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[Player Request] Be Kinder to Each Other

dupeksdupeks Posts: 1,680Member Arc User
edited March 2 in General Discussion (PC)
I'd like to challenge all forum users to assume better about one another.

Maybe it's me getting older and more cynical, but it's my opinion that the forums have gotten more toxic over time, more flaming, less understanding.
Maybe it's me getting nostalgic about the past, but it's my opinion that players in the game have gotten less patient, less helpful, and ruder.

I think that's no good. Please be kinder to each other. Assume others have good intentions rather than ill. Support each other.

I wanted to share with you one of the quotes that has shaped me most and helped ground me in dark times. Please give it some consideration.

"Life is mostly froth and bubble,
Two things stand like stone.
Kindness in another's trouble,
Courage in your own."
- Adam Lindsay Gordon
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Comments

  • wintersmokewintersmoke Posts: 901Member Arc User

    I also love pickles, and you seem like a stand up person. You have my vote.

    Pickles!
  • ilmenirailmenira Posts: 260Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited March 2
    :)

    thank you for this request!
    i find kindness is one of the things which makes this game most enjoyable!
    when kindness emerges in a dungeon run, sometimes even when riding past each other or dismounting at the merchant... it's like the sun free from clouds for a bright, friendly moment.
  • wintersmokewintersmoke Posts: 901Member Arc User

    If the game encourages cooperation, players will generally be more cooperative

    If the game encourages competition, players will generally compete amongst themselves

    When the game changes itself in a way perceived as unfair, many players will do whatever they can to cheat the game and feel justified in playing selfishly

    Devs can't make players behave, but they can do a lot to encourage it if they try

    As for the forums, I was modding forums 20 years ago and places like this have always attracted people that refuse to read, be polite, understand or show any sort of restraint... that's just the nature of internet forums, unfortunately

    It all comes down to individual choices and maturity or lack thereof, so if you want a better community, all you can do is consistently set a great example (which the OP and many others do,) and try to create and environment of respect

    ...and if people would stop feeding the trolls that would also help

    I agree, butt... (there's always one, right) from what I can see, the devs have tried over and over again to make us cooperate. They have tried separating characters by level, so that we would only run with like level players... and that didn't work. They have tried throwing characters of different levels together, in the hopes that older, more experienced players would help newer players. That also seems not to be working. I don't know what more the devs can do to enforce cooperation, short of adding a friendship point system. And I can even see how that could be abused. 0,o

  • wintersmokewintersmoke Posts: 901Member Arc User

    I also love pickles, and you seem like a stand up person. You have my vote.

    If you like the pickles, might I recommend the kimchi? If you cannot find a Korean store/restaurant near you, there is a woman on YouTube, Maangchi, that does Korean food tutorials.
  • callumf#9018 callumf Posts: 605Member Arc User

    I remember a long time ago in another game the devs introduced a horse race event that everybody wanted to try

    At first, there was a crowd of players in a big ball and everyone was frantically clicking on the NPC to get in

    Eventually, a line formed, and no matter how long it became, players would see it and take their place in line quietly

    This was remarkable, and I believe it was mostly due to other aspects of that game that had been designed to encourage fairness and cooperation

    What game was that please?
  • chidionchidion Posts: 332Member Arc User
    edited March 5

    I agree, butt... (there's always one, right) from what I can see, the devs have tried over and over again to make us cooperate. They have tried separating characters by level, so that we would only run with like level players... and that didn't work. They have tried throwing characters of different levels together, in the hopes that older, more experienced players would help newer players. That also seems not to be working. I don't know what more the devs can do to enforce cooperation, short of adding a friendship point system. And I can even see how that could be abused. 0,o

    I had this nightmare that because of the HAMSTER way some players treat other players the developers decided to do away with most AD runs and instead went toward putting small amounts of AD's in the rewards at the end of completing actual game content like the Tower District, Blackdagger ruins and Reclamation Rock, the more difficult the content the larger the AD reward would be…

    Of course this tended to upset everybody and players were saying: “I wish we could go back to random queue dungeons, this new method is HAMSTER”…

    But then if players persistently abuse the current content and complain loud and long enough, I suppose some nightmares can come true.

