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My money was wasted?

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  • cdnbisoncdnbison Posts: 774Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    huijian said:

    Lets put it this way, the mod16 preview is such a disaster they actually had to do contest giveaways on reddit to solicit positive feedback.

    Really? Because I've been over to preview, and really like a lot of the changes I'm seeing. Are there things that need to be addressed? Absolutely - and the devs are making their presence known in the preview forums, and working on fixing what needed to be fixed. Not everyone agrees with every decision that has been made, but overall, the impression I get from players (that have actually put some time in on preview) is positive.

    Conversely, a lot of the negative reaction I see if from people who often haven't even logged in to Preview but "have heard that" (something), and without even looking have decided that change is bad. Some actually have logged in to look around, and are upset that their power level is reduced, and that will somehow reduce their fun, or are upset that they will no longer be able to chain encounters in a near never ending stream The very small minority have actually put a decent amount of time in on Preview, and understand the logic behind the changes.
  • greywyndgreywynd Posts: 4,021Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    huijian said:

    Lets put it this way, the mod16 preview is such a disaster they actually had to do contest giveaways on reddit to solicit positive feedback.

    Contest giveaways are a fairly common thing.
    Better to be a white knight than a knight with no honor.

    With your shield or on it.
  • draugkirdraugkir Posts: 99Member Arc User
    edited March 21
    When you spend cash getting a service or a good from a company, better check first and carefully the company.

    What they are doing at the moment will speak a lot for the way people will see Perfect World and Cryptic in the future.
  • plasticbatplasticbat Posts: 6,272Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited March 21
    draugkir said:

    When you spend cash getting a service or a good from a company, better check first and carefully the company.

    What they are doing at the moment will speak a lot for the way people will see Perfect World and Cryptic in the future.

    Yes, everyone should always be careful but what they are doing at the moment is more or less the same as what they have been doing for years. The difference is the impact that affected those negatively in the past probably left and are not speaking now. Personally, I don't see a slight difference between now and then. I am not saying this is better or worse, right or wrong. Just, relatively, it is indifferent.
  • draugkirdraugkir Posts: 99Member Arc User

    draugkir said:

    When you spend cash getting a service or a good from a company, better check first and carefully the company.

    What they are doing at the moment will speak a lot for the way people will see Perfect World and Cryptic in the future.

    Yes, everyone should always be careful but what they are doing at the moment is more or less the same as what they have been doing for years. The difference is the impact that affected those negatively in the past probably left and are not speaking now. Personally, I don't see a slight difference between now and then. I am not saying this is better or worse, right or wrong. Just, relatively, it is indifferent.
    You wont see much diference. Their income values will.
  • plasticbatplasticbat Posts: 6,272Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited March 21
    draugkir said:

    draugkir said:

    When you spend cash getting a service or a good from a company, better check first and carefully the company.

    What they are doing at the moment will speak a lot for the way people will see Perfect World and Cryptic in the future.

    Yes, everyone should always be careful but what they are doing at the moment is more or less the same as what they have been doing for years. The difference is the impact that affected those negatively in the past probably left and are not speaking now. Personally, I don't see a slight difference between now and then. I am not saying this is better or worse, right or wrong. Just, relatively, it is indifferent.
    You wont see much diference. Their income values will.
    I was talking about what they are doing now is indifferent to what they have been doing in the past.
    Every time, the same comment repeats.
    Let me count and I probably miss a lot.
    The first DC change, mod 6, professional asset pack, SKT, rank 14, ...
  • motu999#9953 motu999 Posts: 98Member Arc User
    edited March 21
    Legally Cryptic is entitled to invalidate everything we have, because we - as paying or non-paying customers - own nothing.

    But that is not the point.
    The point is, that Cryptic needs paying customers.

    You can screw your paying customers, from a legal point of view.
    From a business point of view it is not a good idea, because a screwed customer will not be very forthcoming to spend more money.
    Maybe you can attract new customers to replace the customers you screwed.
    But you will gradually build a reputation that makes it rather difficult to earn money in the long term.

