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All Zen Items should be Bound to Account

mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Posts: 3,166Member Arc User
edited November 2018 in PvE Discussion
I know I will get flamed for this but it needs to be brought up and resolved.

Making all zen purchase account bound items would eliminate the backlog we see today for the zen exchange. Many players took advantage of the sale we just had and bought stacks of wards, both coal and pres. Than these said players will sell the item well above its actual value. Than because they have so much they are in no rush to convert the AD over zen. They will wait until the next sale and repeat this process. These players are the biggest culprits to the backlog.

Just using 1000 zen as an example if you bought the pres wards on sale from last week you could acquire 16 packs of pres wards. After the sale ends and a bit of time that player can sell a stack for 70-80K AD. Actual value given the current exchange is around 50K. At 70K for one of the packs the player is earning 63K AD. Using the 16 packs of pres wards that player would earn over 1M AD. Than simply using the zen exchange that player would end up with 2K zen. Rinse and repeat and over time that one player using this method can earn millions of AD without ever doing anything else in the game.

The game should not allow this behavior as these players are causing the backlog for the zen exchange. By making items acquired through the zen store bound this would remove quite a bit of the backlog we have today.

Making zen items account bound will not impact the game F2P model. It will help remove quite a bit of the zen backlog we have now.
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Comments

  • poisd2strike#7598 poisd2strike Posts: 69Member Arc User
    Doing what you suggest would impact all platforms, including Xbox which currently has no Zen backlog and PS4 whose backlog is not nearly as bad as PC. It would also decrease the amount of revenue Cryptic makes. Many people buy items for Zen (and use a discount coupon if possible), with the explicit intent to sell at least some of those items to other players on the AH.
  • lowjohnlowjohn Posts: 1,021Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Agreed, this (or the elimination of Zen coupons and Zen sales) should have happened *years* ago.

    Still, making all new Zen purchases Bound while leaving the current ones alone would fix the problem eventually.

    STO gets around this by making the Zen-purchased unbound items.... not great. Cosmetic, niche, sometimes useful, but not great. All the really good stuff in the Zen market is toon/account bound, and there's a lot of that.
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Posts: 3,166Member Arc User
    edited November 2018
    sly1#7945 said:

    Am rich from doing this and there's nothing you can do about it muhahahah

    lowjohn said:

    Agreed, this (or the elimination of Zen coupons and Zen sales) should have happened *years* ago.

    Still, making all new Zen purchases Bound while leaving the current ones alone would fix the problem eventually.

    STO gets around this by making the Zen-purchased unbound items.... not great. Cosmetic, niche, sometimes useful, but not great. All the really good stuff in the Zen market is toon/account bound, and there's a lot of that.

    They could also move some of the items that are in the zen store to the Wonderous Bazaar; such as Pres and Coal wards. This way player wanting to flip can still flip but it would be AD for AD and not AD to Zen to item to AD back to Zen.

  • ecrana#2080 ecrana Posts: 1,378Member Arc User

    Doing what you suggest would impact all platforms, including Xbox which currently has no Zen backlog and PS4 whose backlog is not nearly as bad as PC. It would also decrease the amount of revenue Cryptic makes. Many people buy items for Zen (and use a discount coupon if possible), with the explicit intent to sell at least some of those items to other players on the AH.

    The people complaining aren't concerned at all with other platforms, the company making money off sales, etc etc. They're only concerned with how the backlog affects them. And they have that right just as much as people who sell items have the right to say that this is one of the most self serving ideas ever brought up.

    The biggest issue you would bring into play would directly impact Cryptic's bottom line. So yeah, you'll just have to pay your 500:1 ratio as long as Zen sales keep money going into the company's pockets.
  • autumnwitchautumnwitch Posts: 476Member Arc User
    I would agree with you but there would be no way for some players to ever get the Coals otherwise. Many of the upgrades are 5% or less and pres wards are useless in those circumstances. If a player busts their butt to get AD so they can buy things they can't get otherwise, why punish them? I would also suspect that there are a lot more people who really need them in the AH then people who are profiting from it.
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  • lowjohnlowjohn Posts: 1,021Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    I would agree with you but there would be no way for some players to ever get the Coals otherwise. Many of the upgrades are 5% or less and pres wards are useless in those circumstances. If a player busts their butt to get AD so they can buy things they can't get otherwise, why punish them? I would also suspect that there are a lot more people who really need them in the AH then people who are profiting from it.

