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Official: M13 Scourge Warlock Changes

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  • evemjevemj Posts: 71Member Arc User
    Perhaps a mechanic similar to Gushing Wound (allies who strike the target cause [...] ticking immediately) would help us perform a bit better.

    One hit could clear 2-3 secs of Creeping Death in one pop and it could have a 4-5 sec cooldown to allow us to build it back up.
    Curse Bite could have some similar effect with lesser curse.
    Or just have Creeping Death clear all stacks in one blow every 4 secs. Might have to review the damage if you try this one.

    You know, anything to pop the DoT quicker so we are somewhat helpful in shorter fights and that we aren't only shinning in longer battles (which we aren't afaik, considering how other classes are doing atm).

    Or go the easy road and do less ticks, but stronger; applying the damage over half the current duration (on all or most skills).
    Considering we have terrible cooldowns and slow animations, this shouldn't be so bad.
    (These suggestions don't take into account endgame as I'm far from being there. Please do chime in if these are just outrageous suggestions for endgame.)
  • darkan#3756 darkan Posts: 141Member Arc User
    how work lesser curse they are stack ? if i apply lesser curse with class feature all curse cunsume at same time apply curse with feat vengefull curse and at same time apply lesser curse with feat retenless curse dealt 4 ticks or dealt 4*3=12 ticks ?
  • etelgrinetelgrin Posts: 1,568Member Arc User
    edited February 2018
    An ease of use quality change would be just to allow Creeping Death proc from every SW thing, because in playing SW one of the most difficulties in performance is to lay Curse and remember to lay it every single time - something takes it off or it expires. Its also partly responsible for some doing less damage than expected along with vastly, vastly, underperforming Lesser Curse - its so bad we could live with it being non existent as well. Easy workaround for this is to make Lesser Curse be treated as a Warlocks Curse, most things tend to lay this uselessness lesser curse on targets on crit for instance.
    Post edited by etelgrin on

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  • werdandi#8366 werdandi Posts: 276Member Arc User
    edited February 2018
    I have been thinking to another tweaks that could be made in a near future:
    • make lesser curses stack and having an utility: the number of stacks would appear in the buff bar and it would consist in a self-empowering damage increase. The stacks would reset after a while.
    • Creeping death stack icon: currently we have some numbers in the CD icon in the buff bar. I was thinking to a mechanism that would allow us to deal better damage, when the figures are higher (it would require some quick reactive gameplay because the numbers are constantly changing). For example, if it is written "12", the next encounter would do 1,12x of the damage that was planned without any CD stacks.
  • duckntrollduckntroll Posts: 95Member Arc User
    etelgrin said:

    Its also partly responsible for some doing less damage than expected along with vastly, vastly, underperforming Lesser Curse - its so bad we could live with it being non existent as well.

    It's actually so bad we already live without it, even if it's one of the main designed way to go for the warlock ...

    etelgrin said:

    Easy workaround for this is to make Lesser Curse be treated as a Warlocks Curse

    Errrr... Not for power synergy!
    I agree that we would gain a lot if it get part of the Warlock Curse effects indeed! I'm not sure how much is needed through...
  • artifleurartifleur Posts: 641Member Arc User

    etelgrin said:

    Easy workaround for this is to make Lesser Curse be treated as a Warlocks Curse

    Errrr... Not for power synergy!
    I agree that we would gain a lot if it get part of the Warlock Curse effects indeed! I'm not sure how much is needed through...
    What about fusing lesser and warlock curse ? Give warlock curse the weak DoT of lesser curse, remove the 3-targets cap and replace all instances of lesser curse by warlock curse.

    That would give a nice boost to both damage and buff potential while reducing the hassle of having to apply/reapply warlock curse all the time.

    It would also streamline curse sinergies. Some require warlock curse, some other work with both types, it's such a mess at the moment.
  • patcherrkmpatcherrkm Posts: 127Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited February 2018
    Plz make the DOT component of Lesser Curse stack. It won't help much for instant wave clear, but would be a nice little damage bump. Also plz make lesser curse have all the advantages of Warlocks Curse. Thanks Devs for listening! :)
  • dragonsbitedragonsbite Posts: 42Member Arc User
    edited February 2018
    @balanced#2849 Critical Promise I still have a problem with. I don't understand why Killing Curse would hit harder then Critical Promise. They're both supposed to scale with Power/Buffs now. Killing curse is and Critical Promise is 40% weapon damage.

