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DC Class Review

darthtzarrdarthtzarr Posts: 1,000Member Arc User
edited December 2017 in The Temple
So, I have been playing Neverwinter on and off for about a year now :scream: and decided to do some extensive testing/research for the class I play--cleric. This led into learned the mechanics of most of the classes, since I had to work with other classes to really do anything useful. I was trying to find out what exactly cleric was capable of doing or not capable of doing, while also figuring out how this interacts with other classes. There are several issues with the cleric, as it turns out the game isn't perfect, so I ended up writing down any ideas I had for fixing these issues as well (not that any of my ideas would actually work). So finally, this is what i came up with:

--- Link to the DC Class Review ---

This document also includes things like AP gain, base damage, buff values, etc. It should contain all of the important stuff that isn't necessarily listed on the in-game tooltips.

Big thanks to everyone who helped with it! If you see any mistakes or anything that I missed, or just can't find a piece of information that you think should be included, please let me know. At this time I don't plan on updating it for awhile, even if later modules flip the meta on its head.

I probably don't plan on doing a document like this for any more classes, I barely have the resources to keep my cleric at a competent level, let alone other classes. I kinda want to see if this is even useful in the first place before jumping into a project of that size.

Signature [WIP] - tyvm John

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Comments

  • majorcharvenakmajorcharvenak Posts: 296Member Arc User
    Nice review @darthtzarr. Might be time to dust off my DO DC and bring her out of semi-retirement. Thanks for putting this together. :)
    ~Shia~

    House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
    Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
    Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
    Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
    Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
    Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator

    Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
    Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
    S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
    T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
    Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
  • illhoraillhora Posts: 119Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    really nice !

    just had a request from a guildy asking all about DC.
    I was thinking, damn where should i start...but now i know :)

    Thanks for the work and for sharing it, @darthtzarr !

    cheers
  • miyanaamiyanaa Posts: 72Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Awesome :)
    I can only imagine how much work you put into that.

    The thing that "bothers" me is that its for BiS players, cause I think that new players or people with not so good gear would actually slot BoH or Healer's Lore (those are rated as 1) for extra heals in most of dungeons where their team gets wiped.
    I agree that killing enemies faster with debuffs works better, but if team has reaaaaaally low dmg then those buffs wont really help as much xD

    Also you write "Some powers will be rated higher than expected simply because they are good in PVE or PVP", but your ratings are purely PvE, have nothing to do with PvP.
    Most of the skills you rated as 1 I would rate as 5 as I am a PvP player.


    PvP DC ~ Meep Neox
    YouTube
  • darthtzarrdarthtzarr Posts: 1,000Member Arc User
    edited December 2017
    miyanaa said:


    Also you write "Some powers will be rated higher than expected simply because they are good in PVE or PVP", but your ratings are purely PvE, have nothing to do with PvP.
    Most of the skills you rated as 1 I would rate as 5 as I am a PvP player.

    Which powers specifically would you rate higher?

    Signature [WIP] - tyvm John

  • slyef#6396 slyef Posts: 31Member Arc User
    edited December 2017
    Hey Darthz/Sylux !


    Thanks for your DC class review doc. It covers well the facets ofDC and should help many of us tweak our DC build/gameplay ! (* Gets triggered by the animation of e. FF when there's only 1 DC on the team*)

    There are a couple things I disagree on, and I'll try not to make an awkward post this time
    I feel we play different games (I do farm tong regularly on different toons, but I'm nowhere near BiS) .

    The first thing I have to disagree is the ranking of Exaltation vs Astral Shield (I was like, 1 for AS?!).

    I agree Astral Shield is not needed in some groups, and in that case I'd gladly use exaltation. But for squishier groups AS is very valuable, since one guy dying at the wrong moment can be fatal for the whole team (and let's face it dying is less fun). Ultimately it's about knowing the group balance.

    Unless your team is solid defense-wise/ you're at Orcus, I think using exalt (for 12% damage for one dude) is greedy.

    Also AS is great for pugging/ random q (since you got only 1 DC), and it allows to completely ignore some mechanics (AKA stay in red/behind the tank and don't give a ****, conveniant huh ?).


    The second thing is cast times and which divinity spell used (but that's a small detail)
    Normal/Empowered encounter cast times hardly matter (since the encounters are so good, and barring a few exceptions, they're pretty short anyway). However the only divine encounter that matters for a non-dps DC is Divine Glow.

    The goal here is to empty the divine gauge as quickly as possible to have good uptime on your other buffs, and some spells have short cast time in divinity. I don't like divine bts, I find it sluggish, so I use divine DG then spam divine ff/AS/exalt. I'd be curious to know the cast time for divinity spells if they're different


    Last, AA on top of what you already mentionned, offers a flat incoming damage reduction which, combined with other tools of mitigation, is really good in Pve. (My health is not even decreasing in some occurences)

    And a little question, where maybe @rjc9000 can help how does DR shred from tong work ? Does being over the cap help here ?

  • darthtzarrdarthtzarr Posts: 1,000Member Arc User
    edited December 2017


    The first thing I have to disagree is the ranking of Exaltation vs Astral Shield (I was like, 1 for AS?!).

    I agree Astral Shield is not needed in some groups, and in that case I'd gladly use exaltation. But for squishier groups AS is very valuable, since one guy dying at the wrong moment can be fatal for the whole team (and let's face it dying is less fun). Ultimately it's about knowing the group balance.

    Unless your team is solid defense-wise/ you're at Orcus, I think using exalt (for 12% damage for one dude) is greedy.

    Also AS is great for pugging/ random q (since you got only 1 DC), and it allows to completely ignore some mechanics (AKA stay in red/behind the tank and don't give a ****, conveniant huh ?).

    Okay, setting Astral Shield at 1, was probably a bit harsh. I am going to attribute it to still being salty about the empowered nerf. That being said, the reason I rate it so low, is because the DR required to cap is too easy to obtain from different (often cheaper) sources. You can slot an entire power to create a ring for your team to stand in, or you can cast your normal rotation with a specific mount bonus to provide similar benefit. The absolute maximum DR you will ever need in 12b is 110% iirc.

    From low to high geared groups, if you have the normal double DC comp, you should be able to maintain these buffs. From low to high geared, this should be your DR values.

