The person who decided the new legendary tools should be worse then the forgehammer should seriously reconsider this. They are so bad in the new system that I will not even exchange them and instead keep my legendary tools as a memento of when they were actually useful.
While I think Legendary tools should be 'one' of the best tools, I don't think they should be the best, cause that's what gives Gond his Celestial might! But I fine if some 'disagree' with that statement. But some also have yet to try the best supplements, when paired with tools &/or artisan's, as I've only seen one maybe two try so far!
Now having said that I do think Legendary tools be given 'slightly' more than +550, perhaps a +5 but there are also quite generous already! I'm far more concerned with other tools available. Still it does seem DEVs have been listening cause they made Mastercraft II tools slightly better in 1008.a4, now giving them +25 Proficiency! They now offer +400 Proficiency and +375 Focus. I just think Focus still needs a +5.
Yet Gond I do think this is the only tool should be given all but the best, and the only one that is truly miraculous!
So I'm mostly FINE with how they've laid out the vast majority of stuff at this point. I strongly hope the Mastercraft Well-Worn tools also given +375 to offer more than Adamantine +1! But then again, why shouldn't a Adamantine +1 offer the same as a Mastercraft Well-Worn? or I could go either way...
I remember in Discussions for months BEFORE, I asked to give the Common Mastercraft tools the same 8% Quality, that all Well Worn tools in normal professions gave, with 8% Quality from the Professional Vendor. Cause the Mastercraft I - tool gave 0% and I argued, how does nothing even equate to being a tool, if it aid or assists 0%, or effectively nothing?
Yet time and again Mastercrafters attacked me, they didn't want to make it 8% easier for Mastercraft II, despite the chance without Gond was 3x-4x harder to obtain Mastercraft II, than it was for each and every level after that with Mastercraft III-V! All chances for Mastercraft III-V were at least 60%--denote the without the Gond tool. So I guess they listened to the Mastercrafters who wanted to make it harder?
So I think DEVs read, some of those posts even when they don't reply... ...but perhaps we'll see @asterdahl over the next few days catch up on the thread and respond or clarify a few things. So please be patient, and let's hope there are a still a few revisions, that still perhaps revisions still being made!
There is an issue with the material satchel. Now, I know that I can free up a lot of space there by getting rid of obsolete materials, but someone who has not followed the discussion on the Preview forum may not be aware of a significant increase in the number of slots needed, and that can cause problems.
Here is an example.
I copied over a character that had 4 free slots for materials. When I opened the profession box I got initially, some of the items ended up in the 4 empty slots, but the rest was just, well...lost...didn't go into the overflow bag or anything.
Now, I know that I could have avoided this as I said, by getting rid of obsolete materials first, but my point is that there is no indication whatsoever that it is needed.
I fully AGREE with this!
I initially thought exactly the same thing, a lot more required for Materials slots. Yet seems they didn't think it was necessary, perhaps while the total # of materials is about 5x higher, if you've levelled all professions and don't collect less than 70 level materials, you'll need 2-3x less materials if only doing 70+ projects! So it's likely FINE with the same amount of slots for most people! Still however think it be nice to at least, be given another 6 maybe 10 slots at least, cause now you have to be a lot more careful. Cause from time to time if your opening up skill nodes, dungeons chests, or enemy drop them, you'll likely require a few additional ones!
Though I'm going to be careful: To only stock and keep materials used by 70+ level materials, unless I'm levelling a new one and need them, otherwise I'll just sell them to someone else on Auction!
Post edited by strathkin on
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
edited October 2018
OK, so I spent some more time playing with the the Professions, and ran into an issue. In fact is a pretty big issue. Major issue, in fact. Not quite a showstopper, but enough to make professions much more annoying than they need to be.
The Materials Satchel is too small. Way, way too small. If this is not fixed, professions will be a major hassle - if you cannot fit all the materials you need in your stachel, you will have to endlessly swap them in an out as needed, and you will have to do that through the mail as you cannot store the materials in the bank.
Here is what I did: After getting rid of my obsolete materials, I started buying the new ones, just to be able to play with the new recipes, and the satchel filled up right away...it is far too small to hold a single stack of every material. One reason is that for the new materials, there are 3 versions, Bound, Unbound and "+1". Seriously, why do we need to have Bound (which you get through exchanging) and Unbound (which you get from the material vendor) versions of everything. It is just silly. Get rid of the Bound ones....it serves no good purpose to have those bound.
If you want to keep the Bound and Unbound versions, you need to add over 200 slots to the Professions Satchel - otherwise, increasing it by 100 or so will do (barely).
A bug: When buying materials through the "new for old" exchange, the items from Stilled Water and down can only be bought singly - for those above you can buy multiples...99 at the same time or whatever. And yes...why not have the list in alphabetical order?
Thanks for the feedback, in regards to materials above level 60, we don't plan to put them into the exchange, as we'd like for some of the new items to maintain some amount of initial value, and most of the items made with these materials significantly exceed the item level of items created with those materials which can currently be sold to the exchange.
I'm responding to myself here, but after considering feedback on this topic further, we will be making all non-masterwork resources available at the exchange. However, resources above level 60 will be priced a little on the higher side in the exchange.
Old people-assets give, in “Asset Exchange Credit”:
White: 1 Green: 2,000 Blue: 8,000 Purple: 20,000
So that means green and blue people-assets are better to have than purple ones. Is that intended? It seems like purple assets should be worth 32,000 in this scheme.
Thank you for the report about the purple artisan exchange rate, we'll look into this.
Hopefully this will be addressed in time, purple artisans should get a ton more credits. As per tools, it was a time when a mithral bezel was 500k AD...
Keep in mind we will be pricing these items roughly based on their current auction value, and not on any past values or systemic rarity. If an item once sold for a large sum but no longer does, we won't be giving you an exchange rate based on the old value, in the same way that if the system remained unchanged you could no longer get back that original value from a sale.
But I guess deciding to reduce the credit for the pack, will depend upon if Leadership Voucher Credit is an error?
Guess we'll have to wait to see how this progresses!
