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Mod 16 - Once again a failure a proper communication

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  • greywyndgreywynd Posts: 3,630Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    cold#5127 said:



    No, I dont want to be *in*. I want a fair chance for everyone since this is NWN 2.0. After the cryptic lines about recovery and life steal being out of fashion, the pc market should be flooded with items using those stats, right? Nope, it didnt happen. Care to guess why?

    Their target to put it on Preview is March 1. When that happens anyone can try things out, kick the tires, see if the bumper falls off, etc.
    Better to be a white knight than a knight with no honor.

    With your shield or on it.
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Posts: 3,063Member Arc User

    You don't have to start over.
    You just have a new goal to aim for.
    I know some people think that's bad, but I'm happy to say it; "I don't care." If L71-80 isn't your thing stay in Barovia and Chult.

    I said several times, I didn't see a need for a new level cap, but people with far more understanding of the game than any of the people moaning about it believe it can prolong the life, and improve the quality of the game.

    And I'm more inclined to believe people with a wider interest in the game, who happen to know more about what's happening than people who have read a couple of headline notifications and just assumed that everything is going to be bad.

    I still don't get why people are moaning about having to get new gear more than normal just because its going to have a different level number.

    The same applies to everyone, yet only a few people seem to have this concern specific to post L70 gear.

    Here comes a new expansion that allows you to explore five new zones, improve your character, gain new skills, powers, feats and better gear!
    That's not fair... I already earned some good gear. Now they are making me earn more?

    YES.
    And as long as the new gear isn't as mind numbingly gated behind many multiple runs of the same one dungeon in order to "Restore" it, following weeks of repetitive dailies and weeklies unlocking that dungeon, I'll be perfectly happy with that.


    And the communication WILL come.

    Do you think that this is it?
    That the announcements made the other day are the sum total of the information that we will get before Mod 16 goes live?
    Please... don't think that.
    Because it's not true. More information will come... and then more, and possible more... it might come as an umanageable single data dump, but more likely will come out in packs of relevant info, so wait... wait and see what the FACTS are.
    Then lose your HAMSTER over how bad you know its all going to be.


    you are blithely missing the point of the concern with a studied air of condescension. If you think you're gaining points with someone somewhere by drinking the koolaid.. then yay, I guess , for you.


    Why should I place my trust in others to know what is best for me or what I'll enjoy more? am I five? are the rest of the players who think a level cap raise is not a great idea? (which is the majority I am aware of) lol. good grief. and if they did know what was best for retention of players they'd be practicing much better communication than they have done over the last 5 years. how you get outrage among your base is by giving partial information or none and letting rumors grow and fears spread instead of tackling why it's good and the why hows and whens. if they just came out with information about how our investments in the game are protected or lost going forward then there would be a lot less to be upset or concerned about. this game has shown very little know how in player retention and good will imo. we've been trying to get across the message of MORE and CLEAR and concise communication for YEARS now. every now and again a small effort is made that lasts about a month and then it goes away again.

    I've never understood your brand of gamer who mindlessly defends corporations against their own best interests and gets down on others who do try to defend their own and others best interests.

    as far as the concerns about gear, you're just in outer space with your counter point. your take on the concerns that I have at least is so far off the truth that I don't even know how to reply. it's been stated numerous times now.. and you're coming away with an IL concern? it's a waste of ad concern. we just SPENT and in some cases REAL MONEY LOTS OF REAL MONEY buying new gear.. that is good for part of one mod. that's the problem. there is no choice to continue using it like there has been for the better part of five years. a purchase that has been made is now being taken back with no refund (As far as I know) it's that there should be some lon.... yah know what. I'm tired of saying the same thing over and over.. so never mind. I'm not going to complete that thought. you just don't get it.

    but it was wrong of them to update mw to current levels right before doing a raised level cap. it encouraged a lot of expensive activity that they knew before hand was pointless.
    You're funny.
    You say that you argue the gist of posts you haven't read, and then talk about blithe ignorance.
    There's a word for that.
    It's "Hypocrite"

    I don't care who or what you trust.
    That's down to your own insecurities, and no amount of advising you to wait and see what actually happens before MAMSTERting the bed seems to help.

    If you think that advocating patience over blind anger and bandwagon negativity is akin to cult suicide then... yeah Ok... that's not an over reaction at all.
    But making normal leaps of coherent thought, clearly, isn't a thing you aspire to.

    So, I'll join the cult of common sense and me and Rev Jim will watch your ranting about... stuff you probably haven't bothered to read properly... from a distance.

    You seem to know exactly what is happening with new gear and now, it seems, Master Work.
    Cool. Is there any evidence you are basing your comments on or are those conclusions also the product of a fever dream?

    If you spent REAL MONEY LOTS OF REAL MONEY and didn't expect the stuff you spent it on to become redundant, as new content appears in a long running MMO, then you have my sympathy. Maybe you'll know better next time, and either spend less, or temper your expectations.

    I like the way you rant and bang on about stuff you don't know, and qualify it by slipping in a little "(As far as I know)" to cover your HAMSTER.
    The thing is, you know nothing about how the changes will happen. None of us do. Except the people who are responsible for doing it. And... drum roll... when they tell us, we WILL know, then we'll be able to discuss it properly.

    And THAT is the problem... it should read "(As far as I choose to believe based on getting the gist of some stuff from an undetailed announcement of something that will happen later that I probably didn't read all the way through coz they were too long.)"