    Defense Stat: 10%-40%
    Hallowed Ground: 35%
    Divine Glow: 17.5%
    Shepherd's Devotion: 10%-25%
    Blessing of Battle: 8%
    Have Faith: 5%
    = 85.5%-130.5%

    If you feel like someone is squishier than normal, you can cast Divine Exaltation on them to grant them +30% DR and then normal version for another 12% DR. It takes a lot more skill from the DC to use (or an in-game macro), but you will never have your allies walk out of your Exaltation and die like they do for Astral Shield. Back when Astral Shield mitigated flat damage, I would have rated it a lot higher (even rating it 5 for being overpowered in PVP), but at the moment, I cannot find a low enough group to warrant slotting it. Worst case scenario, I use divine exaltation on someone I think is too squishy.

    Also note that if you have a paladin in the group, they are giving the party an extra 40% 25% DR from circle of power, and they should have Shepherd's Devotion for an extra 10%-25% DR as well (this should leave the parties DR at around 120.5%-180.5%). At that point, you will never get any benefit from Astral Shield. Yes, this is more talking about end-game optimized groups, but at the same time, it is also very easy to just have everyone in the group use the "correct" powers and items to cap DR for "cheaper".




    The second thing is cast times and which divinity spell used (but that's a small detail)
    Normal/Empowered encounter cast times hardly matter (since the encounters are so good, and barring a few exceptions, they're pretty short anyway). However the only divine encounter that matters for a non-dps DC is Divine Glow.

    The goal here is to empty the divine gauge as quickly as possible to have good uptime on your other buffs, and some spells have short cast time in divinity. I don't like divine bts, I find it sluggish, so I use divine DG then spam divine ff/AS/exalt. I'd be curious to know the cast time for divinity spells if they're different

    You are very correct, it doesn't matter that much. But the point is to get your empowered stacks up as fast as possible, so you will almost always use the fastest power (or most useful power) in divinity mode. I use Divinity Divine Glow once to give the damage stack, and then cast BtS or FF (I only ever have one of them slotted) twice to get empowered up as fast as possible. As far as I know, both BtS and FF have the same cast time, and both of them can be cast faster than divine glow. You might cast Divine Glow after the double BtS/FF depending on when you expect your DPS to deal their damage, but other than that, the only reason to cast Divine Glow 3x, would be if you are having trouble hitting the DPS with it. Again, this is very minor and simply an optimization. It is always better to have your buffs up while your party is doing DPS, rather than getting them up late and having no benefit.



    Last, AA on top of what you already mentionned, offers a flat incoming damage reduction which, combined with other tools of mitigation, is really good in Pve. (My health is not even decreasing in some occurences)

    Okay, I should have known better. Someone already told me this during proofreading, and I forgot to add it in. It's a very valid point, and I will work on adding it because it is quite important.

    And a little question, where maybe @rjc9000 can help how does DR shred from tong work ? Does being over the cap help here ?

    If you are talking about debuffs, the formula is on the Russian forums, and there is a copy of it in the Desmos graphs in the weapon enchantment section of the review.

    If you are talking about Ras'Nsi armor debuff, then I think it is a multiplier on damage based on the number of stacks you have on. 16 stacks = 16x more damage. Although from what I have just heard, it might be -15% DR (which could make DR more useful during this one fight if you aren't greatly overcapped)
    Post edited by darthtzarr on

    Signature [WIP] - tyvm John

  • greyjay1greyjay1 Posts: 62Member Arc User
    I think he rated AS that low because you already have lots of dmg resi sources:
    HG: 35%
    Glow: 17.5%
    BoB: 8%
    Have Faith: 5%
    (Shepherd's Devotion: LOTS)
    That's already 65.5%, that means, there are only 29.5% left to hit the 95%-mark.
    Then there is Exa, it adds another 12% dmg resi buff on the main dps, usually the squishiest member.
    And if there is a prot OP with CoP, that would be another 25%.

    To the rotation:
    That's exactly the point, if you use Dbts and then combo Dbts into Dglow it will clear the last 2 stacks in one animation, you can tab during the animation and use the 3Ebts much faster this way.
    3x Dglow just takes forever.
  • darthtzarrdarthtzarr Posts: 1,000Member Arc User
    edited December 2017
    VM!

    EXALTATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    cleanse procs
    :trollface:
    Post edited by darthtzarr on

    Signature [WIP] - tyvm John

  • pitshadepitshade Posts: 3,131Member Arc User
    > @rjc9000 said:
    > It should be noted that under class synergies that GF greatly benefits from Cleanse to get rid of that nasty Survivor's Wrap debuff.
    >
    > On the contrary, us GFs actually like the Survivors Wraps DoT effect (that's the whole point of using the wraps).
    >
    > I cannot tell you the number of times @kacezet or @dungra34 have raged when a DC cleansed their wraps.

    I expected more awareness from you.

    I am disappoint. :trollface:
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • kacezetkacezet Posts: 193Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    rjc9000 said:

    I cannot tell you the number of times @kacezet or dungra34 have raged when a DC cleansed their wraps.

    Y U ALWAYS DO THIS TO ME @michela123
  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Posts: 786Member Arc User
    Wait wait, so cleanse actually removes the dot from Survivor's Wraps? Dang, I run mostly with friends only at this point and they all have cleanse ;_; So am I trying to get Survivor's Wraps just to get them cleansed? Lol.
  • pitshadepitshade Posts: 3,131Member Arc User
    From the Dev's POV, the damage is a negative effect, so it makes sense that Cleanse removes it. It is just that players always find a way to use things more creatively than what was expected of them.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • miyanaamiyanaa Posts: 72Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited December 2017

    miyanaa said:


    Also you write "Some powers will be rated higher than expected simply because they are good in PVE or PVP", but your ratings are purely PvE, have nothing to do with PvP.
    Most of the skills you rated as 1 I would rate as 5 as I am a PvP player.

    Which powers specifically would you rate higher?
    Bastion of health - its the most powerful heal in PvP, so its a 5 rating there for sure. Also it gives tons of AP which is always useful both in PvP and PvE imo. Sure heals got nerfed to the ground but its still possible to heal tons if you are Faithful.