    Pres Wards are not useless at 5% or 3%. It's only at 1% that they stop *usually* being better than Coal Wards.

    But the idea isn't to punish free-to-play players. Rather the opposite: When Zen-store coal wards start being bound, people MIGHT start spending Zen by trading it for AD, meaning Free-to-play players might start getting Zen faster, and not being stuck paying a penalty and a delay to buy a Coal Ward from a richer player via the AH.
  • kharkov58kharkov58 Posts: 221Member Arc User
    When Zen-store coal wards become bound, people wont be buying Zen they may have used to purchase the coal wards with.
  • lowjohnlowjohn Posts: 1,021Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    kharkov58 said:

    When Zen-store coal wards become bound, people wont be buying Zen they may have used to purchase the coal wards with.

    People will still need coal wards. So they will either buy zen using dollars to buy coal wards, or buy zen using AD (from people who bought it with dollars) to buy coal wards. Just like now.... except you won't be able to spend AD *directly* to buy coal wards on the AH, bypassing the AD->Zen and Zen->AD exchange in favour of people trading AD -> Zen and buying coal wards at a discount, then selling them when the sale is over.
  • wintersmokewintersmoke Posts: 1,404Member Arc User

    I would agree with you but there would be no way for some players to ever get the Coals otherwise. Many of the upgrades are 5% or less and pres wards are useless in those circumstances. If a player busts their butt to get AD so they can buy things they can't get otherwise, why punish them? I would also suspect that there are a lot more people who really need them in the AH then people who are profiting from it.

    This is not a future tense situation. I wrote off ever buying anything with Zen 6 months ago. It became apparent after the anniversary sale, that unless there was a ZEN store sale, there was no way to use the ZAX in less than a month. Which makes it useless. Getting Zen twice a year is ridiculous. The recent sale, which barely even caused a drop in the backlog, just confirmed it.
  • evemjevemj Posts: 73Member Arc User
    The act of placing actual money in the company's pocket should net significantly higher rewards than, say, a player having used leadership armies/exploits/crafting/just playing a lot/whatever.
    Zen store items should be BTA and way, way better.
    If you keep the ZAX, it would be another one of those AD sinks they were supposed to be looking for.

    Those Zen promos where you get ONE copy of a mount?
    Hell, you can get better or similar exchanging AD to Zen and buying an account-wide one...
    Not very enticing. Make it at least a legendary.

    Coal wards are 100% and therefore should be Zen and BTA. You want the best? Pay for it (or get lucky with dung chests and invoking or during events).
    Pres wards should be in the Bazaar and still BTA. AD sink right there for the majority of the players.

    As it is, the major reason to buy Zen is so you can convert it to AD with profit, not really acquire anything permanent. A few rich players can easily HAMSTER up the economy through the ZAX...
    VIP is available to everyone who can use the ZAX, which is stupid.
    Account-wide mounts are available to everyone who can use the ZAX, which is stupid.
    Lockbox keys are available to everyone who can use the ZAX, which is stupid.
    So on and so forth.
  • thestiathestia Posts: 294Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited December 2018
    Honestly, I can see no financial incentive to change the system from the way that things currently stand. With the zen backlog, people either wait, or the purchase zen directly. The backlog is actually a benefit to the company, since those who are too impatient to wait a month for zen will spend money with the company. They even offer incentive rewards while the sale is on and the backlog is at it's zenith to encourage people to buy during the sale. Having zen (the paid currency) in higher demand than AD (the free currency) is a direct benefit to the company, and I haven't read one reason in this thread that would make them change their minds. Give them a reason why it would give them more money, and things might change. As it is, you're just asking for them to invest resources (albeit, a small amount, but we all know that when they mess with coding, they run the risk of MORE bugs) to rewrite existing code for... what?

    The backlog is like everything else in the game. If you can't wait, you pay. If you weren't going to spend anything anyway, and you leave... well. That's less strain on their servers I suppose.

