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Tong is limited to few people (15kiL+) with specific classes (DC,GF,OP,CW mof) and specs...

pantha7pantha7 Member Posts: 33 Arc User
Why not make a difficult dungeon available for all classes..i mean 'all' ..always accentuate that word...cryptic devs don't listen to me...
and of course force geared players to carry lower item level players 11k,12k... to complete the dungeon that is called Tong and farm seals and gear... just like the leveling dungeons which geared players carry leveling players...p;
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  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 451 Arc User
    pantha7 said:

    Why not make a difficult dungeon available for all classes..i mean 'all' ..always accentuate that word...cryptic devs don't listen to me...
    and of course force geared players to carry lower item level players 11k,12k... to complete the dungeon that is called Tong and farm seals and gear... just like the leveling dungeons which geared players carry leveling players...p;

    U can do tong without 15k and without beeing 1 of the mentioned classes. But that aside, there are tons of other dungeons to run if u find Tong to difficult.
  • metalicum1metalicum1 Member Posts: 174 Arc User
    pantha7 said:

    Why not make a difficult dungeon available for all classes..i mean 'all' ..always accentuate that word...cryptic devs don't listen to me...
    and of course force geared players to carry lower item level players 11k,12k... to complete the dungeon that is called Tong and farm seals and gear... just like the leveling dungeons which geared players carry leveling players...p;

    This is more about class balance, and more specifically what rules Neverwinter right now than about the content itself. And there is something to say, no doubt. But To9G is an end game. I have no problem that being open only to the best players, most advanced "1%".

    I suggest you find friends with whom to play, so that you don't have to deal with the public.
    Aris Meyde CW MoF Renegade 3,150

    Black Division [PS4]
    Alliance - House Stargaryen
  • clericalistclericalist Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 504 Arc User

    I have no problem that being open only to the best players, most advanced "1%".

    I think that is too restrictive, to provide content that only 1% can play means you are going to chase away a lot of players.

  • pantha7pantha7 Member Posts: 33 Arc User
    edited November 26

    pantha7 said:

    Why not make a difficult dungeon available for all classes..i mean 'all' ..always accentuate that word...cryptic devs don't listen to me...
    and of course force geared players to carry lower item level players 11k,12k... to complete the dungeon that is called Tong and farm seals and gear... just like the leveling dungeons which geared players carry leveling players...p;

    This is more about class balance, and more specifically what rules Neverwinter right now than about the content itself. And there is something to say, no doubt. But To9G is an end game. I have no problem that being open only to the best players, most advanced "1%".

    I suggest you find friends with whom to play, so that you don't have to deal with the public.
    @metalicum1 yu mean that endgame content has to be limited to a few 1% of the players who play neverwinter ?
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,347 Arc User
    edited November 27
    pantha7 said:

    Why not make a difficult dungeon available for all classes

    ToNG *is* available to all classes. It is just that because of the way it is designed, some classes are more "popular" than others.

    If you want a reasonable fast and smooth run (under 30 minutes and no wipes), you will want an "optimal"group, and that means 2 DCS, OP, a good DPS and one "any". This is somewhat bad news for certain classes - and the status of things is simply that it is hard for a TR, SW or a "non-MoF CW" to join ToNG groups, unless they are really, really good, or simply just start the group and invite their friends. You never see anyone looking for a TR in the "elite" channels, for example.

    However, if you are in a good guild, chances are that you can get a guild/allance run, which includes the less popular classes, less-geared or less-experienced players. Sure, it might take a bit longer to finish, but that doesn't really matter so much when you are playing with your friends, right?

    At this time, that's the best chance for an IL 12-13K player to get into ToNG.-but then again, if you haven't already finished all the other campaigns and such, you proably shouldn't be trying to get into ToNG anyhow.

    14-15 is just fine for ToNG if you know what you are doing - you don't have to be 17-18K to finish it.
    Post edited by adinosii on
    Primary: Tanya - Female Half-elf DC
    Secondary: Draupnir Irontoe - Male Dwarf GF (and 14 others I play even less)

    Member of Civil Anarchy
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 3,706 Arc User
    I've run with guildies who've brought TRs, HRs, SWs, Healadins...

    It is 'optimal' (time wise) to run with 4 buffers and a GWF or HR but it's not necessary.

    As for the item level requirement, well it is supposed to be the hardest T3 in the game and is meant for endgame players...