    Sunburst - its also 5 in PvP, very useful there. I think every single DC had always those 3 skills slotted in Domination, which is Astral Shield, Sunburst and Break the Spirit and swap one of those to BoH when needed.

    Guardian of Faith - its extremely situational but if you have good coordination with a GF you can prone the enemy and GF kills them easily. But yeah other than that it might be just rank 1 skill xD

    Foresight - its top 3 most important class feature in PvP, so I would rate it 5 as well. I pretty much always have it slotted next to Terrifying Insight.

    Anointed Armor - when I ran an AC build in PvP I always had it slotted to for extra tankiness, since u always want that extra deflect chance/AC so also 4/5.

    Anointed Action - its also quite useful when having proper recovery to spam dailies. Would give it 3/4.

    Holy Fervor - its also really nice sometimes with AC build and high recovery, can spam dailies.

    Divine Armor - I would give it a 4. I use it for situations when my teammates are extremely low HP and I have to get my heals up, so I throw DA, get divinity and heal them asap before temp HP goes down.
    PvP DC ~ Meep Neox
    YouTube
  • darthtzarrdarthtzarr Posts: 1,000Member Arc User
    edited December 2017
    miyanaa said:

    miyanaa said:

    ...

    ...
    ...
    I would like clarification if you still actually use these in 12b though, since from what I could tell, most healing is almost completely negated at this point, and since every clearer is a TR or has ~200% resistance ignored, I don't see how stacking DR is that useful in PVP unless you can get up over ~120% DR, which I know is possible, but questionably difficult to keep up at 100% uptime.

    Now about the low rated powers. That is actually kind of the point of the rating system. The more situational a power, the lower it rates. This means that if the only place a power is useful is PVP, and only situationally even in PVP, it could be a 3 in PVP, but it gets an even lower score overall. I don't think a numerical one dimension system rating is very good in this way, but it was I am using for now.

    To clarify, a ranking of 1 means that it is so useless that it should never be slotted, or is so situational that it could probably just be forgotten. Two means that a power is situational, and probably has a hard time seeing usage. Three means that a power is average, all-round, or balanced. These powers are usually good and have very little wrong with them. Four are powers that are usually very powerful regardless of what situation you use them in. Even if these powers aren't the right power for the situation, they can probably get the job done. Powers rated with a 5 are actually overpowered. These powers have no situation where they aren't the best power to slot. You can brute force any problem in the game with these powers regardless of how what synergy they have with your surroundings.

    Okay yeah I rated Sunburst a bit low. I find it very difficult to use, but it definitely is up there as one of the best CC powers the cleric has in PVP. But it is still only situationally useful, since it is terrabad in PVE, meaning it cannot be a 5, or even a 3. Additionally, it is situational and difficult to use in PVP, since you must wait for a good time and cannot use it while an opponent is immune. It has a small heal and small amount of damage, so really is only slotted for the CC.

    Divine Armor probably should be higher, but is somewhat situational currently, since Hallowed Ground provides a better defensive buff (in PVE) and a better offensive buff. It's a fairly average power though if you removed Hallowed Ground from the picture, so that is why I rated it a 3. It would need to be almost always slotted and usually cast in common situations to make it into the 4 category.

    The only reason I would use Guardian of Faith in PVP is for the heal. It's massive, but I can't say I am a big fan of healing clerics in PVP after 12b. If I wanted to help secure a kill I would likely use Hammer of Fate or Hallowed Ground (combined with a stunning encounter).

    The above statement is similar for Bastion of Health, although, I agree it is probably the only dedicated heal worth slotting for PVP. I like it, but can only find it situationally useful in PVP, and a power that is only situationally useful inside of PVP is definitely not making it above a 2 rating.

    Foresight and Anointed Armor are only rated at 2 and 3 because they are only good in PVP. I know they are good in PVP, but they aren't good in PVE, that's why they only get 2-3. The reason Anointed Armor is rated higher than Foresight is simply because Deflection chance will almost always beat out DR as a defensive stat in PVP against competent opponents (ones with decent armor pen). Either way, they are usually only good in PVP, and at least Foresight is situational depending on your opponent's investment into armor pen.

    Anointed Action is only a small 13% DR increase and 13% damage increase for a 5s duration, and only for yourself. If you can spam dailies every 5 seconds to benefit from this, you probably don't have enough power or armor pen to care about personal damage, and therefore probably should just slot a more defensive class feature like Anointed Armor, Divine Fortune or Hastening Light.

    Holy Fervor is a fairly decent class feature, but has nothing special about it that would make it stand out. It isn't really situational, but isn't really all that useful either. It is simply an average, all-rounder class feature, which is what the rating of 3 means.




    Signature [WIP] - tyvm John

  • pitshadepitshade Posts: 3,131Member Arc User
    One thing about Condemning Gaze. Using AoE powers, it is trivially easy to get enough stacks on mobs. I am not the most technical, but stacks are built per mob hit, so ine cast of chains can theoretically proc it.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Posts: 1,989Member Arc User
    edited December 2017
    miyanaa said:

    Awesome :)
    I can only imagine how much work you put into that.

    The thing that "bothers" me is that its for BiS players, cause I think that new players or people with not so good gear would actually slot BoH or Healer's Lore (those are rated as 1) for extra heals in most of dungeons where their team gets wiped.
    I agree that killing enemies faster with debuffs works better, but if team has reaaaaaally low dmg then those buffs wont really help as much xD

    Also you write "Some powers will be rated higher than expected simply because they are good in PVE or PVP", but your ratings are purely PvE, have nothing to do with PvP.
    Most of the skills you rated as 1 I would rate as 5 as I am a PvP player.


    If the team is wiping in lower content usually I will go with Astral Shield and drop Chains of Blaze. This usually works as I already keep Astral Seal up and use Divine Glow in Divinity 3x so healing is rarely the issue, normally it is a lack of defense. Though, many going to play a DC as their main and just starting out probably do not understand that defense maybe better than just healing.

    The other thing is may new players do not properly setup their character and is missing insignia, enchantment (even R5) etc and get all mad when another player who is similar IL but is more balanced comes in and wipes the floor when compared to their build.