    A little off topic but the thing I would think would help them as a company is to offer better customer support and small compensations for their errors. When something like seals in CR is broken, give 500 zen to the community. Extended maintenance? 100 zen. Not only would that garner some goodwill, but in some cases, people would be hoping for a bug. Who knows? Maybe it would even give the company some incentives to fix existing bugs faster.
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Posts: 3,166Member Arc User
    thestia said:

    Honestly, I can see no financial incentive to change the system from the way that things currently stand. With the zen backlog, people either wait, or the purchase zen directly. The backlog is actually a benefit to the company, since those who are too impatient to wait a month for zen will spend money with the company. They even offer incentive rewards while the sale is on and the backlog is at it's zenith to encourage people to buy during the sale. Having zen (the paid currency) in higher demand than AD (the free currency) is a direct benefit to the company, and I haven't read one reason in this thread that would make them change their minds. Give them a reason why it would give them more money, and things might change. As it is, you're just asking for them to invest resources (albeit, a small amount, but we all know that when they mess with coding, they run the risk of MORE bugs) to rewrite existing code for... what?

    The backlog is like everything else in the game. If you can't wait, you pay. If you weren't going to spend anything anyway, and you leave... well. That's less strain on their servers I suppose.

    A little off topic but the thing I would think would help them as a company is to offer better customer support and small compensations for their errors. When something like seals in CR is broken, give 500 zen to the community. Extended maintenance? 100 zen. Not only would that garner some goodwill, but in some cases, people would be hoping for a bug. Who knows? Maybe it would even give the company some incentives to fix existing bugs faster.

    Backlog is not benefiting the company and here is why. The cost of a legendary mount will not change much if zen is 500 or 300. Right now the average low legendary mount AD cost is around 7M. Using the current 500AD to 1 zen conversion the company is earning around $125-150 for players converting Zen to AD to buy a legendary mount. Now instead of spending around $150 you are now spending $225 to get a legendary mount. This exchange benefits the player swapping AD to Zen and Cryptic. The only players hurt by this are those BUYING into the game to achieve higher rank items faster.

    The backlog exist because players who buy low and sell high are causing it. As I already pointed out a player just using 1K zen can generate 2K zen through pres wards. If the player does it right that 2K than become 4K, 4k become 8K, etc... I know one player that did this and now has around 50K of zen he uses and any AD gains he get he uses to buy low and sell high on other items in the AH. He is one of many players hurting the zen exchange and the AH.

    One solution is BTA all zen items. No more flipping companions, wards, etc...

    In fact if I would do it immediately with Tuesday patch and not tell any one and make all of the ones on the player account bound. Than I would also remove all wards from the AH and make those bound as well.

    By doing this players who thought they would flip and earn a nice profit would now be sitting on thousands of wards and all bound to account. This would greatly reduce the backlog and help other areas in the game like the AH pricing.

    Cryptic would win out on this as the pricing of the zen would drop and this would allow them to earn more as I pointed out above with the legendary mount. This change would be a positive for newer players who are currently over paying for wards and other items in the AH other than the truly top end items like a legendary mount, etc...

    As another player point out Pres Wards should be moved to the Bazaar and Coal wards should be stay in the zen.

    I'm all for these changes as long as it makes a positive impact to the game and new players.

    Leaving the current system as is only benefits a few and if anything it is why some players quit after a short amount of time.




  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Posts: 3,166Member Arc User

    Doing what you suggest would impact all platforms, including Xbox which currently has no Zen backlog and PS4 whose backlog is not nearly as bad as PC. It would also decrease the amount of revenue Cryptic makes. Many people buy items for Zen (and use a discount coupon if possible), with the explicit intent to sell at least some of those items to other players on the AH.

    How would lower pricing for converting AD to Zen hurt cryptic. Players swapping Zen for AD are buying higher AD priced items in the AH. If this happens it would take more zen to acquire the higher priced items, making Cryptic more money, not less.
  • namelesshero347namelesshero347 Posts: 1,963Member Arc User


    Making all zen purchase account bound items would eliminate the backlog we see today for the zen exchange.

    I don't think so. While making all zen store items BtA will probably alleviate some of the backlog, zen will still be in demand because it is the preferred currency to hold. Why not since holding zen cost nothing. And there is also the possibility the rate cap gets lifted.

  • dupeksdupeks Posts: 1,789Member Arc User
    It's challenging, since this game has to balance two different yet interdependent economies: the in-game economy and the real-world profitability of the game. I think almost all of the consideration in this thread has been paid to the former.

    But moving all Zen items to be BtA would dramatically reduce the desirability of Zen, which would throw the real-world $$ into chaos. Which would risk shutting the game down entirely.