    It is not a matter of legality, it is a matter of mutual trust.

    I do not dispute that the game is in a poor state and a major overhaul is due.
    The question is, can we TRUST Cryptic to succeed in the effort?
    Can we trust them to make every reasonable effort within their responsibility,
    and can we trust them to treat the playtesters with the respect they deserve?
    After all, the playtesters are giving up a large portion of their free time for no pay, just to help the devs to be more successful.

    I must say, I am beginning to doubt it.

    If you start a beta-test for a major revision of your product, the testers expect it to be generally functional, with the occasional (not entirely obvious) bugs that are unavoidable for any complex software.

    But this did not happen. MOD 16 (EDIT: Preview) is a total mess, with 1000+ OBVIOUS bugs all over the place. Often it is not even possible to guess what the intended functionality is.

    Just take scaling, a major new functionality of the new mod. Scaling is totally broken in practically all areas. There is no feedback to the playtesters. Some (near-bis) players find almost all content "too easy". Other (entry level) players find almost all content "undoable", despite the fact that the content is supposedly designed for their level (IL).
    And then there are outliers all over the place, where even near-bis players get one-shotted, and also outliers in the other direction, where parts of the "non-doable" content are a joke for the lowest IL players (too easy). It is obvious that the devs have not clue, how scaling is supposed to work. There is not even a general outline of a general strategy.

    For scaling I would have expected, that the instances that we are supposed to test have been - at least - looked at once. This does not seem to be the case. If - as the devs told us repeatedly - MOD16 is to reduce the sad fact, that players tend to be in just two states ("fully healed" or "dead") and MOD 16 is to make "healing more meaningful", it is rather obvious that the instances that we are supposed to test must fulfill at least two criteria:

    First, the mobs may not hit so hard, that the typical player who is supposed to run these instances, takes more than 50% of his health in a single hit. If all entry-level players (with the lowest IL listed for the instance) get one-shotted all over the place, if even the near-bis players get one-shotted, it is rather obvious that no one actually cared to look at the instance before it was delivered to us for playtesting. Or if the instance was looked at, there has been no plan.

    Second, if healing is to become "more meaningful" in MOD 16, the frequency of the hits (from bosses and mobs) must be adjusted in such a way, that healers can keep up. Assuming the devs actually did a first pass through the instances that we are supposed to playtest, I would have expected as a minimum effort that the dev responsible looks at the hardest hitting attacks of the hardest hitting boss, and adjusts the time interval between two such attacks, so that the healer can actually heal the ~50% health taken in a single attack.

    But none of the instances I (or others) playtested even came close to fulfill the above mentioned criteria. Even worse, when near-bis players with 10 times the effective health (taking their capped 80% defense into account) of the entry-level players complained, that the instance was "too easy" - DESPITE THE FACT THAT THEY WERE ONE-SHOTTED WHEN THEY MADE A SINGLE MISTAKE - the devs reacted to make the instance more difficult. When then - rather predictably - a full group of players with an IL ~2-4k above the minimum IL reported, that the instances was not doable for the full group of players with the typical IL expected for the instance, we heard nothing, except the general remark that the pendulum may swing back and forth in the attempts to balance the content.

    Scaling is just one area, that is plagued with numerous OBVIOUS bugs. Porting over the powers of companions and mounts is similarly plagued by numerous OBVIOUS bugs, omissions or random replacements without any perceivable plan. These OBVIOUS bugs should have been removed BEFORE playtesting. Most - if not all - of these bugs could have been easily removed, if the devs had gone systematically through the changes - just once and with some notion of a plan.

    EDIT: Spelling errors corrected
    Post edited by motu999#9953 on
  • plasticbatplasticbat Posts: 6,272Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited March 21


    But this did not happen. MOD 16 is a total mess, with 1000+ OBVIOUS bugs all over the place. Often it is not even possible to guess what the intended functionality is.

