THE RIGHT WAY TO DO RQs

athena

Ok here is my suggestion for changing the RQ system so is more player friendly:

1. Make the random map known to the player. Some maps i can NOT do at 11.2k IL, CN, FBI, MSP for instance
2. Make a decline penalty of 5 to 15 minutes. If you know what you cannot do (or don't want to do) then a small penalty for declining is reasonable. (first decline 5 min, second 10 min, third and on 15 min) If they go into map and leave that is 30 min so decline penalty is better.
3. Make the random map recognize the IL of the player and have relevant maps for them. For instance MSP should NOT be run by anyone under 13k period !!! even though RAQ says 11k. So make the IL requirements progressive on down the RQ list. IG should be 11k, CN 12k FBI 13k MSP 14k minimum.
4. Give players a 1 free decline per hour per account. (choice)
5. Increase rAD rewards so that RLQ RIQ and RAQ give more than just half of the daily allotment (since your killing salvage we will need more from RQs)
6. If a player hasn't made it to the campaign don't give the map for the RQ. For instance, don't give FBI MSVA if the player hasn't gotten to lonelywood on SKT, or completed RD to play MSP.
7. give a catagory for buffer and let the players choose which catagory they want to be under. DC can choose heal or buff OP choose any etc...

Ok structure of the RQ system. Right now you gather 3 to 5 players together then choose a map and wait for them to accept it. This is why there is soooooo many problems. Do this: have map available post map to RQers (like a barovia hunt), accepted ones get into that maps queue, when full run map. If player declines the random map doesn't cancel or the players accepted to it get disbanded from that map. Hence the reason for the 5 - 15 minute penalty.

NOTE: since you introduced barovia, the IL requirements of the dungeons/skirm/trials/epic are all out of since with what players can do. Just because i gain 1k more IL doesn't mean my toon is ready for harder dungeons to play, as i can get that 1k from just gear change at lower ILs. A fresh 70 can get 9k IL easy without any boons or any skill to back them up. 11k can get with barely anything and a few boons, and get squashed by medium-hard mobs in RQs.

greywynd

One issue is: if you know there is content in a specific random queue that you cannot do, do not queue for it. Simple as that. Which as I recall was also suggested when the random system went live.

majorcharvenak

You might want to lock out a dungeons that have additional requirements besides min IL. I'm thinking like preventing folks from going to FBI if they don't have sufficient EF resistance. I've RAQ a couple of times and ran into players with none at all.

greywynd

I agree, that shouldn't be happening. If a player doesn't have all requirements unlocked for a given dungeon, then that tier of randoms should be locked.

namelesshero347

One of the stated goals was to have a more broader range of content being played. Showing the players what map they draw and eliminating, or significantly reducing, the penalty works against that goal.

Generally, the best systems are the simplest systems. Ignoring unlock requirements probably made things easier on the implementation side.

iLvl requirements are fine. The problem is how easy it is to inflate iLvl now. There really isn't any dungeons that one "cannot do". Carries are possible in almost all the dungeons. The other day I was in a CR group where one 16K GWF carried the other two DPS to the last boss (of course this requires a very capable tank and buffer to go with the monster dps). We couldn't finish it due to survive-ability issues (tip to the new players, be prepared with scrolls, you never know when you can be carried to the end, you still need to contribute at the last boss due to the mechanics).

namelesshero347

Mod 13 had the unlock requirement for the random epic queue. This was great for players who did all the mods (only problem was the 3-man IG gangs looking to take well-geared hostages). Everyone else complained about not being able to get in. Now everyone can get in and all the veterans complain about inexperienced players with inflated iLvl.

athena

Try running CN FBI or MSP with all 11.0k players, it can't be done.

callumf

athena#9205 said:

Try running CN FBI or MSP with all 11.0k players, it can't be done.

You will get plenty of people who tell you they can sadly.

The reality is that pugging FBI has led to about 20 fails/give ups and 1 success - thats a fact.