The increased value of leadership assets was not an error. The original values that were identical for all professions were an initial rough pass. However, as leadership assets were significantly more valuable before the professions overhaul was announced, we've adjusted their trade in value to be based on this fact.
master crafting materials are accepting normal, but not +1 goods. which is a pain as have loads of +1 goods but no normal goods for the lv2 master crafting 2nd stage in alchemy, blacksmithing, leather working, tailoring. ATM it can be hard to not make +1 goods once you've made a few.
There were cases where it was possible to make +1 versions of items that had no purpose, such as the legendary turn in items like "Steel Chef's Knife." These recipes can no longer create high-quality results to prevent obtaining an item that cannot be turned in. For material recipes that don't require +1 results, you can always sell these materials on the auction house. At the moment we do not have the ability for a quest to accept a mix of these two items, as they are actually different items on the back end. In the future we may be able to provide the ability to convert high-quality items into low-quality items. This conversion would have to be one way, of course.
All workshop levels only allow for a maximum of 32 workers.
During the level up history there is a moment they say that the delivery box and the number of workers increases with every new workshop level, unfortunately right now only the delivery box increases in number, so we are limited to only 32 workers.
The artisan workshop size has been set to a debug value to allow for testing of additional artisans, the artisan storage size will be lowered for the next preview build and release, with additional artisan stora
"I still don’t see what’s going to happen to elemental fire/water/air/earth, Elemental Aggregates, and Unified Elements."
They have yet to finish adding all the recipes into the new professions. This includes the enforcement kits which will most likely require the same inputs as before including Unified Elements, Dragon Eggs, AD Cost etc. They DO know that the kits are not there and they will be forthcoming.
I hope that some of these new recipes that they add (or that can be discovered or unlocked or whatever they do) include maces and other different weapons.
Very interesting question. I would like to know if we will still have Elemental Aggregates and Unified Elements in new mod. And, most of all... those are resources to craft Armor Reinforcement Kits... Will we still be able to craft these kits or not ? Will we have to give up reinforcements on the armor? Thanks a lot
"I still don’t see what’s going to happen to elemental fire/water/air/earth, Elemental Aggregates, and Unified Elements."
They have yet to finish adding all the recipes into the new professions. This includes the enforcement kits which will most likely require the same inputs as before including Unified Elements, Dragon Eggs, AD Cost etc. They DO know that the kits are not there and they will be forthcoming.
Those elemental resources are used in more than just the armor kits. For example, they’re used in the MW V potions in the current system, but they’ve been removed-and-replaced in the preview system as it currently stands.
More importantly, they were used extensively in the items needed to complete the MW I quests, which is what gave them an AH market value. I don’t currently see in the preview system any of the “gemmed” or “superior” or “elemental” items used in those quests, nor can I see what they might be replaced with, so I still don’t know what the value of those elemental resources is going to be.
So I was hoping for an answer from the devs….
Please devs answer those questions: 1) will we still have elemental fire/water/air/earth, Elemental Aggregates, and Unified Elements? 2) will we still have Armor Reinforcement Kits? Those are very important questions and I DO NEED an answer because I still have a lot of those resources and I would like to know what are they going to become in the new module!
Please we need an answer for that. Having or not Armor Reinforcement Kits is a very important difference: we will have less power, less gs, less Critical Hit if we won't have reinforcementes. Do something about that and please answer our questions. And again: if you change expensive items in worthless items, it could make difference for us. I think that all elemental items will be changed in worthless items, but please BE CLEAR about that.
I had already responded to the armor kit question and it was mentioned in the patch notes, which is why I had not responded again, but I'll say that they should be in this week's preview build that just went out, or if not, the very next build.
In regards to elemental resources, they will be converted like other resources, but aggregates and unified elements will have higher than average conversion rates based on their auction house values before the overhaul announcement.
Yea I agree @adinosii - though as I denoted above, if you carefully to only collect &/or gather resources, for the level each of your professions is at, despite there being 5-7x more base materials, if you only stock or keep 70+ there is also 2-3x less and you'll likely be fine!
Now as for the bound materials, I think that's only items purchased with material currency. Those you should strive to buy only as you require them, then use to mostly either create new unbound items, like turning Mithral Ore into Mithral INGOT as example.
Still you do have the normal &/or high quality versions, even if you only keep materials (70+) for each professions, it's possible you may require a little bit more space? But not necessarily... ...I'm just going to pay more attention to what you need. Since 1, 2, or 3 stacks offers a lot of available resources, and most items only require 1 stack, especially if most recipes only require 1-3 of a given material.
Still I'll ping "MK" and see if this is something he's thought up already?
----- One solution they 'may' want to consider is something like this: Offer everyone 4 or 6 maybe 10 free materials slots; then offer more in the ZEN Store if some still feel they need more. Or they may leave it at 240, I'm fine with what ever they think is best. I mostly easy-going though...
But I think having an option to buy 4, or 6 materials slots a few more, possibly 60 or 120 more might be nice.
Realize since each slot can in fact hold 999x materials, just adding multiples of 4, 6, or 12 to a few character's would greatly expand it for the serious crafters!
With the changes to the Professions system, I think the double professions event should get a rework too, same way double refinement got one with the refinement overhaul. That way crafters won't have to wait till event to come around to get materials.
High quality system as a whole feels short sighted and a bandaid instead of a long term implement within professions. Currently with forgehammer, +1 supplement, and best artisan for focus you have a 10% chance to me a +1 beaded ring. What kind of system reduces the odds to 10% for a +1? I think anyone crafting would expect long term a +3 to +5 crafting system but that's virtually impossible if the best items now have a 10% chance at success. Not to mention.. Rings will go for leg packs and god knows what the price of armor and weapons will be. Players won't spend the ad for mediocre gains, especially with prices reflecting the amount of fails in material and final product the crafters had to eat. I see MC5 chest piece for DC going for 15m if the stats and GS are what I think they'll be. Smh. I wish the devs would explain their thought process here.
Although we have used the plus indicator in the past for certain non-crafted items like rings, and numbers above +1 did appear, we currently have no plans to introduce +2, +3, etc. to the system. Keep in mind that you will have a significantly higher chance of creating a high-quality item if you use high-quality materials. That said, we would like to keep +1 results rare, with the default item maintaining some value. We don't want high-quality results to be seen as the default result.
