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The Current State of NW PvP
macjae
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,415 Arc User
With apologies for the pretentious title, since there's a dev stream about "the State of the Game" going up, I thought it might be useful to make a post trying to take a holistic view on the things that have gotten better and the things that still ail NW PvP. I am hoping that at least some of the concerns here will be addressed in the stream (and if they aren't, it'd be nice to see some developer attention to the overall state of PvP here on the forums). Most of all, the state of PvP can be summarized as there being too few people, with too large a difference among those that are there.
The Module 12 PvP Changes
Overall, these changes were a huge step in the right direction, but they also have a few warts. The removal of Tenacity is working out well -- it's much easier to cross over from PvE, and it slightly reduced the overall gear gap between the top and bottom ends. (Other economic changes have helped here as well, but the differential remains too big when you frequently have 16ks against 4ks in many matches, though this is also a symptom of a low population.) There remain some wonky issues with how Armor Penetration works between PvE and PvP. The difference in scaling means that many sources of DR bonuses scale better than sources of bonuses to resistance ignored.
The reduced healing capacity definitely helped with overall game quality -- a lot of characters die much more easily now, which is a huge plus. On the other hand, there are apparently still some sources that aren't subject to healing reduction (reportedly the Golden Lion's equip bonus at least). It also means that the contributions of outside sources of healing, such as from DCs and OPs is worth more, relatively speaking.
The changes to control mechanics are more of a mixed bag, but they turned out much better than they appeared during the initial testing before this Module. They are mostly good; they allow some sources of control to potentially feel more meaningful now than before with the longer duration at the start. On the other hand, some sources of control also still have an excessively long duration without providing more than one stack of resistance. Some of the powers that often benefit too much from the new system include the TR's Smoke Bomb, the OP's Burning Light, and the Trapper's roots. There are a lot of chains where you can still be CCed helplessly to death, involving some of those in particular. And while Sandy's Pants look like they were mostly fixed, there remain a couple of additional universal broken CC sources: The Impenetrable Jungle boon (this is particularly devastating on GWFs and to a lesser extent GFs) and the Thunderhead enchantment (which can also potentially provide oodles of damage in some cases, due to a lack of ICD). Most of the problematic things should be adjusted on an individual basis rather than to try and take an overarching systemic approach (because that would definitely lead to some currently well-function CC abilities becoming too weak).
Matchmaking has overall improved by a lot. Most games in the solo queue are playable and potentially winnable by either side. However, it remains a perennial source of frustration that there's a huge gap among players in terms of experience in each match, which helps cause a more toxic environment than necessary.
Next, there are some things lacking in PvP. They shouldn't be too much of a hassle to address, and they are largely connected in various ways.
The Lack of Population
There aren't a lot of players currently active in PvP compared to PvE. There are a lot of reasons for that, but the lack of a sufficient player base also leads to or exacerbates other issues. In particular, matchmaking suffers for it, it means the gear gap issues are likely bigger than they would be with a larger number of active PvP players, and is probably also reinforcing that -> fewer players means bigger gear and skill gaps, which makes worse matches and fewer players.
One issue that is noteworthy and should be looked at is how vote-kicking works in PvP. Being kicked for having low gear or being inexperienced is directly detrimental to the PvP experience and likely to make people not try again. On the other hand, the delay in access to kicking also allows individual players to hold their team hostage or to spoil a match for their team. The frequency with which one can attempt to issue vote-kicks also helps protect toxic players.
The Lack of Rewards
PvP is, simply put, unrewarding. There have been other posts about this. Again, this has some mixed aspects. In the past, AD rewards in PvP would attract bots and toxic players that would simply join to score enough points to get their daily AD. Removing this was a good thing. However, the remaining rewards simply aren't outstanding enough to make it attractive to play PvP in such a gear-focused game, and the rewards are also insular, in that they largely focus on helping you get better at PvP. This creates a sort of crossover barrier for PvP rewards to be useful in PvE, which makes it less attractive to crossover for other reasons than enjoying PvP. Since it requires a lot of gear to be competitive, and there are more rewarding activities in the game than PvP, this also creates a sort of lockout effect; players that might otherwise have more fun in PvP feel more compelled to go where the AD is. Simply put, if PvP is to attract more players, it needs better rewards. Reinstating the NCL (which ran for one preseason and then was never heard from again) with appropriately updated rewards would be one way to go. Adding some PvP weekly quest would help. Giving out RP stones rather than the silly green and blue gear you currently get for winning would help.