Pugging CN is about 50/50

MSP I just lol and leave the instance and take the penalty

hercules125

What I wish they'd do:

1. Increase the minimum IL across the board for reasonable chance of success by a PUG.

2. Change the random queue to where you pick 3 dungeons/skirmishes that you like and it picks one of the three. That way you know you'll be queued with people who actually are interested in doing the same thing. ( also alleviates the issue with IG somewhat)

athena

true about IG, i mentioned in one of my other posts that IG should be in RIQ and CN in RAQ to balance them out. and yes making RIQ 10k RAQ 12k and REQ 14k IL min will go a long way to balancing them out properly.

namelesshero347

In the early days of mod 14, I had good success in RAQ doing FBI and mSP. Then the success rate started going down as the newer vistani heroes hit 11K and started going into RAQ. The same thing was happening to a lesser extent in REQ with vistani whales because 13, 14, and even 15K is easily achieved by spending some money.

It is the players, not the iLvl. Assuming these players start learning how to play better, success rate should improve. Besides, rejigging the dungeon iLvl will require work that I don't think the devs want to commit to.

callumf

athena#9205 said:

true about IG, i mentioned in one of my other posts that IG should be in RIQ and CN in RAQ to balance them out. and yes making RIQ 10k RAQ 12k and REQ 14k IL min will go a long way to balancing them out properly.

To be fair IG is relatively easy for one higher end player to carry a group to bronze.

I did this recently, took ages to get to bronze then they voted to stay.

I lolled as they all died repeatedly and carried them to silver, then funnily enough everyone voted to leave

namelesshero347

IG is perfect where it is now in RLQ. Putting it in a higher queue would be going back to the days of vote rigging, AFK protesting, and AFK reporting. A group of sub-70s should be able to do bronze. Even if they fail, the random queuers still get their RAD.

minotaur2857

The problem with the system as is has been exemplified by the long run of successive tiamats I got (RIQ). For more than a week I got tiamat every day, so I don't get the cache after the first one each week, I already have the boons complete on that char (which is the one I want to run RIQ on for some of the other currencies I might get). How about allowing us to exclude anything that has a weekly reward once we've got that reward if we want to ?

namelesshero347

There is a weekly cache in tiamat? Well, the whole point of RQ is RAD. You do get rewards for the completion. And if you do the portal weekly, you can also make the key for the chest. It's the most rewarding of all the RIQ runs. If you have a char that still needs boons, why not queue tiamat directly and help others get tiamat for their RQ

I like getting tiamat, especially the single phase runs. The only annoying thing is finding AFKs to kick. The easy ones to find are the dumb ones sitting in camp. Then there are the slick ones who try to hide in plain sight by AFKing in the middle.

nunya

Wait, what? You can't do CN with an 11k character? Are you sure you're not talking about CR? My wife and I have been running CN since we were high 10k - pugging it - and succeeding. At this point, her warlock is 14k, mine is 13.8k, and my paladin is 13.1k. We can complete it with either of my characters in the mix and without anyone else. It'll take a while without anyone else, but it can be done. We regularly end up in CN with 8.4k to 9.Xk characters and don't fail.

reg1981

I do not agree with the decline penalty at all.

When I run randoms I run as my DC, there is no wait time for a DC. You queue, it pops. That said, there are lots of times as soon as I hit queue one of the kids call me and I have to decline. I could be gone 5 seconds or 50 minutes, who knows. It's gonna suck if I'm stuck waiting 15 mins to queue again because someone couldn't reach a glass in the cupboard.

The other side of this coin is the leaver penalty, I'm a victim of this from time to time for the very same reason. If I have to drop on a group, I deserve the penalty. If I decline before the group forms I do not deserve to be penalized. IMO

The only question I have about the OP is how does one know what to decline? It's a mystery until your actually in the party is it not? Is there a change coming I don't know about?

Also, if memory serves you can't queue for FBI without EF resist nor can you queue for randoms. Loop hole is to wear EF gear until your in the run, then swap gear. Or play STK intro and get the 30% potion when you open lonelywood.

callumf

nunya#5309 said:

Wait, what? You can't do CN with an 11k character? Are you sure you're not talking about CR? My wife and I have been running CN since we were high 10k - pugging it - and succeeding. At this point, her warlock is 14k, mine is 13.8k, and my paladin is 13.1k. We can complete it with either of my characters in the mix and without anyone else. It'll take a while without anyone else, but it can be done. We regularly end up in CN with 8.4k to 9.Xk characters and don't fail.