    I just don't understand it. This is frustrating trying to test this stuff. I used Tyrannical Curse 4 times vs 1 dummy and the combat log in game and the one that was created do NOT show Tyrannical curse. If this is just a Dummy problem, can we PLEASE FIX THE DUMMIES. If it isn't a dummy problem then this is a serious issue as quite a few abilities are working inconsistently. The next engagement I used Tyrannical Curse once and it does the 1 hit it should do as per the tooltip "Places a Tyrannical Curse on your target, dealing damage, Cursing them" etc. Tested it again and used it twice and it hit twice. Tested again and 1 out of 2 hit. This is a total of 4 hits in 9 casts. :#

    Hmm this doesn't match my observations:

    [12:21] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Tyrannical Curse deals 9544 (7357) Fire Damage to Target Dummy.<- Initial Cast

    [12:21] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Feytouched Weapon deals 878 (677) Psychic Damage to Target Dummy.<- Only proc of Feytouched

    [12:21] [Combat (Self)] Your Tyrannical Curse deals 276 (263) Necrotic Damage to Target Dummy.
    [12:21] [Combat (Self)] Your Tyrannical Curse deals 276 (263) Necrotic Damage to Target Dummy.
    [12:21] [Combat (Self)] Your Tyrannical Curse deals 276 (263) Necrotic Damage to Target Dummy.

    [12:21] [Combat (Self)] Your Tyrannical Curse deals 8173 (7784) Necrotic Damage to Target Dummy.
    [12:21] [Combat (Self)] Your Tyrannical Curse deals 8173 (7784) Necrotic Damage to Target Dummy.
    [12:21] [Combat (Self)] Your Tyrannical Curse deals 8173 (7784) Necrotic Damage to Target Dummy.

    This seems a bit odd though, each "spark" creates 2 points of damage. Repeated castings show this same pattern.

    Additional damage from Magistrate's Consideration seems to keep TC proccing as long as Magistrate's is going. Each time the "sparks" are proced from TC you get the 2 sets of damage.

    If Magistrate's doesn't proc, you get that 1 set of damage as per the example above (which aside from the little damage + large damage procs is the expected behaviour given the tooltip).

    (Tested on SH and Port N. dummies, behaviour is the same on both.)</p>
    I said vs a solo dummy. Not a group of dummies. Apples to apples buddy. Oh and might I add that the debuff of Tyrannical Curse visually (3 green skulls) always appears on the target. It's just inconsistent with applying the initial casts damage. And i've never gotten any subsequent dot damage to the initial target. I double check my results using Notepad++ just in case. Here's my log and with I believe 10 casts in which 5 hit.--> Combat log 18-2-10

    And Updated ACT's Neverwinter plugin again if anyone cares.--> Neverwinter 2-11-2018
    Post edited by dragonsbite on
  • designedbyrng#4319 designedbyrng Posts: 102Member Arc User


    I said vs a solo dummy.

    This happens with several powers if you aren't in combat and the power doesn't initiate combat and/or deal damage. Like... many powers. Does it still not log if you enter combat before hitting the dummy with it? Does it normally log on normal enemies if they are solo?
  • dragonsbitedragonsbite Posts: 42Member Arc User
    edited February 2018
    I made sure I was already in combat before casting it as I am aware this does happen. It was my first thought as try one it was my initial cast. But I scrolled thru the in game log and never saw any damage. So subsequent casts were after being in combat a few seconds or more. It's not that big of a deal. What i'm trying to show is the inconsistency of many abilities. But is it the dummy/dummies or not is my question.

    I'd have to find a non dummy solo target to test if it works correctly on them. Can't recall where to find any of those. But testing in a group you can't tell what's the initial cast. Or can you hm lemme check.

    Initial cast appears to be Tyrannical Curse,Pn.Gdd7eg,
    That is the only hit that shows that ID. It's the Initial casts hit.

    Subsequent hits appear to be Tyrannical Curse,Pn.O4xlqg1,
    These are the hits on the adds. The initial target does not get hit by this.

    The few I've checked so far vs non dummies the initial cast is working.
    Post edited by dragonsbite on
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,823Member Arc User

    I said vs a solo dummy. Not a group of dummies. Apples to apples buddy.

    Ok so headed to the Trade of Blades for single target:

    [16:59] [Combat (Self)] Your Tyrannical Curse deals 5881 (4711) Fire Damage to Target Dummy.

    Not a problem getting damage on the initial cast, as expected no subesquent procs. ie behaving as expected. Repeated castings all give the same outcome.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
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    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,823Member Arc User
    @dragonsbite I’ve looked over your log and I have to wonder if the problem isn’t in TC, but is rather some other interaction our builds don’t share.

    Because frankly looking at your log that’s the only conclusion I can reach. TC works fine for me single target (according to in game logs), regardless of if I use something before it or not. Looking through your logs I see a few Boon procs etc that we have in common, the stark difference I see is your Fury feats proccing. Which makes me wonder.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • dragonsbitedragonsbite Posts: 42Member Arc User
    edited February 2018
    And sure it could very well be some of the Fury procs. I'm looking at you Killing Curses for 0 damage maybe being the problem. /shrug

    So here's a shortened log, aka 1 encounter only. --> Combatlog_2018-02-14_06-00-00

    I cast Tyranical curse 3 times. Would have been 4 but I hit Gates of hell by accident. 2 of 3 Tyrannical Curses hit. The 1st one is the one that missed in this encounter. It was cast right before the first Dreadtheft at approx. 47:29.2.

