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Official: M13 Scourge Warlock Changes

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  • tyrtallowtyrtallow Posts: 747Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Isn't that kind of change mostly beneficial to Hellbringer, though? I understand Hellish Rebuke's value to Fury because of No Pity, No Mercy and Creeping Death, but wouldn't it be better to work on class features and powers universal to both specializations instead?
    You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
  • eclipseblood#1326 eclipseblood Posts: 199Member Arc User
    Maybe have all consuming curse at rank 4 increase the damage taken by targets affected by lesser curse by 15% stacks with warlocks curse and tyrannical curse. But the increased damage doesnt interact with brutal or deadly curse. That could help our class as well since we're limited to 3 cursed targets to do our full damage if flames of empowerment isnt turned into a selfbuff. As is, All consuming curse isnt that good for temptation or damnation since they dont have creeping death with the changes to temptation that could help with trash mobs leading to the boss since warlocks curse damage buff is limited unlike the dc buff to the party itself so it could be a competitive buffers to groups
  • metalraro#7399 metalraro Posts: 38Member Arc User
    edited November 2017
    I have no more patience. if I continue with this game I have to change main character (which will cost me a lot ad) zen did not spend a penny for this change.
    these changes will not bring me back my dps to the level of a gwf that should not be the monster that it is.
    so goodbye or my sw or the neverwinter, one of the two (the will is to be of the neverwinter) I have to say goodbye.
    day 24 one of the two say goodbye

  • merhunesdagon1merhunesdagon1 Posts: 146Member Arc User
    edited November 2017
    tyrtallow said:

    Isn't that kind of change mostly beneficial to Hellbringer, though? I understand Hellish Rebuke's value to Fury because of No Pity, No Mercy and Creeping Death, but wouldn't it be better to work on class features and powers universal to both specializations instead?

    I think increasing the radius of PoP would be beneficial to not only hb or sw, but everybody. Also bringing back Tyrannical threat would be benefical to all of SW paragons as well as increasing encounters powers, Im not too big on numbers but I remember the beast that tyrannical threat used to be...
  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Posts: 844Member Arc User
    @balanced#2849

    The idea of increasing the radius of PoP is something worh considering, making it the same as Circle of Power (the paladin encounter) or a bit larger would be fantastic, hopefully you'll keep that in mind.

    Much like it has been mentioned before, cooldowns and cadting times need to be addressed as well. 2 classes in the game being able to reduce cd's shouldn't mean is okay SW has an issue in that regard, other classes have shorter cooldowns and superior dps so they have the advantage there whether the group has dc and/or pally or not.

    A way to help all SW specs could be changing debuffs to buffs, this of course means that class features need to be reworked as they're awfully underpowered or worthless for, this holds specially true of you compare them to those of class that actually have proper ones like GF, GWF and CW)

    As for DoTs (powers, effects and Creeping Death), reducing the amount of ticks andd increasing their damage + reducing the delay between them would prove to be considerable QoL change as it would improve our inferior aoe by a bit and in boss fights we'd do well better especially if it happens to be a melt group.
  • tyrtallowtyrtallow Posts: 747Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited November 2017
    You're thinking too small if you think we should ignore the presence of support/tank classes in group content and the importance of the current meta, especially considering that the whole point of being able to DPS freely in the first place is because there's a tank taking aggro for you.

    Hell, one of the main reasons we're in this mess in the first place is because the meta has moved on while SW powers/feats are more or less still operating at mod5-6ish effectiveness damage-wise, with tons of things don't scale (or work) and a lack of skill buff/debuff changes that take into consideration the massive jump in enemy HP relative to weapon damage since then. A cursory check into Lesser Curse, a supposed core warlock mechanic (as someone pointed out), should make that painfully obvious.
    Or you could simply check why dev changes are the way they are.

