Change is Coming

samothrace22

Aug 5
Chris Meyer
‏@CrypticGMC
For those who are following along there are ALSO some really awesome Rogue changes in the works. That's right. Making your feats cool. Woo!

And.... TODAY!
Chris Meyer ‏@CrypticGMC 8h
So Clerics and Rogues have had a lot of overhauls in the last month. I am super excited for the reveals on them. 20ish more days!

https://twitter.com/CrypticGMC/status/509398160418955264

Sounds like next month to me



Thanks angrysprite: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?755471-Thank-the-Gods-Requital-for-Clerics-Soon

crusherbeast

Well maybe someone knows and understand but why all those reworks? Like divine mode this time and many others before. If they didn't make op class in the first place they would not have to rework other classes after. Seriously it is not efficient to make class op and then work few patches by reworking others so it will be balanced. What infact should be done from begun of game and in the future is working by this way.
-GWF should have never been created so op in mod 2
-TR should have never been nerfed in pve as it was. That is the biggest mistake of this game so far, to drive class into such a uselessness
-HR should have never been created as op in mod 3+
-CW should have never been changed in mod 4 as it was
-GF is with too op damage in this mod, this is not balance
If these things one after other would have been done this way there would not be reason to rework classes now and in future. I really hope devs will think how to make their work more effective.

reiwulf

I can't wait to know what changes will it bring, let's hope we can be relevant in PVE again.

dakbur

Sounds like the goal will be first week in October for test server.

I'm really excited about these changes too, I can't wait to see what kind of overhaul they have in mind. I just hope it isn't tinkering.

vteasy

looked through some of his posts, looks from them like they are just re-working our feats. Which don't get me wrong is needed, but I was hoping they would take a look at our powers and ways ability effected IE arm pen

reiwulf

It's too soon to tell anyway, we have to wait till they give more info or for any changes to hit the preview server.

samothrace22

I was hoping the TR class advocate would be in for some pointers before the re-work too but still time

suddenlyslow

Feats, don't fail me now!

chestnut13

suddenlyslow wrote: »

Feats, don't fail me now!

You can be my Dixie chicken ....

mxtime

reiwulf wrote: »

I can't wait to know what changes will it bring, let's hope we can be relevant in PVE again.

whats it up to u
u play legit channel and have np what so ever
tr is support class we dont need another cw,gwf,sw in the group just a bit help on the side

kweassa

mxtime wrote: »

whats it up to u
u play legit channel and have np what so ever
tr is support class we dont need another cw,gwf,sw in the group just a bit help on the side

Talk about raving lunacy...

It used to make sense in at least some perverted way when you were targeting and hounding only myself and some other people on the forums who didn't agree with any of your shi*down smack talking, since obviously you can't stand some non pre-made casual players talking about PvP....

...but now you're just barking at anybody, anyone.

rei's been a long time member of the Thieve's Den forums, he's not even talked about PvP nor offended any premade dipshi* in any manner and he certainly doesn't need that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> from you. He doesn't even talk much or write long stuff and what you're doing is totally uncalled for.

And yet, you just seem to go about attacking and fouling everyone you see.

What gives? Is it your monthly period or something?

suddenlyslow

chestnut13 wrote: »

You can be my Dixie chicken ....

What! Someone else actually knows them.

samothrace22

seamus rowe ‏@seamus351 Sep 13
@CrypticGMC What kind of changes for TR's mod 5? Will we finally not be insta kicked from pve groups?


Chris Meyer
‏@CrypticGMC
@seamus351 @CrypticGMC tl; dr. All new feat trees reworked to be much more cohesive towards their goals. And power damage tweaks.


https://twitter.com/CrypticGMC/status/510995274055962624

adernath

When looking at the leaderboard on page 1 I see all classes present besides clerics. I dont understand why there is always so much QQ about TRs being 'weak'.

