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Attribute Reroll

krumple01krumple01 Posts: 481Member Arc User
I haven't done much searching on the topic of Attribute scores and if we will get a chance to change them come mod 16 so forgive me if I am wrong here.

But for the love of Selune please, oh please allow us to reroll our attributes. If the attribute scores are changed and impact the character differently. For example if intelligence is more helpful to a cleric in mod 16 but when we made the character wisdom was chosen an we had intelligence as the lowest attribute then the character is no longer ideal to the new mod. So please, please, please give us attribute reroll.

Thank you,

Comments

  • vendoodvendood Posts: 63Member Arc User
    edited March 12
    In Mod 16, each class has one and only one set of attributes. There are no character rolls. All clerics get the same stats, all rogues get the same stats, all fighters get the same stats. You then apply your racial stats. That is all. (To the best of my knowledge)

    Cryptic has decided for you what your stats will be, and you will like it. Or else.
  • adinosiiadinosii Posts: 3,468Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited March 12
    vendood said:

    In Mod 16, each class has one and only one set of attributes. There are no character rolls. All clerics get the same stats, all rogues get the same stats, all fighters get the same stats. You then apply your racial stats. That is all. (To the best of my knowledge)

    Yes, that's it, pretty much....you see, they obviously don't think players can be trusted to make intelligent choices, so the freedom to pick your stats is being taken away.

    Actually, the default stats are pretty decent for all classes from a traditional D&D perspective, but people dislike being treated like [HAMSTERS].

    Thngs get really bad, however, when you consider another change that was made, namely that the different initial ability rolls have the same effects now for all classes. Those effects are decent for some classes, like Fighters and Wizards, but other classes get completely [HAMSTERED], Clerics worst of all. They automatically get assigned WIS as the highest stat, with STR and CHA as secondary. Guess what. WIS doesn't do [HAMSTER] for Clerics and STR boosts melee damage.

    If this [HAMSTER] change is allowed to go live, Clerics will want INT, CON and CHA, which makes absolutely no sense from a D&D perspective.

    I really hope this gets fixed/reverted.
    Waiting to see how bad things will be.
  • nunya#5309 nunya Posts: 933Member Arc User
    Well, that answers that question for me. I've been wondering about this since I was on preview on 1 March. I was so disgusted by the changes that I haven't been back to preview since, and my time playing NW has diminished from around 20 hours per week to about 2 hours per week. I spend enough time online to tend SH structures about three times per day, tend professions, do a couple or three invocations per day, and maybe run random dungeons with my wife on Saturday and Sunday*.

    I just haven't been able to muster the motivation for anything else, and I'm waiting to see what this is like when it finally goes live. Our mains are warlocks and if they're not as much fun to play after spending some time adapting to the change, then I'll just craft up a bunch of crates of astral diamonds for my alliance, drop a bunch of gold in the guild bank, and assign a new guild leader. Either way, I'm not spending one red cent on this game ever again.

    *Running random dungeons is not guaranteed.
  • callumf#9018 callumf Posts: 941Member Arc User

    Well, that answers that question for me. I've been wondering about this since I was on preview on 1 March. I was so disgusted by the changes that I haven't been back to preview since, and my time playing NW has diminished from around 20 hours per week to about 2 hours per week. I spend enough time online to tend SH structures about three times per day, tend professions, do a couple or three invocations per day, and maybe run random dungeons with my wife on Saturday and Sunday*.

    I just haven't been able to muster the motivation for anything else, and I'm waiting to see what this is like when it finally goes live. Our mains are warlocks and if they're not as much fun to play after spending some time adapting to the change, then I'll just craft up a bunch of crates of astral diamonds for my alliance, drop a bunch of gold in the guild bank, and assign a new guild leader. Either way, I'm not spending one red cent on this game ever again.

    *Running random dungeons is not guaranteed.

    A lot of people feel the same. Great post. Accurate and too the point.