    I have seen some 11 - 14K player that have R12 enchantments on their character and are using basic runestones and r7 enchantments on their companion and say I cheated because I have R12 bonding and using my higher enchantments on my companion. It is not rocket science though many think it is.
  • nevertwinevertwi Posts: 34Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited December 2017
    The bitly links are not woking for me so that powers are not setted.

    Mostly i agree with the review but a few things that i disagree on:
    • I wouldnt mention it if lower groups were not mentioned somewhere in the review: The usefulness of Bastion of Health / other heal feats seems to be underrated in context on lower dps groups or when running with people who havent optimal builds or builded enough lifesteal. Example: This power was important when i got into a ramdom queued mSp run on my fresh dc. Nosturas curse hit pretty hard until she used her "eye" attack again which could let the party get pretty low on life. It helped a ton to get the grp back to full life. The tank gf didnt had much dmg to begin with so fighters recovery didnt worked well and the dds didnt had much lifesteal to safe themselves. Additionally before nostura the phase where she disappears she layed down the curse on the tank and the curse stacked up to 40+. The only way the tank survived was due to an empowered bastion. While this seems just to be a cornercase, i see it rather often in pugs.
    • Near the same goes for AS in 1 DC runs: Most dds i have seen had around 30% dr or lower to begin with. Adding the 35% from HG and the 17.5% from divine glow pushed them to the cap of 80% or near to it. Now adding the 15% ArP the chult mobs have they would end up being at 65% and taking near double the damage without AS. That can cause some wipes.
    Other curios things:
    • Not sure about Brand of the sun too. I recall that mobs have 5% crit chance. With the feat the mobs woulnt crit anymore. I thought that this feat would be pretty important for lowering incoming spike dmg.
    • I wondered that in the build section there was nothing mentioned about an AC DC that provides both HG and AA, when being the only dc in group. Is the apGain at a BiS AC DC not good enough to cover both? With AP Sigil, red dragon artifact and artificiers buffs and only slotting recovery enchantements on the companion?
    • I heard that Foresight goes over the dr cap of 80% and can recall some really low incoming dmg in orcus fights. Is that true?
    • I do not understand the reasoning behind the "less good" interaction with GWFs. The "only me" debuffs from DS Mark 20%, even better if a gf provides it, and WMS 30% are indeed lowering the effectiveness of the debuffs in contrast to the rest of the party. But due to the Gift of Haste and Hastening Light the GWF can choose Battle Awareness over Relentless Battle Fury as BF reach near to 100% uptime even without that feat and the uptime from Slam is covered through Gift of Haste. Next to the lowered cd to IBS the gwf would gain additional damage from slam even if Battle Awareness profits just from a kind of base power. Taking the debuffs as con and the feat switch as a pro, the gwf would be on par with other classes unless the others can do something equal too? And the dps gf can reach higher but just equally important "just me" debuffs with 20% mark, 20% tide of iron and 30% wms
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Posts: 1,676Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    nevertwi said:


    • Not sure about Brand of the sun too. I recall that mobs have 5% crit chance. With the feat the mobs woulnt crit anymore. I thought that this feat would be pretty important for lowering incoming spike dmg.
    Yes, mobs possess a 5% base Crit chance like us players.
    Though the Crit reducing feat is still somewhat of a waste, since if the DO is properly placing HG/DG/DR buffs/etc, most attacks in the game are either "lulnodamage" or "gg get oneshotted no matter what you do", and enemies Critting or not doesn't eally change the damage scaling.
    nevertwi said:

    The bitly links are not woking for me so that powers are not setted.

    Mostly i agree with the review but a few things that i disagree on:

    • I wondered that in the build section there was nothing mentioned about an AC DC that provides both HG and AA, when being the only dc in group. Is the apGain at a BiS AC DC not good enough to cover both? With AP Sigil, red dragon artifact and artificiers buffs and only slotting recovery enchantements on the companion?
    To keep both up perpetually, you would need to fire a daily practically every 6 seconds.
    I know @thefabricant tried to do that with making a BiS build on preview and he found that it was practically impossible

    Also, not factoring in uptime, but due to the way Power Sharing and Power's DPS increase are calculated, you need 60kish base Power for AA to beat TI in terms of raw DPS increase.

    To do that, you would need a BiS build with R14s everywhere;also note that for all that effort, some lowbie DO DC with Rank4 powers will provide the same, if not better DPS increase with a fraction of the effort and build cost.

    If you have a Paladin in the team, there is pretty much never a situation when AA+BoB beats TI in a soloDC scenario. (See Sharp's attatched Powersharing sheet).

    The exception to this trend goes to Ra Nsi, since Partial Paralysis can go **** itself.
    nevertwi said:


    I do not understand the reasoning behind the "less good" interaction with GWFs. The "only me" debuffs from DS Mark 20%, even better if a gf provides it, and WMS 30% are indeed lowering the effectiveness of the debuffs in contrast to the rest of the party. But due to the Gift of Haste and Hastening Light the GWF can choose Battle Awareness over Relentless Battle Fury as BF reach near to 100% uptime even without that feat and the uptime from Slam is covered through Gift of Haste. Next to the lowered cd to IBS the gwf would gain additional damage from slam even if Battle Awareness profits just from a kind of base power. Taking the debuffs as con and the feat switch as a pro, the gwf would be on par with other classes unless the others can do something equal too? And the dps gf can reach higher but just equally important "just me" debuffs with 20% mark, 20% tide of iron and 30% wms
    Note that Sylux said GWF only "minorly" falls behind, relative to other classes.
    GWF and DC don't have any particular standout synergy like CWs and OPs have.

    Though, that's not saying much, since what class wouldn't benefit from having one class multiply their damage by a metric ****ton?
    You can't let yourself be held back by common sense.
  • darthtzarrdarthtzarr Posts: 1,000Member Arc User
    edited December 2017
    nevertwi said:

    The bitly links are not woking for me so that powers are not setted.