    Edited because: "Mods… dudes... you let THAT get through the profanity filter?????"
    if I don't read a full post I have the courtesy of letting you know that. if I do not say that was tl:dr I did read it. My point is there are concerns. and I don't know what will happen for sure. I'm not a playtester.. but there have been hints that things are not ok with mw stuff and other things. I also did not say that I personally spent lots of money but many have. these kinds of business decisions cause instability with in the game. that does concern me. it is very possible to read between the lines of both what the playtesters are saying and what the blogs are saying.

    like I said. I am concerned with the well being of fellow gamers as well as my own well being. personally, with what I've seen so far I don't think my personal losses will be too terrible. but I know others are going to be hit hard. and I know If I were hit that hard I'd be squirming. would I stick around? maybe maybe not.
    the game needs to be trying to retain old while gaining new. while it's not unheard of unexpected for there to be progression, there should be some attempt of acknowledging recent investment. mod 15 they reworked mw. mod 16 they nuke it to the ground. that's pretty unprecedented for them. (and no I don't know that for sure but I'll bet you a shiny penny it's so) the player base spends that kind of ad because the game has a history of letting them use stuff beyond one mod if they want. yeah, they'll choose the shinier bis stuff but they're given a choice. if they want to use their older gear they can get by. the amount of damages they are forgoing for the new gear is nominal. in this mod they will really have no choice. it will be an ugly outrage.
    xbox guild

    Main toons
    Tiberius Rex SW Combat hr 17.4k
    Rincewind CW 18k


    PC imaginary friends special events only

  • entreri#2955 entreri Posts: 1Member New User
    Just curious but why in the world is “balancing” looked at by manipulating feats or classes but not from the environment of a dungeon or landscape forcing everyone who is playing different classes in a party to succumb to the special abilities each class possesses? Like filling a dungeon so full of traps (not minor leg injury ones) but totally fatal ones that no one would dare run ahead of a rogue who can see and disarm them and by disarm i dont mean bend down and hit the “X” button purposefully have to know how to disarm it only to then be forced to get behind the barbarian without ever thinking of being the first one in a room to face a boss. Until that happens the dance of a singular goal of run as fast as u can thru a dungeon just to see who can deal the most damage and get the highest item lvl gear and “balancing” will never end.
  • adinosiiadinosii Posts: 3,696Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited February 24
    > @cold#5127 said:
    > After the cryptic lines about recovery and life steal being out of fashion, the pc market should be flooded with items using those stats, right? Nope, it didnt happen. Care to guess why?

    Maybe because people are waiting to see what those stats get replaced with and how useful/required the replacements are?
    Time for a break. Will be back later to see if things have improved.
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Posts: 3,063Member Arc User
    adinosii said:

    > @cold#5127 said:

    > After the cryptic lines about recovery and life steal being out of fashion, the pc market should be flooded with items using those stats, right? Nope, it didnt happen. Care to guess why?



    Maybe because people are waiting to see what those stats get replaced with and how useful/required the replacements are?


    there are apparent leaked spoilers out there on the enchants. I don't know if they're true or faked but they sure look real. the word is black ice has been replaced with assassins enchantment replacing power with combat advantage. no idea how useful that will be in the modicum or if that is a replacement black ice or something entirely new. I did notice after that leak hit last night black ice went up in value on the xbox
    xbox guild

    Main toons
    Tiberius Rex SW Combat hr 17.4k
    Rincewind CW 18k


    PC imaginary friends special events only

  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Posts: 3,063Member Arc User

    cold#5127 said:

    cold#5127 said:

    I am sorry, but walls of text do not make the problem go away. My question is simple - is my hr going to be equal with a gwf? Also, why normal players cant test the mod, gaining insight on changes and avoiding the terrible losses on AH like play testers? You know what i am implying and ppl have friends who get hints.

    You're implying that play testers are cheating.
    And you want to be in on it.
    No, I dont want to be *in*. I want a fair chance for everyone since this is NWN 2.0. After the cryptic lines about recovery and life steal being out of fashion, the pc market should be flooded with items using those stats, right? Nope, it didnt happen. Care to guess why?
    Because the Earth is flat, and Lizard people run the world?
    it's a fact!
    xbox guild

    Main toons
    Tiberius Rex SW Combat hr 17.4k
    Rincewind CW 18k


    PC imaginary friends special events only

  • rafaeldarafaelda Posts: 561Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Looks like a massive change and it will be good for me one way or another, the game was getting boring for me, i dont like the "rat wheel effect" of "high end" dungeons, that Bis equip is just for that place so why bother... i prefer to keep multi toons with boons in line than work end game dungeons

    but i was really bored Ravenloft was amazing for me, really good made my hopes really high, but AI is just stupid...

    So next mod will take me out of my boredom i will find a nice Class to play (since i have 5 with almost all boons) or just find another thing to do XD

    Lets wait and see what hits the Preview...

    Good luck Devs i really want to have the same feeling i had when i found Ravenloft on preview one more time !!!!
  • heraldfayez#8520 heraldfayez Posts: 227Member Arc User
    one thing for sure whether the changes are good or bad for the playerbase they will be pushed to live even if no one likes it and it's against our will
    that alone is enough reason to lose hope in the future of this game overall because a company that dosn't give a HAMSTER about it's playerbase is a failed & doomed company just matter of time
  • adinosiiadinosii Posts: 3,696Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited February 25
    "our will"? Don't pretend to speak for the whole community.

    M16 brings a lot of changes. Some will be generally liked by everyone. Some will be more controversial and a few will probably be hated by most players. In some cases players may dislike a change, but grudgingly accept that it is good for the game long term.

    We just have to try to get them to revert or fix changes that annoy people and serve no good purpose...and there are not many of those...only 1 that I consider serious.
    Time for a break. Will be back later to see if things have improved.
  • greywyndgreywynd Posts: 3,630Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    one thing for sure whether the changes are good or bad for the playerbase they will be pushed to live even if no one likes it and it's against our will
    that alone is enough reason to lose hope in the future of this game overall because a company that dosn't give a HAMSTER about it's playerbase is a failed & doomed company just matter of time

    I don't recall the players being given a say in whether or not there was going to be a Neverwinter MMO. That was a company decision.

