Bring back minimum IL requirement for lv 70 Random Skirmishes

oldtimer

I am all in favour of providing new players/casual players with more options especially to earn AD but this has got to stop. The amount of free loaders and afk/semi-afk leechers in random skirmish queue lately has exploded for me. I just got out of a POM (yes i know ) run where 3 of my teammates were below 4k item level, one of them even had the great idea to switch chars and abandon the run without a leaver penalty (don't even get me started on the amount of people abusing the switch char function to ruin runs without being penalized ).

Yesterday i was in a TODG and DL runs where all of my teammates except one were 4.5k or lower. 2 days ago i played a TODG where the combined IL of 3 of my teammates was less than 14.6k, none of them knew how hulks worked and i'm pretty sure i had to do over 80 million damage in that run to get Gold.

I have 4 alts without a single boon and no weapon/armor enchants and with minimal investment (less than 200k each ) they are all at capped armor pen at least ( the DPS ones ) and 8.1k + item level with proper build,gear and companion. Even without any of the hand me downs or account unlocks i have any new lv 70 can easily hit 6-6.5k with a decent stat distribution, Chult artifact weapons and geared companion with less than 100k AD invested. A 3.9k dps with 10% armor pen being allowed in lv 70 content is ridiculous, a character like this is completely useless in groups.

How many times am i going to have to eat the 30 minute leaver penalty because of this stupid system, do i need to only play on my main and do 99% of the work if i want to do skirmishes? Dealing 50-70 million damage in a single skirmish because all of your teammates are useless and/or leeching is funny once, not 2,3,4 or 5 times in a couple days.

greywynd

I was in Dread Legion a few days ago. There was an OP that stayed in the starting area until just before the Dread Hounds appeared. Then all he did was jump around, climb on the rocks, etc, and generally do nothing to contribute. I commented "I vote to kick the useless OP." His response was "Too bad you can't do that until 15 minutes are up." At least he didn't deny being useless.

oldtimer

greywynd said:

I was in Dread Legion a few days ago. There was an OP that stayed in the starting area until just before the Dread Hounds appeared. Then all he did was jump around, climb on the rocks, etc, and generally do nothing to contribute. I commented "I vote to kick the useless OP." His response was "Too bad you can't do that until 15 minutes are up." At least he didn't deny being useless.

DL seems to be the worst when it comes to this, i have someone afking at entrance the entire run only coming out to claim chest at the end every 2-3 runs now. I try my best to delay the run until 5 minutes are up and kick them but that almost never happens with how quick most runs are. Permabans need to be handed out, plenty of them and fast.

namelesshero347

I used to get upset at people who afk at the start only to run to the chest when it is over. But I get the sense some people are using second accounts to prime the RQ for MotH and DL. Since I can comfortably solo them under 5 minutes, I don't care anymore. I'm just glad I didn't get MotH or DL, and not PoM or ToDG, or IG where I worry about getting held hostage for gold.

dafrca

How would this impact the overall queue? Would this lock out all of the random skirmish queue to anyone who could not meet all of the IL requirements the way the RED does now? Or are you thinking more like the RD does where those with lower can still queue but just a limited list based on their levels?

wintersmoke

freshstart#9299 said:

I am all in favour of providing new players/casual players with more options especially to earn AD but this has got to stop. The amount of free loaders and afk/semi-afk leechers in random skirmish queue lately has exploded for me. I just got out of a POM (yes i know ) run where 3 of my teammates were below 4k item level, one of them even had the great idea to switch chars and abandon the run without a leaver penalty (don't even get me started on the amount of people abusing the switch char function to ruin runs without being penalized ).

Yesterday i was in a TODG and DL runs where all of my teammates except one were 4.5k or lower. 2 days ago i played a TODG where the combined IL of 3 of my teammates was less than 14.6k, none of them knew how hulks worked and i'm pretty sure i had to do over 80 million damage in that run to get Gold.

I have 4 alts without a single boon and no weapon/armor enchants and with minimal investment (less than 200k each ) they are all at capped armor pen at least ( the DPS ones ) and 8.1k + item level with proper build,gear and companion. Even without any of the hand me downs or account unlocks i have any new lv 70 can easily hit 6-6.5k with a decent stat distribution, Chult artifact weapons and geared companion with less than 100k AD invested. A 3.9k dps with 10% armor pen being allowed in lv 70 content is ridiculous, a character like this is completely useless in groups.