    The Zen backlog is a symptom of Zen being in demand and the artificial AD cap on the exchange. You could see put'z explanations about economy somewhere but there are good reasons for why things are the way they are. And changes to this core economy mechanic could be quite perilous for the game.
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Posts: 3,166Member Arc User
    dupeks said:

    It's challenging, since this game has to balance two different yet interdependent economies: the in-game economy and the real-world profitability of the game. I think almost all of the consideration in this thread has been paid to the former.

    But moving all Zen items to be BtA would dramatically reduce the desirability of Zen, which would throw the real-world $$ into chaos. Which would risk shutting the game down entirely.

    The Zen backlog is a symptom of Zen being in demand and the artificial AD cap on the exchange. You could see put'z explanations about economy somewhere but there are good reasons for why things are the way they are. And changes to this core economy mechanic could be quite perilous for the game.

    How would zen not be desired? Newer players are more incline to swap zen for keys. Players that want to surpass waiting for their character will still buy their characters up. When the zen exchange was around 300-350 on PS4 I know plenty of players that were buying end game gear without a thought; this would not change. What would change is players flipping zen items that are on sale for a major profit, not for the company but for the players themselves. The game longevity relies on revenue and the less AD a player can acquire with zen the more profitable it is for Cryptic. Making items that player flip BtA would help lower the exchange which would make a positive impact to cryptic and the game longevity.

    By the way, zen was in demand mainly for flipping it for a profit by many players on PS4. I talked to quite a few and many were doing this, mostly end game players that run 1 character but use there 10+ for storage for the zen items they purchased to flip. Who is profiting when a player is simply earning AD at an alarming rate simply by flipping on sale zen items.

    As I pointed out a player will typically earn 2x the AD they invested than reinvest and repeat this process. Using this method a player can easily go from 1K zen to 100K zen without really trying. Since 11K zen cost $100 cryptic is actually losing around $100-1,000 per a player who does this when they flip items. If these players didn't earn 2x the AD per a zen item flip they would have to earn AD in game through other methods, or try flipping with keys and that is a HAMSTER shoot when compared to items on the zen store that typically sell well such as companions and wards.

    I using the forums to inform cryptic they are losing money and quite a bit. I'm surprised nothing was done sooner.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Posts: 2,865Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    thestia said:

    Honestly, I can see no financial incentive to change the system from the way that things currently stand. With the zen backlog, people either wait, or the purchase zen directly. The backlog is actually a benefit to the company, since those who are too impatient to wait a month for zen will spend money with the company. They even offer incentive rewards while the sale is on and the backlog is at it's zenith to encourage people to buy during the sale. Having zen (the paid currency) in higher demand than AD (the free currency) is a direct benefit to the company, and I haven't read one reason in this thread that would make them change their minds. Give them a reason why it would give them more money, and things might change. As it is, you're just asking for them to invest resources (albeit, a small amount, but we all know that when they mess with coding, they run the risk of MORE bugs) to rewrite existing code for... what?

    The backlog is like everything else in the game. If you can't wait, you pay. If you weren't going to spend anything anyway, and you leave... well. That's less strain on their servers I suppose.

    A little off topic but the thing I would think would help them as a company is to offer better customer support and small compensations for their errors. When something like seals in CR is broken, give 500 zen to the community. Extended maintenance? 100 zen. Not only would that garner some goodwill, but in some cases, people would be hoping for a bug. Who knows? Maybe it would even give the company some incentives to fix existing bugs faster.

    Backlog is not benefiting the company and here is why. The cost of a legendary mount will not change much if zen is 500 or 300. Right now the average low legendary mount AD cost is around 7M. Using the current 500AD to 1 zen conversion the company is earning around $125-150 for players converting Zen to AD to buy a legendary mount. Now instead of spending around $150 you are now spending $225 to get a legendary mount. This exchange benefits the player swapping AD to Zen and Cryptic. The only players hurt by this are those BUYING into the game to achieve higher rank items faster.

    The backlog exist because players who buy low and sell high are causing it. As I already pointed out a player just using 1K zen can generate 2K zen through pres wards. If the player does it right that 2K than become 4K, 4k become 8K, etc... I know one player that did this and now has around 50K of zen he uses and any AD gains he get he uses to buy low and sell high on other items in the AH. He is one of many players hurting the zen exchange and the AH.

    One solution is BTA all zen items. No more flipping companions, wards, etc...

    In fact if I would do it immediately with Tuesday patch and not tell any one and make all of the ones on the player account bound. Than I would also remove all wards from the AH and make those bound as well.

