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Official Feedback Thread: Level Scaling Adjustments

Previously when a player was level scaled the game applied equations to adjust player stats in a manner that didn't result in proper scaling up or down. It didn't look at any of the sources of stats it just applied a single formula to reduce the ratings which resulted in different players in the same content ending up at different levels of reductions.

In an effort to improve that, we have changed it to be an item level limit ,per piece of gear, per level. When a player is level scaled down due to content, their gear stats will adjust down to a set value based on item level. Now all players should end up at the same adjusted point. Being level scaled up is the same except that it will raise the gear to a given minimum item level.

For example a player is scaled down to level 15, their equipment will grant stats as if it is item level 45.


To go along with that, enchantments will scale down as well with a limit on the level of a given enchantment based on the level the players is scaled to. Example a player is scaled down to level 50, their enchantments will act like they are a max rank of 8.

Overall players may notice level scaled content is a little bit more difficult than before, but the changes are not extreme. We welcome players to try out a leveling dungeon with their end game characters on preview to see this in action.


An additional change was made outside of level scaling which was to mount equip powers. Mount equip powers now scale with player level to keep them more inline with other buffs/stat increases players have. Where a level 70 player would have +2000 power from their mount equip power. A level 5 player using the same equip power would get +200 power.
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Comments

  • luks707luks707 Posts: 218Member Arc User
    I think in principle this could be a great change, as long as at the same time better incentives are given to play epic content. I think it is fine that level 70 characters can still play these dungeons and be rewarded. However it should always be more exciting and rewarding to do epic content, whatever your gearscore.
  • sormovichsormovich Posts: 0Member Arc User
    I did not go to low-level locations before (they bored me years ago), and not gonna do it now, especially after such "adjustments".
  • sundance777sundance777 Posts: 1,081Member Arc User
    This sounds awesome, I hope it works well to make the content more playable/enjoyable for all!
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  • spelldazerspelldazer Posts: 248Member Arc User
    I don't think this change will prevent speed running through dungeons to escape the trash mobs. This will just result in two-man trolling with darks in utilities, speed run to end, then kick slow member.
    Also, how does this change deal with mount insignias?
  • dupeksdupeks Posts: 1,636Member Arc User
    After having tried it (tos, ct) on a solo dc, I think it's still overtuned a bit (too easy), but I can see how coupled with the RQ changes this does a lot to address the leveling dungeon issue. I guess best to go with small incremental changes.
  • mageddo#6766 mageddo Posts: 57Member Arc User
    Will the chest rewards be increased then? I'd hate to think that a low level dungeon difficulty would increase without chests rewards quality increasing as well. You wouldnt do that would you? Your good people, not heartless individuals that just want to make a game more difficult for end game players to quickly farm AD.

    Great. I knew you were great people. I look forward to the better drops that scale to a players level. Thanks.
  • lowjohnlowjohn Posts: 556Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    Will the chest rewards be increased then? I'd hate to think that a low level dungeon difficulty would increase without chests rewards quality increasing as well. You wouldnt do that would you? Your good people, not heartless individuals that just want to make a game more difficult for end game players to quickly farm AD.



    Great. I knew you were great people. I look forward to the better drops that scale to a players level. Thanks.

    Pssht, you're already getting more AD on first run *and* more AD on repeat runs *and* better Seals to produce better gear and salvage *and* the "dungeons" will stop being trivially soloable by your companion, meaning you'll have a better experience and better rewards, start to finish.

    The drops already scale to your level, and IDing and turning them into RP is easier than ever before. And you want *more*?

    If you don't have Brave Seal gear, you can now farm it doing *levelling dungeons*. If you do have Brave Seal gear or better, you're choosing to do levelling dungeons instead of current content, so I am personally happy that the rewards are so good as-is.

    If I were the one designing this, I'd be cutting the rewards for levelling content to the bone, to encourage L70 players to run L70 content and not L13 content. But I lose my druthers on that in the original random queue change, and I *do* understand that they want to have enough players running the levelling content at any given time that a player who really needs the levelling content can find a party without waiting hours.
  • stormson#5521 stormson Posts: 34Member Arc User
    No no no no no. This idea negates the entire concept of progression. Dcuo did something like this and killed my league.
    DO NOT DO THIS.
  • agilestoagilesto Posts: 273Member Arc User

    No no no no no. This idea negates the entire concept of progression. Dcuo did something like this and killed my league.

    DO NOT DO THIS.

    Why would it negate the progression aspect?
    You're scaled only in sub-70 dungeon and event zones like CTA / winter-summerfest, not in your everyday playtime. You'lll still face lvl 73 mobs with your proper gear and il, no worry about it. Now on those sub-70 zones, you'll be scaled on a better way than now, where you can basically just breathe and kill the mobs.
    Don't worry, if you're really well geared, you won't have as much stats in sub-70 zones than you used to have, but you'll still totally reck ennemies.