  • krumple01krumple01 Posts: 481Member Arc User
    So each class is cookie cutter then? With paper or plastic choices? Gawd, this is still D&D right? Why take a way 90% of the choices? Is it because they want 90 year old grandmothers to play and not need to understand anything about the game? This choice of making static starting Ability Scores is really saddening. Please, please, please rethink this decision. Please allow us to roll up the Ability Scores that we want for our characters. Otherwise it just seems like SJWs are invading the game where all classes are exactly the same except for power and feat choices which become choice A or choice B. So please for the love of Selune, don't leave it like this. Allow us to pick our ability scores.
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Posts: 1,978Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    krumple01 said:

    So each class is cookie cutter then? With paper or plastic choices? Gawd, this is still D&D right? Why take a way 90% of the choices? Is it because they want 90 year old grandmothers to play and not need to understand anything about the game?

    Because, in order to "reduce choice paralysis" of new players, we should make it so players have 0 choice rather than explain what each ability roll does and give some preset choices for the lazy folks out there...
    krumple01 said:

    Please, please, please rethink this decision. Please allow us to roll up the Ability Scores that we want for our characters. Otherwise it just seems like SJWs are invading the game where all classes are exactly the same except for power and feat choices which become choice A or choice B. So please for the love of Selune, don't leave it like this. Allow us to pick our ability scores.

    I think almost everyone is with you here.

    I have not seen anyone that thinks that removing the choice from ability rolls (or making the damage rolls near useless to the point of +0.025% per point) is a good idea.

    As much as I'd like ability rolls to be more complex, I doubt the devs will change it, seeing as they have many things on their plate to fix, such as adjusting "overbalanced" classes or fixing other odd bugs.

  • feuerwolf#3519 feuerwolf Posts: 7Member Arc User
    Why is it not possible to keep the suggested "best" attributes as default for new players, BUT also have an option to reroll scores with nice dice (use at own risk^^)?
  • lantern22lantern22 Posts: 826Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Rolling attributes should stay.
  • vendoodvendood Posts: 63Member Arc User
    edited March 13
    The devs will be working from a set of design guidelines. Probably something like this:

    - Game should be smaller and faster
    - Game should look/work/code similarly across platforms
    - Game should remove all that old, complex code that none of us understand anyway, and use new, simpler code
    - All classes should be fairly similar, with limited options, because choosing different options makes it hard for us to balance
    - The game should be similarly grindy no matter where the player goes, so there are no fast rewards
    - The game should be streamlined and speed the player through creation, into gameplay, into levelling, into higher content.

    That way they can push people through the grinder as fast as possible, extract some money from them on the way, and get the next guys in.

    I'm looking at the list, but I think I covered all the bases there. Oh, wait, I forgot something! "Game should be interesting and fun to play".

    Apparently, so did they.
  • andorrabellandorrabell Posts: 341Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    adinosii said:

    vendood said:



    Thngs get really bad, however, when you consider another change that was made, namely that the different initial ability rolls have the same effects now for all classes. Those effects are decent for some classes, like Fighters and Wizards, but other classes get completely [HAMSTERED], Clerics worst of all. They automatically get assigned WIS as the highest stat, with STR and CHA as secondary. Guess what. WIS doesn't do [HAMSTER] for Clerics and STR boosts melee damage.

    If this [HAMSTER] change is allowed to go live, Clerics will want INT, CON and CHA, which makes absolutely no sense from a D&D perspective.

    I really hope this gets fixed/reverted.

    what he/she/whatever said.

    lEgPTQ6.jpg
  • andorrabellandorrabell Posts: 341Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    adinosii said:

    You know, if I was a brand new player, checking out this game because of interest in D&D, and the first thing I discovered was that I coudn't roll/control my primary ability scores, I would probably quit then and there.

    Good point.
    lEgPTQ6.jpg
  • littledanger#4115 littledanger Posts: 24Member Arc User
    One of the funest things I've done in this game is tweaking ability scores on my toons. I have 5 or 6 that I play. I've re rolled my DC at least 3-4 times going from when I started as an AC, up to a 18K DO and then back to a full buff AC. Anyhow, very bad, and lazy decision from the Dev's. Like many, many others - not a dime will be spent by me either.
  • kangkeokkangkeok Posts: 843Member Arc User
    edited March 15
    I cant agree with the developer on this. These attribute are suppose to define our character. We are not manufactured machine with all the same attribute. It just makes no sense in so many ways whether its roleplay or character customization. This would only give a bad impression to new player. There is no D&D game out there, even single player game in the 80's, that forbids player to customize its character ability score.

