Hawaii and Belgium loot box ban!!!

dagambit

I am asking this question after the EA BattleFront II outrage over loot boxes. Hawaii and Belgium says EA's loot boxes are gambling. So where does that leave Neverwinter in concerns with lockboxes? Neverwinter is a free to play game BattleFront II is cost $60. Neverwinter your progression isn't halted by not having keys to purchase lockboxes like as in the said game. If EA's loot crates are considered gambling by Hawaii and Belgium, can't be said for all games that offer loot boxes? We are gambling for the contents inside the box, people have said this when The Division introduced micro transactions.

My questions is when games you pay for offer micro transactions for loot boxes it's considered gambling, but when free to play games offer loot boxes it's not. I am confused about this because of how the term gambling is being used in video games now. Hawaii and Belgium along with another country/state in Europe are trying to get loot boxes banned and regulated. How will this affect Neverwinter in the future going forward?

I know from experience Neverwinter is not a pay to win game. At times I do feel as if I am gambling for the contents inside a lockbox when I open it. I don't want to throw that term around loosely especially when it comes to video games. Gambling - is taking a risk for a desired result. So if this fiasco that EA has started with loot boxes force micro transactions to be banned or regulated what does that mean for Neverwinter.

This is just something I was thinking about after all this news on BattleFront this week. Has anyone else thought about this besides me?

wentris

Lootboxes have become pretty hot topic in gaming industry recently and we wont know how will it affect f2p games. The concern, however, is not if game is f2p, or p2p, but how it tricks human mind, especially minors. The problem with Neverwinter is - not many things in shop, besides wards and Vip, are worth buying, especially repeatedly. Lootboxes seem to be a hefty part of income.

On the other hand if you are p2p in this game - maintaining VIP costs about 10$ per month, count in wards needed to upgrade your character and this alone generates a decent income, looking at the price of other games - but is it enough to pay not only for yourself, but for all F2P guys? Only Cryptic knows that.

froger

I don't know if loot boxes can be considered gambling. When I gamble I win sometimes.

armadeonx

I believe the difference may be that you can buy the keys for AD earned through playing the game. E.g. I never spend money on the game but I use one key per day from vip. If I wanted to buy 100 keys, I have enough AD to do that.

Yes that is a gamble but it's not with real money. F2P games do not 'require' the use of real cash for keys and that's probably how they get away with it.

arcanjo86

armadeonx said:

I believe the difference may be that you can buy the keys for AD earned through playing the game. E.g. I never spend money on the game but I use one key per day from vip. If I wanted to buy 100 keys, I have enough AD to do that.

Yes that is a gamble but it's not with real money. F2P games do not 'require' the use of real cash for keys and that's probably how they get away with it.

you also can buy the keys with real money, and sometime the money you paid for those keys dont reflect on the rewards given by the lockboxes, basicly its gambling, on this way of thinking.

armadeonx

Yes we know it's gambling - but what I'm talking about is that because it's not 'required' to spend money, it could be regarded as a loophole.

sundance777

It will be interesting to see where they land on this. One definition: "Gambling is the wagering of money or something of value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning money or material goods". In this definition it could probably be argued that these are all just pixels in a game and not material or of any value,,,And the US government already gets sales tax on game purchases so it is unlikely they would slap the gambling label on this, that;'s just a way to get tax revenue

mahburg

With recent moves in law in China as well as the Brussels proposal to the EU we may see significant restrictions legally going forward.
Straight purchase of high value assets would be a better way to go for gaming companies in the future imho!

As Dylan put it "the times they are a changing"

sundance777

The one I stumbled across today in the news is a game maker trying to sue a minor for cheating and streaming the cheat on a free to play game. That could have an interesting effect on FTP games as well.

dagambit

Well between Bungie and EA this loot box thing is blowing up. Bungie is throttling down EXP to force people to buy loot boxes. Whats going on with game developers and publishers this year. As far as gambling in video games goes, the argument being used is we are not guaranteed a purchase of our choice therefore its gambling. Example we buy a key if you don't have VIP, and want to open the glorious lockbox wanting the legendary mount pack. You don't get it, you actually don't know what you are going to get you are taking a chance and not knowing what you are getting. That's really what the problem is as of right now, and the fact EA was using the high leveling criteria, and low exp resources was forcing people to buy lootboxes. I am really hoping this doesn't go bad for video games in general that offer micro transactions. Not every game developer is greedy.

demonmonger

Just open boxes for trade bars

mahburg

etelgrin said:

Opening a lockbox gives your brain same high as if you were throwing a coin to the machine and hoping to get a jackpot reward. Thats just how it is. Simply add a disclosure that opening the lockbox is gambling, which means that you won't neccesarily get the top tier rewards, and that opening it is on your own responsibility. There are some minorities that are more affected by it or less but by general thats how humans are. I know people are against gambling, that some want to protect their kids or whatnot but it should be up to the mature audience (controlled by mature person) to decide whether they want to open it or not.