    Now I fail to see how it could kill the game, as the sub-70 zones for a lvl 70 is... nothing. CTA are not ran (no rewards), sub-70 dungeons are only for random queue once a day, and sub-70 event zones, well you don't really fight on these, except on few occasions like summer trolls or winter demons.
  • stormson#5521 stormson Posts: 34Member Arc User
    Progression in a game like this means getting stronger.
    End game players SHOULD dominate low level content.
    With the proposed changes, an 18k, bis character won't be any stronger in Cloak Tower than someone at il400 running it for the first time.
    Progression=negated.
  • undepartedundeparted Posts: 63Member Arc User

    Progression in a game like this means getting stronger.

    End game players SHOULD dominate low level content.

    With the proposed changes, an 18k, bis character won't be any stronger in Cloak Tower than someone at il400 running it for the first time.

    Progression=negated.

    Just how hard do you think they are down scaling your characters? Trust me, you will still destroy any and everything at 18k. Presuming you know how to play the toon.
  • agilestoagilesto Posts: 273Member Arc User

    Progression in a game like this means getting stronger.

    End game players SHOULD dominate low level content.

    With the proposed changes, an 18k, bis character won't be any stronger in Cloak Tower than someone at il400 running it for the first time.

    Progression=negated.

    And this is where I see that you don't go to preview and just assume something totally out of context.
    Currently on live server i can one shot every mob on levelling dungeon without a problem at 17.5k dps. On preview server, I don't have as much crit as I have on live due to the new scaling, so I'm kinda capped at 17k crit instead of my usual 32k. My power is of course less important, but guess what? With a high-end toon like that, it's still a walk in the park.
    Yeah, maybe now bosses are not one-shot but maybe 2-3, depending if I crit or not.

    You seem to think that an 18k player will be reduce to the gear and stat level of a lvl 12. That can't be farther from the truth. 18k players will still completly destroy levelling content.

    And one final thing, yes end-game should dominate lower level content, that's why 18k can solo elol, etos or cn (even msp for some fools). But we're talking about levelling content, so content designed to the new players. The scaling was always a huge issue in this game and reported numerous times because we were absolutly too strong when scaled down, it is a real issue.

    Now if your pleasure as an 18k is to ruin levelling content by running and breathe to kill mobs, well then you definitly have a weird issue of "progression"
  • lowjohnlowjohn Posts: 556Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    Progression in a game like this means getting stronger.

    End game players SHOULD dominate low level content.

    With the proposed changes, an 18k, bis character won't be any stronger in Cloak Tower than someone at il400 running it for the first time.

    Progression=negated.

    Uh, no. You don't understand.

    A level 13 character running Cloak Tower will probably have some level 1 and 2 enchantments, a few pieces of green gear, maybe a blue or purple levelling weapon if they're an alt or they have high-level friends.

    My level 70 toon, in the party with them, will have full gold "IL 45" gear, Unparalleled enchant bonuses, set boosts, bonding runestones on a companion, and every slot filled with multistat "rank 2" enchants, all my powers and power points, and my much higher base ability scores. I'm fully confident that I'll still clearly be better at it than the L13 dude, or even than a 10K L70 player.

    The fact that enemies no longer kill themselves when I walk into the room, without me using a power, does not mean my progress has been negated. For some stupid reason[1] I'm running L13 content as an L70 - it's a GOOD THING that the scaling is going to make it less boring than it is now.



    [1]: "Because random levelling queue is hella profitable", yes, I know, and the reason it's profitable is so that L13 people wanting to run it can find a party, but it's still L13 content.
  • nunya#5309 nunya Posts: 230Member Arc User
    lowjohn said:


    The drops already scale to your level

    Not exactly. If I'm in a dungeon with a level 15 and they are near me when I kill something, whatever it drops is going to be appropriate to their level - not mine. If they're a few rooms away (behind me, usually), then the drops will be appropriate to my level. This is one reason I speed-run the dungeons as much as possible. I want the RP and having them around kills it for me.
  • lowjohnlowjohn Posts: 556Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    lowjohn said:


    The drops already scale to your level

    Not exactly. If I'm in a dungeon with a level 15 and they are near me when I kill something, whatever it drops is going to be appropriate to their level - not mine. If they're a few rooms away (behind me, usually), then the drops will be appropriate to my level. This is one reason I speed-run the dungeons as much as possible. I want the RP and having them around kills it for me.
    I've always found that the drops are pretty evenly distributed in terms of level appropriateness when in different-level teams - two 70s and a 13 will get about 1/3 L13 drops, the game just has no idea who's going to pick up and roll on any given item - but what I meant was that "your" drops already scale to your own level. And if your whole team is 70s, all the drops will be 70s.
  • nunya#5309 nunya Posts: 230Member Arc User
    Maybe there's a ratio. I've never observed that, but I do run with my wife who also has level 70 characters only. When I'm in a dungeon with a lower level character, I tend not to roll on blue gear drops and just let them have it. I don't need anything that drops; it's all just for RP and I figure it's better to let them have it.
  • stormson#5521 stormson Posts: 34Member Arc User
    I play on Ps4 & don't have access to preview. As such, my comments are based solely on the information provided in the OP & math.
    The OP states that EVERYTHING- level, gear, enchants, runes, mounts- gets clamped to the level of the content.
    If that were indeed the case, all the wonderful things that add up to an 18k item level would be irrelevant, because in level 12 content you would be level 12, with level 12 stats.