    Also suddenly shifting to non-group content to imply that lower cooldowns are superior by default doesn't make sense. GWFs basically just auto-attack things because they have the sheer +%damage buffs/debuffs to be able do so, for example. A Fury SW with those buffs would absolutely destroy content, even if SW cooldowns were longer.
    Post edited by tyrtallow on
    You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
  • tom#6998 tom Posts: 539Member Arc User

    bellkazi said:

    I'd like to know - how about to make some changes right now.
    Soul Bonding: Allies now deal 40 % ( temporary measure) increased damage to targets affected by your Warlock's Curse - will suffice.
    I do not see the point in SW.
    I can't wait a few months.

    Alright. lets look to this position via logic.

    Lets assume templocks Soul Bondings now grant allies and himself damage increase by 40% for targets affected by warlocks curse.

    Now try convince me, why someone would even bother play as fury build?
    Templocks Curse = 40% damage increase +
    Darkness: Now causes enemies to take 10% increased damage from you
    Add Aura of Despair: Now also causes enemies to take 5% increased damage

    Pillar of power buff + debuff.

    Damage wise it's on par or even beat fury warlock.
    On top seems darkness changes is just extra toward current effect. which reduce enemies dealt damage toward warlock when they got damaged by BoVa which also grant you 20% deflect.

    And also Soul bonding heal everyone around by dealt damage(life steal mechanic).


    This not help for Fury, neither damnation..
    someone would play fury because in a perfect world for SW fury will also get changes.

    40% buffing potential from feats would atleast make templock a very strong contender for the 2cnd support slot.
  • I'm all up for breaking the 2 DC 1 Tank ToNG meta. And that's exactly what we need. Running with templocks and MoFs and HAMSTER is fun. And that's what we all want. Fun.

    Also, dunno how much as this been discussed, but when exactly will this change come? Something like a 12c? M13?
  • jojo#2051 jojo Posts: 47Member Arc User

    I'm all up for breaking the 2 DC 1 Tank ToNG meta. And that's exactly what we need. Running with templocks and MoFs and HAMSTER is fun. And that's what we all want. Fun.

    Also, dunno how much as this been discussed, but when exactly will this change come? Something like a 12c? M13?

    2 dc + 1 tank meta is rather optimistic. most will even prefer 2 dc + 2 tank.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Posts: 4,051Member Arc User
    edited November 2017
    At current endcontent there is not much to dicuss about the meta OP-DC-DC... some guys discuss the current lack of challenge in Tong. They would not do so, if they run something else than a cheese-class with a cheese-build (they got told to run) or inside a cheese-party-combo. :)
    The 4th spot goes to GWF/Hunter/TR for dps.
    Atm warlock has to beg for the 5th spot vs dev-OP, CW-mof, supp/dps GF, or another dps like GWF, TR, Hunter, CW.
    From all those mentioned builds fitting in 5th spot, warlock is by far not the strongest.

    The only solution is to either take megabuffs away, to get back to a setup like tank-heal 3xdps, or ...
    to buff one tree from all classes (GWF, warlock, TR, Hunter, OP, GF) to fit the role of a supporter like DC does - that´s what we try to achieve with templock, or..
    force the queue to build rainbowparties (only one class allowed).

    I have 3 classes to run endcontent, 2 of those went downhill Warlock and GF.
    GF because he can´t compete as tank in Tong vs OP, who deals 16-25% of some classes dps with AoC. To say it in other words, there is obviuosly too much skill needed to succeed with this class in Tong as tank. All I see atm are those dps/buffer GF´s .... and lot´s of them are awefull tbh.
    It looks like OP can´t die, even having 15 stacks at 3. boss (incoming damage x 15!), his HP bar doesn´t move, wich looks quite strange to me.
    I witnessed completely skill- and clueless prot-OP´s, running an awefull setup (no AoC) in FBI without an active companion and they got through those bossfights. Atm OP looks like the easiest class to run with not much skill needed if at all?
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • werdandi#8366 werdandi Posts: 230Member Arc User

    At current endcontent there is not much to dicuss about the meta OP-DC-DC... some guys discuss the current lack of challenge in Tong. They would not do so, if they run something else than a cheese-class with a cheese-build (they got told to run) or inside a cheese-party-combo. :)
    The 4th spot goes to GWF/Hunter/TR for dps.
    Atm warlock has to beg for the 5th spot vs dev-OP, CW-mof, supp/dps GF, or another dps like GWF, TR, Hunter, CW.
    From all those mentioned builds fitting in 5th spot, warlock is by far not the strongest...