    I only setup the feats, since powers are swapped and changed around fairly commonly, and to be honest, most clerics will want the same powers.
    nevertwi said:

    I wouldnt mention it if lower groups were not mentioned somewhere in the review: The usefulness of Bastion of Health / other heal feats seems to be underrated in context on lower dps groups or when running with people who havent optimal builds or builded enough lifesteal. Example: This power was important when i got into a ramdom queued mSp run on my fresh dc. Nosturas curse hit pretty hard until she used her "eye" attack again which could let the party get pretty low on life. It helped a ton to get the grp back to full life. The tank gf didnt had much dmg to begin with so fighters recovery didnt worked well and the dds didnt had much lifesteal to safe themselves. Additionally before nostura the phase where she disappears she layed down the curse on the tank and the curse stacked up to 40+. The only way the tank survived was due to an empowered bastion. While this seems just to be a cornercase, i see it rather often in pugs.
    This is exactly the point. The issue is that healing itself is situational, and only marginally capable of saving the day even in the cases that seem to be designed for it. The one you described is one of those cases where it seems the devs wanted us to use a heal. Hati, Demo, and Kabal are other examples where it looks like the devs attempted to creatively add a need for heals, however, if a group is low and built poorly, heals often times can make a run even harder, since your team will do even less damage (since you aren't using buffs), they don't have enough uptime to be used in repeated emergencies, or your allies simply get one-shot. In cases where your team is average and built properly (so the supports have shepherds, the DPS has lifesteal etc), you will almost never find a situation where dedicated healing powers can even display green numbers.

    But in the end, yes, there are a few situations where slotting Bastion of Health can create a smoother, faster run than slotting any other power. That is why it is a 2, which means that it is slotted situationally. To be rated higher (3) it would need to be slotted commonly, and have some general or decent purpose in most content, but it doesn't; in most content, it just ends up just being an AP generating encounter with a long cast time.
    nevertwi said:

    Near the same goes for AS in 1 DC runs: Most dds i have seen had around 30% dr or lower to begin with. Adding the 35% from HG and the 17.5% from divine glow pushed them to the cap of 80% or near to it. Now adding the 15% ArP the chult mobs have they would end up being at 65% and taking near double the damage without AS. That can cause some wipes.
    You didn't include Shepherd's Devotion, Blessing of Battle, Circle of Power, Have Faith, Exaltation, and any other DR increasing effects that I probably forgot about. In the case of your team truly is built horribly, and the cleric is the only one providing any damage resistance, then yes, Astral Shield probably could have some use, but this situation is extremely rare, and generally only happens in tier one dungeons, where everyone plays a DPS class/build and nobody brings a tank... and I don't think anyone needs extra defenses in an area that doesn't even require a tank.

    No, you cannot always have an optimal party or build, but if I were to give the advice to slot Astral Shield instead of advising you to rush Shepherd's Devotion, I would be doing you a disservice. And finally, just like with Bastion of Health, situationally useful (only used in groups where a single cleric is the only source of DR, or the cleric is vastly undergeared) it is rated as a 2. If it were useful in all dungeons in low geared pug groups, it would be a 3 or higher, but it isn't.
    nevertwi said:


    Not sure about Brand of the sun too. I recall that mobs have 5% crit chance. With the feat the mobs woulnt crit anymore. I thought that this feat would be pretty important for lowering incoming spike dmg.
    If I remember correctly, all enemies only have like 15% critical severity, so even if they crit, it's highly underwhelming. If there was an enemy with a high crit chance, or some enemy with a very high critical severity, this could see use, but at the moment this feat is pretty useless outside of PVP. It's quite good in PVP in my opinion.
    nevertwi said:

    I wondered that in the build section there was nothing mentioned about an AC DC that provides both HG and AA, when being the only dc in group. Is the apGain at a BiS AC DC not good enough to cover both? With AP Sigil, red dragon artifact and artificiers buffs and only slotting recovery enchantements on the companion
    Like @rjc9000 said, I haven't seen someone able to keep them both at 100% uptime regardless of build, and since every bit of recovery you build decreases the usefulness of AA, I don't see it gaining much traction even if it could be done. Also like @rjc9000 mentioned, bondings proc on a cooldown now, which makes spamming AA every couple of seconds a very high priority for Anointed Champions.

    nevertwi said:

    I heard that Foresight goes over the dr cap of 80% and can recall some really low incoming dmg in orcus fights. Is that true?
    I haven't seen or heard about that before, but I haven't tested it explicitly. It's worth noting that Deflection and other shields go above the "80% cap", which can make some results look like you had more DR when looking at the log.
    nevertwi said:

    I do not understand the reasoning behind the "less good" interaction with GWFs. The "only me" debuffs from DS Mark 20%, even better if a gf provides it, and WMS 30% are indeed lowering the effectiveness of the debuffs in contrast to the rest of the party. But due to the Gift of Haste and Hastening Light the GWF can choose Battle Awareness over Relentless Battle Fury as BF reach near to 100% uptime even without that feat and the uptime from Slam is covered through Gift of Haste. Next to the lowered cd to IBS the gwf would gain additional damage from slam even if Battle Awareness profits just from a kind of base power. Taking the debuffs as con and the feat switch as a pro, the gwf would be on par with other classes unless the others can do something equal too? And the dps gf can reach higher but just equally important "just me" debuffs with 20% mark, 20% tide of iron and 30% wms
    One of the bigger reasons is because GWFs have more power than other classes, and benefit less from the AC power share build, along with the massive debuff pool you mentioned. The thing is that a lot of classes get similar feat switches, and the cleric isn't the only class reducing the cooldown of Battlefury.


    Signature [WIP] - tyvm John

  • plaviaplavia Posts: 539Member Arc User
    nice
    but i think guide in youtube will be more helpfull now. game is combinations, animation cancel, positions, team 'work' etc.

    my personal input;
    Lance of faith 5 - makes damage like an encounter and cover small area

    Astral Shield 0 - PVP & PVE
    BoH 5 - PVP & PVE. for solo its uselss, but cleric is party class.
    searing light 2 - i use it alot in solo and garbage runs (skirmish etc.)
    DG and BTS as well 5 as you mention

    Hammers 2 - its usefull in situations i need control imunity (mainly mode 12 solo contenet)
    divine armor ally cap is 5 (effect only 5 most centered players, DC might not get it)

    Healing action 3 - nothing else good at T1,T2 heroic feats
    gift of haste 5
    shared burden and united by faith should have more then 1 - compare to other T4, T5 feats
  • darthtzarrdarthtzarr Posts: 1,000Member Arc User
    plavia said:

    nice
    but i think guide in youtube will be more helpfull now.