    Xael De Armadeon: DC
    Xane De Armadeon: CW
    Zen De Armadeon: OP
    Zohar De Armadeon: TR
    Chrion De Armadeon: SW
    Gosti Big Belly: GWF
    Barney McRustbucket: GF
    Lt. Thackeray: HR

    Ruthless - GH 20 <XBox>
    We are always looking for players to join our community - current req is 10k without guild boons, no donations or influence required. PM me if you're interested
  • oldbaldyoneoldbaldyone Member Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    OP with another "make the game easier" thread. Imagine that.....

    Again, I think this game is not for you anymore. Maybe back pre mod 6, but that time has passed. Pre mod 6 and post mod 6 might as well be different games.
    5994311IRAQP.png
  • metalicum1metalicum1 Member Posts: 174 Arc User
    By 1% I had the elite players in mind. not actually 1% of the player base.
    I have no problem having 1 dungeon that is restrictive in this way.

    But let's be real here, if you know your HAMSTER, you can complete any dungeon with 13k party composed of any classes, as long as you follow basic principles.
    It's not like you can only complete it in 16k 2 DC, GF, Pally group. That's only your impression because you see all those players looking in public for those, because runs with those classes are most efficient (if they know their classes and play them well).
    Aris Meyde CW MoF Renegade 3,150

    Black Division [PS4]
    Alliance - House Stargaryen
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 1,459 Arc User
    pantha7 said:

    Why not make a difficult dungeon available for all classes..i mean 'all' ..always accentuate that word...cryptic devs don't listen to me...
    and of course force geared players to carry lower item level players 11k,12k... to complete the dungeon that is called Tong and farm seals and gear... just like the leveling dungeons which geared players carry leveling players...p;

    The reason why specific classes are preferred is because nothing is balanced.

    GWF and HR are the strongest and hardest hitting DPS in the game. They are taken over any other DPS because of this.

    GF and DCs are buffer for the new content and GF can do good damage, not GWF or HR but some GF can out DPS a CW or a SW, so that is why many group now run..

    1 OP Tank
    2 DC
    1 GWF or HR
    1 GF

    This group makeup is the new meta because it allows for more damage and you have an off tank with an off healer by bringing along a GF and a 2nd DC. This results in two DPS classes being typically left out of content.

    You cannot blame the devs for this. It is the community that wants fast runs and enjoy imbalanced groups.

    A few ways to resolve this is to remove the ability of private Q which would take out the 2nd tank and 2nd DC and encourage picking up a SW or a CW even if they have to play as buffers over pure DPS.
  • sadus671sadus671 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 199 Arc User
    edited November 27
    This is not some novel concept....

    Pretty much ever MMO with maybe the exception of WoW required players to gear up on lesser content to do the current top tier content...

    (I say WoW... because of their habit of trivializing end game gear with each expansion)

    Also people need to understand... that those people looking for 15k+ with meta group are "farming" the content... they are not doing dungeon crawls. (Also try forming the group... vs. just spamming LFG channel.... granted.. people are going to expect you to know WTF you are doing (YouTube is your friend)... if you are forming the group)

    So best bet... find other people who are committed to crawling the dungeon vs. getting carried through the dungeon... looking for free loot...

    Unfortunately.... too many people... want to be carried through dungeons... crying that can't improve their characters until they get the gear...

    Well NWO is 90% about enchantments + Legendary Artifact Weapons and 10% armor/ring drops. SO... if you are using Masterwork Armor and MW/River District/ Relic Weapons... and using rank 13 bonding + enchants... then you are about 90% of someone in Primal gear... that 10% definitely makes a difference... but you aren't going to get blown out of the water on Paingiver...

    Now if you are someone using Pilgram Gear with Epic Artifacts/Artifact Gear... and using Rank 10s... (I think that would get someone to 13k?) Then you have some grinding to do....

    Nothing comes for free... and if it has for you... then count yourself privileged and don't complain.


    -= Primary Characters =-

    - Forge (GF)
    - Apocalypse - (DC)
    - Sadus (OP)
    - Fireball (GWF)
    - Ixian (CW)

    Thank you Loadouts for allowing my toons to be all the things... they ever wanted to be....