    Agree


    I have 3 classes to run endcontent, 2 of those went downhill Warlock and GF.
    GF because he can´t compete as tank in Tong vs OP, who deals 16-25% of some classes dps with AoC. To say it in other words, there is obviuosly too much skill needed to succeed with this class in Tong as tank. All I see atm are those dps/buffer GF´s .... and lot´s of them are awefull tbh.
    ..

    We all know that aura of courage don't benefit SWs too much, compared to other classes. It would be good if developers find a way to increase its action on SWs a little bit (e.g it could proc on other mechanisms, on DoTs...). Some classes are over-reliant on AoC, but SWs are really UNDER-reliant.

    And I don't really agree that GFs can't tank successfully. I have done plenty of Tong runs with GF-DC-DC-DPS-DPS combo and it worked fine. It is even better for SW ego, because there is no aura of courage buffing outrageously the overall damage % of the other classes!
    But it is true that we see "lfm tank OP AND buff GF" more often than "lfm OP OR GF tank".
  • werdandi#8366 werdandi Posts: 230Member Arc User
    edited November 2017
    -
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Posts: 4,051Member Arc User


    And I don't really agree that GFs can't tank successfully. I have done plenty of Tong runs with GF-DC-DC-DPS-DPS combo and it worked fine. It is even better for SW ego, because there is no aura of courage buffing outrageously the overall damage % of the other classes!
    But it is true that we see "lfm tank OP AND buff GF" more often than "lfm OP OR GF tank".

    Sure, I know there are pretty good GF tanks, and I also know that playing this class is far more challenging in endcontent than OP, running arround with 1 mio temp HP.
    Those GF´s are a minority but the mayority seems to run alt-GF´s, not build for tank, or simply a relict from alst mods when dps-tanks werer more viable.
    Maybe stuffed with marks and equip from their main to run Tong as a buffer/supporter, wich is ok, but not the destination of the GF-class.
  • jaime4312#3760 jaime4312 Posts: 844Member Arc User
    edited November 2017


    And I don't really agree that GFs can't tank successfully. I have done plenty of Tong runs with GF-DC-DC-DPS-DPS combo and it worked fine. It is even better for SW ego, because there is no aura of courage buffing outrageously the overall damage % of the other classes!
    But it is true that we see "lfm tank OP AND buff GF" more often than "lfm OP OR GF tank".

    Sure, I know there are pretty good GF tanks, and I also know that playing this class is far more challenging in endcontent than OP, running arround with 1 mio temp HP.
    Those GF´s are a minority but the mayority seems to run alt-GF´s, not build for tank, or simply a relict from alst mods when dps-tanks werer more viable.
    Maybe stuffed with marks and equip from their main to run Tong as a buffer/supporter, wich is ok, but not the destination of the GF-class.
    It's true that GF is far more challenging to tank. I have paladin friends who have got 5,9 m - 7m hp in t9g in full buffs groups, at that point and said by paladins themselves, tehy can switch to a dps encounter for a while then switch back to Templar's Wrath when needed.

    I'm considering to build a paladin in case GF dps gets nerfed to the ground due to pvp (have primal gear and guise of the wolf clan ready) as that's the only thing that gives GF a good chance to get into dungeon runs. Realistically, as things stand now, all GF has on OP atm is personal dps when specced as conqueror and if played correctly, OP is better at pretty much everything else and can still hit very hard, simply put, it has a better survability, party utility and dps ratio. If conqueror would get nerfed to the ground, I see no point in tac/protector as they're vastly inferior to OP and as such they'd slow down the group in comparison.

    @werdandi#8366

    I find your post contradictory, you think it is better for SW "ego" not to be dependent on AoC for overall dps but then you are okay with SW being very dependent on CD and OP for cooldown reduction as without them they're on the long side on top of powers having high casting times already.