Sadly in modern society legislators believe they know best whats good for us whether its Alcohol, Smoking, Obesity, Fizzy drinks or gaming (gambling if you must), they feel driven to interfere and dictate how we should live.

It always starts like this, it ends with serious restrictions on individual rights and freedoms.

Lock box RNG is gambling and the games are accessible by kids therefore they will impose some restriction due to the fact that some parents do not monitor their kids.

Gaming companies need to get ahead of the curve and put the high value items (leg mounts) directly into the store so people can buy them explicitly as a defined transaction rather than as part of RNG.

The net effect should be revenue neutral for them if they are smart.

destrowod

Its funny because i am probably the biggest lootboxe hater with Jim Sterling and im on the front to lead the charge against them but in NW they do not bother me at all. I guess the fact the game is F2P and knowing your odds of obtaining a legendary mounts are super low is already known therefore you don't count on it.

In game like Battlefronts 2, the problem come that the whole game progression system is based around it. They purposely up the grind to be insane to make you pay. Not to mention the whole pay 2 win factor.

While in NW you can buy directly what you want, either with real money or AD (convert to zen etc) and the lootboxes are not nessessary at all to progress in the game.

I see them more like fun bonuses when i have extra AD or at times i would throw a 10$ at the game for a pack of keys (before they made me decide to not spend a dime til they fix the xbox achievements for chult)

In essence they are as much gambling as BF2, but contrary to BF2 they are not nessassary to progress at all and an MMO will always be grindy, peoples know that, its the main goal of the game, grind til you achieve "character master race" unlike BF2 or any shooters where i just think "im going online to have a fun time, kick some HAMSTER for an hour or 2"

So to me those 2 games can't be compared...

dagambit

Destrowod I understand exactly what you are talking about because EA and Bungie which was one of my favorite Publishers/Devs for Halo are trying to rip off players. Cryptic is definitely not in that category as those two 2017 has been awful for them. Currently Chris Lee a representative from Hawaii is trying to bring into law a regulation of lootboxes in video games and those games shouldn't be sold to kids under 21. If this law is written and actually passed alot of popular games could lose there player base. 1 companies greed has put a focus on the gaming industry and exploiting kids. I am just waiting to see how Cryptic will handle if this law is actually passed.

Below is a link to Chris Lee video if you are interested in what he is proposing.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=5WxcGYvvgJo&t=2s

destrowod

Honestly tough, i am in favor of this law. Its what we need to stop the lootboxes infection wich is spreading into so many games. Its not just EA even tough there the poster boys for these shady practices. I am a huge player of Gears of War and lootboxes have been a pain in this game since release.

Halo 5 i literally got tired of opening lootboxes only to destroy cards to open more lootboxes... when all i wanted was some cool armor pieces to look better. It literally sucked 15-20 mins of my playtime everyday...

If some kind of law pass and ban them, well GOOD. Too bad for NW but ill count that as acceptable losses. Casuality of war lol.

We must get rid of lootboxes that are poluting AAA full retail price games.

omegarealities

And, thus the good stuff goes to only those can afford to buy it.

ecrana

omegarealities#7219 said:

And, thus the good stuff goes to only those can afford to buy it.

That's the truth right above.

You don't think getting rid of lootboxes in games is going to do much do you? Oh yes, gambling removed from the game. Now anything you had a chance to get from a box will be sold individually at a higher cost to make up for it. And items currently sold will see a price hike. Companies make their money any way players are willing to pay and this has always been a downhill battle since micro transactions made their way into gaming..

destrowod

Well in the case of Neverwinter being a free to play its a different breed. Since "macro" transactions (cause lets face it they ain't micro) is there way to make money. If we take into consideration a purple mount on the zen market is 3000 zen, then i guess an orange could be 6000 or maybe if we push it badly 10 000 zens. Would it be more expensive than what it is right now?