    Each mod and the attendant changes were a company decision.

    Changing the game so that it will be easier to manage/have a longer life/etc. is a company decision.

    The ONLY decision a player gets to make is if they are going to continue playing.
    Better to be a white knight than a knight with no honor.

    With your shield or on it.
  • ilithynilithyn Posts: 452Member Arc User
    edited February 25
    adinosii said:


    We just have to try to get them to revert or fix changes that annoy people and serve no good purpose...and there are not many of those...only 1 that I consider serious.

    I barely know what to say at this point, except some people are incredibly full of themselves and the importance of their opinions.
    Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end of it.
  • tgwolftgwolf Posts: 224Member Arc User
    Legitimately I wonder; is Patience like, an Optional Extra that your parents can choose to have installed in you at birth but were out of cash. Or...?

    I know Common Sense and Basic Decency etc. are but I thought Patience came installed as standard.
  • mordekai#1901 mordekai Posts: 1,314Member Arc User
    tgwolf said:

    Legitimately I wonder; is Patience like, an Optional Extra that your parents can choose to have installed in you at birth but were out of cash. Or...?

    I know Common Sense and Basic Decency etc. are but I thought Patience came installed as standard.

    You do know what year this is, yeah?
    I could understand that statement if this were pre 1980.
    Have you ever watched a teenager when their phone/tablet/laptop takes more than 4 seconds to buffer something? THEN check how long they watch whatever it is they are streaming before getting bored and looking at something else instead.

    Patience went a LONG time ago as a standard fixture. It seems that these days it's one of the more expensive luxury add ons that most people either don't understand how useful they are or just don't give a HAMSTER.


    Joking aside...

    Don't get me wrong, I have concerns about how these changes will impact the game.

    There are some that I already want to know more about in particular, that don't relate to the stat/item/level changes in detail but about more general game play;
    For instance;
    with giving Barbarians a new Tank Paragon, will anything be done to prevent "Queue Jumping" in Random Queues?
    What I mean is what will stop a Barbarian queuing as a Tank to get faster queue access than as DPS due the "Role" requirement algorithm, and then switch to DPS cos, let's face it GWF players are kind of known for having one eye on the monsters and the other eye on the Paingiver.
    People might think, "That's not going to be a problem, there are bigger issues... but I've too often been in a RIQ when the GF has posted something like"Sry. DPS bld not Tank. lol" and the whole thing has been a bloody mess that took twice as long as it should have. I think it has a high probability of becoming an issue if it's allowed to happen unchecked.
    (I know this sounds like I'm picking on Barbarians, but the same will potentially apply to Warlocks, Clerics, and Fighters.)

    I see 3 main ways of approaching this...
    1) Do nothing. What will be will be.
    2) Disallow Bonus Role RAD reward if someone switches Paragon Load Outs in the content. This would act as a minor disincentive, but not stop Queue Jumping.
    3) Prevent people from being able to swap load outs in dungeon/skirmish etc. This would be the most effective, but also most likely to cause player upset. I know that I've had to switch from OP Healer to OP Tank during FBI or MSPC because the Tank couldn't handle certain parts of the runs and would be pissed if I weren't allowed to in future.

    Of course the other, more radical, option is to get rid of Role Bonus and "Role Needed" from the queues entirely... but I'd be surprised if they did that.


    So THAT sort of thing I AM interested to know about.

    I have a couple of other, similar queries but... I'm prepared to wait and see if they have been considered rather than assuming they ahvent and demanding to know the facts RIGHT NOW DAMMIT!!!!!
  • silvershard#4275 silvershard Posts: 95Member Arc User
    ilithyn said:

    adinosii said:


    We just have to try to get them to revert or fix changes that annoy people and serve no good purpose...and there are not many of those...only 1 that I consider serious.

    I barely know what to say at this point, except some people are incredibly full of themselves and the importance of their opinions.
    You know that @adinosii is part of the alpha test and is privy to the actual information, and details of the changes, right?

    You don't mind people just making HAMSTER up and passing off subjective guesswork as objective truth, that's fine... no rebuke from you for random outrage at half truth analysis.
    But someone who knows what they are talking about having an opinion on something they actually KNOW... THAT is a reach too far for you?

    We're through the HAMSTER looking glass now.
  • ilithynilithyn Posts: 452Member Arc User

    ilithyn said:

    adinosii said:


    We just have to try to get them to revert or fix changes that annoy people and serve no good purpose...and there are not many of those...only 1 that I consider serious.

    I barely know what to say at this point, except some people are incredibly full of themselves and the importance of their opinions.
    You know that @adinosii is part of the alpha test and is privy to the actual information, and details of the changes, right?

    You don't mind people just making HAMSTER up and passing off subjective guesswork as objective truth, that's fine... no rebuke from you for random outrage at half truth analysis.
    But someone who knows what they are talking about having an opinion on something they actually KNOW... THAT is a reach too far for you?

    We're through the HAMSTER looking glass now.
    I have a problem with people who are uber rich in the game and tells me that this mod isn't going to screw the playerbase majorly. This person and the other alpha tester that have said anything and think this is the greatest ever is not people I trust because of course they'll be fine. They have the in-game resources, not to mention advance knowledge, to adapt to whatever changes are made. Of course they'll be fine, they would always be fine.
    But I don't trust either of them to have a valid opinion of what will and will not majorly HAMSTER over the average player, they're far too far removed from that segment to have one and frankly never shown any indication of listening to any of us that doesn't worship the ground they walk on.

    So the whole "there's only one terrible change with this mod" is not something I'll trust from someone that far removed from my reality in the game.
    Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end of it.
  • silvershard#4275 silvershard Posts: 95Member Arc User
    edited February 26
    ilithyn said:

    ilithyn said:

    adinosii said:


    We just have to try to get them to revert or fix changes that annoy people and serve no good purpose...and there are not many of those...only 1 that I consider serious.