    By doing this players who thought they would flip and earn a nice profit would now be sitting on thousands of wards and all bound to account. This would greatly reduce the backlog and help other areas in the game like the AH pricing.

    Cryptic would win out on this as the pricing of the zen would drop and this would allow them to earn more as I pointed out above with the legendary mount. This change would be a positive for newer players who are currently over paying for wards and other items in the AH other than the truly top end items like a legendary mount, etc...

    As another player point out Pres Wards should be moved to the Bazaar and Coal wards should be stay in the zen.

    I'm all for these changes as long as it makes a positive impact to the game and new players.

    Leaving the current system as is only benefits a few and if anything it is why some players quit after a short amount of time.

    So much false it's hard to find where to start.

    Legendary mount drop rate was changed, they were rarer long ago, and what was their price? Yes. Lets use actual facts instead of some false claims.

    So lets start with this little fallacy and move on to why when player given choice of converting AD or buying ZEN with RM, will have more incentive to buy with RM, when the wait for conversion is 30+ days.

    And after that we can move on to the topic of AD sinks, where all AD that changed hands in the wards trade is not AD generated (e.g. dungeon / RAD) but changed hands and 10% fee was deducted.

    So lets get the facts in order before making claims about prices and implications..?
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  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Posts: 3,166Member Arc User
    micky1p00 said:

    thestia said:

    Honestly, I can see no financial incentive to change the system from the way that things currently stand. With the zen backlog, people either wait, or the purchase zen directly. The backlog is actually a benefit to the company, since those who are too impatient to wait a month for zen will spend money with the company. They even offer incentive rewards while the sale is on and the backlog is at it's zenith to encourage people to buy during the sale. Having zen (the paid currency) in higher demand than AD (the free currency) is a direct benefit to the company, and I haven't read one reason in this thread that would make them change their minds. Give them a reason why it would give them more money, and things might change. As it is, you're just asking for them to invest resources (albeit, a small amount, but we all know that when they mess with coding, they run the risk of MORE bugs) to rewrite existing code for... what?

    The backlog is like everything else in the game. If you can't wait, you pay. If you weren't going to spend anything anyway, and you leave... well. That's less strain on their servers I suppose.

    A little off topic but the thing I would think would help them as a company is to offer better customer support and small compensations for their errors. When something like seals in CR is broken, give 500 zen to the community. Extended maintenance? 100 zen. Not only would that garner some goodwill, but in some cases, people would be hoping for a bug. Who knows? Maybe it would even give the company some incentives to fix existing bugs faster.

    Backlog is not benefiting the company and here is why. The cost of a legendary mount will not change much if zen is 500 or 300. Right now the average low legendary mount AD cost is around 7M. Using the current 500AD to 1 zen conversion the company is earning around $125-150 for players converting Zen to AD to buy a legendary mount. Now instead of spending around $150 you are now spending $225 to get a legendary mount. This exchange benefits the player swapping AD to Zen and Cryptic. The only players hurt by this are those BUYING into the game to achieve higher rank items faster.

    The backlog exist because players who buy low and sell high are causing it. As I already pointed out a player just using 1K zen can generate 2K zen through pres wards. If the player does it right that 2K than become 4K, 4k become 8K, etc... I know one player that did this and now has around 50K of zen he uses and any AD gains he get he uses to buy low and sell high on other items in the AH. He is one of many players hurting the zen exchange and the AH.

    One solution is BTA all zen items. No more flipping companions, wards, etc...

    In fact if I would do it immediately with Tuesday patch and not tell any one and make all of the ones on the player account bound. Than I would also remove all wards from the AH and make those bound as well.

    By doing this players who thought they would flip and earn a nice profit would now be sitting on thousands of wards and all bound to account. This would greatly reduce the backlog and help other areas in the game like the AH pricing.

    Cryptic would win out on this as the pricing of the zen would drop and this would allow them to earn more as I pointed out above with the legendary mount. This change would be a positive for newer players who are currently over paying for wards and other items in the AH other than the truly top end items like a legendary mount, etc...

    As another player point out Pres Wards should be moved to the Bazaar and Coal wards should be stay in the zen.

    I'm all for these changes as long as it makes a positive impact to the game and new players.

    Leaving the current system as is only benefits a few and if anything it is why some players quit after a short amount of time.

    So much false it's hard to find where to start.

    Legendary mount drop rate was changed, they were rarer long ago, and what was their price? Yes. Lets use actual facts instead of some false claims.