How many times am i going to have to eat the 30 minute leaver penalty because of this stupid system, do i need to only play on my main and do 99% of the work if i want to do skirmishes? Dealing 50-70 million damage in a single skirmish because all of your teammates are useless and/or leeching is funny once, not 2,3,4 or 5 times in a couple days.

Switching chratcters does not neceesarily avoid the leaver penalty. I logged in the other day and the two other toons dicoed out of Spellplague after the campfire spawn. I didn't want to take the leaver penalty, so I switched toons, and ran Cloack TOwer, When I went back to my first toon, I loaded PE & had the leaver penalty,

wintersmoke

wintersmoke said:

freshstart#9299 said:

I am all in favour of providing new players/casual players with more options especially to earn AD but this has got to stop. The amount of free loaders and afk/semi-afk leechers in random skirmish queue lately has exploded for me. I just got out of a POM (yes i know ) run where 3 of my teammates were below 4k item level, one of them even had the great idea to switch chars and abandon the run without a leaver penalty (don't even get me started on the amount of people abusing the switch char function to ruin runs without being penalized ).

Yesterday i was in a TODG and DL runs where all of my teammates except one were 4.5k or lower. 2 days ago i played a TODG where the combined IL of 3 of my teammates was less than 14.6k, none of them knew how hulks worked and i'm pretty sure i had to do over 80 million damage in that run to get Gold.

I have 4 alts without a single boon and no weapon/armor enchants and with minimal investment (less than 200k each ) they are all at capped armor pen at least ( the DPS ones ) and 8.1k + item level with proper build,gear and companion. Even without any of the hand me downs or account unlocks i have any new lv 70 can easily hit 6-6.5k with a decent stat distribution, Chult artifact weapons and geared companion with less than 100k AD invested. A 3.9k dps with 10% armor pen being allowed in lv 70 content is ridiculous, a character like this is completely useless in groups.

How many times am i going to have to eat the 30 minute leaver penalty because of this stupid system, do i need to only play on my main and do 99% of the work if i want to do skirmishes? Dealing 50-70 million damage in a single skirmish because all of your teammates are useless and/or leeching is funny once, not 2,3,4 or 5 times in a couple days.

Switching chratcters does not neceesarily avoid the leaver penalty. I logged in the other day and the two other toons dicoed out of Spellplague after the campfire spawn. I didn't want to take the leaver penalty, so I switched toons, and ran Cloack TOwer, When I went back to my first toon, I loaded PE & had the leaver penalty,

Also, it's not 15 minutes to kick, it's 5 mins. Many POM & TODG runs have waited at the door to kick a disco duck.

oldtimer

dafrca#4810 said:

How would this impact the overall queue? Would this lock out all of the random skirmish queue to anyone who could not meet all of the IL requirements the way the RED does now? Or are you thinking more like the RD does where those with lower can still queue but just a limited list based on their levels?

Like i said i'm hesitant to propose anything that would lower AD earning potential especially for new players so locking them out completely is out of the question. Do it just like leveling skirmishes/dungeons do it - after you qualify for one piece of content in the queue you can use it to get your daily AD bonus and you can only ever be placed in the content you are eligible for based on item level. It's actually moronic that this hasn't been implented for all random queues not just skirmishes.

The minimum IL requirements need to be high enough so that no freeloader or completely clueless individual can just hop into queue and ruin a run without putting in some effort into their character, with a *tier* split between MOH and DL on the lower end and TODG,POM and IG on the upper end. I'll have to run the exact numbers on what those minimums would be but it's safe to assume that my initial estimate of 6 to 6.5k would be about accurate which is completely fair even for for an absolute newbie.

oldtimer

wintersmoke said:

Switching chratcters does not neceesarily avoid the leaver penalty. I logged in the other day and the two other toons dicoed out of Spellplague after the campfire spawn. I didn't want to take the leaver penalty, so I switched toons, and ran Cloack TOwer, When I went back to my first toon, I loaded PE & had the leaver penalty,

It doesn't matter if they don't end up avoiding it in the end, switching chars is griefing done with the intention of avoiding the queue penalty and completely ruins the run for 2 or 4 other people. At the very least 3 pieces of content ( TODG, POM and leveling SP ) can't be entered or in the case of SP completed with a dc'd individual because the gates will never open.