    Mod 16 is not yet available as a release version. Obviously, there are bugs. That is the purpose of preview and that is why there is not yet a release day.
  • motu999#9953 motu999 Posts: 98Member Arc User


    But this did not happen. MOD 16 is a total mess, with 1000+ OBVIOUS bugs all over the place. Often it is not even possible to guess what the intended functionality is.

    Mod 16 is not yet available as a release version. Obviously, there are bugs. That is the purpose of preview and that is why there is not yet a release day.
    So you think it is acceptable and shows respect towards the playtesters, to deliver a product for beta-testing (and this is what I was talking about, not the final release), that contains 1000+ OBVIOUS bugs, that could (and should) have been eliminated by a single systematic pass through your beta-test version. Interesting.

    I find it a waste of time of the playtesters to point out numerous OBVIOUS bugs, that are plain to see even at a very superficial look. I am a software developer myself and it is totally obvious, that it is faster - even more efficient for me - to remove these bugs before I deliver the product to the beta-testers.
  • plasticbatplasticbat Posts: 6,272Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited March 21


    But this did not happen. MOD 16 is a total mess, with 1000+ OBVIOUS bugs all over the place. Often it is not even possible to guess what the intended functionality is.

    Mod 16 is not yet available as a release version. Obviously, there are bugs. That is the purpose of preview and that is why there is not yet a release day.
    So you think it is acceptable and shows respect towards the playtesters, to deliver a product for beta-testing (and this is what I was talking about, not the final release), that contains 1000+ OBVIOUS bugs, that could (and should) have been eliminated by a single systematic pass through your beta-test version. Interesting.

    I find it a waste of time of the playtesters to point out numerous OBVIOUS bugs, that are plain to see even at a very superficial look. I am a software developer myself and it is totally obvious, that it is faster - even more efficient for me - to remove these bugs before I deliver the product to the beta-testers.
    The purpose of preview is to find bug. You don't have to go there and I did not go there knowingly whatever I found will not be final and will be subject to change.

    Yes, it is acceptable to me because I know what it is about and avoided it. By the way, I am a software developer for 30 years already.
  • motu999#9953 motu999 Posts: 98Member Arc User


    But this did not happen. MOD 16 is a total mess, with 1000+ OBVIOUS bugs all over the place. Often it is not even possible to guess what the intended functionality is.

    Mod 16 is not yet available as a release version. Obviously, there are bugs. That is the purpose of preview and that is why there is not yet a release day.
    So you think it is acceptable and shows respect towards the playtesters, to deliver a product for beta-testing (and this is what I was talking about, not the final release), that contains 1000+ OBVIOUS bugs, that could (and should) have been eliminated by a single systematic pass through your beta-test version. Interesting.

    I find it a waste of time of the playtesters to point out numerous OBVIOUS bugs, that are plain to see even at a very superficial look. I am a software developer myself and it is totally obvious, that it is faster - even more efficient for me - to remove these bugs before I deliver the product to the beta-testers.
    The purpose of preview is to find bug. You don't have to go there and I did not go there knowingly whatever I found will not be final and will be subject to change.

    Yes, it is acceptable to me because I know what it is about and avoided it. By the way, I am a software developer for 30 years already.
    As a software developer, I do not need the beta-testers to point out the bugs, that are obvious at a superficial look for me, the developer. I look at the (unfinished) product, I see the bug, I remove it. That is the most efficient way to deal with obvious bugs that are plain for me to see. I do not need extra written reports on obvious stuff, that I can see immediately, if I just care to look. It is a waste of time for the beta-testers. It is a waste of time for them to write reports on the obvious. It is even a waste of time on my part, to read a bug report on something, that can be identified by a single look and fixed without any report.

