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Commaders Strike vs Griffin Wrath

ultimatefgt123ultimatefgt123 Posts: 74Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
edited March 11 in The Guard Barracks
Running T9G with 15k+ groups with 2DC 1OP 1GF (conq) and 1Hdps.

Playing GF in support role (aka no red gem buff on Orcus etc)

Which is the better encounter for boss fights? Which is better overall dps/faster runs?

Personal dps and use GW+Soulsight?

Or max support and use CS+lantern?

Is CS only better for GWF groups? Or do HR/CW/SW/TR groups also benefit more?

I've tried both and it's been.. inconclusive.. Whats peoples opinions?

Comments

  • eclipseblood#1326 eclipseblood Posts: 117Member Arc User
    Tbh, the buffs tac gives the gf party arent overly better than the pure damage increase the the conq tree gives (if speced for dps), commander strike is good but thats only for one encounter while a good dps gf can add alot more damage into the mix while still providing a good amount of buffs (think tac has a 5% more increase to fray if i remember right). That said, running a gf as a buff tank instead of a dps buffer still works, the paladin could run devotion and bane the main dps throughout the run which is a pretty good damage increase.
  • boromir#3940 boromir Posts: 104Member Arc User
    If you are conqueror spec and the pally is doing the tanking, then KC and knee breaker. Griffins is for those who can pull off some serious damage. Trex’s, pally goes devo and gives you bane etc. The bad part is you could get interrupted by Orcus and his push back power. Or he flies off right before you are all powered up and ready to do your next rotation. That’s a rotation wasted, or 2. You can usually get 2 kneebreakers off while under KC.

    The only time I use CS is without a pally in the group, but rather 2 dps. Doing the actual tanking I don’t like to use KC. I pop potions, food and swap my mount equip for recovery. Hard mark, fray, knee breaker and then CS. Repeat. This keeps crushing pin up nearly full time in the fight. I get hit so much in this scenario that I don’t even bother with survivor’s wraps. And I naturally don’t take the dps potion on the right.

    As well, the 2 dps and no pally setup hopefully has a HR or CW. More encounters equals more damage possibilities. Unlike 2 GWF’s that only have one encounter worth the CS buff. Although, when it hits it hits hard.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Posts: 3,494Member Arc User
    edited March 12
    ITF+KB+GW is also an Option as conqu GF. At least I use it at Ras Ni since my dps GF can't tank him normally (random groups) and prevents that boss from switching between 2 tanks and the timing for KC is a pretty hard task in that fight.
    KC= you tank that boss, wich is an easy task at tong-boss 1and 2 as dps GF.
    As a tact GF..., ITF+KB+ mostly CS.
    If I run beside a hard hitting GWF I would try to switch GW for KB. I never tried KC+CS beside a "dps monster", does KC double CS?
    And does KB stack, anyone?
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Posts: 1,643Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User


    As a tact GF..., ITF+KB+ mostly CS.

    Why you would ever use Knee Breaker on Tactician is beyond me.

    Knee Breaker will only place Crushing Pin on the kicking hitbox. The DoT will only apply for the first 2-3 ticks of Knee Breaker.
    The only advantage it could possibly have is keeping yourself alive to keep Fighter's Recovery healing, but you can grab something called "Jagged Blades" which does the same thing and lets you pick something more useful.

    You could instead pick abilities that keep up Crushing Pin on the target more consistently, like spacing out Griffons Wrath charges, or Knight's Valor for protecting the team.


    If I run beside a hard hitting GWF I would try to switch GW for KB. I never tried KC+CS beside a "dps monster", does KC double CS?

    If you roll with people like WickedDuck, Freedom, or Tardli, why would you ever use Knee Breaker or Commander's Strike?

    Knee Breaker will only outshine Griffons in damage output if you multi stack Knee Breaker, or if you only have one stack on the target, wait out one and a half full Knee Breaker cycles (closer to 2 if you can do Griffon's Math).

    Except, if you are running with good DPSers who deal a ton of damage, fights won't last long to begin with. You might as well go with Griffons and assist in bursting down the boss.