The PvP campaign, as a form of reward for PvP, has long since become impossible to complete since 2/3s of the content required to complete it is basically dead. The rewards are also completely outdated, mostly being un-updated abandonfare.
The Lack of (Playable) Content
Domination PvP has had two maps since the start of Neverwinter. Apparently, there was at least one more map that was more or less finished but never released. Adding some more maps would really be nice (and presumably wouldn't be too resource-intensive; at worst, reusing some existing maps like in so many other parts of the game shouldn't be too hard). There are three other forms of PvP, however, which are all but dead. Stronghold Siege is currently basically being exploited for the weekly quest through the private queue. That quest has nice rewards, but there's otherwise no incentive to play Stronghold Siege for any other reason, and it's probably not quite nice enough to warrant putting together a "normal" game of Stronghold Siege for it. The PvP gear you get from Stronghold Siege is highly outdated (and again, insular content). Gauntlgrym is in an even worse position in this regard; no additional rewards available. Icewind Dale open PvP has been more or less broken since the beginning by the presence of companion bonuses (and also another reason why people probably won't stomach regular Stronghold Siege, given that the companion bonuses were added in there later on against nearly all the player feedback that was given). Most of all, this form of "PvP" has largely been the playing ground of invisible clowns that like to run in and gank someone, and if they fail to do so, use all their nice little getaway tools to never get caught. Basically, it's all about griefing, not fighting. Whenever actual Black Ice Domination did or does happen, it almost always gets dominated by one side or the other through sheer numbers or gear.
The Lack of Premades
This may appear contentious, as the introduction of the permanent solo queue solved the long-standing issue of matching premades against pugs, but at the same time, it also effectively means that premade PvP is pretty much dead. There's the private queue, but setting up fair and balanced matches there take a lot of time and energy in getting people together and getting balanced teams. Simply put, there should be some added incentives for running premades queuing into the regular (non-solo) domination queue.
One key aspect here also involves the domination rules. Back in the day, Neverwinter used a different set of domination rules that allowed for contesting a node so it wouldn't generate points. That made matches significantly longer, but it was also better suited for competitive play, as the longer matches meant that you would get more rotations and variety in gameplay. The current rules, meanwhile, are much better for quick pug play, which is the norm for the majority of players in any case. However, in my personal opinion, allowing us to play by those rules in private queues if we want would make for some nice potential variety, as would adding other settings and modes to private queues, that don't need to be available for full public queues. Another option that really should be available in private queues at the very least is to equalize all gear and boons in some way; either giving everyone similar default stats, disabling all gear and boons, or some other variation. That would allow people to play with their friends without worrying about discrepancies in character strength.
The Module 12 PvP Changes
Overall, these changes were a huge step in the right direction, but they also have a few warts. The removal of Tenacity is working out well -- it's much easier to cross over from PvE, and it slightly reduced the overall gear gap between the top and bottom ends. (Other economic changes have helped here as well, but the differential remains too big when you frequently have 16ks against 4ks in many matches, though this is also a symptom of a low population.) There remain some wonky issues with how Armor Penetration works between PvE and PvP. The difference in scaling means that many sources of DR bonuses scale better than sources of bonuses to resistance ignored.
The reduced healing capacity definitely helped with overall game quality -- a lot of characters die much more easily now, which is a huge plus. On the other hand, there are apparently still some sources that aren't subject to healing reduction (reportedly the Golden Lion's equip bonus at least). It also means that the contributions of outside sources of healing, such as from DCs and OPs is worth more, relatively speaking.