    According to the post announcing the dungeon changes to random queues, some players were repeatedly running the same private dungeons over and over making queue times excessively long, so the developers went to the random queue to solve that problem, just like they removed the AD’s from invoking and the leadership profession because those methods were also being abused.

    If the random dungeon queues become a similar problem and people complain enough I have little doubt that we will probably see more and possibly even less palatable changes coming to the way players earn AD’s.
  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Posts: 152Member Arc User
    edited March 6
    Now that I have more time, I'll actually contribute here something.

    In the T1-T2, the actual problem is not how we queue in, but how the dungeon are designed. I'm specifically pointing at Valindra's tower, because that thing is brutally toxic and eToS, because that was the main reason for the random queues (which is a big failure as well).

    So, where VT failed to give a good experience and became a frustration that generates the toxicity:
    VT was one of the first epic dungeons player tend to do when reaching level 70 (remember that ESoT and Kessel used to count as a Skirmish into the rAD). VT is an outdoor dungeon and it has minimal bumping point to slow down the players. Basically, if you have a fast mount, you run until the 1. gate to stop you and you just slaughter up the trash following you. You 'cheat' the cubes with going through the gate fast or even before Shatterspine, even if there's a gate before, you just go there fast and the mobs can't follow you. Everyone runs and if someone left behind or dies... bad for him, because he has to get through everything the others left, making the others waiting... Almost all the chest is mimic and I'm glad that we just silently used to not open like anything except endgame chest, but those who just got level 70... The ghosts just doesn't let anyone to be resurrected at the boss (but now we can overheal their damage, so not a problem anymore) and the mechanics are forced upon the players, making the end 1 min burst 1 min pointless running, 1 min burst, 2 min. pointless running, 0.5 min burst.

    This is a horrible experience and unintelligent design, definitely not something to share. But, you can get through fast, so until RQ came along, people who cannot speedrun etos, basically injected this toxic stuff in themselves.

    eToS was a kind of better thing, because at least it was only bad for those who don't know the 'shortcuts' and somehow left behind, but it was way too easy comparing to the other 2 dungeon. Even the boss is, compare Syndrith into Marrowslake or Blackdagger and see how little teamwork it needs. Be strong, slay it down and maybe 1 person needs to care about the blue line that heals the boss.

    So, basically, in my opinion this 2 dungeon was the thing contributing into making new players feel bad, but mostly VT. If you just queued into VT knowing mostly nothing, you made everyone angry. That dungeon should be redesigned.


    Rant on random queue:
    RQ is horrible design too to get "older players help the lesser geared". First, I'm 16k and do you know what I not wanted? Leveling dungeons, carrying whole teams into gold IG (even tho I want bronze and they just cannot go gold by their own, but 2-2 and an afker is a way to go more) or just get 2 hour/failed FBI-MSP. The afkers in leveling dungeons are basic abuse of the kicking rules. The whole IG is hell. 3 players queue in IG to abuse the voting, gets dropped in random queue (without them knowing they are not even 'wanted' IG) and cheats the hell out of the system. In the other side, the 15 min until you abandon an MSP because the unability to success is horrible as well. Basically, why MC and MSP in the same bracket? Why it's 15 min, when most content are done in that amount of time?

    There's a big difference between helping and "being forced to be a carry-bot for people that basically exploit or downright ignorant"

    Edit: I actually want to specifically note out the State of the game talk, where the devs "want to hear the Xbox audience's opinion about the RQ before tweaking it", which basically means that 1, We are forced being in that state way longer than we should. 2, They are forced being in that state way longer than they should.
  • greywyndgreywynd Posts: 2,570Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Except that the cubes do go through the gates, even before you bring them down. Honestly there is nothing to be gained by not killing stuff as you come to it. You do not save any time.
    Who watches the watchmen?

    With your shield or on it.
  • pitshadepitshade Posts: 3,347Member Arc User
    It is possible to reach the tower and enter before the cubes catch up, in which case they never will. Unfortunately, because some can do it, everyone tries to do so.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Posts: 152Member Arc User
    edited March 6
    kreatyve said:

    Now that I have more time, I'll actually contribute here something.

    In the T1-T2, the actual problem is not how we queue in, but how the dungeon are designed. I'm specifically pointing at Valindra's tower, because that thing is brutally toxic and eToS, because that was the main reason for the random queues (which is a big failure as well).