    If you are even half decent at playing DPS GF, your Griffons Wrath/Anvil hits will add far more to the team's damage output than any amount of Commander's Strike spam.

    The faster you burn through the boss, the faster you get through the dungeon. Even if you won't be the top paingiver, why would you want to go through the dungeon slower?
    You can't let yourself be held back by common sense.
  • boromir#3940 boromir Posts: 104Member Arc User
    If knee breaker will keep crushing pin up with the dots, then it is an amazing power. Why? It hits harder than anything besides the anvil when enemy is under half health.

    So let us consider the fray, knee breaker and CS combo.....for particular situations/group compositions. Cool downs are roughly the same between all three. So the rotation is smooth. 2-3 ticks after the initial hit means 2-3 seconds after the initial hit in question. So 3 seconds after that is when crushing pin stops. Therefore, if you can land a knee breaker roughly every 6-7 seconds....then it stays up full time. Which makes CS hit harder for teammates. Which is the point.

    Spacing out Griffins defeats the purpose of Griffins. The damage stacks and is only good if you use all 3 charges in a row. So if tats the best way to use Griffins, then it’s not going to keep crushing pin up very long. Instead you’ll be waiting on charges to do another set of 3.

    Knee breaker and Griffins is ok, and I’ve used this before. Keep crushing pin up full time with knee breaker and use all 3 Griffins when all 3 charges are available.
  • dairyzeusdairyzeus Posts: 262Member Arc User
    I think the original question really comes down to how much damage you (as the GF) can do.

    If you can do more single target damage than your other DPS this question is pointless as you would be taking the damage buff and going full DPS.

    If you can do as much damage as the other DPS, I'd keep running KC and GW/KB.

    If you arn't doing much damage (I'd first ask why you're conq to begin with...) then I'd probably go with commander's strike and kneebreaker (especially in 10 man content as commander's strike is a raid wide buff).

    (According to the last thing RJC told me) Kneebreaker only procs crushing pin on the first hit, but with cleric/pally resets uptime still shouldn't be too bad.



    I think the bigger thing to note here is that if you find yourself in a position where you're a conq GF and not the highest single target DPS, you're far better working on your single target rotation so you can be the boss melter you're supposed to be.
  • manipulosmanipulos Posts: 169Member Arc User

    Running T9G with 15k+ groups with 2DC 1OP 1GF (conq) and 1Hdps.



    Playing GF in support role (aka no red gem buff on Orcus etc)



    Which is the better encounter for boss fights? Which is better overall dps/faster runs?



    Personal dps and use GW+Soulsight?



    Or max support and use CS+lantern?



    Is CS only better for GWF groups? Or do HR/CW/SW/TR groups also benefit more?



    I've tried both and it's been.. inconclusive.. Whats peoples opinions?

    I would say it depends on your party, but for the party you listed if everyone is 15k+ and you have 2 DC's and an OP I can't imagine any scenario where the "buff" GF helps your party more than the massive extra damage the dps GF brings.

    Others in this thread have mentioned KB vs. GW and I will tell you my personal experience is that Soulsight+KC+GW always performs better for me than KB in place of GW. I don't run ACT though so someone that does can feel free to chime in, I'm just sharing how it's worked for me.

    For T9G in particular I still struggle with getting killed at Ras Nsi by his burn dot, but it feels like that is largely out of my hands at that point. It happens when he karate chops me on the head then starts teleporting to the sides to do his red stripes, I end up with nothing to attack for lifesteal while waiting for a cleanse to kick in. If anyone has a suggestion I would love to hear it. I've tried swapping SWW for Guarded Assualt, keeping KB ticking on him at all times, I still go down. I've given up running it on my GF unless we have 2 DC's, or I just switch to my tank gear at Ras Nsi and give up all the extra damage for that fight.

  • xs13redxs13red Posts: 76Member Arc User
    The burn dot has killed many a time. Cleanse WILL NOT help. The Dcs are too busy to notice you are one tic away from death. Once I started raising shield when i see the red BURN show up I surrvived. The Cleanse hurts our damage output.
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  • manipulosmanipulos Posts: 169Member Arc User
    xs13red said:

    The burn dot has killed many a time. Cleanse WILL NOT help. The Dcs are too busy to notice you are one tic away from death. Once I started raising shield when i see the red BURN show up I surrvived. The Cleanse hurts our damage output.