    Now let's look at the inconsistency of Dreadtheft. It was cast 6 times. We know this by seeing Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Power.
    6x12=72 hits expected. I show 41 hits only. I checked this by searching for Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical.

    I can break it down by casts as follows. oh fyi I used your dummy in the Trade of Blades instead of my Usual at Caer Konig.

    Dreadtheft Cast 1
    18:02:13:23:47:29.3::Thom Manshoon Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Power,,-76.2544,0 <--(Note-this is the cast)

    18:02:13:23:47:29.4::Thom Manshoon 1Targetdummy],Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,,7514.98,4986.66
    18:02:13:23:47:29.9::Thom Manshoon 1Targetdummy],Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,,7005.33,4591.95
    MISSING HIT at 30.4
    18:02:13:23:47:30.9::Thom Manshoon 1Targetdummy],Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,Critical,19503.7,12339.1
    MISSING HIT at 31.4
    18:02:13:23:47:31.9::Thom Manshoon 1Targetdummy],Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,Critical,20065.2,12694.3
    18:02:13:23:47:32.4::Thom Manshoon 1Targetdummy],Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,Critical,19983.6,12642.7
    18:02:13:23:47:32.9::Thom Manshoon 1Targetdummy],Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,,8207.8,5192.69
    18:02:13:23:47:33.4::Thom Manshoon 1Targetdummy],Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,,7243.1,4582.37
    18:02:13:23:47:33.9::Thom Manshoon 1Targetdummy],Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,Critical,18938.1,11981.2
    MISSING HIT at 34.4
    18:02:13:23:47:34.9::Thom Manshoon 1Targetdummy],Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,Critical,20304.1,12845.4


    Dreadtheft Cast 2
    18:02:13:23:47:52.2::Thom Manshoon Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Power,,-76.2544,0 <--(Note-this is the cast)

    MISSING HIT at 52.2
    18:02:13:23:47:52.7::Thom Manshoon 1Targetdummy],Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,Critical,22587.8,11997.1
    MISSING HIT at 53.3
    18:02:13:23:47:53.8::Thom Manshoon 1Targetdummy],Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,Critical,24869.4,13208.9
    MISSING HIT at 54.3
    18:02:13:23:47:54.8::Thom Manshoon 1Targetdummy],Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,Critical,23823,12653.2
    MISSING HIT at 55.3
    18:02:13:23:47:55.8::Thom Manshoon 1Targetdummy],Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,,9872.87,5243.8
    MISSING HIT at 56.3
    18:02:13:23:47:56.8::Thom Manshoon 1Targetdummy],Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,Critical,23130.2,12285.2
    18:02:13:23:47:57.3::Thom Manshoon 1Targetdummy],Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,Critical,22191.2,11786.5
    18:02:13:23:47:57.7::Thom Manshoon 1Targetdummy],Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,,8782.2,4664.51


    Dreadtheft Cast 3
    18:02:13:23:48:15.9::Thom Manshoon Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Power,,-76.2544,0 <--(Note-this is the cast)

    MISSING HIT at 15.9
    MISSING HIT at 16.4
    MISSING HIT at 16.9
    18:02:13:23:48:17.4::Thom Manshoon 1Targetdummy],Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,Critical,23905,12696.7
    MISSING HIT at 17.9
    MISSING HIT at 18.4
    18:02:13:23:48:19.0::Thom Manshoon 1Targetdummy],Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,,10448,5549.3
    18:02:13:23:48:19.5::Thom Manshoon 1Targetdummy],Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,Critical,24772.2,13157.4
    18:02:13:23:48:20.0::Thom Manshoon 1Targetdummy],Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,Critical,27233.3,14464.5
    18:02:13:23:48:20.5::Thom Manshoon 1Targetdummy],Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,Critical,26658.1,14159
    18:02:13:23:48:21.0::Thom Manshoon 1Targetdummy],Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,,10355.2,5500
    18:02:13:23:48:21.4::Thom Manshoon 1Targetdummy],Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,,9469.51,5029.57


    Dreadtheft Cast 4
    18:02:13:23:48:42.0::Thom Manshoon Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Power,,-76.2544,0 <--(Note-this is the cast)

    18:02:13:23:48:42.0::Thom Manshoon 1Targetdummy],Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,,8436.79,5337.56
    18:02:13:23:48:42.5::Thom Manshoon 1Targetdummy],Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,Critical,19319.1,12222.3
    18:02:13:23:48:43.0::Thom Manshoon 1Targetdummy],Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,Critical,20918,13233.8
    MISSING HIT at 43.5
    18:02:13:23:48:44.1::Thom Manshoon 1Targetdummy],Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,Critical,19496.5,12334.5
    18:02:13:23:48:44.6::Thom Manshoon 1Targetdummy],Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,Critical,19280.1,12197.6
    18:02:13:23:48:45.1::Thom Manshoon 1Targetdummy],Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,,7898.96,4997.3
    18:02:13:23:48:45.6::Thom Manshoon 1Targetdummy],Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,,7195.59,4552.31
    18:02:13:23:48:46.1::Thom Manshoon 1Targetdummy],Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,Critical,21131.5,13368.9
    18:02:13:23:48:46.5::Thom Manshoon 1Targetdummy],Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,Critical,18942.5,11984
    18:02:13:23:48:47.1::Thom Manshoon 1Targetdummy],Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,,7224.24,4570.44
    18:02:13:23:48:47.6::Thom Manshoon 1Targetdummy],Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,Critical,18292.5,11572.8


