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  • havlockehavlocke Posts: 194Member Arc User
    nemesrich said:

    draugkir said:

    draugkir said:

    When you spend cash getting a service or a good from a company, better check first and carefully the company.

    What they are doing at the moment will speak a lot for the way people will see Perfect World and Cryptic in the future.

    Yes, everyone should always be careful but what they are doing at the moment is more or less the same as what they have been doing for years. The difference is the impact that affected those negatively in the past probably left and are not speaking now. Personally, I don't see a slight difference between now and then. I am not saying this is better or worse, right or wrong. Just, relatively, it is indifferent.
    You wont see much diference. Their income values will.
    I was talking about what they are doing now is indifferent to what they have been doing in the past.
    Every time, the same comment repeats.
    Let me count and I probably miss a lot.
    The first DC change, mod 6, professional asset pack, SKT, rank 14, ...
    So far Neverwinter could stay alive because it was unique amongst the wide selections of MMOs mainly because of the classes' playstyle. In mod 16 NO will become an average MMO with a boring class playstyle. Not hard to guess what will happen.
    The main difference for me in NWO is that it doesn't have tab targetting. That's pretty much it. Every other MMO I've ever played has had "unique" class playstyles. Playing a Jedi or a Smuggler in SWTOR is certainly different playstyles from each other. This game is nice but I don't think you can put it on that high a pedestal.
  • adinosiiadinosii Posts: 3,455Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited March 22
    greywynd said:

    People look at the calendar and see all the stuff piled up on the 11th of April and assume.

    The only thing the calendar suggests is that the game will not be released on the 16th in the middle of the events. I suspect they may have planned for a release on the 9th originally, but now it looks more like the 23rd, or (even more likely) April 30th. So, yea...5 weeks as a guess.
    Waiting to see how bad things will be.
  • pitshadepitshade Posts: 3,797Member Arc User
    I am guessing sometime in May. Asterdahl recently posted that the Preview release wasn't as close to live release as it is normally and that they are still working on numerous issues.

    https://imgur.com/a/zicFSYV
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • lldtlldt Posts: 183Member Arc User
    edited March 22


    Unlike many MMOs, Cryptic created an economic system you're hard pressed to find outside of Eve and a very few other games.

    YOU DON'T NEED TO SPEND A SINGLE PENNY OF REAL WORLD CURRENCY.

    That could be the issue here too. In many other MMOs, some things are restricted to cash purchases only. Many who have been playing this game for years, even semi casually, have so much AD, they don't need to buy Zen ever again. Even newer players, if they chose the right class and farmed ToNG or CoDG early on for UES to sell.

    I think this MOD 16 "reset" is to make the game appealing and good for new players. From a business perspective, they don't care about those of us who never need to spend again.

    For MMOs, if I try and really like, I might spend 1-2x a normal game on QoL stuff in the beginning and then just play it casually (watch TV and play NW on the side - can't do this on all content, but most). I think if you feel the need to rush to be BiS ASAP and spend to get there, it's a losing game and best left to those that make so much money that it doesn't matter to them.

  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Posts: 662Member Arc User
    The Zen flowing into the ZAX is minimal these days. Both is my oldest ZAX entry getting very old, and the ZAX queue is increasing rapidly. This probably mirrors the amount of Zen being spent directly.

    The reason is obvious, people don't want to spend money(or time..) on a game with an uncertain future.

    Cryptic are losing money with every week passing now, so I think they are highly motivated to get mod 16 to Live asap.
    Lets just hope they can wait long enough that it at least is somewhat playable.
  • krumple01krumple01 Posts: 481Member Arc User

    The Zen flowing into the ZAX is minimal these days. Both is my oldest ZAX entry getting very old, and the ZAX queue is increasing rapidly. This probably mirrors the amount of Zen being spent directly.

    The reason is obvious, people don't want to spend money(or time..) on a game with an uncertain future.