The changes to control mechanics are more of a mixed bag, but they turned out much better than they appeared during the initial testing before this Module. They are mostly good; they allow some sources of control to potentially feel more meaningful now than before with the longer duration at the start. On the other hand, some sources of control also still have an excessively long duration without providing more than one stack of resistance. Some of the powers that often benefit too much from the new system include the TR's Smoke Bomb, the OP's Burning Light, and the Trapper's roots. There are a lot of chains where you can still be CCed helplessly to death, involving some of those in particular. And while Sandy's Pants look like they were mostly fixed, there remain a couple of additional universal broken CC sources: The Impenetrable Jungle boon (this is particularly devastating on GWFs and to a lesser extent GFs) and the Thunderhead enchantment (which can also potentially provide oodles of damage in some cases, due to a lack of ICD). Most of the problematic things should be adjusted on an individual basis rather than to try and take an overarching systemic approach (because that would definitely lead to some currently well-function CC abilities becoming too weak).
Matchmaking has overall improved by a lot. Most games in the solo queue are playable and potentially winnable by either side. However, it remains a perennial source of frustration that there's a huge gap among players in terms of experience in each match, which helps cause a more toxic environment than necessary.
Next, there are some things lacking in PvP. They shouldn't be too much of a hassle to address, and they are largely connected in various ways.
The Lack of Population
There aren't a lot of players currently active in PvP compared to PvE. There are a lot of reasons for that, but the lack of a sufficient player base also leads to or exacerbates other issues. In particular, matchmaking suffers for it, it means the gear gap issues are likely bigger than they would be with a larger number of active PvP players, and is probably also reinforcing that -> fewer players means bigger gear and skill gaps, which makes worse matches and fewer players.
One issue that is noteworthy and should be looked at is how vote-kicking works in PvP. Being kicked for having low gear or being inexperienced is directly detrimental to the PvP experience and likely to make people not try again. On the other hand, the delay in access to kicking also allows individual players to hold their team hostage or to spoil a match for their team. The frequency with which one can attempt to issue vote-kicks also helps protect toxic players.
The Lack of Rewards
PvP is, simply put, unrewarding. There have been other posts about this. Again, this has some mixed aspects. In the past, AD rewards in PvP would attract bots and toxic players that would simply join to score enough points to get their daily AD. Removing this was a good thing. However, the remaining rewards simply aren't outstanding enough to make it attractive to play PvP in such a gear-focused game, and the rewards are also insular, in that they largely focus on helping you get better at PvP. This creates a sort of crossover barrier for PvP rewards to be useful in PvE, which makes it less attractive to crossover for other reasons than enjoying PvP. Since it requires a lot of gear to be competitive, and there are more rewarding activities in the game than PvP, this also creates a sort of lockout effect; players that might otherwise have more fun in PvP feel more compelled to go where the AD is. Simply put, if PvP is to attract more players, it needs better rewards. Reinstating the NCL (which ran for one preseason and then was never heard from again) with appropriately updated rewards would be one way to go. Adding some PvP weekly quest would help. Giving out RP stones rather than the silly green and blue gear you currently get for winning would help.
The PvP campaign, as a form of reward for PvP, has long since become impossible to complete since 2/3s of the content required to complete it is basically dead. The rewards are also completely outdated, mostly being un-updated abandonfare.
The Lack of (Playable) Content
Domination PvP has had two maps since the start of Neverwinter. Apparently, there was at least one more map that was more or less finished but never released. Adding some more maps would really be nice (and presumably wouldn't be too resource-intensive; at worst, reusing some existing maps like in so many other parts of the game shouldn't be too hard). There are three other forms of PvP, however, which are all but dead. Stronghold Siege is currently basically being exploited for the weekly quest through the private queue. That quest has nice rewards, but there's otherwise no incentive to play Stronghold Siege for any other reason, and it's probably not quite nice enough to warrant putting together a "normal" game of Stronghold Siege for it. The PvP gear you get from Stronghold Siege is highly outdated (and again, insular content). Gauntlgrym is in an even worse position in this regard; no additional rewards available. Icewind Dale open PvP has been more or less broken since the beginning by the presence of companion bonuses (and also another reason why people probably won't stomach regular Stronghold Siege, given that the companion bonuses were added in there later on against nearly all the player feedback that was given). Most of all, this form of "PvP" has largely been the playing ground of invisible clowns that like to run in and gank someone, and if they fail to do so, use all their nice little getaway tools to never get caught. Basically, it's all about griefing, not fighting. Whenever actual Black Ice Domination did or does happen, it almost always gets dominated by one side or the other through sheer numbers or gear.