    Dreadtheft Cast 5
    18:02:13:23:49:05.2::Thom Manshoon Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Power,,-76.2544,0 <--(Note-this is the cast)

    MISSING HIT at 5.2
    18:02:13:23:49:05.7::Thom Manshoon 1Targetdummy],Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,,7393.97,4677.82
    MISSING HIT at 6.2
    MISSING HIT at 6.7
    MISSING HIT at 7.2
    MISSING HIT at 7.9
    MISSING HIT at 8.2
    MISSING HIT at 8.7
    MISSING HIT at 9.2
    MISSING HIT at 9.7
    MISSING HIT at 10.2
    MISSING HIT at 10.7

    -NOTE-I hit the above Dreadtheft during this cast twice so it interrupted it. It should NOT be possible to do this.


    Dreadtheft Cast 6
    18:02:13:23:49:24.2::Thom Manshoon Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Power,,-76.2544,0 <--(Note-this is the cast)

    18:02:13:23:49:24.2::Thom Manshoon 1Targetdummy],Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,,9892.95,5254.47
    18:02:13:23:49:24.7::Thom Manshoon 1Targetdummy],Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,,10344.6,5494.35
    MISSING HIT at 25.2
    18:02:13:23:49:25.7::Thom Manshoon 1Targetdummy],Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,Critical,25273.6,13423.6
    MISSING HIT at 26.2
    18:02:13:23:49:26.7::Thom Manshoon 1Targetdummy],Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,Critical,21809.5,11583.7
    MISSING HIT at 27.2
    MISSING HIT at 27.7
    MISSING HIT at 28.2
    18:02:13:23:49:28.8::Thom Manshoon 1Targetdummy],Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,,9593.24,5095.29
    MISSING HIT at 29.2
    18:02:13:23:49:29.7::Thom Manshoon 1Targetdummy],Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,,9023.18,4792.51

    So is it a dummy/dummies causing the inconsistency or is it not the dummy/dummies. Again if it's not the dummy/dummies then we have a serious problem here and i'd like an answer to this question @balanced#2849 .

    Would be nice to get rid of the multiple zero damage hits from Killing Curse as below;

    18:02:13:23:47:30.7::Thom Manshoon 1,P[[email protected] Thom Manshoon [email protected]],,*,Target Dummy,C[248996 Entity_Targetdummy],Killing Curse,Pn.Qqypxx1,Physical,,0,0
    Post edited by dragonsbite on
  • polaris1986polaris1986 Posts: 302Member Arc User
    Healing is just an added benefit.


    1) Rigth. DC doesn't waste healing while playing buffer role.
    Templock lose a lot of DPS main his profit is healing, he loses more than DC. while right. DC may be a DPS-Healer-Buffer in one vial. Templock heals all the time when he fights and his buffs is more added benefit there.

    In party with DC doesn't need more healers. while templock is he is main buffer&dps (main healer DC) be allways worst than only one DC and main DPS/GWF/DD-SW/DD-HR/DD-tank. or main DC and support tank/GF.

    2) Right.DC make more DPS then Templock. + more powerfull buffs.

    In that case, a MOF should queue as healer as well, since a properly built MOF can heal a lot the party....
    A SW is primarly a dps, so a templock is a dps/support hybrid, not a healer.


    yeah in case of MoF it may be more buffer/dps/support i think it may be other party seat, not healer but stay have supporting role. like TR/CW/HR supp. build.

    templock is a dps/support hybrid, not a healer


    did you even playing it? its clear healer.

    If a templock does zero damage and just focus on heals, he is useless.


    HE CAN"T DO 0 DAMAGE WHILE DOES SOME HEAL. just can't. AS MORE DAMAGE YOU DID AS MORE HEAL PARTY HAD.
    If he a perfect DPS in temp. build he will be PERFECT healer. just absolutly perfect.
    DC/SW ~15
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  • schietindebuxschietindebux Posts: 4,226Member Arc User
    edited February 2018
    Let´s get our own "defense for offense". Lifesteal should buff my power and the one of my teammates, following some "leading heads" in this community this is no issue and from minor interest, arguinig about another topic in the bugsection atm.
    There are buffs ingame that spend offense/damage for defensive stats and vice versa (a bad design in my eyes).
    Aura of Courage(HP), Disciple of War and Steely defence(GWF DR) , Insignia like Shepards devotion (DR/deflect for power)

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1237857/sherped-devotion-insignia-lets-be-honest-is-unbalanced-in-combination-with-artificiers-persuation

    @balanced#2849 in the name of balance give us our own overperfoming aura that disbalances classes/game for the next upcoming mods, this time for the benefit of warlock (sarcasm of)
    etelgrin said:

    An ease of use quality change would be just to allow Creeping Death proc from every SW thing, because in playing SW one of the most difficulties in performance is to lay Curse and remember to lay it every single time - something takes it off or it expires. Its also partly responsible for some doing less damage than expected along with vastly, vastly, underperforming Lesser Curse - its so bad we could live with it being non existent as well. Easy workaround for this is to make Lesser Curse be treated as a Warlocks Curse, most things tend to lay this uselessness lesser curse on targets on crit for instance.