    Actually this explanation isn't quite accurate. It might be true, but not accurate. There are other reasons such as the price or value of zen is much higher than 500 AD per 1 zen. This alone would build a disincentive for intelligent players not to use the exchange to sell zen for ad. Because you essentially are not getting your Zen worth of AD. I bet if Cryptic were to raise the cap from 500 to 1000 or 2000, the exchange would start to pick up activity. I bet you 1 billion AD that the exchange would become far more active than it has been.

    I watch the exchange closely and keep track of its progress. The lowest it had ever gotten was back during mod 12 when it reached 7 million in backlog. That's the lowest it has been since. Sure during each mod release since 12 the exchange does pick up a little activity but very little.

    Smart players know that zen is worth more than 500 ad per 1 zen.


    Cryptic are losing money with every week passing now, so I think they are highly motivated to get mod 16 to Live asap.
    Lets just hope they can wait long enough that it at least is somewhat playable.

    I'm not sure why players make this argument. It's so far from the truth. Cryptic has multiple games and each game can make up for another games lack of income. So Cryptic isn't scrambling to get mod 16 out or hoping it saves NW. This mod 16 has been worked on for over a year. It has been a long development process for this mod more so than any other mods. A company "highly motivated" would take over a year to release a mod? Really? Just silly what players assume to be true.

  • silverkeltsilverkelt Posts: 4,149Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    yes.. but zen was never worth 500 to 1 .. ever and yet people still sell zen.. so that argument is a bit futile.. simply put, people are spending less on the game atm..

    I dont blame them.. mod 16 is the biggest change they ever have done.. it makes mod 6 changes seem simplistic.

    There definitely will be some player loss, whether that in the end will impact them is uncertain at the moment.



  • greywyndgreywynd Posts: 3,433Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    If they raised the cap the economy in game would crash. They've got a live model to look at with the Russian server.
    Better to be a white knight than a knight with no honor.

    With your shield or on it.
  • dread4moordread4moor Posts: 888Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    lldt said:


    Unlike many MMOs, Cryptic created an economic system you're hard pressed to find outside of Eve and a very few other games.

    YOU DON'T NEED TO SPEND A SINGLE PENNY OF REAL WORLD CURRENCY.

    That could be the issue here too. In many other MMOs, some things are restricted to cash purchases only. Many who have been playing this game for years, even semi casually, have so much AD, they don't need to buy Zen ever again. Even newer players, if they chose the right class and farmed ToNG or CoDG early on for UES to sell.

    I think this MOD 16 "reset" is to make the game appealing and good for new players. From a business perspective, they don't care about those of us who never need to spend again.

    For MMOs, if I try and really like, I might spend 1-2x a normal game on QoL stuff in the beginning and then just play it casually (watch TV and play NW on the side - can't do this on all content, but most). I think if you feel the need to rush to be BiS ASAP and spend to get there, it's a losing game and best left to those that make so much money that it doesn't matter to them.

    This is such an insightful and probably factual summary of the NW currency/player diversity dynamic.
    I had to give it a Ditto.

    Cryptic Motivation:
    Needs lower operating cost, lower FTE staff maintenance and new players (both paying and FTP) to survive.
    Hence Mod16 is simplified and targeting new players.
    NOT that they want to actively get rid of veteran players). It's not malicious, lldt.
    image


    Veteran Players:

    They spread the gambit from former "Whales" who want to protect their money "investment" to FTP mastergamers protecting their time "investment". Also many who are a blend of both.

    The Took is somewhere in-between, feels the existential angst of both.
    Well said, @lldt.
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • krumple01krumple01 Posts: 481Member Arc User

    yes.. but zen was never worth 500 to 1 .. ever and yet people still sell zen.. so that argument is a bit futile.. simply put, people are spending less on the game atm..

    I dont blame them.. mod 16 is the biggest change they ever have done.. it makes mod 6 changes seem simplistic.

    There definitely will be some player loss, whether that in the end will impact them is uncertain at the moment.

    You obviously haven't been playing very long. Back during mod 11 and before that the Zen exchange use to be active where there was no backlog. Its because there was less AD in the game, just before they introduced salvaging. Salvaging caused the AD in the game to spike high which caused inflation making zen worth more than 500 ad per 1 zen. So you can't sat zen was "never" worth 500 ad, because you have no clue what you are talking about.