    So, where VT failed to give a good experience and became a frustration that generates the toxicity:

    VT was one of the first epic dungeons player tend to do when reaching level 70 (remember that ESoT and Kessel used to count as a Skirmish into the rAD). VT is an outdoor dungeon and it has minimal bumping point to slow down the players. Basically, if you have a fast mount, you run until the 1. gate to stop you and you just slaughter up the trash following you. You 'cheat' the cubes with going through the gate fast or even before Shatterspine, even if there's a gate before, you just go there fast and the mobs can't follow you. Everyone runs and if someone left behind or dies... bad for him, because he has to get through everything the others left, making the others waiting... Almost all the chest is mimic and I'm glad that we just silently used to not open like anything except endgame chest, but those who just got level 70... The ghosts just doesn't let anyone to be resurrected at the boss (but now we can overheal their damage, so not a problem anymore) and the mechanics are forced upon the players, making the end 1 min burst 1 min pointless running, 1 min burst, 2 min. pointless running, 0.5 min burst.

    This is a horrible experience and unintelligent design, definitely not something to share. But, you can get through fast, so until RQ came along, people who cannot speedrun etos, basically injected this toxic stuff in themselves.

    eToS was a kind of better thing, because at least it was only bad for those who don't know the 'shortcuts' and somehow left behind, but it was way too easy comparing to the other 2 dungeon. Even the boss is, compare Syndrith into Marrowslake or Blackdagger and see how little teamwork it needs. Be strong, slay it down and maybe 1 person needs to care about the blue line that heals the boss.

    So, basically, in my opinion this 2 dungeon was the thing contributing into making new players feel bad, but mostly VT. If you just queued into VT knowing mostly nothing, you made everyone angry. That dungeon should be redesigned.


    Rant on random queue:
    RQ is horrible design too to get "older players help the lesser geared". First, I'm 16k and do you know what I not wanted? Leveling dungeons, carrying whole teams into gold IG (even tho I want bronze and they just cannot go gold by their own, but 2-2 and an afker is a way to go more) or just get 2 hour/failed FBI-MSP. The afkers in leveling dungeons are basic abuse of the kicking rules. The whole IG is hell. 3 players queue in IG to abuse the voting, gets dropped in random queue (without them knowing they are not even 'wanted' IG) and cheats the hell out of the system. In the other side, the 15 min until you abandon an MSP because the unability to success is horrible as well. Basically, why MC and MSP in the same bracket? Why it's 15 min, when most content are done in that amount of time?

    There's a big difference between helping and "being forced to be a carry-bot for people that basically exploit or downright ignorant"

    Edit: I actually want to specifically note out the State of the game talk, where the devs "want to hear the Xbox audience's opinion about the RQ before tweaking it", which basically means that 1, We are forced being in that state way longer than we should. 2, They are forced being in that state way longer than they should.

    Sadly, I think the tone of those 2 spoiler comments are part of the issue as well. There are much more polite ways to complain about the issue at hand without insulting the developers intelligence. Am I unhappy with some of the changes they have made over the years? Certainly. Do I insult them to express my opinion on the things I am unhappy about? I try like hell not to. Gamers do tend to be passionate about the games they play, and there is nothing wrong with that, but you do need to think before you post something. If it's not something you would tell a perfect stranger to their face, you probably need to rethink your wording a bit.
    No one mentioned anything about the developer's intelligence, just the design of an actual content. This is two separate thing. Highly intelligent and talented persons can make mistakes too, and my comment was (in my opinion) backed by valid reasons.

    "The content makes those who play it feel horrible in certain cases."

    But if you can point out where I actually spoke about those unknown persons who made VT or the RQ in a negative manner, I will change my manner about them.
  • pitshadepitshade Posts: 3,347Member Arc User
    While I don't disagree with the assessment of VT now, it should be noted that it was intended to be endgame content. It was the Mod 6 era Devs who chose to reusue it as am entry level dungeon. Additionally, at the time of its design, players could not outgear it enough to simply bull their way through, ignoring lightning and wraiths and caskets.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • asterotgasterotg Posts: 1,679Member Arc User
    edited March 8
    TBH, I ran out of 'polite' a few weeks go. While I prefer, to argue with other ppl, there is no arguing with some of our fellow players.