    Member of Ember Legion
  • santralafaxsantralafax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,718 Arc User
    edited November 28
    sadus671 said:

    Well NWO is 90% about enchantments + Legendary Artifact Weapons and 10% armor/ring drops. SO... if you are using Masterwork Armor and MW/River District/ Relic Weapons... and using rank 13 bonding + enchants... then you are about 90% of someone in Primal gear... that 10% definitely makes a difference... but you aren't going to get blown out of the water on Paingiver...

    I plan on updating my armor, but TBH, Primal doesnt seem particularly better than Vivified/MW. More hit points, I suppose. And you can add 80 pts to your ILevel....

    I haven't seen better stat distribution than Vivified.
  • baronstragenbaronstragen Member Posts: 85 Arc User
    I'm not the first one to say ilevel isn't everything and I won't be the last. Use armor that benifits you and you will have a much easier go at it.
    Varric Dwarven CW (Don't laugh!)
    Serenity Snappy Dwarven RiDO
    Tokarek Bearded OP Tankadin

    Guild Leader in Limitless
    A Relentless Alliance.
  • drsmilingdogdrsmilingdog Member Posts: 41 Arc User
    Class imbalance or perceived "best" group composition aside...An end game dungeon that contains end game gear is essentially the "reward" for grinding your butt off and making your way through all the previous content. I don't think certain classes should be left out but IL...? Yes! If you're only 12-13k then there are dozens of other things you can and SHOULD grind out before trying to skip your way to the top by beating the end game content. If you can...more power to ya, but it shouldn't be an expectation :)
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 1,459 Arc User

    Class imbalance or perceived "best" group composition aside...An end game dungeon that contains end game gear is essentially the "reward" for grinding your butt off and making your way through all the previous content. I don't think certain classes should be left out but IL...? Yes! If you're only 12-13k then there are dozens of other things you can and SHOULD grind out before trying to skip your way to the top by beating the end game content. If you can...more power to ya, but it shouldn't be an expectation :)

    What you are saying is that players who are 13K roughly have not spent enough money on improving their enchantments, buying Legendary mounts, buying gear (if that is an issue), etc...

    I have three characters that are in the 12.5-13.2K range. All three can do all content the problem is the community and not the content. Community does not want 1 hour dungeon runs. They do not want a 1-1-3 group where the 3 could have two DPS classes running as a buffer or even 1 of the 3 as a buffer. The community in game wants 2 DC, 1 tank and 1 additional buffer and 1 HDPS (15K+) usually a HR or GWF.

    With some cash I can easily get all and I mean all of my characters to 15k. Will it make me a better player. Will my toons be better off at 15K than at 13K?

    The answer to this question is if I build my toon wrong than it won't matter if I am 13k or 15K. I have seen some well built 13K toons beat out 16K+ toons of the same class. IL IMO does not equal ability to produce damage.

    I ran my CW as a buffer many times now and I have kept up with some 15K GWF as a buffing CW that was using Combustive Action and Swath of Destruction. I'm sorry but at 13k and buffing I should not be keeping up with a 15k GWF on my 13K CW.

    How you build is the most important thing in this game and even the best builds due to imbalance can result in some classes (TR, CW, and SW) being skipped over for other classes (GWF, HR) in the latest content.

    This game seems to like its FotM class. Right now it is GWF and HR. Real balance would result in no class being OP as a DPS class and all DPS classes would be invited into the latest content as a DPS.

  • oldbaldyoneoldbaldyone Member Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    Meh. I've seen 13ks outdamage 16ks, I've seen 17ks that have no clue what they are doing and I've seen 17ks that can do so much that I have to question whether they are exploiting or not. Item Level isn't everything. It also is not irrelevant. While I understand people not wanting to dump a ton of AD/money into getting that 1-2% more damage or whatever, those that do can logically be considered more passionate about the game (may be true, may not).

    The game needs some indication of your game prowess, since "level 70" means nothing. If they removed item level, which many people want, people would just come up with another way to measure you. "LF4M TONG, must have 2 pieces of Primal" or something like that. Think back to SOMI, when people would state their class, ability spec, companion and bonding level.....yea, that was fun, wasn't it? /sarcasm

    The bottom line is, time is valuable and boredom is boring. The game is designed around running the same content repeatedly, over and over and over X1000. No matter who you are, it gets boring, and when you do boring things, you want them done with as quickly as possible. The best indicator you have when inviting unknowns to your party is their IL, and if you know nothing about the person, the higher than IL, the more confident you are that they can do what you need them to do. Don't take it personally that someone won't take your 13.5k DPS over a 16k DPS. Put yourself in their shoes...which would YOU choose? If you said the 13.5, you are lying to yourself (again, talking complete unknown person).