  • warrianswarrians Posts: 96Member Arc User
    edited March 22

    Don't hold your breath for that one. I too am not very pleased that we spent real cash to purchase specific items, like mounts and companions, from the Zen Store only to have the product that we purchased changed after the fact. They should offer a trade in for a Zen refund to those who want it.

    That, my friend, is why companies like these sell you virtual currency, and then let you use virtual currency to buy imaginary things. If they were selling the items for straight dollar, you could just sue them XD Great moneymaker, the internet, see ???

    In another game, i saw a friend of mine buy a lot of donor time just to be banned later for playing so good in pvp that his score was unreal. Auto banning. He tried to sue them for taking his cash and then preventing him from playing, but... this is the internet, they didnt sell him donator time, instead, he "donated" of his own good will, and then they "rewarded" him with donator time. All "legal", all with an online contract. Lol. And thats why i dont spend real cash in virtual goods.
  • akemnosakemnos Posts: 452Member Arc User
    krumple01 said:

    yes.. but zen was never worth 500 to 1 .. ever and yet people still sell zen.. so that argument is a bit futile.. simply put, people are spending less on the game atm..

    I dont blame them.. mod 16 is the biggest change they ever have done.. it makes mod 6 changes seem simplistic.

    There definitely will be some player loss, whether that in the end will impact them is uncertain at the moment.

    You obviously haven't been playing very long. Back during mod 11 and before that the Zen exchange use to be active where there was no backlog. Its because there was less AD in the game, just before they introduced salvaging. Salvaging caused the AD in the game to spike high which caused inflation making zen worth more than 500 ad per 1 zen. So you can't sat zen was "never" worth 500 ad, because you have no clue what you are talking about.

    Zen was backlogged long before Module 11. it first backlogged way back in 2014 due to the Astral Resonator exploit that was highly abused. It never really recovered after that. There were times it would dip slightly under 500 but for the most part it has been over 500 for a long time.
  • akemnosakemnos Posts: 452Member Arc User
    sorry for the double post. for some reason I cant edit my posts

    just did a quick look at the Zen exchange first hit 500 to 1 way back in December of 2013.

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/526209/did-cryptic-ever-said-what-they-going-to-do-when-zen-price-hits-500-cap

    The 11th post is when it hit the cap. so saying it wasn't capped before mod 11 is laughable.
  • plasticbatplasticbat Posts: 5,701Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited March 22
    Zen was backlogged to 500:1 when I joined in Mod 3. The waiting time was half a year. Getting Zen was an annual planning project. Hence, whenever people said the current wait is long these days, well, it is nothing for me.

    There was a dip to be below 500 in mod 6 because a big chuck of people left. Another dip was after leadership could not generate rAD anymore. In addition, there was not a lot of incentive to get Zen in a period after lockbox key could not be sold. The Zen demand picked up after VIP was introduced.
  • krumple01krumple01 Posts: 481Member Arc User
    akemnos said:

    sorry for the double post. for some reason I cant edit my posts

    just did a quick look at the Zen exchange first hit 500 to 1 way back in December of 2013.

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/526209/did-cryptic-ever-said-what-they-going-to-do-when-zen-price-hits-500-cap

    The 11th post is when it hit the cap. so saying it wasn't capped before mod 11 is laughable.

    I never said it wasn't capped. I said it was positively trading with no backlog. I'm referring to the closest time up to this point which was mod 11. It was positively trading with no backlog. I don't care about when it first starting backing up. The point still stands that by restricting the free floating value of AD to 500 cap has prevented players from finding it reasonable to trade Zen for AD. Most players get around this issue by rather buying Zen items and selling them on the AH since their Zen worth can be easily established far above 500 ad per 1 zen. Cryptic is well aware of this and has been trying to prevent players from using Zen items to make AD outside the exchange.
  • kharkov58kharkov58 Posts: 145Member Arc User
    What is Cryptic doing to prevent players from using zen items to make AD outside the exchange? There have been no changes that prevent this to my knowledge. The only thing that is annoying about the process is having to purchase only 1 coal ward, or 10 preservation wards at a time.
  • havlockehavlocke Posts: 194Member Arc User
    edited March 23
    kharkov58 said:

    What is Cryptic doing to prevent players from using zen items to make AD outside the exchange? There have been no changes that prevent this to my knowledge. The only thing that is annoying about the process is having to purchase only 1 coal ward, or 10 preservation wards at a time.