crusherbeast

TR with same gear has no chance against other class skilled to kill them. That is because TR has no dmg, no cc, no defence, no healing, no hp. Ranking is not about which class is good. It is about win/loose and against who. TR can survive any class that's why it will always be part of any strong group so they will be high in ranking anyway. That won't change fact TR won't kill anyone solo if they have glyphs and strong gear. Example is that when u hit for example HR with daily and kill him he revive with soul stun u forever and heal to full hp in few seconds and there is absolutely nothing u can do so no sense for TR trying to kill if sb is that op.

adernath

crusherbeast wrote: »

TR with same gear has no chance against other class skilled to kill them. That is because TR has no dmg, no cc, no defence, no healing, no hp. Ranking is not about which class is good. It is about win/loose and against who. TR can survive any class that's why it will always be part of any strong group so they will be high in ranking anyway. That won't change fact TR won't kill anyone solo if they have glyphs and strong gear. Example is that when u hit for example HR with daily and kill him he revive with soul stun u forever and heal to full hp in few seconds and there is absolutely nothing u can do so no sense for TR trying to kill if sb is that op.

I claim that those TRs on page 1 play well enough to be there. With your own words: they have a good win/lose ratio, ergo they have a good performance. TRs have enough dps to kill people if they are geared. Of course if you only spam knifes in stealth and have no proper gear you wont scratch anyone. I have seen good TRs who use abilities and different at-wills and hit very hard and are strong in wearing your hp down, while many TRs who only use knifespam are cannonfodder.

What do you think will happen with those players if you buff TRs again? They are already on page 1, what do you want more? A buff of certain things must come along with a nerf of other things they are using.

kweassa

adernath wrote: »

What do you think will happen with those players if you buff TRs again? They are already on page 1, what do you want more? A buff of certain things must come along with a nerf of other things they are using.

Hence, get rid of whatever the ability to keep refreshing stealth multiple times -- and then buff every other aspect of the TR -- base damage, DoTs/bleeds, movement speed, utilities, active defense powers, CCs ... EVERYTHING, the "Whole Package" -- that was left in a miserable state and justified for it on the grounds that us TRs already had OP "attack from stealth, unlike other games" trait.

Something I've been arguing for ages.

naicalus

Arguing that PvP TRs being on page 1 means there's no problem with the class is both short-sided and ludicrous.

A very few PvP TRs have the gear level necessary to break from the permastealth build dictated by the current state of the class. Most don't, and the useful strategy for PvP unless you don't care in most situations is to go semiperma even if you aren't a perma build. On the rare occasions I bother to participate in some form of PvP, generally GG or an IWD BI Dom, I slap on a Profound set and a couple of regen rings and load my bar with at least Shadow Strike, if not Shadow Strike and Bait and Switch. I'm not running full BIS everything, so this is generally the best strategy for me since I'm PvE built - If I'm seen, my 25k HP is ripped through rather quickly by any class who can afford to actually spec for damage in PvP. That leaves semi-perma, which I don't really enjoy, but.

So a lot of the TRs running around are permastealthing because it's about the only thing they can do. And hey, you can hold down a node if nobody can see you, great. That helps your team win. So you contribute, but yeah, you're probably not on the front lines as much. This is as boring and same-y as the PvE meta.

Ah yes, PvE. The TR's real problem point. We have no damage, no defenses, ItC isn't up nearly as much as you really need it to be in dungeons full of red circles and using it from stealth keeps you from using stealthed Lashing Blade, you're not getting your Flurry bleed stacks built up and maintained while you're using your two dodge rolls to avoid getting splatted. I disagree mightily with Kweassa about TR neeing to be a CC-heavy class since that's never been what the Rogue has been about in any edition of D&D ever, but it's true we have basically no CC, just a couple of dazes.

Sure, you can perform OK, with enough GS and experience. But the fact is, while we still do decentish single target damage if geared enough, we're also not doing enough to justify ourselves. Dungeon design can be argued to be against us, but we didn't have as much issue in Beta or even up through Mod 1. We hadn't been fully gutted yet then, and for a brief while people were OK with more than one TR in a party because we were great for those annoying big adds and the bosses.

The problem is, besides all the damage nerfs, the buffs to everyone else(GWF was once shunned as being useless. Then they got buffed into godhood for a while and are still good, CW is still a ludicrous monster), and the simple fact of GS inflation - The content is no longer challenging. You don't need a TR to take down the big thing anymore; not only is he no longer as good at it as he used to be, but your CW stacking is going to be more than capable of destroying the content you've more than doubled the GS requirement for.