    Cooldowns and casting times are one of the reasons other classes beat SW with and without DC/OP in the group.
  • tyrtallowtyrtallow Posts: 747Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited November 2017
    @jaime4312#3760
    Actually no, cooldowns are a factor for classes like CWs which have Spell Twisting but for classes like GWFs it's all about raw damage. Perhaps you'd like to check the popular opinion for which of these two classes people consider more OP. It's really the same thing for paths like the Trapper (cooldown reduction specialist) and Combat HRs (proc/buff-reliant), for example. The only path that gets the best of everything is the TR Master Infiltrator/Executioner with Saboteur feats.
    Ergo, cooldowns don't always mean superior and just because you have both cooldowns and damage buffs doesn't mean you're automatically going to be the top DPS class.
    That's why you look for other factors, like meta or the way the SW class itself plays.

    This argument is getting stupid. Are you sure we're playing the same class? The same class that has powers like Dreadtheft, a channeling power that partly mitigates the effect of cooldowns? Or Soul Scorch, an encounter power that doesn't actually have a cooldown?
    I feel like there's a disconnect here somewhere.
    Casting time, on the other hand, is indeed a severe issue.

    Aura of Courage doesn't need to benefit SWs more. It's a warrior-support class feature, as I already said. They either need to put more limitations on it or buff the caster counterpart, Aura of Wisdom.
    You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
  • bratleyraybratleyray Posts: 292Member Arc User
    > @tyrtallow said:
    > @jaime4312#3760
    > Actually no, cooldowns are a factor for classes like CWs which have Spell Twisting but for classes like GWFs it's all about raw damage. Perhaps you'd like to check the popular opinion for which of these two classes people consider more OP. It's really the same thing for paths like the Trapper (cooldown reduction specialist) and Combat HRs (proc/buff-reliant), for example. The only path that gets the best of everything is the TR Master Infiltrator/Executioner with Saboteur feats.
    > Ergo, cooldowns don't always mean superior and just because you have both cooldowns and damage buffs doesn't mean you're automatically going to be the top DPS class.
    > That's why you look for other factors, like meta or the way the SW class itself plays.
    >
    > This argument is getting stupid. Are you sure we're playing the same class? The same class that has powers like Dreadtheft, a channeling power that partly mitigates the effect of cooldowns? Or Soul Scorch, an encounter power that doesn't actually have a cooldown?
    > I feel like there's a disconnect here somewhere.
    > Casting time, on the other hand, is indeed a severe issue.
    >
    > Aura of Courage doesn't need to benefit SWs more. It's a warrior-support class feature, as I already said. They either need to put more limitations on it or buff the caster counterpart, Aura of Wisdom.

    I agree with you on cool down vs cast times. My lock is over 17k and my cool downs are never the issue... by the time the cast animation ends most of my cool downs have already reset. I typically use pop, fb, and kf and my cd is around 5 sec for each which is pretty good imo. I never need to wait for the cd. Its the casting time thats killer. Especially with all the new stuns that interupt them. Instant cast would be sweet, lol... then i can see cd becoming an issue. But that wont happen.
    HB Fury SW, DO DC, GF (Full Tank)



    [The Legendary Outlaws] (Guildhall 20)

  • bratleyraybratleyray Posts: 292Member Arc User
    > @bellkazi said:
    > I agree with you on cool down vs cast times. My lock is over 17k and my cool downs are never the issue... by the time the cast animation ends most of my cool downs have already reset.
    >
    > I highly recommend a visit to Hero’s Accord and PvP.

    On xbox, no heros accord yet. Pvp in its current state doesnt interest me. Which would require a different rotation as well meaning different cast times and different cool downs. And no companions to boost recovery.