    Trading between players is just that. Something between players. You can't restrict that. The only thing they can do is remove the 500 to 1 cap on exchange And that could just destroy the economy even worse.
  • dread4moordread4moor Posts: 888Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    > @kharkov58 said:
    > What is Cryptic doing to prevent players from using zen items to make AD outside the exchange? There have been no changes that prevent this to my knowledge. The only thing that is annoying about the process is having to purchase only 1 coal ward, or 10 preservation wards at a time.

    Not really a large-volume economy issue.
    Never seen any evidence that zen-item trading dilutes AD much.
    Bots were our biggest problem in the past.
    Now it is a FTP/Paying customer mismatch.

    Absolute FTP players sometime complain about the ZAX wait. But where do they think that Zen is coming from?
    Unicorn farts?

    Very litte harm from your trades. Harm would require a large volume of cash players to give you zen at a value loss (sold at 500ad ehen people willing to pay more for instant zen.
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • plasticbatplasticbat Posts: 5,701Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    kharkov58 said:

    What is Cryptic doing to prevent players from using zen items to make AD outside the exchange? There have been no changes that prevent this to my knowledge. The only thing that is annoying about the process is having to purchase only 1 coal ward, or 10 preservation wards at a time.

    That is expected but there is a risk factor for the seller to decide if they want to go that route (because "policy" can be changed).
    When c-ward was introduced in t-bar store, that market crashed overnight.
  • kemnimtarkaskemnimtarkas Posts: 540Member Arc User
    krumple01 said:

    yes.. but zen was never worth 500 to 1 .. ever and yet people still sell zen.. so that argument is a bit futile.. simply put, people are spending less on the game atm..

    I dont blame them.. mod 16 is the biggest change they ever have done.. it makes mod 6 changes seem simplistic.

    There definitely will be some player loss, whether that in the end will impact them is uncertain at the moment.

    You obviously haven't been playing very long. Back during mod 11 and before that the Zen exchange use to be active where there was no backlog. Its because there was less AD in the game, just before they introduced salvaging. Salvaging caused the AD in the game to spike high which caused inflation making zen worth more than 500 ad per 1 zen. So you can't sat zen was "never" worth 500 ad, because you have no clue what you are talking about.

    Yup. I remember pre-mod 7 (I think) there were times when the ZAX actually dropped below 500:1 on PC. The lowest I remember was like 485 or 489:1. And exchanging AD for Zen was instantaneous. That was years ago though.
  • minotaur2857minotaur2857 Posts: 1,122Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    krumple01 said:

    yes.. but zen was never worth 500 to 1 .. ever and yet people still sell zen.. so that argument is a bit futile.. simply put, people are spending less on the game atm..

    I dont blame them.. mod 16 is the biggest change they ever have done.. it makes mod 6 changes seem simplistic.

    There definitely will be some player loss, whether that in the end will impact them is uncertain at the moment.

    You obviously haven't been playing very long. Back during mod 11 and before that the Zen exchange use to be active where there was no backlog. Its because there was less AD in the game, just before they introduced salvaging. Salvaging caused the AD in the game to spike high which caused inflation making zen worth more than 500 ad per 1 zen. So you can't sat zen was "never" worth 500 ad, because you have no clue what you are talking about.

    Yup. I remember pre-mod 7 (I think) there were times when the ZAX actually dropped below 500:1 on PC. The lowest I remember was like 485 or 489:1. And exchanging AD for Zen was instantaneous. That was years ago though.
    Was around 270 in the VERY early days.
  • plasticbatplasticbat Posts: 5,701Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    krumple01 said:

    yes.. but zen was never worth 500 to 1 .. ever and yet people still sell zen.. so that argument is a bit futile.. simply put, people are spending less on the game atm..