    I barely know what to say at this point, except some people are incredibly full of themselves and the importance of their opinions.
    You know that @adinosii is part of the alpha test and is privy to the actual information, and details of the changes, right?

    You don't mind people just making HAMSTER up and passing off subjective guesswork as objective truth, that's fine... no rebuke from you for random outrage at half truth analysis.
    But someone who knows what they are talking about having an opinion on something they actually KNOW... THAT is a reach too far for you?

    We're through the HAMSTER looking glass now.
    I have a problem with people who are uber rich in the game and tells me that this mod isn't going to screw the playerbase majorly. This person and the other alpha tester that have said anything and think this is the greatest ever is not people I trust because of course they'll be fine. They have the in-game resources, not to mention advance knowledge, to adapt to whatever changes are made. Of course they'll be fine, they would always be fine.
    But I don't trust either of them to have a valid opinion of what will and will not majorly HAMSTER over the average player, they're far too far removed from that segment to have one and frankly never shown any indication of listening to any of us that doesn't worship the ground they walk on.

    So the whole "there's only one terrible change with this mod" is not something I'll trust from someone that far removed from my reality in the game.
    I 100% agree with the first 4 words of that statement.
    After that, you lost me.
    Your comment to @adinosii previously was in direct response to their comment about a change which they have already stated several times that they completely disagree with and hope will be stopped and how we as a community of players can try to get Cryptic to change their minds a bout the issues we do have concerns about WHEN they drop.
    You even quoted their comment about that issue in your reply.
    I might be wrong, but that's different to "think this is the greatest ever" isn't it?

    You are trying far too hard to find a scapegoat on which to hang your worries.
    You don't trust this that or the other source, therefore it's all going to be terrible.
    That's borderline paranoia.
  • adinosiiadinosii Posts: 3,696Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited February 26
    ilithyn said:


    So the whole "there's only one terrible change with this mod" is not something I'll trust from someone that far removed from my reality in the game.

    Considering that you don't know anything about why or how I play, that statement makes it look like you are just motivated by negativity and envy.

    Anyhow, for your info, yes, I may have been around for a while (since open beta), but I am not one of the ultra-rich players...at the time I was invited into the playtest, my total "liquid" holdings were a few thousand zen, and maybe a million AD or so.

    Anyhow, I said there is one thing about Mod 16 that I consider really bad - practically in the "if this goes live, I'll have to reconsider whether I want to continue playing" category. I believe i used the phrases "unacceptable" and "slap in the face" in my feedback....so claiming that I just mindlessly approve of every change is pretty far from the truth.

    I felt like this when Mod 6 was released, and then I became so annoyed that I left the game for a year. Now, I am not going to mention what this one issue is - it has not been mentioned or leaked, and if it gets fixed before release, the matter is dead and closed and I will not discuss it.

    There are a few other things about Mod 16 that I dislike. Some of those affect me personally, like the effective removal of the "buffer" role and converting the DCs back into healers like they were in the early days. I do not like playing a healer, and this change will not encourage me to play my DC. There is also the removal of Recovery and LIfesteal and the simplification of the feat system - those things may force me to abandon a playstyle I like and take away some of the aspects that made NWO unique, but I will (very grudgingly) accept that something had to be done. Buff stacking and gear "inflation" had taken any challenge out of the game for end-game players, and made it needlessly difficult for lower IL-level players to "catch up".

    Sure, it would have been better if things had been like this from the start, but at this point, this is a viable solution.

    There are other changes I don't care much about one way or another, a few that I think are nice and several that I absolutely love - some of which have not been revealed yet...you will see those eventually.

    Sure, I have to work a bit on getting new/improved gear, do the new campaign and such, but overall, most of M16 is pretty nice.
    Post edited by adinosii on
    Time for a break. Will be back later to see if things have improved.
  • ilithynilithyn Posts: 452Member Arc User
    edited February 26

    ilithyn said:

    ilithyn said:

    adinosii said:


    We just have to try to get them to revert or fix changes that annoy people and serve no good purpose...and there are not many of those...only 1 that I consider serious.

    I barely know what to say at this point, except some people are incredibly full of themselves and the importance of their opinions.
    You know that @adinosii is part of the alpha test and is privy to the actual information, and details of the changes, right?

    You don't mind people just making HAMSTER up and passing off subjective guesswork as objective truth, that's fine... no rebuke from you for random outrage at half truth analysis.
    But someone who knows what they are talking about having an opinion on something they actually KNOW... THAT is a reach too far for you?

    We're through the HAMSTER looking glass now.
    I have a problem with people who are uber rich in the game and tells me that this mod isn't going to screw the playerbase majorly. This person and the other alpha tester that have said anything and think this is the greatest ever is not people I trust because of course they'll be fine. They have the in-game resources, not to mention advance knowledge, to adapt to whatever changes are made. Of course they'll be fine, they would always be fine.
    But I don't trust either of them to have a valid opinion of what will and will not majorly HAMSTER over the average player, they're far too far removed from that segment to have one and frankly never shown any indication of listening to any of us that doesn't worship the ground they walk on.

    So the whole "there's only one terrible change with this mod" is not something I'll trust from someone that far removed from my reality in the game.
    I 100% agree with the first 4 words of that statement.
    After that, you lost me.
    Your comment to @adinosii previously was in direct response to their comment about a change which they have already stated several times that they completely disagree with and hope will be stopped and how we as a community of players can try to get Cryptic to change their minds a bout the issues we do have concerns about WHEN they drop.
    You even quoted their comment about that issue in your reply.
    I might be wrong, but that's different to "think this is the greatest ever" isn't it?