Such a test. I want to do 100 pieces of adept's electuary, let's say with a 54% chance. It cost me almost 230 gold, 2/100 failed, and a total of 28 adept's electuary +1 were produced.
...
With the same test with a 34% chance, the cost has not changed, but the failure rate has risen to 6 per 100, and items +1 has created 24 pieces.
It looks like the stat "focus" is also responsible for the percentage of failures.
Focus does not affect success or failure rate. Your results are well within the expected deviation for a sample of 100 crafts. Even if your results were much further away from what was expected, please keep in mind that statistics can help you calculate the expected chance of something, but each event is independent in reality.
Btw, this workship looks like it’s in a residential area, yet it has a burning hot forge, and chemicals, and alchemicals, and weeds…. I wonder if the nearby residents will have any objections to the risks and the smells and the toxic byproducts of making high powered magical items?
Protector's Enclave doesn't exactly have zoning laws!
If the advantages of White/Blue/Purple craftsman are not obvious and tied to their rank, this creates player confusion and uncertainty. Making the whole system harder to understand.
Crafting should not require a special study of the crafting system to make sense of the relative value of basic products, it should follow the model of the whole game. White < Blue < Purple should be apparent.
The advantages are tied to their rank, all rare artisans have more points invested across their 5 statistics, and epic have even more. Strathkin has done a solid job at pointing this out, but each artisan has points invested into proficiency, focus, commission cost, speed and skill chance. An epic artisan with the same proficiency and focus values as a common artisan could have 15% more chance for their skill to activate, have +100% more speed and -75% less commission cost.
As mentioned above, the way Lady Begum’s commissions reset daily is a major PITA. The Chult commissions don’t do that. It makes it impossible to plan ahead. That is, it makes it impossible to set up a bunch of production orders then let them sit until they’re filled, and expect them to be useful.
If the items sat in professions inventory, maybe it wouldn’t be so bad, as you could make a bunch of stuff and let it sit until it came ‘round again, but many of the items (such as potions and gear) sit in main inventory, which makes carrying them around significantly interfere with actually playing the game.
Please make Lady Begum’s commissions constant and predictable.
There are a limited number of items that are accepted overall, and they will cycle back around within a few days. You can approach these commissions in different ways depending on how much you'd like to stress your inventory. You could generally prepare materials for instance, then use morale each day to make items that are accepted that day.
@strathkin you make a very common error. You think that your subset of information shows a complete picture. You then write a wall of text explaining your thoughts based on a limited subset of information.
Most of Strathkin's assumptions are correct, at least insofar as artisan statistics are concerned. Making an assumption about a set of data based on a small sample may not work very well in all situations, but in games when it pertains to items that have likely been designed around some balance point (item level, rarity, etc.) it's usually safe to draw some inferences.
This is something of a repost, but it hasn’t been addressed, so I’ll include screen shots and additional comments to make the point….
FYI, currently on preview, the Mythic Forgehammer of Gond gives +600/+600 Proficiency/Focus. The best artisans apparently give +400/+400, for a total of +1000/+1000 Proficiency/Focus. As seen in this first screenshot, that gives a 67% chance of success, with a 7% focus value(*).
In the old system, the equivalent set-up would give a 75% chance of success, and there was no such thing as a crit. Also, on failure, some materials were (always) refunded.
----- NOTE edited some out to highlight what I wanted to for @manjusriyamantak
Your Imgur links seem to NOT be working they display a BROKEN 'x' with no images. Head's up try not using links referred as: ▪ Image Link ▪ Markdown Link ▪ HTML ▪ BBCODE ▪ Linked BBCode
It's possible your album, does have images, or the album set to public viewing? -----
The next two screenshots show what you can do if you add proficiency or focus supplements. You still can’t get back to where you were in the old system.
----- NOTE: edited some out to simply identify above comment. -----
Though I'm glad someone finally NOTICED the supplemental action! So GREAT catch! Hopefully you'll soon update your post with some images that correctly work. Still as I've noticed they recently updated the Mastercraft II tools, and we may yet to see a few minor tweaks to a few other tools?
To answer your QUESTION below: 'I only see broken links... for the images... I'd just encourage you always use the .jpg or .png URL that the image hosting site provides, as they always show up for everyone consistently! Or images not set to public in image or album which I also PM you about...
If the required is 694, why does 694 not provide me with at least a 1% chance of success? We won't even mention the fact that 694/901 being 0% without looking at the tooltip is just so disconcerting. Proficiency appears to give a corresponding percentage for the numbers displayed, Focus should also.
Second a high-quality issue
As you can see I'm using 5 high-quality Wootz Steel Ore and yet the tooltip for the Craft button tells me I need 5 Wootz Steel Ore.
Side note: I thought maybe with the professions re-work you guys would have fixed this typo.
Thanks for pointing out the typo, and the tooltip error. In regards to needing to meet the minimum focus requirement in order to receive a chance to create a high-quality item, this is intentional and not a bug. The minimum is the 0 point. For success chance the 0 point is always 0. I will discuss with our UI team whether it may be better to display the 0 point +1 for the minimum value.
I think you require [694/901] to start the process, it seems the first 'tick' only starts the process, up from 0% rightly or wrongly. Cause it seems you need to exceed the base, to be given a chance at High-Quality or what is [700/901] to obtain 3% Focus Chance, if you wish to obtain a chance of High Quality Results.
So the TOOLTIP is slightly Cryptic.
Still hopefully they will be revise the TOOLTIP in the near future to correctly identify 700/901 is required to obtain the lowest quality upgrade chance.
Seems I also remember a DEV or someone commenting a week or two ago Mastercraft &/or Chultan Recipes don't currently accept High Quality Results at least not in the current build! So hopefully that will make the patch for the 19th, or 26th, as both I'm sure many want to test!
I'm also very curious to know what the Chultan League Gear will finally result in for Item Level. We've seen Rare Adamantine with 500 and that doesn't include Adamantine Gear +1 at 510. If Mastercraft II starts at 520, and Mastercraft III at 530, before Mastercraft V is 560. Will Chultan also be 520 just perhaps Rare quality?