    I dont blame them.. mod 16 is the biggest change they ever have done.. it makes mod 6 changes seem simplistic.

    There definitely will be some player loss, whether that in the end will impact them is uncertain at the moment.

    You obviously haven't been playing very long. Back during mod 11 and before that the Zen exchange use to be active where there was no backlog. Its because there was less AD in the game, just before they introduced salvaging. Salvaging caused the AD in the game to spike high which caused inflation making zen worth more than 500 ad per 1 zen. So you can't sat zen was "never" worth 500 ad, because you have no clue what you are talking about.

    Yup. I remember pre-mod 7 (I think) there were times when the ZAX actually dropped below 500:1 on PC. The lowest I remember was like 485 or 489:1. And exchanging AD for Zen was instantaneous. That was years ago though.
    Yes, that was mod 6. Many either left permanently or came back much later. The effect was their huge pool of AD deposit were parked and idle.
  • krumple01krumple01 Posts: 481Member Arc User
    havlocke said:

    Trading between players is just that. Something between players. You can't restrict that. The only thing they can do is remove the 500 to 1 cap on exchange And that could just destroy the economy even worse.

    Players who make this argument usually know little to nothing on what an economy is.

    If raising the cap would "destroy" the economy then wouldn't lowering the cap "improve" economy? Doesn't it stand to reason if one direction is bad then the other direction should improve right if your theory is right? So why not reduce the cap to 200 or 100? Wouldn't this make the economy boom?

    No, its because your theory that it would destroy the economy is totally wrong.

    The US government tries to do this same thing with restricting interest rates but artificially setting the cap so interest rates can't free float like they should.

    Here is the thing players are really good at finding out the worth of an item. Lets just use some theory here.

    If a player could sell zen for 2000 ad each would a player be willing to pay 2k ad for that 1 zen?

    Some might but some might not. Essentially what happens is the average player base will determine what they are willing to pay per zen. Currently players are not willing to SELL their zen for only 500 ad each. They are worth more.

    If the demand for Zen is very high but the price is artificially set lower than the value of zen the market will stagnate.

    I bet if they raised the cap to 2000 the realistic number would be less than that. I theorize that Zen is probably sitting around about 850 to 900 realistically. I could be wrong but that is my guess. It would in no way ruin the economy. This is just something ignorant players repeat over and over understanding nothing about how economies work.

    The reason the value of zen has increased is because the total over all pool of available AD as drastically increased. This was due to one specific factor that has been changed. One was all characters could refine 36k ad per day. So a player with 20 characters could potentially refine 36k ad each character making 720k ad each day just one player. That might sound impractical or unrealistic, however; many players did that. The players who didn't were stuck at 36k.. that is a huge margin between an AD farmer and a single character player. Cryptic solution was to make the account static cap 100k. This made it so there is no margin now unless the player is incapable of collecting 100k each day. However; players could technically get around this by having multiple accounts.

    The difference is in player perception though. From a player's perspective who only plays 1 character the cap seemed to of raised, going from 36k to 100k. This gives that kind of player the impression that MORE ad is going to be entering the game. However; from the perspective of a player with multiple characters its actually a reduction in AD income if they had more than 3 characters that they farmed ad with under the old system.

    I bet the majority of players were the single character players who saw the cap change from 36k to 100k and only the small group of 20 character accounts were driven out of the system reducing their effort to 100k. There was no incentive to have 20 characters to farm AD with and now those characters became a liability instead of an asset. The only players now who have 20 characters is because they want to play that many but I don't understand why they would. 8 at most seems logical, having more makes no sense to me.

    But having 8 characters at end game that need a healthy income of AD to support their gear makes a massive drain on the account. You cant really fuel 8 characters unless you are trading on the auction house. You wouldn't be able to support 8 characters realistically on refining rough AD alone.

    Right now if you wanted 1000 zen through the exchange you are paying 500k

    If it were raised to 2000 ad per 1 zen and lets say theoretically was trading at the new cap.