    You are trying far too hard to find a scapegoat on which to hang your worries.
    You don't trust this that or the other source, therefore it's all going to be terrible.
    That's borderline paranoia.
    Because there's such a magnificent track record of the devs listening to the player base right? Because we have how many mods right now proving that they care jack HAMSTER about our opinions and frankly anyone who thinks otherwise at this point is unforgivably naive. We don't have to go any further than mod 15 and the major HAMSTER over of the profession system to geet an example of exactly how much the devs in this game "cares" about us.

    But you keep on being naive right along @adinosii

    P.S. Honestly the difference between the uber rich and the so comfortably well off in the game that they can afford whatever they need, when they need it, is not one I care enough about to get into semantic arguments about. It's still far beyond the reality of most of us. But go off I guess.
    Not to mention it is hard to accept on faith that someone who's very uncritical of this unless pressed have actually ever been critical, but whatever.
    Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end of it.
  • greywyndgreywynd Posts: 3,630Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    To be fair, the majority of feedback I have seen/heard concerning the profs changes has been positive. Sorry if you don't like it.
    Better to be a white knight than a knight with no honor.

    With your shield or on it.
  • draugkirdraugkir Posts: 75Member Arc User
    edited February 27
    greywynd said:

    To be fair, the majority of feedback I have seen/heard concerning the profs changes has been positive. Sorry if you don't like it.

    Actually most quite negative.

    Most of the people i daily meet in game dont even play the game anymore.. they just log in 100k log out and go play soemthign else cos theres no point wasting resources nor time in a game soon to be dead.

    People make jokes about the IQ of whoever came up with theese changes.

    I think your point of view on whats going on is too out of the reality of what players are voicing.

    Sorry if you dont like it.
  • wintersmokewintersmoke Posts: 1,280Member Arc User

    You don't have to start over.
    You just have a new goal to aim for.
    I know some people think that's bad, but I'm happy to say it; "I don't care." If L71-80 isn't your thing stay in Barovia and Chult.

    I said several times, I didn't see a need for a new level cap, but people with far more understanding of the game than any of the people moaning about it believe it can prolong the life, and improve the quality of the game.

    And I'm more inclined to believe people with a wider interest in the game, who happen to know more about what's happening than people who have read a couple of headline notifications and just assumed that everything is going to be bad.

    I still don't get why people are moaning about having to get new gear more than normal just because its going to have a different level number.

    The same applies to everyone, yet only a few people seem to have this concern specific to post L70 gear.

    Here comes a new expansion that allows you to explore five new zones, improve your character, gain new skills, powers, feats and better gear!
    That's not fair... I already earned some good gear. Now they are making me earn more?

    YES.
    And as long as the new gear isn't as mind numbingly gated behind many multiple runs of the same one dungeon in order to "Restore" it, following weeks of repetitive dailies and weeklies unlocking that dungeon, I'll be perfectly happy with that.


    And the communication WILL come.

    Do you think that this is it?
    That the announcements made the other day are the sum total of the information that we will get before Mod 16 goes live?
    Please... don't think that.
    Because it's not true. More information will come... and then more, and possible more... it might come as an umanageable single data dump, but more likely will come out in packs of relevant info, so wait... wait and see what the FACTS are.
    Then lose your HAMSTER over how bad you know its all going to be.


    you are blithely missing the point of the concern with a studied air of condescension. If you think you're gaining points with someone somewhere by drinking the koolaid.. then yay, I guess , for you.


    Why should I place my trust in others to know what is best for me or what I'll enjoy more? am I five? are the rest of the players who think a level cap raise is not a great idea? (which is the majority I am aware of) lol. good grief. and if they did know what was best for retention of players they'd be practicing much better communication than they have done over the last 5 years. how you get outrage among your base is by giving partial information or none and letting rumors grow and fears spread instead of tackling why it's good and the why hows and whens. if they just came out with information about how our investments in the game are protected or lost going forward then there would be a lot less to be upset or concerned about. this game has shown very little know how in player retention and good will imo. we've been trying to get across the message of MORE and CLEAR and concise communication for YEARS now. every now and again a small effort is made that lasts about a month and then it goes away again.

    I've never understood your brand of gamer who mindlessly defends corporations against their own best interests and gets down on others who do try to defend their own and others best interests.

    as far as the concerns about gear, you're just in outer space with your counter point. your take on the concerns that I have at least is so far off the truth that I don't even know how to reply. it's been stated numerous times now.. and you're coming away with an IL concern? it's a waste of ad concern. we just SPENT and in some cases REAL MONEY LOTS OF REAL MONEY buying new gear.. that is good for part of one mod. that's the problem. there is no choice to continue using it like there has been for the better part of five years. a purchase that has been made is now being taken back with no refund (As far as I know) it's that there should be some lon.... yah know what. I'm tired of saying the same thing over and over.. so never mind. I'm not going to complete that thought. you just don't get it.

    but it was wrong of them to update mw to current levels right before doing a raised level cap. it encouraged a lot of expensive activity that they knew before hand was pointless.
    You're funny.
    You say that you argue the gist of posts you haven't read, and then talk about blithe ignorance.
    There's a word for that.
    It's "Hypocrite"

    I don't care who or what you trust.
    That's down to your own insecurities, and no amount of advising you to wait and see what actually happens before MAMSTERting the bed seems to help.

    If you think that advocating patience over blind anger and bandwagon negativity is akin to cult suicide then... yeah Ok... that's not an over reaction at all.
    But making normal leaps of coherent thought, clearly, isn't a thing you aspire to.

    So, I'll join the cult of common sense and me and Rev Jim will watch your ranting about... stuff you probably haven't bothered to read properly... from a distance.

    You seem to know exactly what is happening with new gear and now, it seems, Master Work.
    Cool. Is there any evidence you are basing your comments on or are those conclusions also the product of a fever dream?

    If you spent REAL MONEY LOTS OF REAL MONEY and didn't expect the stuff you spent it on to become redundant, as new content appears in a long running MMO, then you have my sympathy. Maybe you'll know better next time, and either spend less, or temper your expectations.