    Telling us that u want to keep new player from making the wrong decision are just lame. Like all other have said, u could have just done a better description on what each ability score does to our stat. When I first started this game, there is no description saying what each of the ability score does to the stat, so I assume it must be following the D&D rule set ( Dex for crit ). When I entered the game, only to discover that the description were totally off from the D&D rule set ( Dex for damage? WIS for crit? LOL? ). That gave me an impression that this game are just another money grab. It purposely mislead us during the character creation by not giving us the proper description, only to have us buy their race reroll token to correct our mistake later. I forgave u as I know the game needs money to survive. But Now u are getting rid of this feature to prevent player from making this mistake are plain stupid. U could have just give us the proper description during the character creation.

    In my opinion, removing this feature in character creation is a wrong move. The dev should return this feature to dice roll our ability score and grant each player a race reroll token for the changes they make in mod 16.
  • genadine#7803 genadine Posts: 2Member Arc User
    vendood said:

    The devs will be working from a set of design guidelines. Probably something like this:

    - Game should be smaller and faster
    - Game should look/work/code similarly across platforms
    - Game should remove all that old, complex code that none of us understand anyway, and use new, simpler code
    - All classes should be fairly similar, with limited options, because choosing different options makes it hard for us to balance
    - The game should be similarly grindy no matter where the player goes, so there are no fast rewards
    - The game should be streamlined and speed the player through creation, into gameplay, into levelling, into higher content.

    That way they can push people through the grinder as fast as possible, extract some money from them on the way, and get the next guys in.

    I'm looking at the list, but I think I covered all the bases there. Oh, wait, I forgot something! "Game should be interesting and fun to play".

    Apparently, so did they.

    As a Brand new to NW player but old school D&D I do find this confusing, but your analogy of the reasoning makes it a copy of just about every other MMORPG out there, get people in get them maxed level then offer them p2easygrind options for the End game stuff.

    I am going to give it a go and as its getting a revamp I wont really miss the old stuff.
  • runlevelzer0runlevelzer0 Posts: 22Member Arc User
    They seriously need to rework Wisdom to give a bonus to the effectiveness of Divinity-based abilities, heals and ranged damage. Otherwise, clerics are totally screwed.
  • dionchidionchi Posts: 580Member Arc User
    adinosii said:

    vendood said:

    In Mod 16, each class has one and only one set of attributes. There are no character rolls. All clerics get the same stats, all rogues get the same stats, all fighters get the same stats. You then apply your racial stats. That is all. (To the best of my knowledge)

    Yes, that's it, pretty much....you see, they obviously don't think players can be trusted to make intelligent choices, so the freedom to pick your stats is being taken away.

    Actually, the default stats are pretty decent for all classes from a traditional D&D perspective, but people dislike being treated like [HAMSTERS].

    Thngs get really bad, however, when you consider another change that was made, namely that the different initial ability rolls have the same effects now for all classes. Those effects are decent for some classes, like Fighters and Wizards, but other classes get completely [HAMSTERED], Clerics worst of all. They automatically get assigned WIS as the highest stat, with STR and CHA as secondary. Guess what. WIS doesn't do [HAMSTER] for Clerics and STR boosts melee damage.

    If this [HAMSTER] change is allowed to go live, Clerics will want INT, CON and CHA, which makes absolutely no sense from a D&D perspective.

    I really hope this gets fixed/reverted.
    krumple01 said:

    So each class is cookie cutter then? With paper or plastic choices? Gawd, this is still D&D right? Why take a way 90% of the choices? Is it because they want 90 year old grandmothers to play and not need to understand anything about the game? This choice of making static starting Ability Scores is really saddening. Please, please, please rethink this decision. Please allow us to roll up the Ability Scores that we want for our characters. Otherwise it just seems like SJWs are invading the game where all classes are exactly the same except for power and feat choices which become choice A or choice B. So please for the love of Selune, don't leave it like this. Allow us to pick our ability scores.

    As I see it for years players have been complaining, begging and demanding: "Character class balance - Character Class Balance - Character Class BALANCE!"....

    Guess what? We've got character class balance whether anyone actually wants it or not.