    Beta-testers are supposed to find the bugs that are not obvious, bugs that the developers missed DESPITE looking at their product in internal test runs. That is a reasonable division of labor. Not looking at all at the product you delivered for beta-testing and waiting for the reports on obvious bugs to flood your desk, does not only show a lack of respect for pay-free work done by the beta-testers, it even reduces my own efficiency.
  • plasticbatplasticbat Posts: 6,272Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User



    Beta-testers are supposed to find the bugs that are not obvious, bugs that the developers missed DESPITE looking at their product in internal test runs. That is a reasonable division of labor. Not looking at all at the product you delivered for beta-testing and waiting for the reports on obvious bugs to flood your desk, does not only show a lack of respect for pay-free work done by the beta-testers, it even reduces my own efficiency.

    This, I agree with you. That is why I did not even try because this has been their practice. It is not something new comparing with the past. If I have to compare, the current beta testing is actually an improvement comparing with the past.
  • motu999#9953 motu999 Posts: 98Member Arc User



    Beta-testers are supposed to find the bugs that are not obvious, bugs that the developers missed DESPITE looking at their product in internal test runs. That is a reasonable division of labor. Not looking at all at the product you delivered for beta-testing and waiting for the reports on obvious bugs to flood your desk, does not only show a lack of respect for pay-free work done by the beta-testers, it even reduces my own efficiency.

    This, I agree with you. That is why I did not even try because this has been their practice. It is not something new comparing with the past. If I have to compare, the current beta testing is actually an improvement comparing with the past.
    Ah, that puts your comments in another perspective. I am rather new and this is the first time for me to look at the preview server. Essentially, what you are saying is: Given their record, it is a better (more efficient) use of my personal time not to look at preview at all. I can agree with that.
  • minotaur2857minotaur2857 Posts: 1,138Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited March 21
    cdnbison said:

    huijian said:

    Lets put it this way, the mod16 preview is such a disaster they actually had to do contest giveaways on reddit to solicit positive feedback.

    Really? Because I've been over to preview, and really like a lot of the changes I'm seeing. Are there things that need to be addressed? Absolutely - and the devs are making their presence known in the preview forums, and working on fixing what needed to be fixed. Not everyone agrees with every decision that has been made, but overall, the impression I get from players (that have actually put some time in on preview) is positive.

    Conversely, a lot of the negative reaction I see if from people who often haven't even logged in to Preview but "have heard that" (something), and without even looking have decided that change is bad. Some actually have logged in to look around, and are upset that their power level is reduced, and that will somehow reduce their fun, or are upset that they will no longer be able to chain encounters in a near never ending stream The very small minority have actually put a decent amount of time in on Preview, and understand the logic behind the changes.
    Nice try, I've played my 4 favourite characters on preview, one is COMPLETELY unplayable, but that's because of bugs, hoping will be fixed tomorrow (Combat HR), 2 more are playable but no fun whatsoever (DPS GF/CW), and one is just playable but less fun than M15 (Barb). I understand the logic behind the changes, but think they destroy any connection between the game and D&D (35 year player, building the character is a large part of the fun and I build way more than I play) and all the fun of playing solo. They also fix issues in content I don't do while messing up the content I do.

    The preview and forum communities are not reflective of the large more casual community out there in the live game, for whom this is not good. Taking 4 times as long to do the same content solo is not progress, particularly when you're doing stuff on pretty low geared alts to keep your guilds moving.

    There are some really nice QoL improvements, but playability is more important.
  • kreatyvekreatyve Posts: 9,835Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Community Moderator
    huijian said:

    Lets put it this way, the mod16 preview is such a disaster they actually had to do contest giveaways on reddit to solicit positive feedback.

    Not hardly. That was MY idea. I was not asked to do the contest. It was my own idea. People just don't seem to understand the reasons why I wanted to do it. Go look at Reddit now. The Rage thread is up.
    My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox
    Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official.
    Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
    kuI2v8l.png
  • spidey#3367 spidey Posts: 399Member Arc User
    cdnbison said:

    but overall, the impression I get from players (that have actually put some time in on preview) is positive.