    Or simply give some feats a meaning, curse synergy or Curse consum... I do prefer Synergy by far since it´s instant, early hitting.
    Lesser curse will be from better use that way, like many proposals in this threat pointed at.

    Page 4: "Parting Blasphemy: if not already, it should scale with powers and buffs. Or give it a DR debuff effect."

    Page 7 @balanced#2849 : "So this one was a bit interesting. While I was fixing something with Soul Scorch, I actually thought it would cool to see it as a Curse Synergy (instead of a consume). I will say that it feels really good to just chain 5 Soul Scorches into an enemy, but it is also quite strong. Along with that, there is some gameplay around applying and removing curses, such as Parting Blasphemy and Deadly Curse. While these aren't currently the strongest parts of the Scourge Warlock kit, they do offer a more complex playstyle and I could see more interesting mechanics around curse consumption working well, if we were to change these.

    Page 10: " Rework Parting Blasphemy to deal damage when a Curse Synergy is activated"

    By that Lesser Curse might deal an instant debuff for 10% maybe.
    You can decide to run a buff/debuff setup going PB+PotnH , or a dps focussed one taking Killing Curse/MF at better gear.
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • espasbadfistespasbadfist Posts: 39Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    First of all a big "thank you" to @balanced#2849 for the reasoning and work that has been done so far. And also a big "thank you" to all the people that put so much effort in testing and thinking about ways to make the warlock a better choice for playing Neverwinter.

    After reading a lot of this thread (mostly all but i am not completly sure :smile: ) i think that most of the discussion is getting lost in small details but may not address the real important things. Let me try to explain: I have a character of each class in the game at level 70 and for me it feels as if every class has a kind of special flavour or "branding" or "theme", e.g paladin and cleric have "devine", hunter ranger has "nature", trickster has "stealth", guardian fighter has "shield", great weapon fighter has "unstoppable" and warlock has "curse".

    In my understanding the way to go for improving the warlock is to take a look what can be done better with the curse mechanic. I think there is a kind of order in power when it comes to curses: lesser curse, (hand of blight, deadly curse), hadars grasp/warlocks bargain/wrath's shadow, tyrannical curse. Beside that warlocks curse that is THE curse after all :smile: . Add "all consuming curse" as a kind of core mechanic and we are set.

    First i would suggest that every capstone of each paragon path gets a special meaning when it comes to targets that have a warlock curse on them, like you already did it with the templock capstone. For damnation this could mean that a target affected by warlocks curse takes 100% (or even more) more damage from soul puppet. Fury has creeping death and this is basically ok (indeed by this logic it even is already too good because it is also triggered by lesser curse).

    Then i would suggest to let it stack. For warlocks curse we have three shots each good for 20%-30% damage buff - why not put it on one single target for a total buff of 60%-90% coming near to things like destroyer stacks of GWF or shadow of demise on TR? Damage from lesser curse is rather lame - why not let it stack like up to 10 times for one target? A crit on hadars grasp, BoVA, dreadtheft, PoP, immolation spirits,... - fine add a stack of lesser curse. And most important let all curses stack upon tyrannical curse.

    For deadly curse this would mean you would also have up to three shots on single target, firing each time a stack of warlocks curse is applied. Parting blasphemy now would also fire each time a stack is removed, making it more relevant too.

    I would really like to see some feedback and discussion on this. Probably nothing that could be done until release of the new mod but as a kind of longterm adjustment, maybe for mod 13.5 or 14. Most important after all: Please get it consistent. The changes i suggested probably are much too powerfull on first sight but i think to improve things there should be a kind of vision what the warlock class is all about and in my understanding it is the curse mechanic. Make it consistent and somehow logical and the balancing of the whole class in comparison to other should be only a little fiddling on some constants in the source code from time to time :smile:
  • artifleurartifleur Posts: 641Member Arc User

    Ok so headed to the Trade of Blades for single target:

    [16:59] [Combat (Self)] Your Tyrannical Curse deals 5881 (4711) Fire Damage to Target Dummy.

    Not a problem getting damage on the initial cast, as expected no subesquent procs. ie behaving as expected. Repeated castings all give the same outcome.

    The trade of blades now is a PVP zone. It probably doesn't make a difference in this case but it's safer to use other dummies (dread ring, kaer conig, port nyanzaru, stronghold).
  • duckntrollduckntroll Posts: 95Member Arc User

    Luckily Templock will be a better support for mod 13

    "Better" yes.
    But how much better?
    As a META, as a GOOD, as a PASS or as a STILL UNDERPERFORMING?