    Trading for 1000 zen at 2000 ad per 1 zen would be 2m ad

    The difference between 500k and 2m is only 1.5m.

    That is NOTHING in comparison to what the AH trades most high end high valued items for.

    If they were to increase the cap to 2k I doubt it would hit the cap. I honestly don't think zen is worth 2k ad per 1 zen but I am 100% certain its worth more than 500 ad per 1 zen.

    I bet you 1 billion AD if they were to raise the cap to 2k the exchange would begin to move and pick up activity and it would in no way ruin the economy.

    As it currently is, no one is trading zen for ad.


  • greywyndgreywynd Posts: 3,433Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    The lack of trading has more to do with the m16 announcements than people deciding 1 zen is worth more than 500 AD.
    Better to be a white knight than a knight with no honor.

    With your shield or on it.
  • krumple01krumple01 Posts: 481Member Arc User
    edited March 24
    greywynd said:

    The lack of trading has more to do with the m16 announcements than people deciding 1 zen is worth more than 500 AD.

    If you had read any of the other remarks you might not have said this. Ive been watching the exchange very closely for a long time. The most recent mod 12 exchange got down to 7m backlog. That was the lowest it has been since. It has been slowly increasing however each new mod release brings in a few cash cow players who trade a bit of Zen. Mod 16 will move the exchange a little too. All mods do.

    It has everything, 100% to do with the fact that zen is worth far more than 500 ad each.

    Just in the last 3 weeks the exchange had gone from 28m up to 35m. Thats one of the fastest growths it has had in a very long time.

    I bet you 1 billion ad that if they were to raise the cap from 500 to 2000 it would cause the exchange to start moving. 1 Zen is worth more than 500 ad. A huge majority of players know this.

    Do the math on the return.

    You want to sell 100 zen because you want some ad. The max you can get is 500 ad per 1 of your zen.

    You will get 50k ad for 100 zen. Its not worth it. What are you gunna buy for 50k? 9 pres wards?



  • havlockehavlocke Posts: 194Member Arc User
    krumple01 said:

    havlocke said:

    Trading between players is just that. Something between players. You can't restrict that. The only thing they can do is remove the 500 to 1 cap on exchange And that could just destroy the economy even worse.

    Players who make this argument usually know little to nothing on what an economy is.

    If raising the cap would "destroy" the economy then wouldn't lowering the cap "improve" economy? Doesn't it stand to reason if one direction is bad then the other direction should improve right if your theory is right? So why not reduce the cap to 200 or 100? Wouldn't this make the economy boom?

    No, its because your theory that it would destroy the economy is totally wrong.

    The US government tries to do this same thing with restricting interest rates but artificially setting the cap so interest rates can't free float like they should.

    Here is the thing players are really good at finding out the worth of an item. Lets just use some theory here.

    If a player could sell zen for 2000 ad each would a player be willing to pay 2k ad for that 1 zen?

    Some might but some might not. Essentially what happens is the average player base will determine what they are willing to pay per zen. Currently players are not willing to SELL their zen for only 500 ad each. They are worth more.

    If the demand for Zen is very high but the price is artificially set lower than the value of zen the market will stagnate.

    I bet if they raised the cap to 2000 the realistic number would be less than that. I theorize that Zen is probably sitting around about 850 to 900 realistically. I could be wrong but that is my guess. It would in no way ruin the economy. This is just something ignorant players repeat over and over understanding nothing about how economies work.

    The reason the value of zen has increased is because the total over all pool of available AD as drastically increased. This was due to one specific factor that has been changed. One was all characters could refine 36k ad per day. So a player with 20 characters could potentially refine 36k ad each character making 720k ad each day just one player. That might sound impractical or unrealistic, however; many players did that. The players who didn't were stuck at 36k.. that is a huge margin between an AD farmer and a single character player. Cryptic solution was to make the account static cap 100k. This made it so there is no margin now unless the player is incapable of collecting 100k each day. However; players could technically get around this by having multiple accounts.