We don't have any plans to increase the item level of Chultan crafted equipment as the base equipment can be obtained elsewhere, and we don't want to specifically drive people back to Chult for these recipes. We are leaving them in place for transmutes but won't be adjusting the item levels.
Gathering profession results also come in stacks of 12.
Everyone has access to Alchemy. There is no balance issue there. Cause anyone can do it. If someone uses another profession and wastes the gold and time, that is their choice.
It may be intended by the developers to have Alchemy be used for Workshop Upgrades. Or they may intend to change it. We don't know unless a Developer tells us their intent. The gold cost and time investment with Alchemy to upgrade the workshop seems about right to me.
We are changing the way Alchemy commissions work, as you have guessed. As with everything on preview, what you see is subject to change, and much of the final balancing for professions has been happening over the last few weeks. Of course, as you can guess the amount of credit awarded for recipes that create multiple items is being reduced significantly, such that the amount of credit you get is based on the number of recipes you complete, not the number of items you create.
Credit rewards have also been slightly adjusted based on material costs. Rings are being halved, and alchemy commissions are being significantly reduced. Additionally, there will no longer be commissions for stat enhancing potions as these are available elsewhere in the game and are items that are currently available on live, which would seriously unbalance the source of commission credit. Instead, alchemists will make supplements and assorted materials such as ink.
I'm an engineer. When we make something in real life, what do we do? If we're responsible (as any masterwork-level artisan would be), we do our due diligence: we research the potential techniques used to not only create what we seek but also techniques to minimize risk.
Your points are salient, however, we're talking about a system that is an abstraction of actual crafting. We had the opportunity to make a big overhaul, and I think ultimately we've been able to make some serious improvements over the original system, both in terms of providing more interesting gameplay, creating an environment where items can maintain value, and allowing for future expansion.
Overhauling the system to the point that RNG is eliminated completely, while allowing items to maintain value would require an herculean amount of time and resources. We could have waited longer and hopefully eventually carved out time for such an overhaul, but with other areas of the game requiring attention as well, there was no chance that the required amount of time would be available anytime soon. So we chose to use the time that was available to make improvements. The overhaul actually ended up being a bit larger than we originally planned and allotted for.
Even in cases where a game focuses significantly more of its budget on crafting, it can be difficult to eliminate RNG entirely. Because RNG has to be replaced with a significantly more time consuming or logistically challenging system. That being said, the most recent build should have included supplements for masterwork alchemy that should allow one to achieve significantly higher ratings.
You can decide not to take risks when crafting, focus on achieving the highest possible success values, the best supplements, all high-quality materials and stick to recipes which have a success chance within your tolerance. However, making the best items might require more risk. This is not unlike the real world where pushing the envelope working on new designs or materials can be incredibly expensive, with the big difference that once a successful method of production is achieved, you can't necessarily scale up that method. Only the eventual introduction of better tools can significantly reduce risk.
Your ideas about artisans improving at a task and becoming rusty, as well as researching how to better perform the task are all absolutely interesting, and if we have an opportunity to improve the system further in the future, similar ideas will definitely be on the table.
Increasing the complexity of artisans was something we absolutely wanted to do. Originally we discussed having a more complex morale system with artisans having moods that impacted their effectiveness, and providing ways to interface with those moods. Ultimately, given the time we had, we simply couldn't develop them further. The team invested a lot of their own personal time, beyond the original scope of the rework to develop the system to this point, and to allow for as much variety as we have been able to get into the artisans and I'm thankful for that.
I know this explanation won't necessarily alleviate any frustration if you are squarely against randomness being a part of the system, but hopefully it at least helps you understand, to a degree, why it is present.
This is something of a repost, but it hasn’t been addressed, so I’ll include screen shots and additional comments to make the point….
FYI, currently on preview, the Mythic Forgehammer of Gond gives +600/+600 Proficiency/Focus. The best artisans apparently give +400/+400, for a total of +1000/+1000 Proficiency/Focus. As seen in this first screenshot, that gives a 67% chance of success, with a 7% focus value(*).
In the old system, the equivalent set-up would give a 75% chance of success, and there was no such thing as a crit. Also, on failure, some materials were (always) refunded.
(* Note, presumably, that in order to get a crit/high-quality item, the task first has to succeed. So if the success chance is 67% and the focus value is 7%, then actual chance of a crit is (0.67 * 0.07) == 4.69%. If the focus value is 23%, then the actual chance of crit is (0.67 * 0.23) == 15.41%. If this is not how it’s implemented, I would appreciate clarification from @asherdhal.)
Note also that non-high-quality (“+0”) items such as these are going to be essentially worthless. People who are willing to pay millions of AD for their gear are only going to buy BiS stuff, so they’ll be an oversupply of non-high-quality things as the mastercrafters try to make high-quality items, which will crater the price of the +0 items.
[It will also allow every fresh 70 to get to one step below BiS pretty much instantly, which makes 95% of the game into a trivially easy grind that no one will want to bother with, and in the 5% that remains, all the fully-BiS players will just get pissed off at the newbie-but-high-geared players who don’t know how to play or the tricks of each dungeon, and everyone will have bad experiences running all the random queues…. but I digress…. Anyway…. ]
So this is a significant setback in terms of translating current ability into the new system.
The next two screenshots show what you can do if you add proficiency or focus supplements. You still can’t get back to where you were in the old system.
I have no access to most high-quality (masterwork) ingredients on preview, particularly since the chance of crit is also very low for all the intermediate recipes, but from what I’ve seen in other cases, it doesn’t appear that they increases the chances very much. For the one thing I’ve been able to test – Oil of Vitriol – 12x Iron Sand +1 give a +20% focus percentage (though that’s still only 55%, or (0.76 * 0.55) == 42.8% chance of crit). Most recipes don’t have 12 items, so the boost is going to be much less --- maybe 3-8 percentage points.
Is there any way to tell how much a +1 item will improve the chances? They don’t seem to have prof/focus values, but rather they seem to add a flat %-age. What is that %-age for any given high-quality ingredient?