It's not even that TR doesn't have a role, we do, we're just so nerfed we can't do it well anymore and it's not *needed* anymore because they don't have content hard enough to need it. Four modules worth of boons, hell, I have 16k GS now with Rank 7s with 3 purple artis, not even legendary, one of those is only L60, but I don't even need maxed artis and rank 10s to hit a GS that was once ludicrously high and something you thought you'd never reach or need to reach.

Well, guess what, you still don't 'need' to reach it. You can, in fact, clear ToS/SP/etc with a 9k GS party. It's harder and you need tactics beyond 'throw more CWs at it', but yep, you can do it.

But people are easily bored and have that 'gogogogogogo' mindset. Legit isn't a solution. I see TRs in there all the time advertising throughout the entire DD hour without a party taking them while CWs, GWFs, HRs, SWs, even GFs get taken left and right. There's at least one elitist player in Legit who won't take a TR if there's already one in the party even as they ask for more 'DPS'. Funny, last I looked TR was supposed to be a DPS class. (Which is codswallop, I've been in plenty of multi-TR parties who had 0 issues, but it's a good example of the kind of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> mindset that affects even Legit.)

So yes, TRs do have a problem. Especially in PvE. Why take a TR when you can take... Any other class that isn't a DC? (I've even seen requests in legit for specifically a healer SW, speaking of DCs. For all the high-minded talk of not caring about GS/class, there's a **** lot of caring about it there.)

reiwulf

I can't wait to see what the devs are planning for TRs, I might be too optimistic, but I think good things will come to us.
What I want is for the TR to be a FUN class to play.

reiwulf

edit: double post sorry

reiwulf

Oh yeah, I should have been more specific. I want the TR to be a fun class, while actually doing good damage XD

samothrace22

kweassa wrote: »

Hence, get rid of whatever the ability to keep refreshing stealth multiple times -- and then buff every other aspect of the TR -- base damage, DoTs/bleeds, movement speed, utilities, active defense powers, CCs ... EVERYTHING, the "Whole Package" -- that was left in a miserable state and justified for it on the grounds that us TRs already had OP "attack from stealth, unlike other games" trait.

Something I've been arguing for ages.

This sounds wonderful

showmelights

I asked GentlemanCrush again on twitter about when will we have changes announced and he replied

Latest I had heard was aiming for next week. But no definitive timeline yet.

https://twitter.com/CrypticGMC/status/514223106907324416

So I guess we'll have to wait a little bit more. I'm nervous about this.

crixus8000

Good luck to all you rogues and clerics, I hope you get the changes you wanted

veshorok

i do really hope i can return to my pve tr - my very first character in Neverwinter..
anyway best of luck to the rogue community and cool buffs from the dev team

ghoulz66

Only issue is making them work for PVE without breaking them for pvp, which you CANNOT simply give em damage buffs. They need a total rework of almost everything about them.

For DCs, give em destroyer/archery style OP feats. Sad how ONE feat from any of their trees are almost superior to everything in the DCs paragon feats as a whole.

izidius

ghoulz66 wrote: »

Only issue is making them work for PVE without breaking them for pvp, which you CANNOT simply give em damage buffs. They need a total rework of almost everything about them.

For DCs, give em destroyer/archery style OP feats. Sad how ONE feat from any of their trees are almost superior to everything in the DCs paragon feats as a whole.

Agreed, the TR needs a complete overhaul.

ghoulz66

Honestly, I think they dug a hole they can't crawl out of. I can't see them fixing TRs without redoing their encounters and mechanics from scratch.

twilightwatchman

crixus8000 wrote: »

Good luck to all you rogues and clerics, I hope you get the changes you wanted

There's a first time for everything, I guess.

balufunke

O.K the TR might need some changes but please don´t create another boring AOE class.
I know most of the time there are AOE fights but that´s why the TR is so unique and fun to play because of his single target abilities in combination with all the in and out strategies.