    Most of the times I did run RED (I stopped doing them) I had one or two abusers in my que group. Keep in mind, that I mostly did duo ques.

    What did it for me was an ETOS run with a HR, AFK from the beginning until we waited at the boss room. We were not able to kick him for 15 minutes. After clearing the dungeon more or less in a duo run with my friend in 7 minutes, we had to wait 8 minutes, until we were allowed to kick him. Now, here is the kicker. He did begin to move after ca. 10 minutes and complained in colorful langue about me wanting to kick him, just bc he contributed nothing and made us wait for him.

    About the time we were able to start a vote kick, he arrived at the campfire. I started a vote kick and it was denied. I stepped out of the circle and asked, who and why he/she voted against this. While a sting of insults rained down on me from the HR another player said, that he voted against the vote kick. As I asked for a reason, he said, that I should not be an HAMSTER and start the boss fight.

    To be blunt, not one of this idiots would be able clear a T2 dungeon without significant better geared players carrying them. I dont want them to thank me, but having to waste more time waiting for abusers, then playing the game and getting verbally assaulted is more, then enough for me, to give a big HAMSTER you to RED and running with random players.
    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
  • wylonuswylonus Posts: 1,804Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    pickles? i know only character who loves pickles, it is Captain Steiner from FF9.
  • isaintify1isaintify1 Posts: 405Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    lols
  • c1k4ml3kc3c1k4ml3kc3 Posts: 884Member Arc User
    edited March 10
    People usually take a very antagonistic approach to the developers and act like children who lose their favorite toy when things don't go their way.
    I feel like people are very afraid of any changes that Cryptic makes because, let's face it, Cryptic did some terrible choices in the past (MOD6, punish CWs for the faulty of Lostmauth set, punish PvE players for the sake of PvP elitists who spent thousands of dollars etc just to name a few), and whenever the new changes arise something's bound to be broken either internally or externally in terms of the gameplay. And this is why people tend to have less patience, tend to be far more cynical and argue with others over some simplistic ideas. Some people maybe grew tired of seeing the same repeated scene on the forums and ventures into some sarcastic yet comedic outlet becoming a forum troll making jokes about things which he/she superficially approves for the same of likes on the forum, but in fact despises.

    it usually comes with people's inability to cope with both changes and the inability to realize what's a fact and what's a conjecture, and in that mix you may also place people who go out of their way to actually help and people who don't help at all and choose to remain silent because they just like to go their way watching their own business without taking any stance which, in some cases, turns out to be a stupid decision since sometimes a stand must be made when something's extremely negative and may affect the general gameplay.

    I find that people are having problems with very minor changes that affects their class, yet they were laughing their HAMSTER off when CWs faced even worse problems in MOD5 to MOD6 transition. It is something I'll never understand.

    Also, this type of a game collects various casual players who barely played anything worthwhile in their life in general as well as players who like to approach with the pinch of elitism in everything they do, so there's bound to be both kindness and extreme rudeness.

    Just yesterday in the alliance chat someone asked someone else not to swear because there're children of age 12, and others were messing all the time in the alliance chat with puns and whatnot. You may say - that's what you get, but then again they did apologize and portrayed a certain amount of civility regardless. Sometimes people just have a bad day or like to think of themselves as better than others who have less.

    It's a MMO, you're bound to find many things, all sorts, but to be nice to eachother is something that's probably asking a bit too much in the general sense especially for a multiplayer video-game. And, yes, it has to do with aging, I also feel the same, but I can't force people to "be nice", although I don't have to hang around people who insult or refuse to be nice for the sake of inflicting discomfort for others nor around the people who have a certain gameplay in style for a specific role to which I'd have to adjust and go out of my comfort zone for the sake of proving something.

    Again, it's a video-game, and everyone's entitled to play it as they see fit. Someone swears? Who cares? Someone thinks they're the best? Who cares? Someone thinks they know everything? Who cares?