    So lets start with this little fallacy and move on to why when player given choice of converting AD or buying ZEN with RM, will have more incentive to buy with RM, when the wait for conversion is 30+ days.

    And after that we can move on to the topic of AD sinks, where all AD that changed hands in the wards trade is not AD generated (e.g. dungeon / RAD) but changed hands and 10% fee was deducted.

    So lets get the facts in order before making claims about prices and implications..?
    Let's agree to disagree...

    Some simple fact that are pretty straight forward...dev would make more money today if all AH prices stayed the same and the zen exchange was lower. You cannot argue that fact; but what we don't know is if the AH prices will go up or down if the zen exchange goes to 300-350 rate. If the AH goes up, more money for the devs, if the AH prices go down it depends on how much items drop.

    Another thing, simple fact is players who earn their AD through the zen market item they buy low and sell high will defend that this is not part of the back log issue. Let me make this perfectly clear it is...If one player places 100M AD to convert to zen than uses that zen and makes around 200M AD and rinse and repeat said player is causing the backlog. You add to it a group of players with similar funds and it becomes a big issue. Maybe not all players have 100M AD to convert but getting even a handful of players with 5-20M doing this and it adds up. These players are simply trying to earn quick AD. This is a big problem and is part of the backlog issue.

    Take this out and now these players will have a lower nned to convert the AD to Zen as all items on the zen store would be bound to account. They may swap their AD for Zen for keys and wards but the wards now would be used to rank up enchantments they may plan to sell, etc...

    I always wonder why the devs allow us to sell zen item. They should have been bound to account since day 1.

  • dupeksdupeks Posts: 1,789Member Arc User

    Some simple fact that are pretty straight forward...dev would make more money today if all AH prices stayed the same and the zen exchange was lower. You cannot argue that fact; but what we don't know is if the AH prices will go up or down if the zen exchange goes to 300-350 rate. If the AH goes up, more money for the devs, if the AH prices go down it depends on how much items drop.

    Why would the devs make more money if the zen exchange was lower? Do you think more people would buy zen to convert into AD?

    (if your answer is yes, then I think I understand where the disconnect is)
  • lowjohnlowjohn Posts: 1,021Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    dupeks said:


    The Zen backlog is a symptom of Zen being in demand and the artificial AD cap on the exchange. You could see put'z explanations about economy somewhere but there are good reasons for why things are the way they are. And changes to this core economy mechanic could be quite perilous for the game.

    Honestly, it's not the cap that's the problem. The cap is causing the backlog, but without the cap the ZAX would rise infinitely, because you can always trade Zen -> Item -> AD -> Zen and make a profit REGARDLESS of the price of Zen, so the price of Zen in AD would continue to rise without bound.

    Binding all Zenstore items would solve this problem, as would changing the AH currency away from AD. Eliminating all Zenstore discounts - no more jubilee sales, no more black friday sales, no more zen store coupons, EVER - would go a long way towards solving it. All three have downsides, and all three are about as likely as a very unlikely thing.
  • lowjohnlowjohn Posts: 1,021Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    dupeks said:

    Some simple fact that are pretty straight forward...dev would make more money today if all AH prices stayed the same and the zen exchange was lower. You cannot argue that fact; but what we don't know is if the AH prices will go up or down if the zen exchange goes to 300-350 rate. If the AH goes up, more money for the devs, if the AH prices go down it depends on how much items drop.

    Why would the devs make more money if the zen exchange was lower? Do you think more people would buy zen to convert into AD?

    (if your answer is yes, then I think I understand where the disconnect is)
    STO solved this problem with a few factors.

    #1: 99% of everything in the Zen store is bound to account, and only useful to the purchaser. You can't really spend Zen on stuff to sell in-game and make a profit. That's OK, though, because the Zen store is FULL of stuff you want to buy, for yourself.
    #2: The AH currency is NOT "AD". In STO, you buy and sell from other players using "Gold", not AD.


    So there's literally only two ways to make "AD" in STO: You can grind it and refine it yourself, or you can spend Zen for it. And spending Zen for it is not a bad option - there's a useful number of things that require "AD" and if you want to speed those up, you have no option except to spend Zen. You can't get a lockbox windfall and turn it into AD and then into Zen. But there's also a TON of good stuff in the Zen market.