    I still fail to see your point thou... pvp is a secondary concern as its not the main game type. And heros accord? Meaning what? I can run to9g now... my cool downs are even shorter... almost instant depending on group comp... my 5 sec cd average is during solo play....and i have over 40k power and 100% crit... maybe some need to look at their builds...
    HB Fury SW, DO DC, GF (Full Tank)



    [The Legendary Outlaws] (Guildhall 20)

  • werdandi#8366 werdandi Posts: 230Member Arc User
    edited November 2017



    @werdandi#8366

    I find your post contradictory, you think it is better for SW "ego" not to be dependent on AoC for overall dps but then you are okay with SW being very dependent on CD and OP for cooldown reduction as without them they're on the long side on top of powers having high casting times already.

    Cooldowns and casting times are one of the reasons other classes beat SW with and without DC/OP in the group.

    Don't get me wrong, I really like cooldown reduction from OPs (it is really something we need), and their other abilities (power share etc..).
    I was just saying that some other classes (e.g CWs) get most of their overall damage from of aura of courage %. So this kind of classes has an advantage when they run with an OP.
    When they don't run with an OP, my ego feels better just because they don't do as much damage :p

    And that's why I also asked developers to increase slightly the aura of courage contribution to SW damage (because this contribution is not very good for SWs). I am ok with other classes having more benefit from it, but for sake of SW rework, a small adjustment would be good.
  • metalraro#7399 metalraro Posts: 38Member Arc User
    edited November 2017
    guys, he did not come to listen to the community, he came to announce only what he wants to do with the sw, transform a poor healer into nothing more than that, then discuss about our deceased character and indicate solutions not solve nothing for here.
    he no hears
    simple like this

    Do you think he will solve the serious problem of time of casting of our abilities?
  • bratleyraybratleyray Posts: 292Member Arc User
    > @bellkazi said:
    > maybe some need to look at their builds...
    >
    > Maybe...
    > Your shortest run Spellplague Caverns, FBI, To9G?

    Run speed has nothing to do with sw cool downs or cast animation speed...but i will feed the hungry troll. Average run speeds between the three would be 20-30 minutes. The people i run with dont really care about run speed. We have fun... we clear content... we are BiS... not elitists.

    Listen, im not saying sw is fine where its at. The problem is many here complain about this and that without the full experience. How many people here crying for shorter cool downs are maxed out? How can those people ask for a decrease when they havent done everything they can to cut cool downs? That being said, im not implying that their opinion is irrelevant. Just biased. I know for a fact sw is under performing. We need a serious boost and rework. But i dont think adjusting cool downs is gonna help any one. Nor do i think the devs should be wasting valuable time on it. Lets get some real help before you cry wolf.
    HB Fury SW, DO DC, GF (Full Tank)



    [The Legendary Outlaws] (Guildhall 20)

  • tyrtallowtyrtallow Posts: 747Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited November 2017
    bellkazi said:


    I highly recommend a visit to Hero’s Accord and PvP.

    HAH! Funny you should mention PvP because in no other scenario is the clunkiness of SW casting time more debilitating than in PvP. Getting knocked back, dazed, stunned, or simply out-casted happens all the time to SWs in PvP because you have to wave your arms around like an idiot and pray that lag doesn't slow down server response time and prevent your attack from firing off even when you've already completed the stupid casting animation.

    And the problem with PvP is that our powers lack DAMAGE. I'm not sure why you'd think faster cooldown times are going to help when your powers do laughably low damage in PvP, and your main source of DPS actually comes from unmitigated damage effects like deflection thorns boons from feats, DoTs/multi-hit attacks and unique effect powers like Hellish Rebuke.

    Maybe you want Hadar's Grasp to have a lower cooldown so that enemies can ignore more of them because of the new CC resistance meta? Heh.


    You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
  • tyrtallowtyrtallow Posts: 747Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited November 2017
    bellkazi said:

    You say that 2 DC + OP solution to the problem long CD.
    2 DC + OP solve all problems.
    It is crutch.

    I said no such thing. You might want to re-read previous posts.

    The current meta simply favors cooldown reduction REGARDLESS of what setup you run as long as your party has a defender/tank and leader/healer. The multi-OP/DC setup is a completely different problem that has no place in this thread because it affects everyone and because fixing it will involve those two classes specifically.
    Nothing the devs are going to do for the SWs is going to affect that.
    You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
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