    Not a very nice thing to say. I am working on a low level video guide, but in the end I am still learning how to do video editing. I made a written information guide because that is what I know how to do.
    plavia said:


    my personal input;
    Lance of faith 5 - makes damage like an encounter and cover small area

    I would recommend you read the damage section before claiming it does this. You can see fairly clearly in the ability information that Lance of Faith does 85% of your weapon damage, while even Divinity Daunting Light does almost 300% of your weapon damage. This isn't even close. A rating of 5 means that it is overpowered and there would be no reason to ever not use this power. Lance of Faith is very far from overpowered.
    plavia said:

    Astral Shield 0 - PVP & PVE

    There is no 0 ranking, and I had it originally listed at 1, but it is definitely situationally useful at extremely low levels or in groups without any of the correct items or classes. It's not common, but it's not that rare either. This can be fixed by the cleric buying the correct items, but that isn't always an option as a fresh character.
    plavia said:

    BoH 5 - PVP & PVE. for solo its uselss, but cleric is party class.

    Again, 5 means it's overpowered and can gain great benefit in every situation no matter what. This power is very very far from that state.
    plavia said:


    searing light 2 - i use it alot in solo and garbage runs (skirmish etc.)

    You using it is not proof enough that it is usable. There is only one dungeon in the game where this power actually comes out on top, and it requires a Transcendent enchantment to even be good in that one dungeon. Even then, it only barely beats Daunting Light in effectiveness. If you can create some type of logical argument for the power to be a 2
    plavia said:


    Hammers 2 - its usefull in situations i need control imunity (mainly mode 12 solo contenet)

    Lions, Dancers and Nightmare speakers can still stun you out of Hammer, so I don't know why it would be relevant in Chult. Besides that, I have only seen a use for it in PVP, and only on a DPS spec, and only against inexperienced opponents that try to challenge you inside it.
    plavia said:


    divine armor ally cap is 5 (effect only 5 most centered players, DC might not get it)

    Cool! Could you give a video example or other proof, so that I don't have to test it myself?
    plavia said:

    Healing action 3 - nothing else good at T1,T2 heroic feats

    Having nothing else good, doesn't automatically make another feat good. For a DPS Hybrid DO spec the feat doesn't even do anything, since they don't have a heal slotted most of the time.
    plavia said:

    gift of haste 5

    Gift of Haste is good, but it's very far from overpowered, since some allies cannot benefit much from the extra AP gain. Sometimes daily cooldowns, dailies that don't stack, or classes that simply don't have good dailies all gain very little benefit from this. They usually gain some benefit, but it's very far from overpowered after the nerf back around module 9, and the stack prevention in mod 11b
    plavia said:

    shared burden and united by faith should have more then 1 - compare to other T4, T5 feats

    I tried to never compare feats against each other unless it was relevant to the current topic. These feats do next to nothing outside of PVP, and even in PVP I wouldn't call them very amazing. If you really want to compare them against other feats, try comparing them to Condemning Gaze, Fire of the gods, and Bear Your Sins. It's a no contest.


    Signature [WIP] - tyvm John

  • putzboy78putzboy78 Posts: 1,728Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    I don't particularly care for video guides. Sometimes you just want to do a ctrl f to review concepts in video format you must try to random click your way through to find the content you need. Also accents can make videos annoying and videos create language barriers where text can be translated (even if poorly) by applications. I'm a big fan of @jeffslider builds but I don't watch his videos for that reason. It's not an offense, I just find it easier to scroll through his text. Than try to move through a youtube guide and pause at the right screen. Written guides tend to be more thorough anyhow as they are vetted many times over.

    Astral Shield is very useful. Certainly shouldn't be rated as useless. It has the ability to grant damage resistance which helps count burst damage and it can grant temp hp which can help with surviving burst damage and aid in proc'ing wrathful warrior. It is situational and not useless.

  • plaviaplavia Posts: 539Member Arc User
    i didnt say your guide is bad, with today playstyle data alone might be hard to understand.
    there are some situation i can't cast HG unless i try to cancel animation. for some runs with other DC or OP i might play completly different than my usuall combo. there are big diffrence between PVP to PVE and i might switch from AC to DO in middle of run if my party need it (PVP orPVE)

    lance of faith do same or more damage as FF, BTS, searing light, sun burst etc.
    with the third AOE efect its very nice damage.
    i realize you dont want to compare but still none of the other at will is that good.

    i use hammers at corcodille weekly, very usefull but need to time/spam it.

    try divine armor at demo and youll see its effect (try to cast the center not on you)
    srry but i am realy bad in this recording.
  • nevertwinevertwi Posts: 34Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited December 2017
    rjc9000 said:


    Yes, mobs possess a 5% base Crit chance like us players.
    Though the Crit reducing feat is still somewhat of a waste, since if the DO is properly placing HG/DG/DR buffs/etc, most attacks in the game are either "lulnodamage" or "gg get oneshotted no matter what you do", and enemies Critting or not doesn't eally change the damage scaling.

    Yes, its very situational. I recall that crit sev on mobs is the same as default crit sev of players so 75%. That could help in some cases from the "gg get oneshotted no matter what you do". Any meelee player staying in the turtles 4 snapping attack? You still wouldnt put the result of no death on that feat since you cant see if the attack would had crit.
    Sure it is useless in groups that follow the mechanics and position right or just overgeared the content.
    rjc9000 said:


    To keep both up perpetually, you would need to fire a daily practically every 6 seconds.
    I know @thefabricant tried to do that with making a BiS build on preview and he found that it was practically impossible

    Also, not factoring in uptime, but due to the way Power Sharing and Power's DPS increase are calculated, you need 60kish base Power for AA to beat TI in terms of raw DPS increase.

    To do that, you would need a BiS build with R14s everywhere;also note that for all that effort, some lowbie DO DC with Rank4 powers will provide the same, if not better DPS increase with a fraction of the effort and build cost.