    I like the way you rant and bang on about stuff you don't know, and qualify it by slipping in a little "(As far as I know)" to cover your HAMSTER.
    The thing is, you know nothing about how the changes will happen. None of us do. Except the people who are responsible for doing it. And... drum roll... when they tell us, we WILL know, then we'll be able to discuss it properly.

    And THAT is the problem... it should read "(As far as I choose to believe based on getting the gist of some stuff from an undetailed announcement of something that will happen later that I probably didn't read all the way through coz they were too long.)"

    Edited because: "Mods… dudes... you let THAT get through the profanity filter?????"
    All assets should be covered!
  • wintersmokewintersmoke Posts: 1,280Member Arc User

    cold#5127 said:

    I am sorry, but walls of text do not make the problem go away. My question is simple - is my hr going to be equal with a gwf? Also, why normal players cant test the mod, gaining insight on changes and avoiding the terrible losses on AH like play testers? You know what i am implying and ppl have friends who get hints.

    You're implying that play testers are cheating.
    And you want to be in on it.
    If you want, I'll go ahead and say it outright. If there is ever another play test group (I have my doubts) they should be locked out of the AH until after the official Mod drop.
  • namelesshero347namelesshero347 Posts: 1,782Member Arc User
    draugkir said:


    Most of the people i daily meet in game dont even play the game anymore.. they just log in 100k log out and go play soemthign else cos theres no point wasting resources nor time in a game soon to be dead.

    Then why bother to log in for the 100K AD if the game is going to be dead?

    I'd imagine many people are taking a bit of a break before the next mod. I used to run REQ every night. I haven't run REQ once since the announcement. No point grinding for CR armor anymore. Last night, I queued my OP for CoDG one last time to get the last ampule to exhalt my second piece. I don't think I will see CoDG, CR, or even ToNG for a while unless some "friend" needs my help. Doing RLQ, RIQ, and RAQ (edemo, maybe FBI) already gets me close to 100K. No need to put up with REQ.
  • wintersmokewintersmoke Posts: 1,280Member Arc User
    tgwolf said:

    Legitimately I wonder; is Patience like, an Optional Extra that your parents can choose to have installed in you at birth but were out of cash. Or...?

    I know Common Sense and Basic Decency etc. are but I thought Patience came installed as standard.

    These are all optional features. They can only be bought at a later date.
  • silvershard#4275 silvershard Posts: 95Member Arc User
    ilithyn said:

    ilithyn said:

    ilithyn said:

    adinosii said:


    We just have to try to get them to revert or fix changes that annoy people and serve no good purpose...and there are not many of those...only 1 that I consider serious.

    I barely know what to say at this point, except some people are incredibly full of themselves and the importance of their opinions.
    You know that @adinosii is part of the alpha test and is privy to the actual information, and details of the changes, right?

    You don't mind people just making HAMSTER up and passing off subjective guesswork as objective truth, that's fine... no rebuke from you for random outrage at half truth analysis.
    But someone who knows what they are talking about having an opinion on something they actually KNOW... THAT is a reach too far for you?

    We're through the HAMSTER looking glass now.
    I have a problem with people who are uber rich in the game and tells me that this mod isn't going to screw the playerbase majorly. This person and the other alpha tester that have said anything and think this is the greatest ever is not people I trust because of course they'll be fine. They have the in-game resources, not to mention advance knowledge, to adapt to whatever changes are made. Of course they'll be fine, they would always be fine.
    But I don't trust either of them to have a valid opinion of what will and will not majorly HAMSTER over the average player, they're far too far removed from that segment to have one and frankly never shown any indication of listening to any of us that doesn't worship the ground they walk on.

    So the whole "there's only one terrible change with this mod" is not something I'll trust from someone that far removed from my reality in the game.
    I 100% agree with the first 4 words of that statement.
    After that, you lost me.
    Your comment to @adinosii previously was in direct response to their comment about a change which they have already stated several times that they completely disagree with and hope will be stopped and how we as a community of players can try to get Cryptic to change their minds a bout the issues we do have concerns about WHEN they drop.
    You even quoted their comment about that issue in your reply.
    I might be wrong, but that's different to "think this is the greatest ever" isn't it?

    You are trying far too hard to find a scapegoat on which to hang your worries.
    You don't trust this that or the other source, therefore it's all going to be terrible.
    That's borderline paranoia.
    Because there's such a magnificent track record of the devs listening to the player base right? Because we have how many mods right now proving that they care jack HAMSTER about our opinions and frankly anyone who thinks otherwise at this point is unforgivably naive. We don't have to go any further than mod 15 and the major HAMSTER over of the profession system to geet an example of exactly how much the devs in this game "cares" about us.

    But you keep on being naive right along @adinosii

    P.S. Honestly the difference between the uber rich and the so comfortably well off in the game that they can afford whatever they need, when they need it, is not one I care enough about to get into semantic arguments about. It's still far beyond the reality of most of us. But go off I guess.
    Not to mention it is hard to accept on faith that someone who's very uncritical of this unless pressed have actually ever been critical, but whatever.
    Now who has an overinflated sense of their own opinion?
    Neither of us have said this is going to be great. In fact I've repeatedly said that if it is HAMSTER I will say so, based on the factcs when it goes live/preview.
    You've suddenly gone from slagging the opinions of the "uber rich" having learned that that term doesn't apply to the target of your criticism to basically anyone with a bit of zen and a million or more AD. (I have 2000 zen banked and haven't bought anything with AD for the past three weeks so have slightly over 2.1 banked simply from hitting the (not exactly a mountain to climb) daily rAD cap and not spending any. I guess that saving up for a few weeks invalidates my opinion too? If so your rant has gone past nonsense and straight to flat out stupid.