Peoples open lootboxes for legendary mounts mainly. All the rest is common to semi common. It wouldn't change the fact peoples have to play to earn AD and convert to zen, and a fair ammount of peoples would still buy stuff out of the market to advance there characters faster. They would make less money probably as lootboxes are a gambling addiction for some peoples but don't you think a fair ammount of players wouldn't just be happy to put that 10k zen on a legendary and be done with it? Or maybe they would even buy 2 or 3... There would still be a flow of money.

Lootboxes really are just the "easy solution". Design a couple cool items, put them in a lottery system, and peoples will keep buying til they get them even if 80% of the time they get junk. Selling individually would mean they would have to be more creative and work harder to make those $. Is this a bad thing? Not for me.

But if we want to be realistic, NW is a downloadable game... Even if the game would suddenly be targetted at 21+ due to lootboxes passing as gambling, everybody could still download the game anyway. To buy zen out with real money you have to have some form of account anyway (paypal, bank, credit card) so this is already targetted at adult in a way. I doubt it would change much...

Its not like a violent game sold in store where a AO rating can really impact its sales.

mordekai

I recall starting a thread on this subject about a year ago, mainly due to the large number of posts at the time talking about how people believed the RNG odds were fixed. Interestingly, those threads are fare fewer these days, but I still maintain that some sort of notice or disclaimer be put on the homepage along with a quarterly mass email reiterating that opening X lockboxes is no guarantee of winning.

The issue people are worried about is, as has been mentioned, the impact chasing the big win has on players. Not necessarily the argument over whether buying Zen with AD to buy keys to open lockboxes constitutes "gambling". Of course, if you are a grown adult, that HAMSTER is your personal choice, but when kids are playing its the impact that behaviour has on them that is the problem.
Gambling addiction doesn't discriminate based on the legality of the phrasing of the term.

The BBC recently did a show on one of their radio shows about how kids' lives can get truly HAMSTER up by chasing rewards on online games and the cash for currency for keys for rewards system was viewed as one of the most insidious ways of hooking young people into addictive behaviour patterns.

It is the parents responsibility to stop their kids from doing it, of course, but its also the game companies' moral imperative to make it as hard as possible for kids to do it in the first place, and put warnings that a) don't expect to win, and b) this behaviour can be unhealthy.
The UK government is currently looking at suspending the operating licenses of several online gambling sites, not because they believe gambling is bad... but because the companies involved are viewed as encouraging damaging behaviour without care or concern for their customers.

Just sayin...

froger

What I would want is something more specific than "a chance of winning". You have to remember you get a reward with every lockbox. The issue is many times it is not the desired reward. When I see a lockbox tip, I want to know the exact odds of each reward. I'd also like this for all the random packs that are offered. Because what good is knowing you'll get X random pack if you have no idea how often its contents drop. I have VIP for all the other benefits, and I have such bad luck with lockboxes that I refuse to spend cash on keys.

dagambit

froger#9967 said:

What I would want is something more specific than "a chance of winning". You have to remember you get a reward with every lockbox. The issue is many times it is not the desired reward. When I see a lockbox tip, I want to know the exact odds of each reward.

This is one of the ideas that is being brought up and China has already implemented if a game has loot boxes that players buy the publisher has to show the odds of receiving each reward. But Overwatch found a work around and offers free loot boxes when you buy micro transactions. This way they don't have to show the drop rate of the contents, but this is only for the Chinese version of the game. All we can do is say thank you to EA and Bungie for being so greedy with a Triple A title.

hifi74

arcanjo86 said:

armadeonx said:

I believe the difference may be that you can buy the keys for AD earned through playing the game. E.g. I never spend money on the game but I use one key per day from vip. If I wanted to buy 100 keys, I have enough AD to do that.

Yes that is a gamble but it's not with real money. F2P games do not 'require' the use of real cash for keys and that's probably how they get away with it.

you also can buy the keys with real money, and sometime the money you paid for those keys dont reflect on the rewards given by the lockboxes, basicly its gambling, on this way of thinking.

The difference being is that you don't HAVE to buy with real money. It is an option to buy with either in game currency or out of game currency. That the expenditure of out of game currency is not a requirement to an in game barrier that can be earned through actual game play is basically the 2 parts that give it a legal standing and workaround of sorts for the legality issues.

omegarealities

The problem with specific odds is that people will hold those as gospel. If something has the odds 1:100, they will count 100 and then claim they are getting cheated. It's the problem that they have with refinement now.

ltsmithneko

^-^ Neverwinter loot boxes(along with most games~) Are not considered gambling(atm) since your still given a reward even if it’s not the one you want you still gain something out of your loss... -w- Depends on if the rules changes in other places to follow that.