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Class Rework Problems
ibz4ez
Member Posts: 117 Arc User
Greetings fellow adventurers!
I wanted to take the time to address any and all class rework proposals as a general concept before the developers or anyone else makes class changes that are just recreating the mistakes of the past.
First things first:
Buffs/Power scaling.
Should be for every single power in the game on every class. I know you're going to think me mad considering all the Power that DCs and OPs get when they power share, but you have to consider that DCs and OPs DPS and Buff wise are exactly the same in strength at 10k gearscore as they are 17k gearscore (excluding said power share for now as it doesn't effect the DC or OP in solo content.) Which is starting to become a big issue in PVP seeing as other classes gain more power and become stronger, OPs and DCs stay the same which is silly. It's one thing to add more end-game enchants and gear, but quite another to make it necessary in gearscore to play the content - but have no impact to the classes. As for classes that are suffering with their own base level DPS at the moment, like HR, SW and TR. Well the improvement is a given.
Secondly:
Piercing damage is not a solution ever. If a class is having issue bringing out the guns in PvP or PvE, buff the base damage first - always! Piercing damage is part of the problem with DCs and OPs on PvP as well as fixed damage abilities that don't scale, they now have to face useless defence as well. And for classes that have it, like TR and HR. But specifically HR as soon as core class features like Trapper Stun loop is taken away from PvP then issues arise yet again with damage because WHOOPS somebody forgot to buff the base power instead of creating loopholes like piercing damage (Hahaha unlucky combat subclass that suffers from both stun nerf and healing nerf). TR-wise... well. What can you say? DPS for TRs in PvE is at an all-time low sitting right down their with SW. PvP? Everything is based on spamming dailies relying on - oh what's that? Piercing damage in stealth? - Saboteur class. Or if not that there's the Shadow Of Demise bug where the TR does negligible amounts of damage to another player using a daily and smoke bomb and something that triggers shadow of demise, 6 seconds later.... oh is that 80-170k HP missing? The feat literally says it deals 50% of the damage done over the last 6 seconds. So how can it deal more damage that was done without being broken as HAMSTER? Take off the piercing damage, buff the base value. Is that so hard?
Lastly:
Nerfing classes. I think, as someone who has played every single class both on Preview and Live up to 70, that there should never be a reason to Nerf a class. Fixing bugs - yes! Nerfing? - No. Why you might ask? Well let's just think back to every single class-nerf that has happened in the past. Good I'm glad you looked. Now look where we are now. GWF is the only suitable DPS class that can complete the latest dungeon. DCs and OPs and MoF CWs as buffers are more valuable than actual DPS classes in TONG. TR PvP has turned into who can proc piercing damage the most. HRs are left with sniping everyone from the skies in PvP because both Trapper and Combat was nerfed making them impossible classes to hold a node with - holding nodes which is the only way to win in PvP! SW are all-round destroyed being the lowest DPS class - even below Buffer classes and Tanks.
Point is it is clear from where we are now with classes and how we got here that methods from the past are simply unhelpful at best, and potentially destructive at worst.
Conclusion:
Developers need to hold a list of core values in which to assess how they go about making the classes balanced. A guidline so to speak.
We as a community need to provide a guidline to the developers that consists of:
- Classes that don't need any attention
- Individual Powers and Buffs that don't need any attention
- Under-powered abilities
- Over-powered abilities
- Abilities that do not scale with damage and/or buffs
- Abilities that rely on piercing damage
- Abilities that are useless in light of X,Y or Z nerf
- Broken abilities that need fixing
I also believe that, as a general rule of thumb, developers should be aware of how each change effects the class' BUILDS above all else so that no changes are ever made that make a build overpowered or changes that make a build under-powered. Even if the change is to address an ability based on it over-performing or nonperforming as a whole.
These changes, I believe, should help clear up any misconceptions surrounding what should be done with the SW class and other class changes in the future.
p.s. Preview Server has been down since 1200hours UTC 17/12/2017 and is still down now 1040hours UTC 18/12/2017. Unless you guys are having a serious sesh with MOD13 preview, can someone remind whoever got drunk and turned off the server by accident that they need to turn it on again? - Thanks.
I wanted to take the time to address any and all class rework proposals as a general concept before the developers or anyone else makes class changes that are just recreating the mistakes of the past.
First things first:
Buffs/Power scaling.
Should be for every single power in the game on every class. I know you're going to think me mad considering all the Power that DCs and OPs get when they power share, but you have to consider that DCs and OPs DPS and Buff wise are exactly the same in strength at 10k gearscore as they are 17k gearscore (excluding said power share for now as it doesn't effect the DC or OP in solo content.) Which is starting to become a big issue in PVP seeing as other classes gain more power and become stronger, OPs and DCs stay the same which is silly. It's one thing to add more end-game enchants and gear, but quite another to make it necessary in gearscore to play the content - but have no impact to the classes. As for classes that are suffering with their own base level DPS at the moment, like HR, SW and TR. Well the improvement is a given.