    The difference is in player perception though. From a player's perspective who only plays 1 character the cap seemed to of raised, going from 36k to 100k. This gives that kind of player the impression that MORE ad is going to be entering the game. However; from the perspective of a player with multiple characters its actually a reduction in AD income if they had more than 3 characters that they farmed ad with under the old system.

    I bet the majority of players were the single character players who saw the cap change from 36k to 100k and only the small group of 20 character accounts were driven out of the system reducing their effort to 100k. There was no incentive to have 20 characters to farm AD with and now those characters became a liability instead of an asset. The only players now who have 20 characters is because they want to play that many but I don't understand why they would. 8 at most seems logical, having more makes no sense to me.

    But having 8 characters at end game that need a healthy income of AD to support their gear makes a massive drain on the account. You cant really fuel 8 characters unless you are trading on the auction house. You wouldn't be able to support 8 characters realistically on refining rough AD alone.

    Right now if you wanted 1000 zen through the exchange you are paying 500k

    If it were raised to 2000 ad per 1 zen and lets say theoretically was trading at the new cap.

    Trading for 1000 zen at 2000 ad per 1 zen would be 2m ad

    The difference between 500k and 2m is only 1.5m.

    That is NOTHING in comparison to what the AH trades most high end high valued items for.

    If they were to increase the cap to 2k I doubt it would hit the cap. I honestly don't think zen is worth 2k ad per 1 zen but I am 100% certain its worth more than 500 ad per 1 zen.

    I bet you 1 billion AD if they were to raise the cap to 2k the exchange would begin to move and pick up activity and it would in no way ruin the economy.

    As it currently is, no one is trading zen for ad.


    ROFL, ok, consider me chastised.
  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Posts: 662Member Arc User
    edited March 24
    krumple01 said:


    Players who make this argument usually know little to nothing on what an economy is.

    If raising the cap would "destroy" the economy then wouldn't lowering the cap "improve" economy? Doesn't it stand to reason if one direction is bad then the other direction should improve right if your theory is right? So why not reduce the cap to 200 or 100? Wouldn't this make the economy boom?

    No, its because your theory that it would destroy the economy is totally wrong.

    The US government tries to do this same thing with restricting interest rates but artificially setting the cap so interest rates can't free float like they should.

    Here is the thing players are really good at finding out the worth of an item. Lets just use some theory here.

    If a player could sell zen for 2000 ad each would a player be willing to pay 2k ad for that 1 zen?

    Some might but some might not. Essentially what happens is the average player base will determine what they are willing to pay per zen. Currently players are not willing to SELL their zen for only 500 ad each. They are worth more.

    If the demand for Zen is very high but the price is artificially set lower than the value of zen the market will stagnate.

    I bet if they raised the cap to 2000 the realistic number would be less than that. I theorize that Zen is probably sitting around about 850 to 900 realistically. I could be wrong but that is my guess. It would in no way ruin the economy. This is just something ignorant players repeat over and over understanding nothing about how economies work.

    The reason the value of zen has increased is because the total over all pool of available AD as drastically increased. This was due to one specific factor that has been changed. One was all characters could refine 36k ad per day. So a player with 20 characters could potentially refine 36k ad each character making 720k ad each day just one player. That might sound impractical or unrealistic, however; many players did that. The players who didn't were stuck at 36k.. that is a huge margin between an AD farmer and a single character player. Cryptic solution was to make the account static cap 100k. This made it so there is no margin now unless the player is incapable of collecting 100k each day. However; players could technically get around this by having multiple accounts.

    The difference is in player perception though. From a player's perspective who only plays 1 character the cap seemed to of raised, going from 36k to 100k. This gives that kind of player the impression that MORE ad is going to be entering the game. However; from the perspective of a player with multiple characters its actually a reduction in AD income if they had more than 3 characters that they farmed ad with under the old system.

    I bet the majority of players were the single character players who saw the cap change from 36k to 100k and only the small group of 20 character accounts were driven out of the system reducing their effort to 100k. There was no incentive to have 20 characters to farm AD with and now those characters became a liability instead of an asset. The only players now who have 20 characters is because they want to play that many but I don't understand why they would. 8 at most seems logical, having more makes no sense to me.