    A Templock wanting to heal is a waste.

    Indeed pure healing is worthless once players reach ~10K, mainly due to the performance of DPS*Life Steal in front of incoming damages.

    What is really needed is protection, there are many, many ways to provide that protection, but not that many that can be decent, consistent with Templock and not a copy of other classes.

    Templock currently work with lots of DoT, so to make Templock good for protection: delay damages of all allies : Damage (received) over Time.
    • Amount: Limited to the Templock LifeSteal % (hence making very high LS score useful)
    • Delay: maybe something like 25/33% of the damage each 1/2 second (that's a way to save allies from one-shot-kill!)
    • Optional triggering condition : if the damage is over 20/15/10/5% of the Templock (or Ally) total health (to avoid overloading the server with useless attacks => those are already perfectly healed)
    With that change I think Templock can queue as "healers"!
  • darkan#3756 darkan Posts: 141Member Arc User
    edited February 2018

    First of all a big "thank you" to @balanced#2849 for the reasoning and work that has been done so far. And also a big "thank you" to all the people that put so much effort in testing and thinking about ways to make the warlock a better choice for playing Neverwinter.

    After reading a lot of this thread (mostly all but i am not completly sure :smile: ) i think that most of the discussion is getting lost in small details but may not address the real important things. Let me try to explain: I have a character of each class in the game at level 70 and for me it feels as if every class has a kind of special flavour or "branding" or "theme", e.g paladin and cleric have "devine", hunter ranger has "nature", trickster has "stealth", guardian fighter has "shield", great weapon fighter has "unstoppable" and warlock has "curse".

    In my understanding the way to go for improving the warlock is to take a look what can be done better with the curse mechanic. I think there is a kind of order in power when it comes to curses: lesser curse, (hand of blight, deadly curse), hadars grasp/warlocks bargain/wrath's shadow, tyrannical curse. Beside that warlocks curse that is THE curse after all :smile: . Add "all consuming curse" as a kind of core mechanic and we are set.

    First i would suggest that every capstone of each paragon path gets a special meaning when it comes to targets that have a warlock curse on them, like you already did it with the templock capstone. For damnation this could mean that a target affected by warlocks curse takes 100% (or even more) more damage from soul puppet. Fury has creeping death and this is basically ok (indeed by this logic it even is already too good because it is also triggered by lesser curse).

    Then i would suggest to let it stack. For warlocks curse we have three shots each good for 20%-30% damage buff - why not put it on one single target for a total buff of 60%-90% coming near to things like destroyer stacks of GWF or shadow of demise on TR? Damage from lesser curse is rather lame - why not let it stack like up to 10 times for one target? A crit on hadars grasp, BoVA, dreadtheft, PoP, immolation spirits,... - fine add a stack of lesser curse. And most important let all curses stack upon tyrannical curse.

    For deadly curse this would mean you would also have up to three shots on single target, firing each time a stack of warlocks curse is applied. Parting blasphemy now would also fire each time a stack is removed, making it more relevant too.

    I would really like to see some feedback and discussion on this. Probably nothing that could be done until release of the new mod but as a kind of longterm adjustment, maybe for mod 13.5 or 14. Most important after all: Please get it consistent. The changes i suggested probably are much too powerfull on first sight but i think to improve things there should be a kind of vision what the warlock class is all about and in my understanding it is the curse mechanic. Make it consistent and somehow logical and the balancing of the whole class in comparison to other should be only a little fiddling on some constants in the source code from time to time :smile:

    I partial agree make lesser curse, warlock bargain and tiranycal (but tiranycal own effect increase damage taken target in 25% more 10% not its too strong ) belong curse's and have effect increase damage at target affect in 10% but i dont see how interact parting blasphemy if only work remove warlock curse and only apply 3 warlock curse and stiil without many powers remove i think ist better remove curse cunsume and only exist curse synergy and for each path add a effect for example compounded soul also lesser curse increase damage taken 5% from you and if lesser curse staks at 10 times templock will do more damage (maybe not ist necesary if his roll as leader) and damnation may be decent dps and debuffer like tree description say but actually not do nothing
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,823Member Arc User
    artifleur said:

    The trade of blades now is a PVP zone. It probably doesn't make a difference in this case but it's safer to use other dummies (dread ring, kaer conig, port nyanzaru, stronghold).

    For clarity I also went to Caer Connig after my initial response and tested there with the same outcomes. Trade of Blades dummies work fine (the ones in the entry hall) for testing single target vs group effects that we were discussing.

    @dragonsbite I still haven't put a Fury spec together on preview to try testing, hopefully I will get around to it over the weekend. See if I can duplicate some of your results that way.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • dragonsbitedragonsbite Posts: 42Member Arc User

    artifleur said:

    The trade of blades now is a PVP zone. It probably doesn't make a difference in this case but it's safer to use other dummies (dread ring, kaer conig, port nyanzaru, stronghold).