By fail I mean having to carry a group or wasting a LOT of time in there, which leads to me leaving and taking the penalty. One group wiped on the first boss mob one time, another didnt have the dps to take down Orcus - after about 10 minutes he was still at about 90% health.

Maybe 50/50 is a little pessimistic, but certainly I leave CN 2 or 3 times out of 10 [I admit I dont keep records]

pitshade

RAQ doesn't require EF resist or that any of the content be unlocked. Direcly queuing for specific content wasn't changed. You can do RAQ and get FBI even though you might not be able to directly queue for the dungeon itself.

Beyond that, each queue spells out the possible dungeons, etc... If you can't or won't do that content, don't enter the queue. This was specifically addressed by Asterdahl. When you enter the random queue, you are telling the game that you will do whatever content that you are given.

In the same vein, when you enter the queue solo, you are waiving your control over who you get grouped with. You are effectively telling the game that anyone is ok who meets the queue requirements. If this isn't acceptable to you, don't solo queue.

spartypants17

@nunya#5309 there’s a huge difference between being able to complete a dungeon through basic understanding of mechanics and roles, and speeding through it without any threat of dying. I think people are referring to the latter.

I’ve main DPS’d CN on an 11k templock, where I was the highest IL toon present, in ~20 minutes. I could complete IGG in about the same amount of time on the same toon at 13k. So I agree with you that the IL requirements some people are calling for seem horrendously inflated. But perhaps they are looking for brainless runs.

That said, I also find RAQ and REQ are littered with DPS’s with terrifically inflated IL (getting more IL by not running the Demo set, Vistani weapons, random Barovia salvage gear, etc). I even had an REQ ToNG the other day where two of the DPS had companions with no bondings (both legendary, not Augments). So there is certainly something to be said for properly geared toons who meet the IL requirements.

nunya

callumf#9018 said:

nunya#5309 said:

Wait, what? You can't do CN with an 11k character? Are you sure you're not talking about CR? My wife and I have been running CN since we were high 10k - pugging it - and succeeding. At this point, her warlock is 14k, mine is 13.8k, and my paladin is 13.1k. We can complete it with either of my characters in the mix and without anyone else. It'll take a while without anyone else, but it can be done. We regularly end up in CN with 8.4k to 9.Xk characters and don't fail.

By fail I mean having to carry a group or wasting a LOT of time in there, which leads to me leaving and taking the penalty. One group wiped on the first boss mob one time, another didnt have the dps to take down Orcus - after about 10 minutes he was still at about 90% health.

Maybe 50/50 is a little pessimistic, but certainly I leave CN 2 or 3 times out of 10 [I admit I dont keep records]

Now that I understand your definition, I can agree with it. We sometimes end up in groups where we are carrying the other three people. My wife will often run 1 or 2 of these after I've gone to bed. She's been in groups where she's the only one left alive against Orcus and it takes an hour or more to complete. She doesn't abandon because of her sunk costs (re: time) and because she'd rather be in the dungeon than waiting to be in the dungeon. I've been the tank before and been told I'm a terrible tank; yet, I'm holding aggro and the surviving the Orcus fight (whereas my critic is often on the floor or warming themselves at the campfire). We've found it's actually easier to run our two warlocks, with me running in Temptation because I have 20% more lifesteal than she does (when she's in Temptation). Her soul puppet (or me, when it's dead) can tank Orcus if everyone else falls.

minotaur2857

namelesshero347 said:

There is a weekly cache in tiamat? Well, the whole point of RQ is RAD. You do get rewards for the completion. And if you do the portal weekly, you can also make the key for the chest. It's the most rewarding of all the RIQ runs. If you have a char that still needs boons, why not queue tiamat directly and help others get tiamat for their RQ

I like getting tiamat, especially the single phase runs. The only annoying thing is finding AFKs to kick. The easy ones to find are the dumb ones sitting in camp. Then there are the slick ones who try to hide in plain sight by AFKing in the middle.