Also, if high-quality ingredients add to the prof/focus percentages, then the total possible boost is dependent on the number of ingredients in a recipe. Since the recipes weren’t originally constructed with this in mind, I suspect that this will lead to some strange anomalies in the success/crit chances between different recipes at the same level.
Finally, I understand that +1 items will drop from explorer’s charts, but what about the dungeon drops that many recipes need? For example, will there be a Manticore Mane +1 that will drop?
I would consider it “fair” if the chance of success with normal ingredients were 75%, with zero chance of crit; and high-quality ingredients were needed to get a chance of crit, and it were possible to get a reasonable (60-80%+) chance of crit with them, and high-quality inputs dropped from Explorer’s Charts and dungeons.
What I currently see is not fair.
Keep in mind that getting to a final recipe such as in these screen shots requires 3-5 steps of intermediate recipes before it, and when each of those has a reduced chance of success compared to the old system, the total nerf is multiplied out to be much larger than it appears from just looking at one recipe. (like 0.75^3 == 42% vs. 0.67^3 == 30%)
Of course, there’s a complication in this system that bringing these highest-level recipes up to par would make the lower level recipes guaranteed, i.e., “too easy” if you want to maintain a chance of failure. Even as it stands Level 70 recipes, which require 800/900, would always succeed and crit with a forgehammer (maybe not a bad thing, if you’ve got one); and MW I recipes, which require 1300/1200, get a 77%/49% chance, which is better than the old system. (But who makes MW I items, except to level up?)
The easiest way to address this (and keep your apparent goal of making higher level recipes more difficult) would be to make the proficiency requirement of all the MW levels the same (1300, or 1333 for a 75% chance), but let the focus requirement increase. Since +1 items are new, making them more difficult to make at higher levels is arguably reasonable, but nerfing what we could make in the old system is not.
Keep in mind, as well, that as I said above, +0 items are going to be essentially worthless. So *even if* the ability to make them remains the same, they’ll be a de-facto nerf in the value of doing so.
That said, having a base crit chance of 5% or 15% to make +1 items with no way of raising it further is far too low. It’s essentially useless, and as I already said, it will completely crater the values of the +0 items from oversupply, while leaving the +1 items virtually non-existent. I wouldn’t mind if it takes work to get a decent crit chance, since that’s new, but there should be *some* way of getting better values than this.
So I’d suggest two things:
1) Make the difference between common/rare/epic artisans larger. You’ve said that artisans would be more valuable, but as they stand they really aren’t (aside from needing 2 “assets” vs. 5), and as others have said, relative to each other, there’s very little advantage to epics. 15 points out of 1500 is not significant…
So I would like to see the range proficiency values increased between the rarity grades, but more importantly, I’d like to see the focus value differences significantly increased. Perhaps all the artisans can make a thing with some reasonable and similar chance of success, but it should be the “epic” artisans who can make *the best* stuff, and do so more reliably.
In terms of the game system, that would also allow players to advance in the professions with any artisans, but it would reward those lucky/persistent enough to get some rare/epic artisans with being able to make the high-quality items.
2) If it’s not already done, limit artisan level to the profession’s level. If done right, that will keep professions that are still being leveled from getting overpowered, and with 1 above, it will also add more value to rare/epic artisans.
There's a lot going on in this post, and I'd like to respond to more of it but for now I'd like to clarify a few points which you brought up. First, yes you need to succeed in order to get a high-quality result, so if you have a 75% chance to succeed and a 25% chance to get a high-quality result, you must first successfully roll to make the item, and then that success must roll to find out whether it will be a high-quality result.
On the topic of high-quality materials and their contribution to your chance to create a high-quality result. It is not dependent on the number of materials. High-quality materials do not add focus, which is why your focus does not go up when you slot them in. Instead, if your chance to make a high-quality item is over 0% (you have met the minimum threshold) your chance to make a high-quality result is increased by up to 20%, where 20% is the value it is increased by if all of your materials are high-quality.
The actual contribution each material adds is complicated, with rarer or higher level materials contributing more to the success chance. So, if an item requires a copper ingot and a gold ingot, providing a copper ingot +1 will be less impactful than providing a gold ingot +1. In the end, however, providing all high-quality materials will always provide the same result: +20%.
Finally, we may examine the required success values further on masterwork recipes. We will be monitoring how prices play out this module and making adjustments, possibly ad hoc, but certainly in the next module, as we would like to avoid a world where normal quality masterwork items are ubiquitous, and seen as a failure.
There appears to be no way to stop the tasks you have set for gathering, so you cannot change the tasks.
Eh...no, they are easy to cancel:
Only if the task isn't getting completed faster than the system allows for cancelling.
I managed to get 1 task cancelled, but I cannot cancel the 2 Copper Ore tasks that I have because they are always delivering or the box is full and they are not available.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Major power armor kits +1 only give 200 power (same as regular) instead of the expected 220. In addition, every +1 armor kits I've seen say "equip" while base quality say "reinforced"
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
Keep in mind we will be pricing these items roughly based on their current auction value, and not on any past values or systemic rarity. If an item once sold for a large sum but no longer does, we won't be giving you an exchange rate based on the old value, in the same way that if the system remained unchanged you could no longer get back that original value from a sale.
There is one problem with that. The AH value of most purple workers is not based on their value for professions - most of the Grandmasters are currently just used for the purpose of donating them for guild marks. The exception is the Leadership Purple workers (Heroes), and their value much more accurately reflects the value of workers as far as Professions are concerned.
There appears to be no way to stop the tasks you have set for gathering, so you cannot change the tasks.
Eh...no, they are easy to cancel:
Only if the task isn't getting completed faster than the system allows for cancelling.
I managed to get 1 task cancelled, but I cannot cancel the 2 Copper Ore tasks that I have because they are always delivering or the box is full and they are not available.
I had this happen as well. You just have to keep emptying the delivery box until you have gotten all the ore that has been gathered. It is time consuming, because they make you wait a few seconds for each ore delivery.
There needs to be a way to cancel a task as items are being delivered, without also cancelling the items already gathered but not delivered.