    My 2¢
    DD~
  • krumple01krumple01 Posts: 481Member Arc User
    dionchi said:


    As I see it for years players have been complaining, begging and demanding: "Character class balance - Character Class Balance - Character Class BALANCE!"....

    Guess what? We've got character class balance whether anyone actually wants it or not.
    My 2¢

    Well class balance is not making all the classes the same. Players just wanted it so dungeon run success wasn't dependent upon having a gwf, ac dc and an op and the rest of the party didn't matter. If you had another class attempting to be the main dps, players would either leave or struggle.

  • lantern22lantern22 Posts: 826Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    krumple01 said:

    dionchi said:


    As I see it for years players have been complaining, begging and demanding: "Character class balance - Character Class Balance - Character Class BALANCE!"....

    Guess what? We've got character class balance whether anyone actually wants it or not.
    My 2¢

    Well class balance is not making all the classes the same. Players just wanted it so dungeon run success wasn't dependent upon having a gwf, ac dc and an op and the rest of the party didn't matter. If you had another class attempting to be the main dps, players would either leave or struggle.

    Don't really need those classes. Run plenty of speed runs without DC and without GWF. Don't really need any particular class. Plenty of DPS options, atm anyway.
  • greywyndgreywynd Posts: 3,442Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Speed runs will be a thing of the past.
    Better to be a white knight than a knight with no honor.

    With your shield or on it.
  • mithrosnomoremithrosnomore Posts: 571Member Arc User
    lantern22 said:

    Rolling attributes should stay.

    We do not truly "roll attributes" now.
    They have a number of stat arrays available. "Reroll" just gives us one of those.

    I suggested that they give each class three arrays and let us pick, but it looks like they are going to be sticking with one right now.

    Why is it not possible to keep the suggested "best" attributes as default for new players, BUT also have an option to reroll scores with nice dice (use at own risk^^)?

    Again, we never truly rolled for stats, and introducing such a feature would be bad.

    Too many high rolls makes characters that are just better than others. Too many low rolls makes characters that are worse.
    Trying to find a balance with those extremes available is impossible.

    That's why they used arrays in the first place, and why none of the lowest rolls ever end up in your primary or secondary attributes.

    In any case, if you want to make your voices heard it is best to post Mod16 feedback in the appropriate section of the preview server forums.
  • adinosiiadinosii Posts: 3,468Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User


    I suggested that they give each class three arrays and let us pick, but it looks like they are going to be sticking with one right now.

    Actually, the one default array is quite decent for all classes ... sort of. I have to admit I see no benefit to it, no reason to change the old system - it wasn't broken in any way.

    No, the real issues with the new system are:
    • The bonuses are tied to specific stats, with no regard to whether they make sense for the classes. Clerics suffer most, with high scores in STR and WIS (which makes perfect sense from a D&D point of view) However, here STR gives a bonus to physical damage, but a Cleric would want INT and CON instead. WIS is being changed to give a bonus to outgoing healing, which is fine for a Devout Cleric, but does nothing for the Arbiter.
    • The bonuses are so small that they really don't matter. I mean, in D&D, raising your ability scores is a big thing ... here, getting a 0.25% boost is not exactly game-changing.
    The treatment of the ability scores and the refusal to admit that this is a bad design borders on being a dealbreaker for me, and is the main reason I have been looking at other games the past couple of weeks.
    Waiting to see how bad things will be.
  • sandukutupusandukutupu Posts: 849Member Arc User
    When I started play testing module 16 I felt like I really didn't care about success or failure of the module. So far (within this thread) most of us agree that removing the randomized stats is not D&D. But the game mechanics overall, since concept, has not been "by book" any book or edition of D&D. I now feel demoralized even more by the closing of the Foundry. While I don't plan to quit, I am already playing the game less than normal, if you call anything normal.

    @nunya#5309 I know how you feel, I was doing all the invokes for all 8 of my characters per day 7 days a week. That has to be about 4 hours per day or about 30 hours a week. This week I pop on in the morning and invoked, sent some mail to friends, then thought about what to next. I literally said to myself, "This BS won't matter." and logged off. Two of my friends are off playing Black Desert right now and I am looking forward to doing weekend PvP on Guild Wars (original not GW2) with my friends from Facebook. We have a blast in Factions doing Fort Aspenwood on Saturday and Sunday. So I have something to look forward to on the weekend.