Leaving a run by switching characters should be at the very least an immediate account wide queue ban for several hours if not a full 24 hours.

oldtimer

So i just did some numbers and according to my calculations the minimum item level to enter MOH and DL should be no less than 5000. While this won't really make a character useful or prevent people from leeching it is at least a perfectly reasonable expectation towards new players and characters while serving as a way to teach complete newbies about most of what they would need to do to eventually achieve a proper geared character.

The item level of a completely fresh lv 70 with zero mount insignias, account unlocks or boons of any kind would be no less than 4121.

10 pieces of gear 345 IL each ( the IL of the gear set from Elemental Evil campaign and the IL of all cheap as peanuts lv 70 blue gear in the AH ) = 3450 total IL
Shirt from Elemental Evil quests = 276 IL
Pants from Elemental Evil quests = 333 IL from Spinward Rise
Free companion while leveling - 10 IL
Free starter green artifact while leveling = 52 IL

Total = 4121 IL

Consider that a completely fresh player will have at least 13 enchantment/runestone slots ( more likely 15 ), at least 2 mount insignia slots and at least 2 companion gear slots absolutely free. Without any Zen or more than a single RQ leveling dungeon run worth of AD spent it is perfectly possible to achieve 4811 IL with zero enchants, mount powers, account unlocks, insignias or extra artifacts and easily achieve 5000 with entry level enchants alone.

5000 IL is still a useless character but it should be a mandatory requirement in my opinion for MOH and DL. TODG, POM IG would be no less than 6000 to 6500 in line with my initial rough estimate. I would still hate to have to carry such a character but at least it shows the put some effort in instead of sitting in the middle of the room of TODG with less IL than a lv 65 char.

bodini72

i see the abuse all the time and when i call them out on it their response usually is "i only use this alt for my AD". It boggles my mind that there are people out there so selfish as to think THAT response is an acceptable "reason" that they are abusing the system.

i've had ppl give me a hard time because i'm "being mean to them" by calling them out on cheating.

I've seen many runs where the abuser either doesn't bother to move at all or the damage they do is so low they might as well not be there. It is nothing short of an insult to every single person that plays this game and doesn't cheat.

If a player is legit new, i have absolutley no problem helping them out by either carrying or aiding them but that is hardly ever the circumstance.

The other day i ran into an actual newbie with a 5k IL, at first i called them out on cheating but after conversing back and fourth for a couple min i understood he was truly new and offered advice for the rest of the run with no issues. He thanked me at the end and i apologized for calling him a cheat. This was the first time i actually ran into a new lv 70 player and not someone that is cheating.

greywynd

Characters should be ready for whatever content they are planning to run before they queue for it. That is on the player. As such, if they change characters to fetch stuff that they should have already, then yes, they should be kicked for changing characters automatically.

asterotg

greywynd said:

Characters should be ready for whatever content they are planning to run before they queue for it. That is on the player. As such, if they change characters to fetch stuff that they should have already, then yes, they should be kicked for changing characters automatically.

While I tend to agree, there are exceptions. I did help out sometimes in TONG runs. A friend did run with guild mates. They had HAMSTER gear and bad weapon enchants, so I switched to alts and grabbed a few transcendent weapon enchants, to finish the runs. In RQ I obviously would not do this. I dont want to sound pessimistic, but in 9 of 10 times I could say goodbye to my enchants.

oldtimer

spunkmeier said:

Can changing character ever really be called griefing?

You always get the penalty when swapping so it is not griefing for that reason. The griefing part would be the ruining of runs for other people but Cryptic/devs just dont care on this ruining runs for others issue as it has been this way for months now, with all sorts of scummy/useless players and freeloaders spoiling runs, with nothing done about it.

Any form of long account ban would just see the leavers change to standing there doing nothing until you kick them. The penalty for being kicked would remain thirty minutes on character which is a lot less than an hours/day long account ban.

You would just be changing the form of the griefing from people swapping characters to people just standing there, and as far as I can tell the kick timer is often longer than the game automatically removing swapped characters timer is so you would be wasting more of your own time waiting to kick someone. The actual swapped character auto-kick timer should be five minutes, the player kick timer itself should also be five minutes but in reality is anything between five and fifteen minutes.