    It is a community problem, a balance problem, an individual problem, and a commitment problem, an entitlement problem. Everyone has a piece of the pie.
    5994311IRAQP.png
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 1,459 Arc User
    How is it a commitment problem?

    Trying to get an item ranked up that had a 5% chance to proc and 500 wards later it still did not proc for me. I know other players that can achieving success with 1% on weapon or armor enchantment with only 2 or 3 wards pretty regularly.

    Just like I know some players that average a legendary mount every 25-50 keys yet I have not seen any after a few thousand LB?

    I ran with a player that was getting fantastic drop out of VT, MC, eToS, etc... One day that player I ran with got a Harper Bard in FBI than we went into VT and he got a Cam. Mage. Both are worth a few million. He sees one of those every week roughly.

    LUCK plays a big role and if you are not lucky than you have to PAY to advance your character and I'm simply done putting money into a game where everything is simply a money grab that in 3 months or so will no longer be BiS.

    Since I have such bad luck my characters all tend to take time to gear up. Also, I have no been in a guild where a BiS character quits and gives away their enchantments either. I have talked to many players who are close to BiS that were in a guild where a guildie gave them R12 bondings and a few R12 enchantments.

    I was committed to rank up my character but with so much bad luck I gave up. The other thing is that this game is so imbalanced that even if I had my characters at max, due to imbalance I still would have some issues getting into content. I mean how many CW have complained they are being passed over for content as DPS or even buffers because of the meta the community prefers.

    LUCK and class you play has a big impact on if you can run the latest and greatest content. I have a friend that has a SW that is near 16K but he is often passed over for a 14K GWF or HR. This game needs a serious adjustment across the board.

    Whatever the devs plan, hopefully they can fix many of the issues in this game.
  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 428 Arc User
    edited November 29
    Actually if the character has primal gear matters more than the IL in terms of skill.
    [*] Lescar PvE CW - Sir Garic PvE OP
    [*] Black Lotus
  • darthtzarrdarthtzarr Member Posts: 904 Arc User
    edited November 29

    Don't take it personally that someone won't take your 13.5k DPS over a 16k DPS. Put yourself in their shoes...which would YOU choose? If you said the 13.5, you are lying to yourself (again, talking complete unknown person).

    To be honest I usually just ignore their item level completely and start inspecting gear. If I see a ring of vanishing presence on the 16k, he is automatically disqualified in my book. The choice of gear rather than the quality of gear can usually tell a lot about how well someone will do. That's part of why there aren't really any good ideas for creating an alternative to the item level system. It would be too complicated, and would change every time new gear was added or combinations discovered, assuming it were based directly off your equipped items.

    That's part of why I would prefer something closer to a leaderboard or ranking system like Rocket League, League of Legends, Path of Exile or other games, so that you could see record times, or player experience/performance rather than just the quality of their gear.

    Signature [WIP] - tyvm John

  • darthtzarrdarthtzarr Member Posts: 904 Arc User

    Actually if the character has primal gear matters more than the IL in terms of skill.

    Yeah because it means they completed ToNG multiple times already haha

    Signature [WIP] - tyvm John

  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,804 Arc User
    edited November 29

    ...If I see a ring of vanishing presence on the 16k, he is automatically disqualified in my book.....

    Is that prejudice against stealth?
    You must have have issues with TRs too? Ah we are not good enough for you? And don't excuse with "Can't target exhalation"!

    Shame! Shame! Shame!

    (jk)
    Guild: The Imaginary Friends
    If you disagree with me: My opinions are my own and do not reflect on my guild and friends.
    If you agree with me: My opinions are totally the guild official policy !
    ;)
  • darthtzarrdarthtzarr Member Posts: 904 Arc User
    micky1p00 said:

    ...If I see a ring of vanishing presence on the 16k, he is automatically disqualified in my book.....

    Is that prejudice against stealth?
    You must have have issues with TRs too? Ah we are not good enough for you? And don't excuse with "Can't target exhalation"!

    Shame! Shame! Shame!