    If Cryptic's intention was to refresh the user database, by getting rid of all the older players, it is working. I hope the new players find this new reimagined version good enough to stick around and spend tons of their money on it. I will be here, not as often, but playing for free.

    Have Fun!
    play.gif
  • mithrosnomoremithrosnomore Posts: 571Member Arc User
    adinosii said:



    Actually, the one default array is quite decent for all classes ... sort of.

    The fact is that a healer Cleric gets a decent default starting array but one that wants to focus on DPS isn't as good.

    Never mind that a Cleric shouldn't need intelligence to do their job, that is what Mod16 is making happen whether we like it or not, it's just that a Cleric wanting to focus on DPS should have an option to start with more intelligence then they do.

    That's is what I want to see.

    I want them to look at the starting arrays for all classes, adjust them to allow for better or worse stats that matter for their roles first and foremost, and then assign the remaining stats based upon general usefulness to the class and to further differentiate classes that share roles.

    A Warlock, for example, shares roles with a Cleric, so each class should have one stat array that starts with an 18 in wisdom (for healing) with the second highest number in intelligence, an 18 in intelligence (for DPS) with the second highest number in wisdom, and then a third array that rather that may have 16s in both intelligence and wisdom or a 16 and a 17.

    And then when assigning the remaining numbers to these arrays, they should make sure that they give different values to different numbers in regard to general usefulness and to further differentiate classes that share roles.
    The Cleric might have a higher constitution in all arrays while the Warlock has a higher charisma, for example.

    But it still only matters so much.

    The people posting Mod16 complaints in general discussion need to express their opinions in the appropriate preview thread(s).
  • nunya#5309 nunya Posts: 933Member Arc User
    @sandukutupu I'm glad to know I'm not alone. I used to do full invocations for 17 characters, plus managing those characters' professions, and running them through all the weeklies (that give astral diamonds) every week, plus doing the SH "Support" quests (Dread Ring Support, Sharandar Support, etc). I would also run them all through the SH every Sunday morning (this took 3 hours by itself!), including doing all the Builder quests collected over the week. On top of all that, my wife and I would run our mains through Castle Never and Random Intermediate Queue once a day, as well as running an alt through Random Leveling Queue every day. On the weekends, we'd do stuff with our guild members and/or just run stuff we find fun (and slowly grind through Acquisitions Incorporated, which is still not done).

    At this point, neither of us have logged on since Thursday (21 Mar). It's amazing how much time I have to do other things! So much so that I find myself actively repulsed by the thought of even logging onto this game. I suppose that means the "spell" is broken and I am just "this side" of quit. heh.

    @nitocris83 Be sure to congratulate the developers on a job well done insofar as it relates to driving your existing players away. My wife and I had $600 saved to spend at the Protector's Jubilee in June. You won't be getting one thin dime of that money.
  • adinosiiadinosii Posts: 3,468Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    adinosii said:



    Actually, the one default array is quite decent for all classes ... sort of.

    The fact is that a healer Cleric gets a decent default starting array but one that wants to focus on DPS isn't as good.
    Ah, sorry, I wasn't clear. What I meant is that the default array is fine from a D&D perspective, or with the current (live) bonuses the different stats give.

    The failure is in the decision to have each stat always give the same bonus, totally regardless of which base stats each class has. The worst mistake is to have INT always give a magical damage bonus. It should be INT for Wizards, WIS for Clerics and CHA for Sorcerers and Paladins. That change would have made the current system (barely) bearable.
    Waiting to see how bad things will be.
  • akemnosakemnos Posts: 452Member Arc User
    not sure if it was changed but didn't the stat array for Paladins give them an 8 Charisma? if so that is entirely not fine from a DND perspective as that was their main stat.
  • krumple01krumple01 Posts: 481Member Arc User
    akemnos said:

    not sure if it was changed but didn't the stat array for Paladins give them an 8 Charisma? if so that is entirely not fine from a DND perspective as that was their main stat.

    \Um, when you play NW, you are suppose to 100% forget about what you know about DnD. Um pretty much nothing is based on any dnd rules. So yeah, low charisma paladins exist now.

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