Plenty of people dont know that swapping characters does not abandon the dungeon/skirmish and they are left in it. But yes, plenty of people just dont care. This is both poor communication and bad game design that needs fixed somehow.

There is no good reason to do anything other than automatically kick people changing characters immediately on the change. Yes, the sole argument against is that someone might want to change characters to get enchants but the counter is, of course, that they should have done this before going into the content.

The only truely guaranteed queue penalty is by pressing abandon instance and accepting it. The game communicates to you that leaving a run you have entered is not acceptable and you will be punished for 30 minutes if you choose to do so. Any action you take to avoid this deliberatly is exploiting, i called it griefing because as the system is now swapping chars also completely screws over your teammates for no less than 5 minutes if you were not well into the run already ( and in the case of leveling SP at least, completely screws them anyway for up to 15 minutes ).

People doing this need to have their accounts banned straight up, i only mentioned a long queue ban not because i like the idea or think that it will work well but because a player who is truely ignorant about how the current system works and ends up eating a penalty for it should not be punished too severely. A few hour queue ban i'm fine with, 24 hours and harsher punishments should be reserved for intentional and repeat offenders.

The system needs to be changed drastically and no fix will ever stop griefing/leecheing, i completely agree but just because the system sucks now doesn't mean that we should accept the few flaws that shouldn't have been there in the first place. I want the kick vote to be reduced to 2 minutes max, the automatic kick to fire off much faster and more reliably, the 15 minute wait to abandon instance be reduced, the 4 hour lock out for initiating kicks to be removed, a new *Griefing* kick option be introduced that will directly lead to severe penalties for anyone voted out repeatedly with it but i'm not going to get all of that or probably any of it. As long as the people griefing/leeching RIGHT NOW are banned or "persuaded" to stop being HAMSTER i don't really care how it is accomplished and i'd be happy to wait a bit for actual fixes.

oldtimer

spunkmeier said:

snipped so this post isn't gigantic

I get what you are saying and i am in complete agreement with pretty much everything you said. Thing is the devs won't cave anytime soon and do what is right which is removing random queue and removing/severely decreasing the queue penalty and kick timers so i'm advocating at least for consistency in the HAMSTER show we have now.

I absolutely despise random queues and think they are the worst thing to ever be done with the dungeon system. I am also not the biggest fan of queue penalties but to be fair i wouldn't care as much if it was reduced down to say 5-10 minutes max and i had the freedom to queue for the content i want like i could before. If i wasn't forced to use random queues i wouldn't be advocating for any of the things i've mentioned in this thread, nor would the problems we are facing be nearly as bad as they are now.

But let's be fair, the golden days of being able to queue for what you want to play and leave at will without being penalized are gone and won't come back until Cryptic loses enough money from it. Random queues are here to stay and so is the leaver penalty so it needs to be enforced properly.

The person trying to change chars in public random queue should be booted from the instance instantly and the way queues are set up it makes no sense for them not to receive the queue penalty. Maybe the best thing they can do at the moment is put a prompt identical to the abandon instance one if you are in random queue and click on change char, that will remove ignorance from the equation since it will be clearly displayed that you will be removed from instance and be slapped with the penalty. That way the person would also be counted as the first leaver giving everyone else the chance to leave without a penalty which is maybe the only good thing about random queues.

This would only be needed in public queues and should not exist for private queues. Is it a good fix? No, but i'm not holding my breath that they will fix gates to open with less than a full party and if they aren't going to make auto kick fire off consistently then something else needs to be implemented to remove players reliably. I don't mind doing content with a 4 man party, i do mind waiting 5 minutes in front of TODG gate and not being able to play at all or get a reinforcement in. The fact that a person switching chars doesn't remove the leave penalty from the rest of the party is what really grinds my gears. They want to leave? Let them, but if there is going to be a penalty for leaving penalize THEM not me or the other players in the group.

Sure unavoidable queue penalties will force people to just stay in the run and troll but those people have always existed and there is nothing we can do to deal with that problem. Only thing we can really do is have the ability to kick them right away and we can't do that so...

I don't like any of the stuff i've proposed apart from the minimum IL on skirmishes but i'm not exactly optimistic that what i really want will get implemented maybe even ever again so whatever they change to make this HAMSTER more tolerable i'm all for at this point.