    Forum can be a tricky place because people generally try to outsmart eachother directly attacking people's personality rather than counter-arguing on the topic involved. Many people feel extremely uncomfortable with any discussion, which is one of the main points of the forum itself. If people do not have guts for it, maybe forums aren't the place for them in general.
    Post edited by c1k4ml3kc3 on
    True Neutral
  • preechr#2215 preechr Posts: 488Member Arc User
    lassor said:

    as a player in the Cryptic world, it is very difficult to understand just where old devs end and new devs begin

    Who are these new devs you speak of? Only grizzled vets around here ;)

    May you all be blessed with extra kindness and pickles.

    Welcome to the forums!

    Always good to have new grizzled vet
  • dadtheron#2170 dadtheron Posts: 1Member Arc User
    As a new player ,I would like to point out.... there are no clearly defined rules so far as i have been able to determine. I try to be considerate but can not always play a dungeon as fast as others. first of all my bandwidth is not large so uploading content takes a while, second of all i am new to many of the dungeons and dont know where to go and finally to be honest i am not always properly equipped to battle in said dungeon. Therefore a simple request if i may, be patient with your fellow players in the game. they may be trying thier best. help them if you can, if you know a dungeon/ quest well offer advise to better help others instead of ranting at them. thank you.
  • greywyndgreywynd Posts: 2,570Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    As a new player ,I would like to point out.... there are no clearly defined rules so far as i have been able to determine. I try to be considerate but can not always play a dungeon as fast as others. first of all my bandwidth is not large so uploading content takes a while, second of all i am new to many of the dungeons and dont know where to go and finally to be honest i am not always properly equipped to battle in said dungeon. Therefore a simple request if i may, be patient with your fellow players in the game. they may be trying thier best. help them if you can, if you know a dungeon/ quest well offer advise to better help others instead of ranting at them. thank you.

    On the launcher there is an "Options" tag at the top; Turn off your patch on demand. That will stop you from having to patch while playing. Downside is that it will essentially re-download the game.
    Who watches the watchmen?

    With your shield or on it.
  • trevor#8542 trevor Posts: 119Member Arc User

    lassor said:

    as a player in the Cryptic world, it is very difficult to understand just where old devs end and new devs begin

    Who are these new devs you speak of? Only grizzled vets around here ;)

    May you all be blessed with extra kindness and pickles.

    Welcome to the forums!

    Always good to have new grizzled vet
    Its funny that your started this whole thing about being kind to one another and yet with that statement you are trying to provoke him by still calling him new at his job. I would start taking your own advice.
  • kreatyvekreatyve Posts: 9,110Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Community Moderator
    edited March 11

    lassor said:

    as a player in the Cryptic world, it is very difficult to understand just where old devs end and new devs begin

    Who are these new devs you speak of? Only grizzled vets around here ;)

    May you all be blessed with extra kindness and pickles.

    Welcome to the forums!

    Always good to have new grizzled vet
    Its funny that your started this whole thing about being kind to one another and yet with that statement you are trying to provoke him by still calling him new at his job. I would start taking your own advice.
    The forum account is brand new.... that dev is brand new (at least to Cryptic or at least their position at Cryptic). Nothing wrong with preechr's comment.
    My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I mainly play on Xbox
    Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official.
    Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
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  • lardesonlardeson Posts: 56Member Arc User
    Not trying to be impolite but when u have a forum that has a "disagree", "agree", "like", and allows multi accounts, you are motivating discremination IMO, i understand the devs changes and having to carry on from where the old devs left but you also have to understand a bunch of players get literally ignored by the devs. When can be polite till a certain point and then you loose it. When i start seeing a real class balance and not just throwing new dungeons, mods, and features here and there or rinse, repeat, i may consider my approach. There are certain things in the game that make absolutely no sense, but when u post suggestions and get 0 replies from the forum admins/mods, its no encouraging. i personally appreciate respect but again respect is something u earn, not a given, Maybe its just me, but what i have with the is, sometimes, they pretend to listen and with the updates u actually realise u've been wasting ur time. One thing is to make a mistake but if u make the same mistake over and over, its only normal to get a part of the community pissed, especially if they make changes without any reasons behind it. I've seen alot of good suggestions on the forums that has been pushed aside to the corner. But well, thats just me, Class balance is a thing they need to get serious with.
    Lardeson CW not Mage. Where's my fireball and my thunderbolt?
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