The changes to workshop commissions are very adverse. Based on what has been posted, nothing was said about commissions being increased, only commissions being decreased for alchemy and jewelcrafting. This makes the workshop upgrades considerably more expensive and time consuming. If you do not spend AD on morale boosts, it will take about 2 months to complete enough tasks to get from Workshop Level 3 to Workshop Level 4. That is assuming completing 10 tasks/day using morale and 20 tasks per day being assigned. This does not include any intermediate tasks that might be required.
Is this the design intent for the length of time to get to WS3 and WS4?
When I guestimated the cost of WS3 to WS4 being about 5k gold, that was with making rings. Since you are lowering the commissions on these items, then it will be more expensive.
What is the design intent for the cost of the WS3 to WS4 upgrade?
If I pool all the gold on my account, I have about 10k gold. And that includes recently purchasing a few k off the AH.
I noticed this nice item in Lvl 70 Jewelcrafting with the sweet movement bonus. However, I can only find this bonus for Control Wizard. Was this meant to be wearable by all classes? The CW hats in Tailoring all have the usual +1500 crit bonus.
There's a lot going on in this post, and I'd like to respond to more of it but for now I'd like to clarify a few points which you brought up. First, yes you need to succeed in order to get a high-quality result, so if you have a 75% chance to succeed and a 25% chance to get a high-quality result, you must first successfully roll to make the item, and then that success must roll to find out whether it will be a high-quality result.
So it's two separate rolls? 3/4 chance to succeed, and then 1/4 of successes are high-quality? Meaning, 1/4=4/16 failure, 3/4*3/4 = 9/16 success, 3/4*1/4= 3/16 high-quality success?
Not a single roll with 1/4 failure, 2/4 success, 1/4 high-quality success?
I'm responding to myself here, but after considering feedback on this topic further, we will be making all non-masterwork resources available at the exchange. However, resources above level 60 will be priced a little on the higher side in the exchange.
The artisan workshop size has been set to a debug value to allow for testing of additional artisans, the artisan storage size will be lowered for the next preview build and release, with additional artisan stora
Oh, too bad to know that we were seeing a debug version.
I do assume that 32 will be the limit at level 4. Could it be increased quite a bit? There are so many artisants that getting good ones on a single character would be really hard. From my point of view, it would be great either having a bigger maximum or giving a way to move them to other characters inside the same account (similar to them being bound to account).
@asterdahl Why is making Crates of Transmuted Gold so involved? Also, the expense for the hoops you have to jump through isn't really justified, either. 7g to 8g as a base commission price, before artisan multipliers, just to get 15g to donate? On top of that price, you have to gather: 1. Flax 2. Gold sand 3. Oak logs 4. Ash logs 5. Iron Sand 6. Fish stuff (to make fish glue) 7. And stuff I'm forgetting
Then you have to: 1. Turn the logs into lumber 2. Make raw gold ingots from the gold sand 3. Use the Iron sand and other stuff to make black ink 4. Make fine parchment from the flax (and I think fish glue) 5. Use the black ink, fine parchment, and 1x gold sand to make an Aureus Index 6. Use the Aureus Index and 3x raw gold ingot to finally make the crates!
There are probably about 15 to 20 steps to make crates of transmuted gold for the guild. What's the deal? Seriously! This system shouldn't be this onerous to use. And if the crates of surplus equipment and jewelry are going to be this involved, that's going to be seriously disappointing.
EDIT: If it's going to be this involved, I'm going to have to carefully plan which characters are doing what in order to make these things with minimal effort.
But what I'm trying to get across is that if they continue to push to make a game that there is only one way to play...
You've made numerous near identical posts about this already; about only having time each day to invoke for AD bonus and then buy salvage off AH to make AD off bonus when salvaging. There's a reason why no one has replied. You're actually describing why this should be changed. Instead of "they .. make a game that there is only one way to play", the reality is, you are playing the game only in that one specific way. You are arguing for a play style that best fits you. Sorry, I understand your sentiment, but just can't see it as a strong argument.
Though I'm glad someone finally NOTICED the supplemental action! So GREAT catch! Hopefully you'll soon update your post with some images that correctly work.
Several people have noted the supplements, but thanks.
What’s wrong with the images? Are you saying they don’t accurately reflect the state of the game? Or do they just not load for you? They’re imagur.com links, and they load for me (except in the quoted text you posted), but I’m not very familiar with posting screen shots in this forum, so if I’m missing something, please let me know.
@strathkin to your response above -- I did use .jpg URLs, and I added them using the script provided by the forum's UI. Here's on of the raw URL: https://i.imgur.com/sFcXVAb.jpg
Maybe this forum isn't the place to debug this issue, but if I'm clearly doing something wrong, please direct-message me, and/or if others don't see the images, please let me know. But also, please make sure imgur URLs aren't blocked on your end.
I see the https://i.imgur.com/sFcXVAb.jpg here images fine if I click on them now! Previously I think they linked as https://imgur.com/sFcXVAb as I indicated in my PM to you - could be permissions as well on album or image. Though both working now.
No more broken 'x' like show in the above quotes I made earlier! I can now see your image below.
Post edited by strathkin on
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
why do we have the same skin of shield in many colors in professions, weapons cant change colors so it have some logic but shield can be affacted by dyes...
Theres a lot of other shield sins in the game that we cant use, like the Giants round shields, the floating shield pet skin, and some shields we get on Elemental evil tasks (that cant be done more than one time) pls change the shiled skins that appear twice just in different colors
Even adding a image/emblem to the very same shields already in the professions would solve this problem and give us a reason to make them...
Can you make resources transferable through Shared Account Bank?
Will there be an opportunity to get the dyes like "Control Wizard", "Devoted Cleric", etc.? I don't see them in the list of alchemical recipes on Preview.
Can you make resources transferable through Shared Account Bank?
You can mail them unless they are bound. The bound items are the ones you buy from your retainer. Instead of trading your old materials to the retainer for credit, you can send the old materials to your crafter via mail if you want to consolidate materials on one character.
