against 0 defense -- which doeesn't exist in the real game. The actual amount of damage he received? Merely 17k over 15 seconds. And yet, he is so sure that the TR is OP. No matter how I point out the actual damage he took and why it is completely normal, he won't listen.
These sort of people -- they've simply made up their minds no matter how much you point out, or present as real-life evidence. I mean, what kind of an idiot quotes the theoretical unmitigated numbers as a reference?
Be that as it may, the failure to "contain" permastealth was evident even during the preview phase. Something must be done about it. My only worry is that the devs may take a totalistic approach that effects and 'depowers' all stealth -- when the problem is simply, and clearly caused by feats/abilities exclusive to the Saboteuer builds.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Then there are the ones who are not that good at PvP and when their class gets OP say it's all ok and balanced cause it's the only way for them to do something in PvP.
I've been PvPing since one year, never went for cheesy builds, learned through hard work how to face perma stealth or semi-perma TRs relying on experience and skills only.
I can point out exactly what makes TRs OP but it's POINTLESS if every TR talks as if the only way for them to ever fight could be through permastealth or semi-perma stealth.
However, it's quite simple: each class offensive potential must be dodgeable, meaning you time your attack, i time my dodges. If my timing is better i hit you and my attack is effective.
Each time defensive capability must leave room for the enemy to attack and hit, and then the result is all about dodging ability and build (DR, DRI, critical strike, HP exc...).
Must be either high risk-high reward, low risk-low reward, medium risk, medium reward.
Current TR is low risk due to overload of defensive tools (from perma or semi-perma stealth, i never see a TR who is in stealth for less than 90% of the time, then there are dodge roll immunities, base movement speed, other immunities or dazes. The OP builds can combine enough tools together to leave a 0,1 seconds opening or no opening at all), but is high reward cause you can decide when, where and how to attack, dealing lots of damage and then deciding when, where and how to retreat and come back.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrmke1LDTGE
Would you consider "balanced" a GWF who is 99% of the time in unstoppable with 80% DR, 0,1s out of unstoppable, more sprint, but squishy enough to get almost 1-rotated (not fully 1-rotated)?
Meaning you can't do shlt all the time but hey, you have that 0,1s opening to kill him.
Cause that is EXACTLY how current META TR build works in PvP. Taking latency into account, that 0,1s are nullified. Oh, yeah. Deflect nullifying stun from FLS. So you have 0,1s to catch the TR but may be when you stun him, your stun does not work due to deflect+ tenacity nullifying it. So you can't land IBS.
In the meanwhile, the TR is free to nuke you the way he prefer.
Fair.
Also glad that this is targeted purely at PvP.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Rebuilding the class completely is obviously not going to be done - they missed that chance with the Mod 5 rework. The best we can hope for is some 'tweaks'.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
It makes no difference. It's all about giving a weapon to fight back.
The question is, how long it will take to devs to actually come up with something.
To me, stealth should greatly slow the TR down and dodge rolls should get quite shorter. You are already invisible. No need to also have more mobility than me, but rather LESS mobility. Then we see how good you are at evading without long rolls spam and epic mount-like base movement speed.
SO you have to actually TRY to flank an opponent to attack and evade his attacks/ kite him.
Good News, any modification in pve, it's fine. Permastealth is just a part of the Rogue possibility, others builds don't need big modification.
A real d&d4 Rogue it's a dream. Same thing for real CW and real HR, those 3 class are cheat with specific builds.
Stealth is not the real problem. The real problem is permastealth and players who cry after a fight againts a no-perma rogue : deafs, blind and bad losers.
Us, no- perma rogues , we were reduced to a subclass for 14 months , we had to learn to survive against op class. OP GWF in mod 3 , OP CW in mod 4 , OP HR from the mod 2. This is their turn.
Balance is not a goal. It's just a commercial logic.
Stealth would have to be a toggle if you slow movement - this is how it works in all other MMOs I have played. With stealth draining steadily with time you have to have fast movement or it becomes completely useless - especially now that most At-Wills drain stealth. Or you would need to add an at-will gap closer.
Dodge rolls cannot be reduced because those of us who fight outside of stealth need the extra dodges. The length could be reduced for all I care - nobody asked for that change and for Rogues who are in melee it can actually be a hindrance since we lack a spammable gap closer.
Anyone who thinks that a leather-wearing, dagger-weilding melee class should have LESS mobility than a heavily armoured warrior is just asking for an unjustifiable nerf.
Be happy the devs are listening to all the QQ.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
However I feel Sab builds should be more about what you can do while in stealth such as increased damage or debuffs rather than focusing on staying in stealth or regaining your stealth meter faster. Maybe also add a short cooldown after leaving stealth before you can again, like maybe 10 secs?
Stealth is SUPPOSED to drain/ have a limit. In theory. REALITY is, as we all know, that with the proper build stealth is 99% of the time for a properly build PvP TR.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrmke1LDTGE
So my suggestion takes into account a permastealth build. It's not a class-wide change. But make it unavoidable with what will be a perma or semi-perma stealth build, that you introduce a tone down to movement speed and dodges. So other builds can have the increased mobility and dodges but a build using stealth heavily will have its mobility reduced during stealth.
Fix for you: i'm not asking for a leather-wearing class to be slower than a armor wearing class.
I'm asking for a leather-wearing class MOVING IN STEALTH/ FURTIVITY to have less mobility then another class freely moving in plain sight. It's a nonsense to put together furtivity AND movement speed buff. When you try to move unnoticed you actually move slower, not faster. It makes indeed perfectly sense that a leather-wearing thief trying to conceal/ hide himself has to move slower and not faster than a character moving freely.