    Nice try. Like julia did when she said "90% of the players are happy with mod 16". But if you dig a bit at YT/twitch etc. you will find some polls from active players on live AND on ptr. I dont know where julia got this number, but you dont find any number like this in any poll.
    I hope mod 16 will be released at the end of the year and when they play with from the players perpective. Atm you can read a lot " our devs thought this would be good"...or "our team thought this would be funny". And everytime i read those things i know they messed up again.
    Just listen to the players and listen good. Thats all i hope for the sake of the game.

  • wylonuswylonus Posts: 2,339Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    reddit is an ugly site to read, nearly unrestricted flame baits, not for 10 yrs old kids to read.
  • plasticbatplasticbat Posts: 6,272Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited March 21


    I hope mod 16 will be released at the end of the year and when they play with from the players perpective. Atm you can read a lot " our devs thought this would be good"...or "our team thought this would be funny". And everytime i read those things i know they messed up again.

    If mod 16 is released at the end of the year, the game will be toasted by then.

    The live one is pretty much stalled at the moment.

    People who hate mod 16 probably left by now.

    People who like mod 16 has nothing much to do in the meanwhile.

    People who is wait and see is 'wait and see' and has nothing much to do in the meanwhile. They probably move to another game and then may come back to see if they can deal with mod 16 when mod 16 is released. The longer they stay in another game, the less chance they will come back.

    The one who is still actively playing and investing are mostly those who do not know about mod 16 but this group is smaller and smaller every day.

    Most will not invest in grinding and Zen in live. Cryptic may give certain promotion/sales to get something.

    I don't think they can afford to release mod 16 at the end of the year which will be worse than releasing a bad mod 16 for them.
  • dread4moordread4moor Posts: 1,005Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    TLDR/FAQ

    Q:Do you own your MMO stuff?
    A: No.

    Q:Can Cryptic legally change or delete your stuff at will?
    A:Yes.

    Q: Morally, is that a HAMSTER-move on their part?
    A: Yeah, kinda. They have the right. But... Yeah. HAMSTER-move.

    Q: Does this happen in other MMOs?

    A: Yes, but not usually so acutely.

    Q: What should a disgruntled player do about it?
    A: Two options only
    A1) Preserve your "investment" by finding a fun playstyle on preview and giving feedback to maximize your Mod16 enjoyment.
    A2) Transition to a new game... or, you know, real life.

    The Took is going with option 1 for now. We will see.
    image
    Contemplative Took
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • wylonuswylonus Posts: 2,339Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    let make rally call, "Remember the Legendary Winter Festival Fishing Rods!"

    i am sure new players dont know what we mean, not knowing it was taken away and it was heavy invested.
  • draugkirdraugkir Posts: 99Member Arc User


    But this did not happen. MOD 16 is a total mess, with 1000+ OBVIOUS bugs all over the place. Often it is not even possible to guess what the intended functionality is.

    Mod 16 is not yet available as a release version. Obviously, there are bugs. That is the purpose of preview and that is why there is not yet a release day.
    We are like.. 1 month away from mod 16 going live + 1 week or less.
  • dread4moordread4moor Posts: 1,005Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    wylonus said:

    let make rally call, "Remember the Legendary Winter Festival Fishing Rods!"

    image
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • plasticbatplasticbat Posts: 6,272Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited March 21
    draugkir said:


    But this did not happen. MOD 16 is a total mess, with 1000+ OBVIOUS bugs all over the place. Often it is not even possible to guess what the intended functionality is.

    Mod 16 is not yet available as a release version. Obviously, there are bugs. That is the purpose of preview and that is why there is not yet a release day.
    We are like.. 1 month away from mod 16 going live + 1 week or less.
    I do not aware the release date is already announced. At least, they have not brought up the "doomsday clock" countdown counter.
    Post edited by plasticbat on
  • wylonuswylonus Posts: 2,339Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    dread, it happen with WotC with 3 MtG online card games, twice they put up new game and twice they pull plug, and put Planewalkers, knowing and expecting another unpluging soon after other players invested and most of online veterans are wary of another baits, they hate to lost all they invested. most dont come back, calling another scam. just wait and watch when Planewalkers go down in favor of that upcoming new "Arc" MtG format.
  • greywyndgreywynd Posts: 4,021Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    wylonus said:

    let make rally call, "Remember the Legendary Winter Festival Fishing Rods!"

    i am sure new players dont know what we mean, not knowing it was taken away and it was heavy invested.