    You've already made your mind up, without actually knowing anything and have decided that anyone who says "Wait and see" or even "I think these changes might just be a good thing" is a fawning sycophant. Because YOU don't trust "them".

    Your stand that someone with factual data is wrong because your gut feeling is right stops you from seeing the fact that you don't actually KNOW what the outcome will be and that you might be wrong.

    It's not your opinion that is at fault, you may be completely right and everything will be as bad as you assume.
    I doubt it, and personally think, based on the little I know, that some of the stuff will be great, some will be no big deal, and some will be bad. I'm also betting that some of the stuff I like will be hated by others, while the stuff I hate will be loved by others. You see most of what is happening will only be judged subjectively, depending on whether you believed the changes needed to happen in the first place. For every person like me who feels that Life Steal NEEDED to be changed there will be someone who can't stand the thought of not having it as their main source of healing. The same goes for the new opposing stats system for Crit and Deflect. I think the concept is a good one, but I reserve judgement on whether it IS good until I get a chance to see it in action. It might be HAMSTER in practise, but here's the thing I DON'T KNOW and neither do YOU.

    But there are people who DO know, because they've seen it in action. And the thing that is at fault is your assumption that because (DESPITE having no idea what most of the changes will mean in the process of playing), you have decided that it's all going to be bad, and that anyone who doesn't think that is some quisling mouthpiece of "the man". Even if they actually know more about it than you do.

    When my son was tiny he decided he didn't like raw carrots, despite never having eaten one. We tried to convince him, NOT that they were the best thing in the world, but to actually TRY the damned things before passing judgement. He came up with all sorts of reasons for why they were horrible and why we were all horrible for trying to force him to eat something he hated. Then when his best friend expressed his love for raw carrots my boy suddenly decided to try them. And now he eats them without fuss because "They're not as bad as I thought"... I wouldn't have given a HAMSTER if he'd tried them and said "No, they ARE foul, keep them away from me." Because at least he was making his judgment from an informed position

    That's YOU right now. A grumpy toddler who doesn't want to eat their vegetables. Who knows, when you finally TRY the damned things you might not hate them after all...
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Posts: 2,727Member Arc User

    rubytrue said:

    I will be blunt here. I went into the module 16 playtest expecting it to be bad. I did not have high expectations at all and if it was anything like module 15 was to me, that would have been the last straw and I would have quit. Instead I was pleasantly surprised and I am very eagerly awaiting the arrival of module 16. Take that as you will, but right now I am looking forward to it.

    Coming from thefabricant, that's really all you need to know....
    with all due respect, (because I do respect the fabricant, but I do not always agree with him) what he wants from the game vs what the general population of the game wants is two very different things. he comes at this game from a super leet stand point which most of us are not aiming for. so that in and of it self frightens me :) at the same point from a bug aspect it is reassuring as well.
    The average player who plays MMO today could not go and play Everquest when it was in its glory. The average player wants 10-15 minute runs. I don't see the Fab wanting this; I see him more inline with the days of old in Everquest and even WOW. NWO is a casual game; I mean we can literally buy all the way up to chult and buy everything including gear to gear a near max end game character. That is about as casual as you can get.

    What I'm saying is if the changes in mod 16 makes this game to hard for the average casual gamer than this game will take a financial hit.

    If the game changes to much and players need to invest additional resources to get back to where they are now or even try to get to 50% of where they are now many will call it quits. People don't like feeling weak after becoming a god.

    Bonding nerf hurt the game population and I was one that supported that change and still feel it needs to be adjusted. I support all nerfs such as removing power sharing and making this game a true challenge but I will state this, doing so will hurt Cryptic financially. If that happens I see some of the nerfs being fixed later on to satisfy the masses.

  • greywyndgreywynd Posts: 3,630Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    draugkir said:



    Actually most quite negative.

    Most of the people i daily meet in game dont even play the game anymore.. they just log in 100k log out and go play soemthign else cos theres no point wasting resources nor time in a game soon to be dead.

    People make jokes about the IQ of whoever came up with theese changes.

    I think your point of view on whats going on is too out of the reality of what players are voicing.

    Sorry if you dont like it.

    Then it would depend on who has a wider group they listen to. From what you describe you don't have a very large group to listen to on account they're leaving/have left.

    I've been playing for 4 years. In those 4 years, I can't tell you the number of false prophets that I've seen that declared the game "soon to be dead'.

    I think you'r point of view is coming from an echo chamber.
    Better to be a white knight than a knight with no honor.

    With your shield or on it.
  • jdetrimentaljdetrimental Posts: 16Member Arc User
    > @greywynd said:
    > Actually most quite negative.
    >
    > Most of the people i daily meet in game dont even play the game anymore.. they just log in 100k log out and go play soemthign else cos theres no point wasting resources nor time in a game soon to be dead.
    >
    > People make jokes about the IQ of whoever came up with theese changes.
    >
    > I think your point of view on whats going on is too out of the reality of what players are voicing.
    >
    > Sorry if you dont like it.
    >
    > Then it would depend on who has a wider group they listen to. From what you describe you don't have a very large group to listen to on account they're leaving/have left.
    >
    > I've been playing for 4 years. In those 4 years, I can't tell you the number of false prophets that I've seen that declared the game "soon to be dead'.
    >
    > I think you'r point of view is coming from an echo chamber.

    You can look in popular zones and the ah on xbox see the game is dying. It got significantly worse with the hunt bans. Markets are dead, people are not forming groups. I have been playing years as well. I hope the new mod beings people back, but not even sure I'm continuing until it hits preview. For now I'm one of the people who logs in for the 100k, key, and some mw.
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Posts: 2,727Member Arc User
    edited February 27





    Overall I find that this update will have many cost related items for players and if that is the case some players maybe tired of constantly needing to invest with each mod. As someone who mains a CW, every mod I have had to change 1-2 items that cost in game resources and sometimes real money do to how bad my luck is when I try to upgrade an item from epic to legendary or legendary to mythical. Forget going from a R10 to R14 enchantment. This seems like it is a major cost sink and I have a gut feeling we may see other changes that have not yet been announced that may impact our characters further.