Yes, black opal and a gems voucher. It's true of all of them though, 5 PoMs in a row before the tiamats, some of the tias good, others took 3 rounds as playing an indifferent 14K DPS I was in second place on 165M if I got the DP in the right place, 110M higher than 3rd.

athena

reg1981 said:

I do not agree with the decline penalty at all.

When I run randoms I run as my DC, there is no wait time for a DC. You queue, it pops. That said, there are lots of times as soon as I hit queue one of the kids call me and I have to decline. I could be gone 5 seconds or 50 minutes, who knows. It's gonna suck if I'm stuck waiting 15 mins to queue again because someone couldn't reach a glass in the cupboard.

The other side of this coin is the leaver penalty, I'm a victim of this from time to time for the very same reason. If I have to drop on a group, I deserve the penalty. If I decline before the group forms I do not deserve to be penalized. IMO

The only question I have about the OP is how does one know what to decline? It's a mystery until your actually in the party is it not? Is there a change coming I don't know about?

Also, if memory serves you can't queue for FBI without EF resist nor can you queue for randoms. Loop hole is to wear EF gear until your in the run, then swap gear. Or play STK intro and get the 30% potion when you open lonelywood.

The leaver penalty was for those who choose not to run the known random. and i said first penalty is 5 min second is 10 third and on is 15. Those are reasonable even if you have to decline to go get your kid a drink. since we don't have a known Q there is no reason for a decline penalty. And I did mention a free decline once per hour per account.

athena

spartypants17#3844 said:

I also find RAQ and REQ are littered with DPS’s with terrifically inflated IL (getting more IL by not running the Demo set, Vistani weapons, random Barovia salvage gear, etc). I even had an REQ ToNG the other day where two of the DPS had companions with no bondings (both legendary, not Augments). So there is certainly something to be said for properly geared toons who meet the IL requirements.

I once posted that the IL part should be replaced with a calculation of gear score. This calculation would take in enchants, insignias, mounts, companions, armor, jewelry, weapons, etc... and would rank it by rare being 1 point, epic 2, legend 4, and mythic 8. By calculating these out and giving a point value to reach for RIQ RAQ REQ you could more accurately encourage players who actually can compete in those because they are properly outfitted. In this method, cryptic could keep making more and more powerful gear as they are doing now, but it wouldn't change the score as epic would replace epic.

namelesshero347

athena#9205 said:

The leaver penalty was for those who choose not to run the known random. and i said first penalty is 5 min second is 10 third and on is 15. Those are reasonable even if you have to decline to go get your kid a drink. since we don't have a known Q there is no reason for a decline penalty. And I did mention a free decline once per hour per account.

5 minutes? everyone will leave for any small reason. As someone who makes liberal use of the penalty, I don't think it is harsh enough. I think it should be 30 minutes and double for each successive penalty, one hour, two hour, etc. But single 30 minute is simpler.

If you go into an instance and get pulled away immediately, then just post in chat you need a minute or two. Usually people don't mind if you tell them.

krsbaws

I like the #7 suggestion as it would probably lead to smoother runs, however would probably lead to further abuse.

I have 3x 16k ilvl+ characters (gwf, dc, op) and am happiest doing a random queue with my gwf even though this is probably the character i am worst at playing!

Why?

Because its a lot easier to carry a run as dps; no amount of buffing is going to help 3 <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> dps in tong!

namelesshero347

krsbaws said:

Because its a lot easier to carry a run as dps; no amount of buffing is going to help 3 HAMSTER dps in tong!

That may be true. But using your OP/DC guarantees a good tank/heal. You then just need a good heal/tank and one superstar DPS or two decent DPS. You have to be pretty unlucky to end up with three HAMSTER dps. Given how much iLvl inflation there has been, its hard to tell if a 15K, or even 16K, DPS is actually good. Good thing Orcus is a DPS race. If there isn't enough DPS there, I start the vote abandon and the most I've lost is around 15 minutes.

ecrana

athena#9205 said:

Ok here is my suggestion for changing the RQ system so is more player friendly:

1. Make the random map known to the player. Some maps i can NOT do at 11.2k IL, CN, FBI, MSP for instance
2. Make a decline penalty of 5 to 15 minutes. If you know what you cannot do (or don't want to do) then a small penalty for declining is reasonable. (first decline 5 min, second 10 min, third and on 15 min) If they go into map and leave that is 30 min so decline penalty is better.
3. Make the random map recognize the IL of the player and have relevant maps for them. For instance MSP should NOT be run by anyone under 13k period !!! even though RAQ says 11k. So make the IL requirements progressive on down the RQ list. IG should be 11k, CN 12k FBI 13k MSP 14k minimum.
4. Give players a 1 free decline per hour per account. (choice)
5. Increase rAD rewards so that RLQ RIQ and RAQ give more than just half of the daily allotment (since your killing salvage we will need more from RQs)
6. If a player hasn't made it to the campaign don't give the map for the RQ. For instance, don't give FBI MSVA if the player hasn't gotten to lonelywood on SKT, or completed RD to play MSP.
7. give a catagory for buffer and let the players choose which catagory they want to be under. DC can choose heal or buff OP choose any etc...

Ok structure of the RQ system. Right now you gather 3 to 5 players together then choose a map and wait for them to accept it. This is why there is soooooo many problems. Do this: have map available post map to RQers (like a barovia hunt), accepted ones get into that maps queue, when full run map. If player declines the random map doesn't cancel or the players accepted to it get disbanded from that map. Hence the reason for the 5 - 15 minute penalty.

NOTE: since you introduced barovia, the IL requirements of the dungeons/skirm/trials/epic are all out of since with what players can do. Just because i gain 1k more IL doesn't mean my toon is ready for harder dungeons to play, as i can get that 1k from just gear change at lower ILs. A fresh 70 can get 9k IL easy without any boons or any skill to back them up. 11k can get with barely anything and a few boons, and get squashed by medium-hard mobs in RQs.

1 - seems like an easy and obvious no from the devs view since they removed a glitch that let people see what was queuing
2 - i'm firmly against punishing people for declining a queue for any reason
3 - i agree that ILs are off for some dungeons and need to be rethought but this just seems to convolute the current system
4 - since im against 2 this is invalid for me
5 - probably the one point you've made that most, if not all, players would give a thumbs up
6 - is this not already a thing? i thought if you didnt have MSP unlocked you couldn't run the queue that includes MSP. (forgive me if i'm wrong here because I seldom RQ since I think the whole system is a huge HAMSTER)
7 - im pretty sure they're heading down a road like this based off dev comments lately
8 - I could be remembering this wrong. I feel like there was a point ages ago when, if the queue hit 0 seconds and you had 4/5, the dungeon/skirm would load and you could start while it tried to fill the last slot. Not sure why this went away if it was a thing.

I feel like a good part of the community is still against the idea of random queues for multiple reasons. All of these alternative ideas that perpetuate randomness are just attempts to try and polish up a HAMSTER.

athena

the idea behind my RQ system as opposed to the current one is that right now you get put into a Q you have no idea about, and its barely random as it is. Some dungeons i don't want to play for they take forever or are too hard for my IL. The idea i'm proposing is that you get to chose if you want to get into the Randomly selected Q in the first place and is able to decline knowing what you are rejecting.

Its kinda like the Christmas parties where you are given a present from a random person and you don't know if its a nice item or some grandmas over-stitched crochet sweater that is 3x too large for you. mine would be like that person saying, its a ming vase if you want it keep otherwise give it back i'll take it to someone else.

namelesshero347

athena#9205 said:

The idea i'm proposing is that you get to chose if you want to get into the Randomly selected Q in the first place and is able to decline knowing what you are rejecting.

Before RQ, the choice was eToS and eSoT. The devs want a broader range of content to run. Giving players a choice goes against this. You do have a choice to take a 30 min penalty instead of running what you are given.

namelesshero347

ecrana#2080 said:

6 - is this not already a thing? i thought if you didnt have MSP unlocked you couldn't run the queue that includes MSP. (forgive me if i'm wrong here because I seldom RQ since I think the whole system is a huge HAMSTER)

Pretty much the only thing that needs unlock is CR to get into REQ. Everything else is only an iLvl requirement. Kind of understandable since if players have to unlock everything within an RQ to use it, then no new players would be able to RQ for anything higher than RLQ without grinding older mods or getting campaign buyouts.