    For clarity I also went to Caer Connig after my initial response and tested there with the same outcomes. Trade of Blades dummies work fine (the ones in the entry hall) for testing single target vs group effects that we were discussing.

    @dragonsbite I still haven't put a Fury spec together on preview to try testing, hopefully I will get around to it over the weekend. See if I can duplicate some of your results that way.
    I switched to soulbinder and center tree and hellbringer center tree and no boons for either of those. Same results. I also removed my black ice enchants. Still the same for dreadtheft missing hits and lesser curse missing hits. I think all Tryannical curses hit. But with it being inconsistent it could have just been my luck tonight.
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,823Member Arc User
    *nod*

    I will try and get on over the weekend, but I just did a full clean install of the game and now need to repatch Preview.

    Do you mean Killing Curse when you said Lesser Curse?
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • dragonsbitedragonsbite Posts: 42Member Arc User
    edited February 2018

    *nod*

    I will try and get on over the weekend, but I just did a full clean install of the game and now need to repatch Preview.

    Do you mean Killing Curse when you said Lesser Curse?

    I meant Lesser Curse. Killing Curses problem is those hits for 0 damage. Critical Promise still has missing hits. Check my last log and start from line 355 (47:45.4). And while we're at it let's also check Lesser Curse starting at line 394 (47:47.8).

    -NOTE- This is before todays patch.

    47:45.4::Thom Manshoon 1,,*,Target Dummy,Critical Promise,Pn.Lb8j9u,Physical,,2584.24,1920.25 (Critical Promise Hit)
    47:45.7::Thom Manshoon 1,,*,Target Dummy,Hellish Rebuke,Pn.C328io1,Physical,Critical,18653.7,13860.8 (A Critical starts the process)
    47:46.2::Thom Manshoon 1,,*,Target Dummy,Hellish Rebuke,Pn.C328io1,Physical,,11913,8852.12 (Met conditions?)
    Critical Promise Hit should be here, after the next hit after a critical which is the above line
    47:46.2::Thom Manshoon 1,Target Dummy,Pillar of Power,Pn.A2xccp1,Physical,Critical,10654.1,9110.1 (starts the process anew?)
    47:47.1::Thom Manshoon 1,,*,Target Dummy,Hellish Rebuke,Pn.C328io1,Physical,Critical,27637.1,20536 (Met conditions)
    47:47.3::Thom Manshoon 1,,*,Target Dummy,Critical Promise,Pn.Lb8j9u,Physical,,2675.69,1988.2 (Critical Promise Hit)
    47:47.8::Thom Manshoon 1,,,*,Target Dummy,,Lesser Curse,Pn.73q9w8,Physical,,3828.04,2844.47b> --[Lesser Curse]

    So it either missed a Hit or it can't proc from the 2nd Hellish Rebuke as that's actually Dot 2. If so then the Pillar Of Power starts the process and the Hellish Rebuke met the conditions. Which would make the above correct. Continuing on.

    47:48.1::Thom Manshoon 1,,*,Target Dummy,Pillar of Power,Pn.9ae2ih,Physical,Critical,14687,10913.4 (A Critical starts the process)
    47:48.1::Thom Manshoon 1,,,Target Dummy,Pillar of Power,Pn.A2xccp1,Physical,Critical,10896.9,9317.69 (Met conditions)
    47:48.3::Thom Manshoon 1,,*,Target Dummy,Critical Promise,Pn.Lb8j9u,Physical,,2421.48,1799.31 (Critical Promise Hit)

    The above one looks real good for Critical Promise. Continuing on.

    47:48.7::Thom Manshoon 1,,*,Target Dummy,Hellish Rebuke,Pn.C328io1,Physical,Critical,18993.3,14113.1 (Critical starts the process)
    47:49.2::Thom Manshoon 1,,*,Target Dummy,Hellish Rebuke,Pn.C328io1,Physical,Critical,27424.2,20377.9 (Met conditions)
    Critical Promise Hit should be here, after the next hit after a critical which is the above line
    If it can't start the process from Hellish Rebuke at 48.7 as it's Dot 2 then the above would start the process as that's the 1st crit.

    47:49.3 where's my Lesser curse? It's been 1.5 seconds and there were plenty of crits

    47:50.1::Thom Manshoon 1,,*,Target Dummy,Hellish Rebuke,Pn.C328io1,Physical,,10412.8,7737.34
    Dot 2 doesn't meet conditions?
    47:50.2::Thom Manshoon 1,Target Dummy,Pillar of Power,Pn.A2xccp1,Physical,Critical,9827.17,8402.99
    Critical Promise Hit should be here?
    47:50.8::Thom Manshoon 1,,,*,Target Dummy,,Lesser Curse,Pn.73q9w8,Physical,,3766.87,2799.02--[Lesser Curse]
    47:51.2::Thom Manshoon 1,Target Dummy,Pillar of Power,Pn.A2xccp1,Physical,,3611.3,3087.94
    Or here?
    47:51.6::Thom Manshoon 1,,*,Target Dummy,Hellish Rebuke,Pn.C328io1,Physical,,6469.26,4807.05
    Or here?
    47:52.1::Thom Manshoon 1,,*,Target Dummy,Tyrannical Curse,Pn.Gdd7eg,Physical,Critical,32399.8,19396.4

    47:52.3 where's my Lesser curse? It's been 1.5 seconds and the 6s should have restarted from the hit at 52.1

    47:52.4::Thom Manshoon 1,,*,Target Dummy,Critical Promise,Pn.Lb8j9u,Physical,,3236.79,1719.17

    Looks like the Tryannical Curse finally got Critical Promise to do it's damage. The above does not look correct to me.
    Done with Critical Promise. Continuing on with more Lesser Curses.