The Lack of Premades
This may appear contentious, as the introduction of the permanent solo queue solved the long-standing issue of matching premades against pugs, but at the same time, it also effectively means that premade PvP is pretty much dead. There's the private queue, but setting up fair and balanced matches there take a lot of time and energy in getting people together and getting balanced teams. Simply put, there should be some added incentives for running premades queuing into the regular (non-solo) domination queue.
One key aspect here also involves the domination rules. Back in the day, Neverwinter used a different set of domination rules that allowed for contesting a node so it wouldn't generate points. That made matches significantly longer, but it was also better suited for competitive play, as the longer matches meant that you would get more rotations and variety in gameplay. The current rules, meanwhile, are much better for quick pug play, which is the norm for the majority of players in any case. However, in my personal opinion, allowing us to play by those rules in private queues if we want would make for some nice potential variety, as would adding other settings and modes to private queues, that don't need to be available for full public queues. Another option that really should be available in private queues at the very least is to equalize all gear and boons in some way; either giving everyone similar default stats, disabling all gear and boons, or some other variation. That would allow people to play with their friends without worrying about discrepancies in character strength.
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Comments
the new pvp dev is the one that worked on the warlock changes according to the stream
hopefully with the new pvp with the devs event announced this will help further stimulate discussion
I'd add curse rings to the list of problems with control. They should be nerfed into uselessness or just written out of the game. Fortunately they aren't in wide use.
Otherwise I agree with most of the post wholeheartedly.
The higher you get on the leaderboard the more the other team gets stacked against your team. While the Q system does not take IL into consideration, it's easy to understand that the higher your IL, the MUCH more likely you are to advance pages on the leaderboard. Next thing you know, you're up against a full team of 15K OP classes vs. your team of 6-7K IL pugs of classes that are currently inferior due to balancing issues.
When competition (such as Premade teams) disappears from the game, it means that game does not have a healthy PVP environment. Solo Q is more akin to FFA than it is to team driven competition.
My concern with the original post is in regard to armor pen as what we found in extensive testing is that when armor pen becomes more effective, classes such as GF/TR become stronger (deflect is not affected by armor pen, neither is GF shield), and also CW because the shield exists on a different layer of DR, just like GF shield. When combined with any form of self heals (i.e. lifesteal, lion, capstone) CW becomes very, very strong.
When armor pen became more effective classes like GWF, Pally, DC suffered. You could argue that Pally and DC are too tanky and this is needed, however the counter argument is staying alive and trying to help teammates do that as well is the primary addition that those classes add to their group. People who say pally is OP are typically killing themselves on Pallies binding oaths, not realizing the class mechanics of the OP. However, even if you feel this is needed against Pally and DC... GWF suffers the hardest in this scenario. Already one of the lowest on the PVP totem pole due to it's distinct lack of CC, it becomes the lowest.
I do agree with the vast majority of the other issues @macjae stated. However, I still remain of the persuasion that vanilla PVP is what is necessary to restore both balance and enjoyment for all classes. That and the forcing of rainbow compositions... no 2 of any class. The reason for the latter is... no matter how hard devs (in any game) try, there will always be one class or more that shines in a particular area. Forcing the inability to stack that class allows all classes to retain usefulness. This way you don't end up fighting 2 TR, 2 GF comps (OP this mod and likely next, but those classes could be changed at any time forcing a different OP class or "Meta" comp). Then you learn to use all the different classes mechanics to your teams benefit rather than looking at the teams class make up and throwing your hands up before the match even starts.
I would also like to double down on what @macjae stated about CC. Dazes and interrupts should both add stacks of CC resist. The biggest problem that people complained about in PVP were these: 1) Oppressor CW with infinite repel that could throw you clear accross a map. 2) Courage breaker/Smokebomb TR who could perma root you in place and leave you there while they go cap and bring back an entourage to kill you. 3) GF CC one rotation of death. ITF for buff and speed, Bull charge, Daily, Griffons wrath x3 = dead. Since you get proned during both the bull charge and the daily, there is little to no chance to get out of this most lethal of combos. 4) Trapper HR. Once dazed and rooted you stare at your opponent helplessly until you die of ticks or the HR's teammates show up.