Secondly:
Piercing damage is not a solution ever. If a class is having issue bringing out the guns in PvP or PvE, buff the base damage first - always! Piercing damage is part of the problem with DCs and OPs on PvP as well as fixed damage abilities that don't scale, they now have to face useless defence as well. And for classes that have it, like TR and HR. But specifically HR as soon as core class features like Trapper Stun loop is taken away from PvP then issues arise yet again with damage because WHOOPS somebody forgot to buff the base power instead of creating loopholes like piercing damage (Hahaha unlucky combat subclass that suffers from both stun nerf and healing nerf). TR-wise... well. What can you say? DPS for TRs in PvE is at an all-time low sitting right down their with SW. PvP? Everything is based on spamming dailies relying on - oh what's that? Piercing damage in stealth? - Saboteur class. Or if not that there's the Shadow Of Demise bug where the TR does negligible amounts of damage to another player using a daily and smoke bomb and something that triggers shadow of demise, 6 seconds later.... oh is that 80-170k HP missing? The feat literally says it deals 50% of the damage done over the last 6 seconds. So how can it deal more damage that was done without being broken as HAMSTER? Take off the piercing damage, buff the base value. Is that so hard?
Lastly:
Nerfing classes. I think, as someone who has played every single class both on Preview and Live up to 70, that there should never be a reason to Nerf a class. Fixing bugs - yes! Nerfing? - No. Why you might ask? Well let's just think back to every single class-nerf that has happened in the past. Good I'm glad you looked. Now look where we are now. GWF is the only suitable DPS class that can complete the latest dungeon. DCs and OPs and MoF CWs as buffers are more valuable than actual DPS classes in TONG. TR PvP has turned into who can proc piercing damage the most. HRs are left with sniping everyone from the skies in PvP because both Trapper and Combat was nerfed making them impossible classes to hold a node with - holding nodes which is the only way to win in PvP! SW are all-round destroyed being the lowest DPS class - even below Buffer classes and Tanks.
Point is it is clear from where we are now with classes and how we got here that methods from the past are simply unhelpful at best, and potentially destructive at worst.
Conclusion:
Developers need to hold a list of core values in which to assess how they go about making the classes balanced. A guidline so to speak.
We as a community need to provide a guidline to the developers that consists of:
- Classes that don't need any attention
- Individual Powers and Buffs that don't need any attention
- Under-powered abilities
- Over-powered abilities
- Abilities that do not scale with damage and/or buffs
- Abilities that rely on piercing damage
- Abilities that are useless in light of X,Y or Z nerf
- Broken abilities that need fixing
I also believe that, as a general rule of thumb, developers should be aware of how each change effects the class' BUILDS above all else so that no changes are ever made that make a build overpowered or changes that make a build under-powered. Even if the change is to address an ability based on it over-performing or nonperforming as a whole.
These changes, I believe, should help clear up any misconceptions surrounding what should be done with the SW class and other class changes in the future.
p.s. Preview Server has been down since 1200hours UTC 17/12/2017 and is still down now 1040hours UTC 18/12/2017. Unless you guys are having a serious sesh with MOD13 preview, can someone remind whoever got drunk and turned off the server by accident that they need to turn it on again? - Thanks.
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Comments
1) Their buffs don't have to scale up to the late game. We all remember GF's ITF where it scaled - more DR you have, the higher the buff. And that was stupidly overpowered. 250% buff easily, and that's no bueno. Dunno where you got that HRs are underperforming, but let's move on.
2) Piercing damage works fine. It's literally just bonus damage. And it's unmitigated by (most) resistances, so it's good for both PvP and PvE. Buffing base damage only brings issues later down the line when you introduce additional buffs to weapon damage and higher level gear and so on.
3) I agree that nerfing classes is just bad at this point. SWs and TRs do need a rework (well, SWs need a general, all-around buff as well). But the thing I don't agree with is that GWFs are the only end-game ready class. I did tons of TonG runs where the CW or TR were the main DPS, and those were relatively decent runs (sub 30 mins).
I do agree that a lot of the classes need a rework (and NOT a buff or a nerf), those reworks take time, so we need those fixes one at a time. Otherwise we'll have another ITF, Bondings, Orcus set, Lostmauth set and so on. That was just not okay. All abilities work fine to an extent, it's the interactions between abilities, items and so on that need rework. And that's possibly the single hardest thing to balance.