    (jk)
    I have a prejudice against getting 2 of those stupid rings from demo already :weary:

    Signature [WIP] - tyvm John

  • drsmilingdogdrsmilingdog Member Posts: 41 Arc User
    > @mebengalsfan#9264 said:
    > Class imbalance or perceived "best" group composition aside...An end game dungeon that contains end game gear is essentially the "reward" for grinding your butt off and making your way through all the previous content. I don't think certain classes should be left out but IL...? Yes! If you're only 12-13k then there are dozens of other things you can and SHOULD grind out before trying to skip your way to the top by beating the end game content. If you can...more power to ya, but it shouldn't be an expectation :)
    >
    > What you are saying is that players who are 13K roughly have not spent enough money on improving their enchantments, buying Legendary mounts, buying gear (if that is an issue), etc...
    >
    > I have three characters that are in the 12.5-13.2K range. All three can do all content the problem is the community and not the content. Community does not want 1 hour dungeon runs. They do not want a 1-1-3 group where the 3 could have two DPS classes running as a buffer or eveyf the 3 as a buffer. The community in game wants 2 DC, 1 tank and 1 additional buffer and 1 HDPS (15K+) usually a HR or GWF.
    >
    > With some cash I can easily get all and I mean all of my characters to 15k. Will it make me a better player. Will my toons be better off at 15K than at 13K?
    >
    > The answer to this question is if I build my toon wrong than it won't matter if I am 13k or 15K. I have seen some well built 13K toons beat out 16K+ toons of the same class. IL IMO does not equal ability to produce damage.
    >
    > I ran my CW as a buffer many times now and I have kept up with some 15K GWF as a buffing CW that was using Combustive Action and Swath of Destruction. I'm sorry but at 13k and buffing I should not be keeping up with a 15k GWF on my 13K CW.
    >
    > How you build is the most important thing in this game and even the best builds due to imbalance can result in some classes (TR, CW, and SW) being skipped over for other classes (GWF, HR) in the latest content.
    >
    > This game seems to like its FotM class. Right now it is GWF and HR. Real balance would result in no class being OP as a DPS class and all DPS classes would be invited into the latest content as a DPS.

    I don't think we are actually in disagreement about anything my good man lol! I think I may have been to brief and hence the point was lost so let me try and clarify what I meant :) I 100% agree that build is more important than IL and I did not mean to imply that someone 12 -13kish can't, shouldn't try or isn't welcome in Tong or any other end game content, my apologies to the OP if it sounded that way! What I'm trying to say is that if a persons personal perception is that the content is too hard and/or they are waiting around for someone to carry them through content then change it! I only mentioned IL because in this case it's a indicator that you can do things to improve your toon which will make things a little easier, you'll feel less like you're a burden to a group and others will see more value in inviting you. No one HAS to do these things...it's just in your best interest in the long run :) Is it a problem that the community is biased toward a certain IL or group composition? Sure...but since you can't change thousands of other people that leaves you the option of changing yourself. I hope that makes a bit more sense :) Oh and there was no mention of anyone needing to spend money...we ALL know that isn't necessary lol
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 3,239 Arc User
    You can succeed with 13 k IL for sure. An OP can tank that dungeon even at 12k IL, a DO DC only has to be "present" and press few button, he could even run at 9k IL if he survives.
    You need one good dps for sure.
    You do fine in case you know what key to press and wich buffs to stack. NWO= math , stacking of buffs and debuffs, that´s all.

    The problem I got with actual content is:
    1. the disbalance between classes. Just look up for the actual classes represented in Tong, easy to see what´s wrong.
    2. the community that spams on every channel OPDCOPDCOPDCOPDCOPDC , like being brainwahsed, no way to escape
    3. the fact that those classes ( DC and OP), are prefered over others even maxed classes and a big part of them doing a pretty bad job.
  • asterotgasterotg Member Posts: 1,564 Arc User
    I did run TONG with my CW, with my DC and with my GF. Group composition matters. Builds matter a lot, too. The gap between a group running with decent gear and BIS gear is huge. The difference between a 'classic' group and a GF, OP, GWF, DC, DC group is even bigger. Even in this FOTM groups you will find huge differences depending on the gear of the DD(s), OP and AC DC.

    The fastest (and easiest) runs were with FOTM groups. I hate to say it, bc my CW is my main and has near to BIS gear, but I prefer running TONG with my DC or my GF.
    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
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