    I can take a couple ticks doing that but that's it. Our groups always stand in the middle of the platform and wait for Ras Nsi to stop teleporting around so I'm wondering if my only chance is to keep chasing him around and attacking, because the lifesteal will keep me up I'm sure. Sorry this is somewhat offtopic.

  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Posts: 667Member Arc User
    edited March 14
    Here's something that GFs are forgetting lately: use that god damned tab. I tend to not care too much on trash, but on bosses there really isn't an excuse for not doing it.
    Anyways, KB is currently, while a decent power, not the best one. CS when supporting, GW when main DPS. Also there are probably better artis for tact GFs than lantern.
  • pitshadepitshade Posts: 2,998Member Arc User
    Most bosses are kind of scary. No point antagonizing them any more than you have to.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Posts: 1,960Member Arc User
    edited March 15
    Just did T9 with two GF. One full on DPS and the other full on Tac. OP > GF for tanking and buffing. PERIOD. The devs need to either provide GF more buffing power as Tac build or GF will never really tank again in this game.

    IMO if you are tanking as a GF you go CS all the way. You also should be using KV on the 2nd boss at minimum to keep the group alive as you don't have as many damage reduction abilities as an OP does.

    If you are not playing the primary tank, go with ITF, KC and KB or GF. GF does wonders if the group communicates and plans the buff rotations. For instance, if the DO drops HG and than stat Empowered BtS along with AA going off you better be getting your daily, ITF, KC and than use three GF in a row. I know one GF that was full on tank but now is mostly trying to run his GF as a DPS.
  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Posts: 775Member Arc User
    edited March 15
    @dairyzeus I'm pretty sure Comander's Strike works for the group only, I remember @kacezet tested that out with ACT back in mod 10.5 so, unless CS was recently tweaked, it should be a group only thing yet (like ITF)
  • dairyzeusdairyzeus Posts: 262Member Arc User

    @dairyzeus I'm pretty sure Comander's Strike works for the group only, I remember @kacezet tested that out with ACT back in mod 10.5 so, unless CS was recently tweaked, it should be a group only thing yet (like ITF)

    Really? I'm going off the fact that the last few times I did msva (maybe a month ago?) I tried out commander's and definitely saw the text proc above every persons head (in group or not).

    Obviously that's more anecdotal evidence than anything solid, so I'd be interested to know if I'm wrong.
  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Posts: 775Member Arc User
    edited March 16
    @dairyzeus

    When @kacezet (dps GF "Bethel") tried that out with ACT, it worked only for group members.

    If I remember correctly, when running MSVA (over a year ago) I asked people in the instance (but not in my group) if they could see "Commander's Strike" popping up on their screen and their answer was no (I'd assume they can still hear it though)
  • ultimatefgt123ultimatefgt123 Posts: 74Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited March 16
    Im enjoying this thread, lots of variations of opinions but it still doesn't look too clear cut, personally as a conq dps gf in a 'support slot' on bosses i'm still swapping between the 2 -sometimes itf+kc+gw +soulsight and sometimes itf+cs+kb +lantern..

    is there anything definitive about CS with regards to its current mechanics?

    from what i've read it only adds an additional 40% hit of the 1 encounter power from the ally that triggered it rather than a literal 40% buff to its base damage.

    what about if you use an aoe encounter power on a group of mobs? does it add the 40% hit on each of them or just the 1st target? I tend to run ITF+ET+CS +lantern on trash mainly for max aoe buff/debuff (as our personal dps comes from WMS) ..but that's also because i may be erroneously believing that there is synergy between the aoe mark and CS?

    as someone else mentioned for example i see it proc over each party member - but you dont see it if you are an ally being buffed by it, you just go by its sound, but does it only provide the 40% extra hit to the 1st encounter used by the 1st player to hit the marked target?