    If you have a Paladin in the team, there is pretty much never a situation when AA+BoB beats TI in a soloDC scenario. (See Sharp's attatched Powersharing sheet).

    The exception to this trend goes to Ra Nsi, since Partial Paralysis can go **** itself.

    That doesnt match my math that powersharing with 60k base power can just come close to a flat 20% increase, but i ll rather read that sheet if i would find it. Do you have a link?


    This is exactly the point. The issue is that healing itself is situational, and only marginally capable of saving the day even in the cases that seem to be designed for it. The one you described is one of those cases where it seems the devs wanted us to use a heal. Hati, Demo, and Kabal are other examples where it looks like the devs attempted to creatively add a need for heals, however, if a group is low and built poorly, heals often times can make a run even harder, since your team will do even less damage (since you aren't using buffs), they don't have enough uptime to be used in repeated emergencies, or your allies simply get one-shot. In cases where your team is average and built properly (so the supports have shepherds, the DPS has lifesteal etc), you will almost never find a situation where dedicated healing powers can even display green numbers.

    But in the end, yes, there are a few situations where slotting Bastion of Health can create a smoother, faster run than slotting any other power. That is why it is a 2, which means that it is slotted situationally. To be rated higher (3) it would need to be slotted commonly, and have some general or decent purpose in most content, but it doesn't; in most content, it just ends up just being an AP generating encounter with a long cast time.

    I would slot Bastion / AS just as the 3 encounter thus the buffs HG, TI, empBtS and dGlow remain the same. The only difference would be that i wouldnt slot PoD for the debuff. Lets say the party already has debuffs worth of +100%. PoD would just increase the damage by 8.75% not considering the uptime of PoD and that it is near useless in "trash". Then I rather use some sort of protection as a 3 encounter, so that the lower players dont just randomly die. I didnt mentioned AC powers, since DO remains better when played with lower il players as you have already stated.
    A few other sceneries where it can be of use except mSp when the bosses dont melt:
    • First and second EToS boss have some nice 360° attack. New players with meelee toons dont know that thus often dying at the first time the attack happens -> AS would prevent that
    • Syndryths heal beam hits with 50% ArP since a few mods ago thus doing heavy dot dmg. Im not sure if that one can be cleansed. New tanks might not survive this-> Bastion could help here
    • Ethraniev Marrowslakes hand hitting archers that stay out of range of buffs. -> Bastion can get back to full life. I didnt mentioned here dGlow since it doesnt heal that much on a lower do dc and would be kind of wasted.
    • Ethraniev Marrowslakes jump followed by an hard hitting "at-will". People getting hit by the jump may not survive that follow up. -> AS would let them survive.
    • Shadow Wolves chasing people with low life. -> Bastion can get them back to full life, so they can fight back.
    That were just a few sceneries of 2 dungeons where AS / Bastion would be far more worth as a 3 Encounter than an additional debuff.


    You didn't include Shepherd's Devotion, Blessing of Battle, Circle of Power, Have Faith, Exaltation, and any other DR increasing effects that I probably forgot about. In the case of your team truly is built horribly, and the cleric is the only one providing any damage resistance, then yes, Astral Shield probably could have some use, but this situation is extremely rare, and generally only happens in tier one dungeons, where everyone plays a DPS class/build and nobody brings a tank... and I don't think anyone needs extra defenses in an area that doesn't even require a tank.

    No, you cannot always have an optimal party or build, but if I were to give the advice to slot Astral Shield instead of advising you to rush Shepherd's Devotion, I would be doing you a disservice. And finally, just like with Bastion of Health, situationally useful (only used in groups where a single cleric is the only source of DR, or the cleric is vastly undergeared) it is rated as a 2. If it were useful in all dungeons in low geared pug groups, it would be a 3 or higher, but it isn't.

    I didnt include BoB and Exaltation because i was thinking of a DO DC, since AC isnt that good in lower geared parties due to missing bondings. Have Faith isnt recommended for Dos either, so i didnt include them too. I didnt included Shepherds devotion because of the generally lower power of DOs especially on a lower il dc, but yeah maybe add another 5%. AS is indeed more situational.


    If I remember correctly, all enemies only have like 15% critical severity, so even if they crit, it's highly underwhelming. If there was an enemy with a high crit chance, or some enemy with a very high critical severity, this could see use, but at the moment this feat is pretty useless outside of PVP. It's quite good in PVP in my opinion.

    I recall that they have 75% crit sev like default stats on any player, but i cant test it in the near time.


    One of the bigger reasons is because GWFs have more power than other classes, and benefit less from the AC power share build, along with the massive debuff pool you mentioned. The thing is that a lot of classes get similar feat switches, and the cleric isn't the only class reducing the cooldown of Battlefury.

    I havent looked closer in other classes except the ones i play. Makes sense then.

  • nevertwinevertwi Posts: 34Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited December 2017
    rjc9000 said:


    Yes, mobs possess a 5% base Crit chance like us players.
    Though the Crit reducing feat is still somewhat of a waste, since if the DO is properly placing HG/DG/DR buffs/etc, most attacks in the game are either "lulnodamage" or "gg get oneshotted no matter what you do", and enemies Critting or not doesn't eally change the damage scaling.

    Yes, it is very situational. I recall that crit sev on mobs is the same as default crit sev of players so 75%. That could help in some cases from the "gg get oneshotted no matter what you do". Any meelee player staying in the turtles 4 snapping attack? You still wouldnt put the result of no death on that feat since you cant see if the attack would had crit.
    Sure it is useless in groups that follow the mechanics and position right or just overgeared the content.
    rjc9000 said:


    To keep both up perpetually, you would need to fire a daily practically every 6 seconds.
    I know @thefabricant tried to do that with making a BiS build on preview and he found that it was practically impossible

    Also, not factoring in uptime, but due to the way Power Sharing and Power's DPS increase are calculated, you need 60kish base Power for AA to beat TI in terms of raw DPS increase.

    To do that, you would need a BiS build with R14s everywhere;also note that for all that effort, some lowbie DO DC with Rank4 powers will provide the same, if not better DPS increase with a fraction of the effort and build cost.

    If you have a Paladin in the team, there is pretty much never a situation when AA+BoB beats TI in a soloDC scenario. (See Sharp's attatched Powersharing sheet).