    47:52.7::Thom Manshoon 1,,,*,Target Dummy,,Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,Critical,22587.8,11997.1
    47:53.8::Thom Manshoon 1,,,*,Target Dummy,,Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,Critical,24869.4,13208.9
    47:53.8 where's my Lesser curse?
    47:54.8::Thom Manshoon 1,,,*,Target Dummy,,Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,Critical,23823,12653.2
    47:55.2::Thom Manshoon 1,,,Target Dummy,,Pillar of Power,Pn.A2xccp1,Physical,Critical,9884.11,8451.68
    47:55.3 where's my Lesser curse?
    47:56.8::Thom Manshoon 1,,,*,Target Dummy,,Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Physical,Critical,23130.2,12285.2
    47:56.8::Thom Manshoon 1,,,*,Target Dummy,,Lesser Curse,Pn.73q9w8,Physical,Critical,12987.3,6897.98--[Lesser Curse]

    We have exactly 6 seconds between the last 2 Lesser curses. Note that it should have been reapplied from the 50.2 hit to restart it's 6 second Dot at 50.8. It should also have been reapplied from the hits at 52.1, 52.3, 52.7, 53.8, 54.8 and 55.3

    I still think that "All Consuming Curse" Rank 4 is still only giving a 33% chance to proc Lesser Curse via a crit. Need to test todays patch.


    Post edited by dragonsbite on
  • dragonsbitedragonsbite Posts: 42Member Arc User
    edited February 2018
    OK new patch so I did a quick test. Well ok maybe not so quick. And FYI i'm back to using the dummy at Cear Konig.

    Lesser Curse appears to be proccing correctly. I'm guessing All Consuming Curse works now. Critical promise looks promising. Proccing off of all Dreadthefts. And so far all of my Dreadthefts are hitting as well. Or not. Cast 6 times and got 47 hits out of 72. Maybe this only happens when my finger stays on my left mouse button which is Hellish Rebuke. I'd rather it didn't work this way. But this is what causes the issue I have? Ok well that wasn't it. I retested this and I made sure not to use my mouse or my keyboard during the time Dreadtheft is going. This time in 4 casts I got 31 hits out of 48. So it's not me and my trigger finger. The Dreadtheft thing is disappointing.

    Looking thru the logs I can see that Pillar Of Power is not proccing Critical Promise whereas Killing Curse is.

    Pillar of Power,Pn.9ae2ih, The initial cast Does start step 1 of Critical Promise requirements. Looks like a lot of things can do step 2.
    Pillar of Power,Pn.A2xccp, The hits after the initial cast do NOT start step 1 of Critical Promise requirements. Killing Curse and Lesser Curse do proc off these hits.

    Check the last encounter for the above Combatlog_2018-02-17_01-00-00.Log

    The Dreadtheft stuff is in that log as well. Note that I did switch from 60% crit chance to 33% for a couple encounters. And All Consuming Curse was removed for 1 encounter. which is kinda obvious.
    Post edited by dragonsbite on
  • darkan#3756 darkan Posts: 141Member Arc User
    edited February 2018
    Well with new patch spirit fire still broke not increase with you power/buff appropriately and wrath claw reprsent less 3% from you damage soul puppet damage not increase with you power/buffs appropriately if even the hit infantile compensation do more damage than wrath claw @balanced#2849 plss can check that https://imgur.com/a/ypia0
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,823Member Arc User
    So I got Preview all repatched and did a single cast of Dreadtheft up at Caer-Konig to see what happened.

    ACT log:


    So Dreadtheft seems to have worked; there are 13 entries for it in the CombatLog, the first is it applying Dreadtheft,Pn.05iy7h,Power,,-83.8706,0, the rest are all damage entries.

    10:08:21.2 is the time for the first damage entry.

    Lesser Curse appears at
    10:08:22.7
    10:08:24.3
    10:08:25.8
    10:08:27.2
    10:08:28.8
    10:08:30.3
    10:08:31.7

    So the first application of LC has 4 tics, but the second one at 28.8 only has 3.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,823Member Arc User
    As to the missing Dreadtheft tics from dragonbite's earlier posts, we have a theory that the dummy is running out of HP and thus not taking the DT tics. (Caer-Konig dummy.)

    Testing with a 100-100 weapon seems to remove the loss of tics.

    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
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