CC depression is already in tenacity with CC reduction 20%. DPS depression is supposed to be critical resistance from tenacity. Problem is, DPS buff in module 3-4 was too much and now tenacity is not enough. Should buff overall damage reduction and double it or introduce changes to turn it back to how it was at the end of module 2: people died, but slowly, and got time to fight back/ come up with a strategy. Now people die in seconds.
Stealth must be dealt with separately. In PvE TRs need it. In PvP must be toned down or devs should add a counter as they announced.
Gloom level 60 Control Wizard
Dusk level 60 Trickster Rogue
Dawn level 60 Devoted Cleric
Eclipse level 60 Hunter Ranger
Wrath level 60 Great Weapon Fighter
Jinx level 60 Scourge Warlock
My idea of DPS, Control and Stealth Depression is independent of any stats. Similar to Healing Depression, you don't need to max any stat to achieve this - it just happens - and so should DPS, Control and Stealth Depression. Which means it's a automatic DPS, Control and Stealth reduction to the player and benefit the enemies. Again I stress this is simply bringing it inline to how Healing Depression works.
But to benefit party members, all classes should have a class feature similar to Righteousness that buff party members' stealth, dps and control by 70%, not to oneself.
When you strike a player while stealthed they will be able to see you for 2 seconds. You are revealed only to the player you struck. Damage over time effects will only trigger this reveal on initial damage application at this time.
This still allows rogues to try and pick targets effectively, but once you have been targeted by a rogue you will have access to far more options than you did before (i.e. you can target them). As an added bonus, when you are struck by a rogue in stealth you are just becoming more keenly aware of stealth, and other stealthed rogues will become visible to you as well. Stealth damage bonuses and critical bonuses will still apply against targets who can see the rogue.
Your primary goal as a rogue in PVP who utilizes stealth fully will become something more of a "heat seeking missile" picking high priority targets to engage with in a forced 1 on 1 situation.
This change is in testing and is *NOT FINAL* as of this time. We are experimenting with several options based on our technical limitations with how stealth works and what will feel good to players without removing all the skill and playstyle surrounding stealth.
Sounds good. Can't wait for testing, I need more of a challenge. Thanks for filling us in.
1st) I like this idea Crush however would STRONGLY encourage you to put that down to 1 second since 2 is a LONG time to be seen. This makes stealth worthless, WORTHLESS!!!!
Also I would put a "range" on the TR being able to see other TRs to maybe like a 30-50' deal rather than unlimited "range" on seeing other stealthed TRs. This again makes it worthless. Giving a "heightened" awareness is great, but stealth IS the TRs survivability!
TLDR:
1) After damaging a target, TR should be visiable to THAT target for only 1 second (down from 2)
2) Stealthed TRs can see other Stealthed TRs at a heightened range of 30'
Say the word and I will personally test this free of charge with you guys 24/7 untill your content
as ayroux mentioned 2 seconds is far to long, any range class will be able to cast CC on you if your throw a Cloud of Steel dagger from stealth, this needs to be 1 second for sure
The target being able to see other stealthed TRs at the same time is an interesting twist. It will stop them being oppressed by TRs acting in concert to plant one hit and then run off while the 'reveal' wears off while another TR takes over.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
I do agree about how stealth and movement should work in general, and as I said that's how it works in other games. Unfortunately stealth works so differently in NWO that this would not be workable.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Even more trouble is the fact that he -- and a lot of others as well -- sees these problems in balance as only something on the TR's end, when in fact balance is actually a WEB that involves everyone and everything entangled in it. In that sense, when you've mentioned the unrealistic element of plate-armoured, 7' tall giants swinging 6' long weapons running around faster than a lightly armoured acrobats with two elbow-length shivs, you basically nailed the point whether you realize it or not.
You want the TRs to be more visible? Out of some ridiculous references to "realism"? Fine. Throw out the double standards and make it work both ways, because under how things are currently designed the TR, whichever path it is, simply requires stealth as a tool for survival. Initially many TRs actually DID request the base survivability of TRs be increased upto levels that allow fight out of stealth -- except even mod5 didn't provide us that. So, then it is only natural the "order of realism" come forth as a new basis of determining balance.
GFs and GWFs with all that <censored> amount of metal on them shouldn't be "lunging" or "sprinting" anywhere. Maybe for a very short sprint bursts of 5~10 feet at max, and sudden lunges of two or three steps forward. The TR should be moving at twice its current speed so it can actually come in and out of melee range, move fast enough to flank or take the backside when a lumbering metal-clad behemoth comes for him. Get rid of the <censored> of simple vocal shouting being able to damage you physically. Ofcourse, Unstoppable should be used before hand the CC works, not a simple "get out of jail free" card.
Of course, this also means every other class needs to be rebalanced. CWs and HRs don't get the nerves of steel, hence any melee attack landing while they try to attack from range should cancel/deterr attempted attacks. All spells need significantly longer casting time and casting bars, which is in danger of being cancelled upon any attack due to break of concentration, no insta-cast holds/stuns. All HRs should be basically forcibly moved to something that more closely resembles the Archery tree, and no bullshi* stuff like 83' lunges or prones from a fantasy boar.
So basically we return to the very, very old and traditional depiction of the fighter, archer, rogue, spellcaster classes closer to the original D&D. Is that what the people want?
Because, clearly the amount of restrictions and nerfs these people want imposed on the TR would have the rogues return to D&D of the 80's. If that be the case, I see no reason why only the TR must fall under such changes. ALL balance issues must be treated the same.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
what about the damage that they can do, not takin in consideration that you cannot hit.
what about the damage they can do.
revise the % damage they get, cause with 2-3k power sure they hit resonable, but with 8k-9k power they one shot.
as they can spam dailies they need a 20-30% damage nerf on all dailies, same with CW.
so when the LIFESTEAL nerf, we need that to be applied on HR combat paragon aswell.