    The exception to this trend goes to Ra Nsi, since Partial Paralysis can go **** itself.

    That doesnt match my math that powersharing with 60k base power can just come close to a flat 20% increase, but i ll rather read that sheet if i would find it. Do you have a link?


    This is exactly the point. The issue is that healing itself is situational, and only marginally capable of saving the day even in the cases that seem to be designed for it. The one you described is one of those cases where it seems the devs wanted us to use a heal. Hati, Demo, and Kabal are other examples where it looks like the devs attempted to creatively add a need for heals, however, if a group is low and built poorly, heals often times can make a run even harder, since your team will do even less damage (since you aren't using buffs), they don't have enough uptime to be used in repeated emergencies, or your allies simply get one-shot. In cases where your team is average and built properly (so the supports have shepherds, the DPS has lifesteal etc), you will almost never find a situation where dedicated healing powers can even display green numbers.

    But in the end, yes, there are a few situations where slotting Bastion of Health can create a smoother, faster run than slotting any other power. That is why it is a 2, which means that it is slotted situationally. To be rated higher (3) it would need to be slotted commonly, and have some general or decent purpose in most content, but it doesn't; in most content, it just ends up just being an AP generating encounter with a long cast time.

    I would slot Bastion / AS just as the 3 encounter thus the buffs HG, TI, empBtS and dGlow remain the same. The only difference would be that i wouldnt slot PoD for the debuff. Lets say the party already has debuffs worth of +100%. PoD would just increase the damage by ~ 8% not considering the uptime of PoD and that it is near useless in "trash". Then I rather use some sort of protection as a third encounter, so that the lower players dont just randomly die. I didnt mentioned AC powers, since DO remains better when played with lower il players as you have already stated.
    Some other sceneries where it can be of use:
    • First and second EToS boss have some nice 360° attack. New players with meelee toons dont know that. Thus they ll often die at the first time the attack happens -> AS would prevent that
    • Syndryths heal beam hits with 50% ArP since a few mods ago thus doing heavy dot dmg. Im not sure it that one can be cleansed. New tanks might not survive this-> Bastion could help here
    • Ethraniev Marrowslakes hand hitting archers that stay out of range of buffs. -> Bastion can get back to full life. I didnt mentioned here dGlow since it doesnt heal that much on a lower do dc and would be kind of wasted.
    • Ethraniev Marrowslakes jump followed by an hard hitting "at-will". People getting hit by the jump may not survive that follow up. -> AS would let them survive.
    • Shadow Wolves chasing people with low life. -> Bastion can get them back to full life to fight back.
    That were just a few sceneries of two dungeons where AS / Bastion would be far more worth as a third Encounter than an additional debuff.


    You didn't include Shepherd's Devotion, Blessing of Battle, Circle of Power, Have Faith, Exaltation, and any other DR increasing effects that I probably forgot about. In the case of your team truly is built horribly, and the cleric is the only one providing any damage resistance, then yes, Astral Shield probably could have some use, but this situation is extremely rare, and generally only happens in tier one dungeons, where everyone plays a DPS class/build and nobody brings a tank... and I don't think anyone needs extra defenses in an area that doesn't even require a tank.

    No, you cannot always have an optimal party or build, but if I were to give the advice to slot Astral Shield instead of advising you to rush Shepherd's Devotion, I would be doing you a disservice. And finally, just like with Bastion of Health, situationally useful (only used in groups where a single cleric is the only source of DR, or the cleric is vastly undergeared) it is rated as a 2. If it were useful in all dungeons in low geared pug groups, it would be a 3 or higher, but it isn't.

    I didnt include BoB and Exaltation because i was thinking of a DO DC, since AC isnt that good in lower geared parties due to missing bondings. Have Faith isnt recommended for Dos either, so i didnt include them too. I didnt included Shepherds devotion because of the generally lower power of DOs especially on a lower il dc, but yeah maybe add another 5% dr. AS is indeed more situational.


    If I remember correctly, all enemies only have like 15% critical severity, so even if they crit, it's highly underwhelming. If there was an enemy with a high crit chance, or some enemy with a very high critical severity, this could see use, but at the moment this feat is pretty useless outside of PVP. It's quite good in PVP in my opinion.

    I recall that they have 75% crit sev like default player stats, but i cant test it in the near time.


    One of the bigger reasons is because GWFs have more power than other classes, and benefit less from the AC power share build, along with the massive debuff pool you mentioned. The thing is that a lot of classes get similar feat switches, and the cleric isn't the only class reducing the cooldown of Battlefury.

    I havent looked closer in other classes except the ones i play. Makes sense then.



  • thefabricantthefabricant Posts: 4,236Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited December 2017
    @nevertwi mobs have 25% crit severity, according to tests done by @michela123.

    Here is that power share sheet I did.

    Mobs do not have exactly 5% crit chance, I tested some mob attacks and it deviates from attack to attack (some crit ~15% of the time) but I am not going to sit around getting hit 1000's of times working out an approximation of the crit chance of every single attack. Furthermore, we do not know if that is a flat additive -5% crit chance or a 0.95 multiplier and I will not test for that either. The value of that feat is very low since any hit by mob that kills you on crit would probably kill you on non crit as well.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Posts: 2,130Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited December 2017

    @nevertwi mobs have 25% crit severity, according to tests done by @michela123.

    Here is that power share sheet I did.

    Mobs do not have exactly 5% crit chance, I tested some mob attacks and it deviates from attack to attack (some crit ~15% of the time) but I am not going to sit around getting hit 1000's of times working out an approximation of the crit chance of every single attack. Furthermore, we do not know if that is a flat additive -5% crit chance or a 0.95 multiplier and I will not test for that either. The value of that feat is very low since any hit by mob that kills you on crit would probably kill you on non crit as well.

    You don't need to test for that specifically, just look at ACT of runs, you can see the crit chance of mobs. A lot actually have / had 5%. But I don't think anyone want to test specifically that.
    Post edited by micky1p00 on
    Guild: The Imaginary Friends
    If you disagree with me: My opinions are my own and do not reflect on my guild and friends.
    If you agree with me: My opinions are totally the guild official policy !
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