    So there's ALWAYS people wanting to turn Dilithium ("AD") into Zen to get Zen store stuff, and there's ALWAYS people wanting to turn Zen into AD because that's literally the only way to get AD over the refinement cap. So with the same basic setup as Neverwinter, the STO ZAX has hovered between 250 and 400 for years on end, SPECIFICALLY because Zen->AD and AD->Zen are both incentivised, and there's no loop where you can always profit by NOT trading Zen for AD like in Neverwinter.
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Posts: 3,166Member Arc User
    dupeks said:

    Some simple fact that are pretty straight forward...dev would make more money today if all AH prices stayed the same and the zen exchange was lower. You cannot argue that fact; but what we don't know is if the AH prices will go up or down if the zen exchange goes to 300-350 rate. If the AH goes up, more money for the devs, if the AH prices go down it depends on how much items drop.

    Why would the devs make more money if the zen exchange was lower? Do you think more people would buy zen to convert into AD?

    (if your answer is yes, then I think I understand where the disconnect is)
    You think that players won't buy Zen and convert to AD for in game items they want such as buying a lego mount. Players were doing this on PS4 when the price was around 300, 350, 400 and still do at 500. The difference is at 500 the player gets more AD.

    Using myself as an example...

    DC - bought glorious lego pack when it was priced around 6.2M and the zen exchange was around 400. Cost me around $150
    CW - bought glorious lego pack when it was priced around 6.8M and zen exchange was at 500. Cost me around $125

    Tell me why the devs would not want to drop the zen exchange, they loss $25 from me alone from buying when the rate was higher. The reason is pricing on the AH didn't change with the pricing of zen and that resulted in me getting a better deal on the mount.

    The devs are aware where the sweet spot is financially and my guess is around 350 or so. Even getting it down to 400 would help them out. The pricing of AH items really don't change much when the zen exchange is around 350-500, so dropping the zen exchange would benefit them.

    I waited until the zen exchanged rose to 400 on DC and the mount pricing did not change. I did the same with my CW. Right now if I wanted I could get a Reborn pack for around $125. Chances are that price on the pack won't go down but dropping the zen exchange to 400 and now players wanting to buy AD straight up for a lego mount have to use more money to acquire one.

    As a business why wouldn't they want to make this change? Why wouldn't they want to earn more money?



  • namelesshero347namelesshero347 Posts: 1,963Member Arc User


    You think that players won't buy Zen and convert to AD for in game items they want such as buying a lego mount. Players were doing this on PS4 when the price was around 300, 350, 400 and still do at 500. The difference is at 500 the player gets more AD.

    Most people will convert zen to AD to buy something they want now regardless of the rate. Pushing the rate down won't change this. Except maybe a bust of buying at the beginning as people try to get the max 500 before it goes much lower. This will only happen if people believe the rate will go lower. Which is highly unlikely to happen anytime soon, if ever.

    Even if all zen store items were bound tomorrow, there is no way to know how much the backlog will go down. You seem to be assuming that people are using all their zen to flip. The reality is most people are using 20% coupons, which doesn't happen often. The margins for flipping at full price is not worth the effort for the risk.

    Until people believe the backlog is going away, people will continue to hoard zen so they can buy whatever they want whenever.
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Posts: 3,166Member Arc User


    You think that players won't buy Zen and convert to AD for in game items they want such as buying a lego mount. Players were doing this on PS4 when the price was around 300, 350, 400 and still do at 500. The difference is at 500 the player gets more AD.

    Most people will convert zen to AD to buy something they want now regardless of the rate. Pushing the rate down won't change this. Except maybe a bust of buying at the beginning as people try to get the max 500 before it goes much lower. This will only happen if people believe the rate will go lower. Which is highly unlikely to happen anytime soon, if ever.

    Even if all zen store items were bound tomorrow, there is no way to know how much the backlog will go down. You seem to be assuming that people are using all their zen to flip. The reality is most people are using 20% coupons, which doesn't happen often. The margins for flipping at full price is not worth the effort for the risk.

    Until people believe the backlog is going away, people will continue to hoard zen so they can buy whatever they want whenever.
    I know plenty of players that hoard zen and used it during the sale to flip. When I say plenty I'm talking players that hoarded around 100K+ zen with less than 10 players and all are flipping. I know they are not alone and that 100K if flipped correctly next time will be 200K and all they did was buy and sell without putting a dime into the this game.

    And the these players have been doing this since PS4 had sales like this. Hmm....wonder why they have so much zen. One of them admitted he never ran any content in this game and has no desire; he simply is here to earn a living.