    If the information provided in the OP is incomplete or inaccurate, then my arguments need not be discussed any further.

    Good day.
  • lowjohnlowjohn Posts: 556Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    Maybe there's a ratio. I've never observed that, but I do run with my wife who also has level 70 characters only. When I'm in a dungeon with a lower level character, I tend not to roll on blue gear drops and just let them have it. I don't need anything that drops; it's all just for RP and I figure it's better to let them have it.

    Blue gear drops are special. If they're blue gear that dropped randomly, like blue gear does in general, they'll be levelled based on the people in the instance. If they're dungeon-specific blue gear, where the blue gear is a lucky boss drop with a unique transmute, they'll be dungeon-level.
  • lowjohnlowjohn Posts: 556Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    I play on Ps4 & don't have access to preview. As such, my comments are based solely on the information provided in the OP & math.

    The OP states that EVERYTHING- level, gear, enchants, runes, mounts- gets clamped to the level of the content.

    If that were indeed the case, all the wonderful things that add up to an 18k item level would be irrelevant, because in level 12 content you would be level 12, with level 12 stats.



    If the information provided in the OP is incomplete or inaccurate, then my arguments need not be discussed any further.



    Good day.

    In content with a max level of 13, I'll be capped to "Level 13" (IL 45) gear scores, but of my current quality. So I'm rocking a full set of gold artifact "IL 45" gear, with every slot full of "IL 45" gems, all my set bonuses, all my stat boosts, with my damage reduced to that of "IL 45" weapons but with rank 4 powers and my full selection of powers available.

    Trust me, I'm still crushing it compared to a real level 13 dude. Even the level 58 guys in Caverns Of Karrundax won't have every gem slot filled, let alone the extra gem slots provided by higher level gear and all of those gems being the maximum possible for a "level 58" character.

    So it's not that the OP is inaccurate, per se, it's that your understanding of it is incomplete.

    Even if you don't want to play on PC, if you own even a half-decent PC with 20GB of disk space it might be worth installing Preview!Neverwinter. I believe you can unlock level 70 characters for free on Preview, and since everything on Preview is infinitely duplicatable you can just ask nicely in PE Zone and people will be happy to toss you enchantments and mounts and stuff from the copies they've made to let you play around for a bit.
  • tousseautousseau Posts: 1,370Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    One thing I noticed on the Random Ques... are we supposed to be getting Seals of the Brave now?
  • vordaynvordayn Posts: 906Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    tousseau said:

    One thing I noticed on the Random Ques... are we supposed to be getting Seals of the Brave now?

    Yes from here:

    Random: Leveling Queue — 8,000 AD 60 Seals of the Brave (Repeat: 1,000 AD / 20 Seals)
    Random: Intermediate Queue — 12,000 AD 100 Seals of the Brave (Repeat: 2,000 AD / 30 Seals | Role Bonus: 2,400 AD)
    Random: Advanced Queue — 15,000 AD 120 Seals of the Brave (Repeat: 3,000 AD / 40 Seals | Role Bonus: 3,000 AD)
    Random: Expert Queue — 2,500 RP 20 Seals of the Crown (Repeat: 1,000 RP / 10 Seals | Role Bonus: 5,000 AD)

    The weekly seal limit for Seals of the Brave has also been removed. There will still be a total cap before you can earn some more, just like Seals of the Protector now.
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  • nunya#5309 nunya Posts: 230Member Arc User
    lowjohn said:

    Maybe there's a ratio. I've never observed that, but I do run with my wife who also has level 70 characters only. When I'm in a dungeon with a lower level character, I tend not to roll on blue gear drops and just let them have it. I don't need anything that drops; it's all just for RP and I figure it's better to let them have it.

    Blue gear drops are special. If they're blue gear that dropped randomly, like blue gear does in general, they'll be levelled based on the people in the instance. If they're dungeon-specific blue gear, where the blue gear is a lucky boss drop with a unique transmute, they'll be dungeon-level.
    Right. However, I'm saying that even green gear that drops is all lower level when there's a lower level player near me. In fact, I was in a run just last night with a level 70 and a level 26. The other level 70 was faster than even I am, meaning the level 26 character ended up far, far, far behind both us. All the gear that dropped was white. There was no green or blue gear at all.
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