    But having 8 characters at end game that need a healthy income of AD to support their gear makes a massive drain on the account. You cant really fuel 8 characters unless you are trading on the auction house. You wouldn't be able to support 8 characters realistically on refining rough AD alone.

    Right now if you wanted 1000 zen through the exchange you are paying 500k

    If it were raised to 2000 ad per 1 zen and lets say theoretically was trading at the new cap.

    Trading for 1000 zen at 2000 ad per 1 zen would be 2m ad

    The difference between 500k and 2m is only 1.5m.

    That is NOTHING in comparison to what the AH trades most high end high valued items for.

    If they were to increase the cap to 2k I doubt it would hit the cap. I honestly don't think zen is worth 2k ad per 1 zen but I am 100% certain its worth more than 500 ad per 1 zen.

    I bet you 1 billion AD if they were to raise the cap to 2k the exchange would begin to move and pick up activity and it would in no way ruin the economy.

    As it currently is, no one is trading zen for ad.

    The only thing you are arguing for here is that it exists a natural balance point between supply and demand that is higher than 500. Conceded.

    The issue you fail to argue is that Cryptic have concluded it is for the better of the game to have max Zax exchange rate set lower than the natural balance point. By having a lower cap on the Zax exchange rate they make Zen items more available to people at the expense of those that buy Zen and sell it on the Zax. This covers very important items like Coal and Pres wards, where the Zax rate decides the price for those on the AH.

    * Cryptic probably have a very good statistics based insight into how the economy *actually* is working
    * Cryptic have experience with what happens when cap is raised from the Russian server
    * Cryptic probably have way more experience in operating MMORPGs that the OP

    Very few societies(if any) allow completely unfettered capitalism. The governments usually regulate the markets to support overriding social concerns. The limitations on the Zax rate is the same thing.

  • krumple01krumple01 Posts: 481Member Arc User
    edited March 24
    havlocke said:


    ROFL, ok, consider me chastised.


    I don't honestly really expect you to understand, very few people understand economics. The point is, players make a lot more AD off buying zen and using that zen to get packs and selling items on the AH rather than through the exchange. They make more and have more incentive to go that route because zen is worth far more than 500 ad per one zen.

    So any argument about raising the cap from 500 to 2000 would destroy the economy, is missing the point that players already make more from selling zen items. The economy would already be ruined since they already make a lot of AD off zen items on the AH.
  • krumple01krumple01 Posts: 481Member Arc User


    * Cryptic have experience with what happens when cap is raised from the Russian server

    There could be other factors if the Russian server economy is damaged by having a higher cap on the exchange.

    * Is it easier to obtain rough AD on the Russian server than the US main server?
    * Is the cap higher on refining rough AD per day on the Russian Server?
    * How large is the active player base vs the US main server?
    * The cost of purchasing Zen, is it equal to that of the US?

    If its cheaper to purchase zen on the Russian server it could easily be a factor that makes comparing the two economies much harder. Just changing one factor can explain any instability outside blaming the exchange cap for the reason.

    You can't just say the higher exchange cap is the cause for any unstable economy if there are other factors. But I really don't expect you to really consider these other factors since you already use the exchange cap as the cause.

  • wintersmokewintersmoke Posts: 1,247Member Arc User
    krumple01 said:

    havlocke said:


    ROFL, ok, consider me chastised.

    I don't honestly really expect you to understand, very few people understand economics. The point is, players make a lot more AD off buying zen and using that zen to get packs and selling items on the AH rather than through the exchange. They make more and have more incentive to go that route because zen is worth far more than 500 ad per one zen.

    So any argument about raising the cap from 500 to 2000 would destroy the economy, is missing the point that players already make more from selling zen items. The economy would already be ruined since they already make a lot of AD off zen items on the AH.

    If you think you can make something more valuable, by making it less rare, we are not the only ones that do not understand how economics works. Your Zen ma be worth more than 500 AD. To you. My AD is not worth less than 1/500th of a Zen, to me.
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