    Hmm....flipping is allowing a player to earning a living. makes you wonder how many others are selling items that is breaking the ToS with cryptic.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Posts: 2,865Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User


    You think that players won't buy Zen and convert to AD for in game items they want such as buying a lego mount. Players were doing this on PS4 when the price was around 300, 350, 400 and still do at 500. The difference is at 500 the player gets more AD.

    Most people will convert zen to AD to buy something they want now regardless of the rate. Pushing the rate down won't change this. Except maybe a bust of buying at the beginning as people try to get the max 500 before it goes much lower. This will only happen if people believe the rate will go lower. Which is highly unlikely to happen anytime soon, if ever.

    Even if all zen store items were bound tomorrow, there is no way to know how much the backlog will go down. You seem to be assuming that people are using all their zen to flip. The reality is most people are using 20% coupons, which doesn't happen often. The margins for flipping at full price is not worth the effort for the risk.

    Until people believe the backlog is going away, people will continue to hoard zen so they can buy whatever they want whenever.
    I know plenty of players that hoard zen and used it during the sale to flip. When I say plenty I'm talking players that hoarded around 100K+ zen with less than 10 players and all are flipping. I know they are not alone and that 100K if flipped correctly next time will be 200K and all they did was buy and sell without putting a dime into the this game.

    And the these players have been doing this since PS4 had sales like this. Hmm....wonder why they have so much zen. One of them admitted he never ran any content in this game and has no desire; he simply is here to earn a living.

    Hmm....flipping is allowing a player to earning a living. makes you wonder how many others are selling items that is breaking the ToS with cryptic.
    We also know that there are players who make a living by running dungeons and selling. And we know that there are players who make a living by crafting and selling. And we know that some of them must be posting on the forums.

    Makes you wonder, how many others breaking the ToS with cryptic. Makes you wonder if someone trying to remove the competition to make a better living?

    ------

    Do not twist things, or imply HAMSTER, it works in all directions, as provided in the example above.
    It is selling for RM is what not allowed, how the AD is made is not relevant. Or you imply that crafting / botting dungeons and selling and making a living is ok?
    Guild: The Imaginary Friends
    If you disagree with me: My opinions are my own and do not reflect on my guild and friends.
    If you agree with me: My opinions are totally the guild official policy !
    ;)
  • wintersmokewintersmoke Posts: 1,404Member Arc User
    micky1p00 said:


    You think that players won't buy Zen and convert to AD for in game items they want such as buying a lego mount. Players were doing this on PS4 when the price was around 300, 350, 400 and still do at 500. The difference is at 500 the player gets more AD.

    Most people will convert zen to AD to buy something they want now regardless of the rate. Pushing the rate down won't change this. Except maybe a bust of buying at the beginning as people try to get the max 500 before it goes much lower. This will only happen if people believe the rate will go lower. Which is highly unlikely to happen anytime soon, if ever.

    Even if all zen store items were bound tomorrow, there is no way to know how much the backlog will go down. You seem to be assuming that people are using all their zen to flip. The reality is most people are using 20% coupons, which doesn't happen often. The margins for flipping at full price is not worth the effort for the risk.

    Until people believe the backlog is going away, people will continue to hoard zen so they can buy whatever they want whenever.
    I know plenty of players that hoard zen and used it during the sale to flip. When I say plenty I'm talking players that hoarded around 100K+ zen with less than 10 players and all are flipping. I know they are not alone and that 100K if flipped correctly next time will be 200K and all they did was buy and sell without putting a dime into the this game.

    And the these players have been doing this since PS4 had sales like this. Hmm....wonder why they have so much zen. One of them admitted he never ran any content in this game and has no desire; he simply is here to earn a living.

    Hmm....flipping is allowing a player to earning a living. makes you wonder how many others are selling items that is breaking the ToS with cryptic.
    We also know that there are players who make a living by running dungeons and selling. And we know that there are players who make a living by crafting and selling. And we know that some of them must be posting on the forums.

    Makes you wonder, how many others breaking the ToS with cryptic. Makes you wonder if someone trying to remove the competition to make a better living?

    ------

    Do not twist things, or imply HAMSTER, it works in all directions, as provided in the example above.
    It is selling for RM is what not allowed, how the AD is made is not relevant. Or you imply that crafting / botting dungeons and selling and making a living is ok?
    The part of the quote that you left out is more interesting than the changes you made...
This discussion has been closed.