Comments
Now having said that I do think Legendary tools be given 'slightly' more than +550, perhaps a +5 but there are also quite generous already! I'm far more concerned with other tools available. Still it does seem DEVs have been listening cause they made Mastercraft II tools slightly better in 1008.a4, now giving them +25 Proficiency! They now offer +400 Proficiency and +375 Focus. I just think Focus still needs a +5.
Yet Gond I do think this is the only tool should be given all but the best, and the only one that is truly miraculous!
So I'm mostly FINE with how they've laid out the vast majority of stuff at this point. I strongly hope the Mastercraft Well-Worn tools also given +375 to offer more than Adamantine +1! But then again, why shouldn't a Adamantine +1 offer the same as a Mastercraft Well-Worn?
I remember in Discussions for months BEFORE, I asked to give the Common Mastercraft tools the same 8% Quality, that all Well Worn tools in normal professions gave, with 8% Quality from the Professional Vendor. Cause the Mastercraft I - tool gave 0% and I argued, how does nothing even equate to being a tool, if it aid or assists 0%, or effectively nothing?
Yet time and again Mastercrafters attacked me, they didn't want to make it 8% easier for Mastercraft II, despite the chance without Gond was 3x-4x harder to obtain Mastercraft II, than it was for each and every level after that with Mastercraft III-V! All chances for Mastercraft III-V were at least 60%--denote the without the Gond tool. So I guess they listened to the Mastercrafters who wanted to make it harder?
So I think DEVs read, some of those posts even when they don't reply... ...but perhaps we'll see @asterdahl over the next few days catch up on the thread and respond or clarify a few things. So please be patient, and let's hope there are a still a few revisions, that still perhaps revisions still being made! I fully AGREE with this!
I initially thought exactly the same thing, a lot more required for Materials slots. Yet seems they didn't think it was necessary, perhaps while the total # of materials is about 5x higher, if you've levelled all professions and don't collect less than 70 level materials, you'll need 2-3x less materials if only doing 70+ projects! So it's likely FINE with the same amount of slots for most people! Still however think it be nice to at least, be given another 6 maybe 10 slots at least, cause now you have to be a lot more careful. Cause from time to time if your opening up skill nodes, dungeons chests, or enemy drop them, you'll likely require a few additional ones!
Though I'm going to be careful: To only stock and keep materials used by 70+ level materials, unless I'm levelling a new one and need them, otherwise I'll just sell them to someone else on Auction!
The Materials Satchel is too small. Way, way too small. If this is not fixed, professions will be a major hassle - if you cannot fit all the materials you need in your stachel, you will have to endlessly swap them in an out as needed, and you will have to do that through the mail as you cannot store the materials in the bank.
Here is what I did: After getting rid of my obsolete materials, I started buying the new ones, just to be able to play with the new recipes, and the satchel filled up right away...it is far too small to hold a single stack of every material.
One reason is that for the new materials, there are 3 versions, Bound, Unbound and "+1".
Seriously, why do we need to have Bound (which you get through exchanging) and Unbound (which you get from the material vendor) versions of everything. It is just silly. Get rid of the Bound ones....it serves no good purpose to have those bound.
If you want to keep the Bound and Unbound versions, you need to add over 200 slots to the Professions Satchel - otherwise, increasing it by 100 or so will do (barely).
A bug: When buying materials through the "new for old" exchange, the items from Stilled Water and down can only be bought singly - for those above you can buy multiples...99 at the same time or whatever. And yes...why not have the list in alphabetical order?
(Mod edited double comment) Keep in mind we will be pricing these items roughly based on their current auction value, and not on any past values or systemic rarity. If an item once sold for a large sum but no longer does, we won't be giving you an exchange rate based on the old value, in the same way that if the system remained unchanged you could no longer get back that original value from a sale. Absolutely, we pulled auction data from before there was any announcement of the professions overhaul. The increased value of leadership assets was not an error. The original values that were identical for all professions were an initial rough pass. However, as leadership assets were significantly more valuable before the professions overhaul was announced, we've adjusted their trade in value to be based on this fact. There were cases where it was possible to make +1 versions of items that had no purpose, such as the legendary turn in items like "Steel Chef's Knife." These recipes can no longer create high-quality results to prevent obtaining an item that cannot be turned in. For material recipes that don't require +1 results, you can always sell these materials on the auction house. At the moment we do not have the ability for a quest to accept a mix of these two items, as they are actually different items on the back end. In the future we may be able to provide the ability to convert high-quality items into low-quality items. This conversion would have to be one way, of course. The artisan workshop size has been set to a debug value to allow for testing of additional artisans, the artisan storage size will be lowered for the next preview build and release, with additional artisan stora I had already responded to the armor kit question and it was mentioned in the patch notes, which is why I had not responded again, but I'll say that they should be in this week's preview build that just went out, or if not, the very next build.
In regards to elemental resources, they will be converted like other resources, but aggregates and unified elements will have higher than average conversion rates based on their auction house values before the overhaul announcement.
Now as for the bound materials, I think that's only items purchased with material currency. Those you should strive to buy only as you require them, then use to mostly either create new unbound items, like turning Mithral Ore into Mithral INGOT as example.
Still you do have the normal &/or high quality versions, even if you only keep materials (70+) for each professions, it's possible you may require a little bit more space? But not necessarily... ...I'm just going to pay more attention to what you need. Since 1, 2, or 3 stacks offers a lot of available resources, and most items only require 1 stack, especially if most recipes only require 1-3 of a given material.
Still I'll ping "MK" and see if this is something he's thought up already?
-----
One solution they 'may' want to consider is something like this:
Offer everyone 4 or 6 maybe 10 free materials slots; then offer more in the ZEN Store if some still feel they need more. Or they may leave it at 240, I'm fine with what ever they think is best. I mostly easy-going though...
But I think having an option to buy 4, or 6 materials slots a few more, possibly 60 or 120 more might be nice.
Realize since each slot can in fact hold 999x materials, just adding multiples of 4, 6, or 12 to a few character's would greatly expand it for the serious crafters!
@mimicking#6533
To answer your QUESTION below: 'I only see broken links... for the images... I'd just encourage you always use the .jpg or .png URL that the image hosting site provides, as they always show up for everyone consistently! Or images not set to public in image or album which I also PM you about...