    IMO we didn't need both a level cap and redoing all the character classes. I would have introduce one in one mod and the other in another mod. I would have staged the rollout they have planned for mod 16. It also would be easier to catch and fix bugs.

    Dude, can you give the lottery numbers for this weekend while you're at it?

    You "FIND" that this update will...

    At best you should be using the word "speculate," "guess", or probably "worry"...

    If English is your second or third language I apologise, but with the evidence so far available there's nothing TO find.

    Some of the outrage and assumption being displayed here is worse than when they announced the title of the fourth Harry Potter book without a full synopsis, and people went mad about underage school kids drinking Flaming Sambucas.*


    (*that didn't really happen... I made it up to illustrate a point.)
    "Keep your eyes open while delving the layers of Undermountain, not just for dangers and traps, but for the glint of treasure hidden throughout. As players advance to level 80 so does the gear. Undermountain brings new equipment ranging from level 71 to 80, new seal gear, new dungeon equipment, and even new higher item level artifacts for players to enjoy."

    Speculation? I think not. The very last part of the quote above from the post by the dev clearly shows that players will have to invest in game resources or real world money, depending upon their luck, to upgrade the new higher IL artifacts. Now keep in mind artifacts in this game includes regular artifacts, weapons, neck and waist. Therefore my speculation is not speculation given this. I simply read what was written and expressed my concern over the fact that the company is once again pushing newer and shiny items our way that quite a few players will use real funds to acquire or to reach its max IL.

    As someone who just did this I'm not all that happy about needing to do it so soon. I was hoping my weapons would last a year like the Fey weapon did.


    I don't want to get bogged down in linguistic semantics, but even if you start a sentence with "I find" and then go to say "May be tired of." you are still speculating.
    (You didn't FIND that there will be new gear... it's right there in front of your eyes, it wasn't lost or hidden, it took no effort to uncover, the speculation comes in your conclusion as what that information may or may not mean.)

    Let me break it down.
    "I find that this new Mod will have new content... which means new gear... which means... I'll need to somehow EARN that stuff." (Objective data, which everyone can see.)
    "And maybe some people won't like that". (Subjective assumption, or opinion.)
    See how it works?
    Tying an objective and subjective into one statement doesn't strengthen the objectivity of the assumption.


    But, anyway, on to the wider complaint.

    So... there will be new gear?
    Isn't what you would expect in ANY NEW CONTENT. Irrespective of level cap increase.
    I'd hope there was something worth having after grinding an entire new NWO campaign.

    Invest "in game resources"???????
    What do you think they exist for????

    It's like moaning about Easter. "I find that some people may be tired of chocolate, ergo Easter is BAD." Who are these people? Let them go somewhere and eat carrots, not moan about how the announcement that Easter is coming round in a few months is somehow bad news for everyone else who quite likes chocolate. (That's a simile. Just in case anyone wonders what the hell carrots have to do with anything...)

    Maybe consider that such a situation will allow players to actually do MORE than shower rinse and repeat the same content over and over in a bid to fast track to BiS so they can... run the same content over and over once a week, complaining that there's not enough to do?

    BiS is about to get better. Much better.
    And that will mean that people will find it harder to get their four best buddies, buy a bunch of Campaign Advancement packs, fast track the campaign and ram raid the new Dungeon, gain all the new gear, vivify it and sit back and wait for the next mod to drop.
    I'm sure there will be a few who have the money to fast track to 80, (Hell, there will probably be a Zen bundle...) and also buy most of the associated gear.
    Personally, I'd rather the campaigns be better, and play the game and get there eventually.
    But if they have the money and that's how they enjoy playing, fair play to them. Those are the people who are paying far more of Cryptic's bills than I ever will, so I'm not going to criticise them for covering my end of the costs.

    But since it looks like L71-80 will be EARNED through campaign participation rather than chasing dire bears in the Stronghold, it won't be so easy to just throw freebies at alts to get them up there.

    There will be LOADS of new stuff to do. How the hell is THAT a bad thing? Who are the people who want new content, but without new rewards and better gear?
    Are they after content that they don't have to invest anything in? I suppose those guys LOVE the new Professions... new content that they can choose to completely and utterly ignore.

    In summary... if you are tired of grinding and refining for new and better gear... it's not a problem with Mod 16.

    I find that some players may be tired of playing a linear progression MMO. Maybe they just don't get the way these things work and might be better off trying a different type of game.


    You missed the point I was making and decided to go off onto your own points.

    My point was around artifact gear, not gear in general but artifact gear. You know your weapon, waist, and neck. The gear that requires wards to rank up so you don't waste your resources. I talked about that a 90% of success for me used 30 wards in one go. Than the 50% took another 30. Yeah those items. Now given my luck I typically buy with real world money coal wards for 10% or less chance as it typically takes me hundreds of wards to make an item go up to the next ranking. So I run three character and since I will only main them for a specific role I will have to replaced 3 main hands, 3 off hands, 3 necks and 3 waist than I will spend around $120 for coal wards for that 10% mark given my horrible luck.

    That is a cost to me in real world money that I won't do after just doing this for mod 15 and I'm not the only player that feels this way.
    Post edited by mebengalsfan#9264 on
  • kolatmasterkolatmaster Posts: 3,069Member Arc User
    tgwolf said:

    Legitimately I wonder; is Patience like, an Optional Extra that your parents can choose to have installed in you at birth but were out of cash. Or...?

    I know Common Sense and Basic Decency etc. are but I thought Patience came installed as standard.



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