    I had 9 of them. It didn't hurt my feelings any.
    Better to be a white knight than a knight with no honor.

    With your shield or on it.
  • plasticbatplasticbat Posts: 6,272Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    greywynd said:

    wylonus said:

    let make rally call, "Remember the Legendary Winter Festival Fishing Rods!"

    i am sure new players dont know what we mean, not knowing it was taken away and it was heavy invested.

    I had 9 of them. It didn't hurt my feelings any.
    I also don't understand why it was considered "heavy invested". Was that hard at all?
  • kemnimtarkaskemnimtarkas Posts: 665Member Arc User
    edited March 21
    nemesrich said:

    I don't like the changes that will be made in MOD 16 to the classes I invested a lot of money in and I don't want to play them. Maybe I could play another classes but I don't really want to start over and definitely don't want to invest money into them.
    I will feel to be robbed if mod 16 will be introduced without the chance at least to choose another class for my characters.
    Will there be any chance for it?


    It's always been a case of caveat emptor with Zen purchases.

    Cryptic has a history of selling things in the Zen store that they know will soon become obsolete or degraded because of changes being implemented in the game - (see Black Ice Gear Zen sale right before the release of Mod 6 - which made said gear utterly worthless).

    The company reps do not apologize or even acknowledge this after the fact.

    If you buy anything with Zen in game - you need to accept that whatever you buy has a shelf life. Cryptic is not in the habit of advertising expiration dates on the 'digital merchandise' they "sell".

    And the same rule applies to anything you purchase in the Wondrous Bazaar or the Trade Bar store.

  • nemesrichnemesrich Posts: 58Member Arc User

    draugkir said:

    draugkir said:

    When you spend cash getting a service or a good from a company, better check first and carefully the company.

    What they are doing at the moment will speak a lot for the way people will see Perfect World and Cryptic in the future.

    Yes, everyone should always be careful but what they are doing at the moment is more or less the same as what they have been doing for years. The difference is the impact that affected those negatively in the past probably left and are not speaking now. Personally, I don't see a slight difference between now and then. I am not saying this is better or worse, right or wrong. Just, relatively, it is indifferent.
    You wont see much diference. Their income values will.
    I was talking about what they are doing now is indifferent to what they have been doing in the past.
    Every time, the same comment repeats.
    Let me count and I probably miss a lot.
    The first DC change, mod 6, professional asset pack, SKT, rank 14, ...
    So far Neverwinter could stay alive because it was unique amongst the wide selections of MMOs mainly because of the classes' playstyle. In mod 16 NO will become an average MMO with a boring class playstyle. Not hard to guess what will happen.
  • wintersmokewintersmoke Posts: 1,388Member Arc User
    kreatyve said:

    huijian said:

    Lets put it this way, the mod16 preview is such a disaster they actually had to do contest giveaways on reddit to solicit positive feedback.

    Not hardly. That was MY idea. I was not asked to do the contest. It was my own idea. People just don't seem to understand the reasons why I wanted to do it. Go look at Reddit now. The Rage thread is up.
    No good deed goes unpunished o.O
  • greywyndgreywynd Posts: 4,021Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    draugkir said:



    We are like.. 1 month away from mod 16 going live + 1 week or less.

    I do not aware the release date is already announced. At least, they have not brought up the "doomsday clock" countdown counter.
    People look at the calendar and see all the stuff piled up on the 11th of April and assume.
    Better to be a white knight than a knight with no honor.

    With your shield or on it.
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