    Also someone mentioned KC+CS, its completely anecdotal and probably just my own imagining but it seems like the bonus damage done by the ally when using KC+CS is bigger than just CS by itself, has anyone confirmed that that's wishful thinking on my part and it only does the flat 40% bonus strike even with KC on?
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Posts: 3,494Member Arc User
    edited March 16
    rjc9000 said:


    As a tact GF..., ITF+KB+ mostly CS.

    Why you would ever use Knee Breaker on Tactician is beyond me.

    Knee Breaker will only place Crushing Pin on the kicking hitbox. The DoT will only apply for the first 2-3 ticks of Knee Breaker.
    The only advantage it could possibly have is keeping yourself alive to keep Fighter's Recovery healing, but you can grab something called "Jagged Blades" which does the same thing and lets you pick something more useful.

    You could instead pick abilities that keep up Crushing Pin on the target more consistently, like spacing out Griffons Wrath charges, or Knight's Valor for protecting the team.


    If I run beside a hard hitting GWF I would try to switch GW for KB. I never tried KC+CS beside a "dps monster", does KC double CS?

    If you roll with people like WickedDuck, Freedom, or Tardli, why would you ever use Knee Breaker or Commander's Strike?

    Knee Breaker will only outshine Griffons in damage output if you multi stack Knee Breaker, or if you only have one stack on the target, wait out one and a half full Knee Breaker cycles (closer to 2 if you can do Griffon's Math).

    Except, if you are running with good DPSers who deal a ton of damage, fights won't last long to begin with. You might as well go with Griffons and assist in bursting down the boss.

    If you are even half decent at playing DPS GF, your Griffons Wrath/Anvil hits will add far more to the team's damage output than any amount of Commander's Strike spam.

    The faster you burn through the boss, the faster you get through the dungeon. Even if you won't be the top paingiver, why would you want to go through the dungeon slower?
    1. As a conqueror/dps it´s also about if, or if not running a Crystal.
    If you monitor the dps you deal by running ITF+KC+KB and ITF+KC+GW there is no difference, honestly I do better by using KB instead GW. I deal a ton of damage with Crushing Surge, this ammount is lowered significant if I run GW.
    2. As a tank I use KV as tactitian if I "can", but in some cases KV kills you, and I can´t support being dead.
    If that Paladin facetanks Ras Ni and takes huge hits, same as the positioning of your teammember is "suboptimal" on top, you get onehittet if you drop your shield for a short period..anyway I near never run tactitian in tong, in every average group it´s the worse choice imo.
    3. As a tact, KB is the "easy way", apply and forget and also for the LS. GW takes it´s time and also forces you to lower your shield pretty often, that´s why I stick with KB if not CS. I think CS can be a good choice in some cases considered as a dps buff, depends on your teammates and can deal huge ammounts, that encounter itself deals solid damage witha pretty short CD and if your GWF hits for 30 mio IBS..
    Honstely I did not monitor the uptime of CP, maybe GW will be the better "buff" that way. So if I can´t use KV somehow I go with CS/KB/GW (two out of three).
    But I will try Anvil+GW next time on Ras NI, the perfect setup will be Anvil at 50% though. The difference is not that big as you point out I am sure, my KB 107k my Anvil 66k (x2 below 50%) and KB CD is a bit shorter.
    I also run ET+lunging strike doing trash, maybe there are player that prefer other setups, idk.

    To be recognized !
    In a maxed setup , allways running beside the same partymember everything is easy. In a random group with random player it´s not.
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • kacezetkacezet Posts: 193Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    I just done random Tiamat with ACT and CS still procs only for your party.
    dairyzeus said:

    Really? I'm going off the fact that the last few times I did msva (maybe a month ago?) I tried out commander's and definitely saw the text proc above every persons head (in group or not).

    It procs on companions in your party, that's why in 10-man content you can see the blue text 9x.


  • dairyzeusdairyzeus Posts: 262Member Arc User
    kacezet said:

    I just done random Tiamat with ACT and CS still procs only for your party.

    dairyzeus said:

    Really? I'm going off the fact that the last few times I did msva (maybe a month ago?) I tried out commander's and definitely saw the text proc above every persons head (in group or not).

    It procs on companions in your party, that's why in 10-man content you can see the blue text 9x.


    Thanks @kacezet, good to know.
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