Credit rewards have also been slightly adjusted based on material costs. Rings are being halved, and alchemy commissions are being significantly reduced. Additionally, there will no longer be commissions for stat enhancing potions as these are available elsewhere in the game and are items that are currently available on live, which would seriously unbalance the source of commission credit. Instead, alchemists will make supplements and assorted materials such as ink. Your points are salient, however, we're talking about a system that is an abstraction of actual crafting. We had the opportunity to make a big overhaul, and I think ultimately we've been able to make some serious improvements over the original system, both in terms of providing more interesting gameplay, creating an environment where items can maintain value, and allowing for future expansion.
Overhauling the system to the point that RNG is eliminated completely, while allowing items to maintain value would require an herculean amount of time and resources. We could have waited longer and hopefully eventually carved out time for such an overhaul, but with other areas of the game requiring attention as well, there was no chance that the required amount of time would be available anytime soon. So we chose to use the time that was available to make improvements. The overhaul actually ended up being a bit larger than we originally planned and allotted for.
Even in cases where a game focuses significantly more of its budget on crafting, it can be difficult to eliminate RNG entirely. Because RNG has to be replaced with a significantly more time consuming or logistically challenging system. That being said, the most recent build should have included supplements for masterwork alchemy that should allow one to achieve significantly higher ratings.
You can decide not to take risks when crafting, focus on achieving the highest possible success values, the best supplements, all high-quality materials and stick to recipes which have a success chance within your tolerance. However, making the best items might require more risk. This is not unlike the real world where pushing the envelope working on new designs or materials can be incredibly expensive, with the big difference that once a successful method of production is achieved, you can't necessarily scale up that method. Only the eventual introduction of better tools can significantly reduce risk.
Your ideas about artisans improving at a task and becoming rusty, as well as researching how to better perform the task are all absolutely interesting, and if we have an opportunity to improve the system further in the future, similar ideas will definitely be on the table.
Increasing the complexity of artisans was something we absolutely wanted to do. Originally we discussed having a more complex morale system with artisans having moods that impacted their effectiveness, and providing ways to interface with those moods. Ultimately, given the time we had, we simply couldn't develop them further. The team invested a lot of their own personal time, beyond the original scope of the rework to develop the system to this point, and to allow for as much variety as we have been able to get into the artisans and I'm thankful for that.
I know this explanation won't necessarily alleviate any frustration if you are squarely against randomness being a part of the system, but hopefully it at least helps you understand, to a degree, why it is present.
On the topic of high-quality materials and their contribution to your chance to create a high-quality result. It is not dependent on the number of materials. High-quality materials do not add focus, which is why your focus does not go up when you slot them in. Instead, if your chance to make a high-quality item is over 0% (you have met the minimum threshold) your chance to make a high-quality result is increased by up to 20%, where 20% is the value it is increased by if all of your materials are high-quality.
The actual contribution each material adds is complicated, with rarer or higher level materials contributing more to the success chance. So, if an item requires a copper ingot and a gold ingot, providing a copper ingot +1 will be less impactful than providing a gold ingot +1. In the end, however, providing all high-quality materials will always provide the same result: +20%.
Finally, we may examine the required success values further on masterwork recipes. We will be monitoring how prices play out this module and making adjustments, possibly ad hoc, but certainly in the next module, as we would like to avoid a world where normal quality masterwork items are ubiquitous, and seen as a failure.
I managed to get 1 task cancelled, but I cannot cancel the 2 Copper Ore tasks that I have because they are always delivering or the box is full and they are not available.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
There needs to be a way to cancel a task as items are being delivered, without also cancelling the items already gathered but not delivered.
Is this the design intent for the length of time to get to WS3 and WS4?
When I guestimated the cost of WS3 to WS4 being about 5k gold, that was with making rings. Since you are lowering the commissions on these items, then it will be more expensive.
What is the design intent for the cost of the WS3 to WS4 upgrade?
If I pool all the gold on my account, I have about 10k gold. And that includes recently purchasing a few k off the AH.
I noticed this nice item in Lvl 70 Jewelcrafting with the sweet movement bonus. However, I can only find this bonus for Control Wizard. Was this meant to be wearable by all classes? The CW hats in Tailoring all have the usual +1500 crit bonus.
Not a single roll with 1/4 failure, 2/4 success, 1/4 high-quality success?
Oh, too bad to know that we were seeing a debug version.
I do assume that 32 will be the limit at level 4. Could it be increased quite a bit? There are so many artisants that getting good ones on a single character would be really hard. From my point of view, it would be great either having a bigger maximum or giving a way to move them to other characters inside the same account (similar to them being bound to account).
1. Flax
2. Gold sand
3. Oak logs
4. Ash logs
5. Iron Sand
6. Fish stuff (to make fish glue)
7. And stuff I'm forgetting
Then you have to:
1. Turn the logs into lumber
2. Make raw gold ingots from the gold sand
3. Use the Iron sand and other stuff to make black ink
4. Make fine parchment from the flax (and I think fish glue)
5. Use the black ink, fine parchment, and 1x gold sand to make an Aureus Index
6. Use the Aureus Index and 3x raw gold ingot to finally make the crates!
There are probably about 15 to 20 steps to make crates of transmuted gold for the guild. What's the deal? Seriously! This system shouldn't be this onerous to use. And if the crates of surplus equipment and jewelry are going to be this involved, that's going to be seriously disappointing.
EDIT: If it's going to be this involved, I'm going to have to carefully plan which characters are doing what in order to make these things with minimal effort.
No more broken 'x' like show in the above quotes I made earlier! I can now see your image below.
regular masterwork 3.
+1 masterwork 3.
Theres a lot of other shield sins in the game that we cant use, like the Giants round shields, the floating shield pet skin, and some shields we get on Elemental evil tasks (that cant be done more than one time) pls change the shiled skins that appear twice just in different colors
Even adding a image/emblem to the very same shields already in the professions would solve this problem and give us a reason to make them...
Ps. sorry for the bad english...
Will there be an opportunity to get the dyes like "Control Wizard", "Devoted Cleric", etc.? I don't see them in the list of alchemical recipes on Preview.