Of these CC areas that were supposed to be addressed by the CC resist changes that occurred it only fixed the first, it nerfed the second a bit in that CB lasts half the time but.. who cares when dazing strike + SB means you will die quickly to the incoming Shadow of demise procc even if you dodged the initial damage. GF rotation remains untouched because the stacks of CC resist come too late. They can't help you when you're dead. Combine these things with sandy's pants, the chult boon, and ring of the curse bringer or toss on some drains and ring of ambush and PVP is just comical.
What I, and others have continuously said is... please get rid of dumb proccs of CC and class mechanic negations. Stupid rings that enable stealth or reveal it, drains that remove your ability to do dailies or use stamina, boons and gear that cause random damage when being hit or hitting someone. These are completely and utterly skilless and random and have no place in a competitive environment. If you're going to pit fresh level 70 players with no boons against level 70 players with all the boons it would be the equivalent of level 190 players fighting level 70 players in any other game. If you count each campaign boon completion as an additional 10 levels. This is so painfully obvious why PVP is terribad. Not only class imbalance and IL imbalance but essentially level imbalance. When PVP was vibrant it was because there were only 60 levels with no boons. This was the most healthy PVP environment we ever had. As more boons, as well as IL, became available PVP became more and more unbalanced and less fun for pug groups and PVP guilds who focused on grinding content to be competitive with other PVP groups dominated matches if the other team was not Premade until the point that it was a complete stomp unless it was PM vs PM.
I could go on and on about the history of how we got to where we are. The issue is, is there anyone in the game management/development who is interested in understanding why PVP is in the current lowly state that it is in or will we continue to try and force things that don't work? Most PVP players understand it, most could explain how to get back to a healthy PVP community. I simply wonder if we would be listened to about these matters?
I think in doing so, they'd get a feel for what it's like being newish and fighting in unbalanced IL matches, as well as being BIS but not experienced in competitive PVP (PVEers gettig their feet wet for example). What they'll find I think is that undergeared/boonless toons get one shotted while inexperienced BISers get one rotated when they make any number of mistakes. Hopefully this would be an eye opener so both developers/management team and playerbase can get on the same page as to why the PVP community has become nigh non existent.
Worth mention is also that domination map is very limited to how you play NW in pvp.
Different kind of maps allows for different classes to be optimal.
In GG I find CW SW better then in domination, range and movement is very limited in a map like NW domination.
If there was more maps with different ways of winning like capture the flagg larger maps with different goals different terrains etc where pure killing did not matter as much people with lower IL would also manage better.
This one sided map has several other dissavantage such as being boring after x-matches, people that do not like that kind of pvp quit or dont even start.
The main issues are addressed but I do think that if you want to make pvp a part of this game more way of pvp maps are needed.(or quite better rewards for it in maps like GG that actually would make people want to go there).
So lets see for a delzoun:
1. phase always guys yelling in zone what nibs we all be cause we dont know how to do it...
2. phase doin some running for a min...gettin roflstomped and if unlucky spawn killed by the "pro"s
3. phase...ninja looters...such a big problem in pve and pvp that cryptic decided to give loot for everyone
Maybe I´m exaggerate a bit but I think u get the picture...not as glorious as stated in some posts
If u ask me the way the "pro"s acted in the past have pretty much to do with the current state of pvp
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/comment/13015988
they need first to improve the other maps.
domination need Q like dungeons. (healer, tank, GS etc.)
different rewards for maps
why is pvp dead..
"Because everyone spreads PvP hate, which leads to people not bothering, which leads to nobody except the truly dedicated being any good at it, which leads to those dedicated players stomping the brave souls that dare attempt to try it, which leads to them spreading more PvP hate."
> this was said about another game and the quote matches the state pvp of this one scarily so
> why is pvp dead..
> "Because everyone spreads PvP hate, which leads to people not bothering, which leads to nobody except the truly dedicated being any good at it, which leads to those dedicated players stomping the brave souls that dare attempt to try it, which leads to them spreading more PvP hate."
You forgot one thing.. the mediocre players also start pug stomping, because those are the only players they can kill
I tried regular domination but sometimes it took 10-15 mins to get in. Premades maybe play against each other setting up private Queues. Or try sync entrying. idk
And I saw familiar faces in the Leaderboard who didn't stop raising noobkill counter.