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Official Feedback Thread: Faster Campaign Progression for Alts

Hello fellow altaholics! We’ve known for a while it’s harder to run alts in Neverwinter than it should be. As some of you may know, we recently lowered the cost of the Campaign Completions in the Zen Market, but we wanted to do more.

With this next release, we are introducing “Signets of Patronage”: account-bound tokens, one for each campaign, that your main can make and hand to one of your alts. That alt can turn in the Signet to progress in the campaign at double speed!


Here are the details:
* If a character has finished a campaign, they can make a Signet of Patronage for that campaign.
* “Finished” doesn’t mean 100%; it varies by campaign, but basically means “has done all the important unlocks and has earned all the boons”.
* Making a Signet costs some campaign currency (typically about as much as an end-stage campaign task) plus 50,000 Astral Diamonds.
* The Signet is account-bound, so it can be given to any character on that account.
* The character you give it to can turn the Signet in, consuming it, but enabling that character to complete most campaign tasks at 1/2 price (and earning rep at x2 normal rate, if the campaign has rep).
* The exception to the 1/2 price is that those campaign tasks whose main purpose is to create items, like the Dragon Hoard Enchantments task in Tyranny of Dragons, are not discounted. That’s because we didn’t want to decrease the value of those items, and we didn’t want people to feel they had to make an alt with a Signet of Patronage just to create those items efficiently. Only a few tasks fall into this category, and they are generally not requirements for other tasks, so this exception won’t slow down alts who want to use a Signet of Patronage to progress more quickly through a campaign.
* On preview, you can see more details on each campaign: there are 2 new buttons in each campaign window, “Create” (which creates a Signet of Patronage) and “Use” (which consumes it).
* Note that (like campaign buyouts) the most recent campaigns (right now, we’re thinking the two most recent ones) won’t have this accelerator. As new campaigns come on line, older ones will get the Signets of Patronage.

Right now (on preview), the campaigns that have Signets of Patronage are:
The Maze Engine
Sharandar
Underdark
Dread Ring
Tyranny of Dragons
Storm King’s Thunder
Icewind Dale
The Cloaked Ascendancy (strictly speaking, this one shouldn’t be out yet under the “two most recent” policy, but we’re giving it to you early!)

Sorry for not including Elemental Evil, but it’s structured very differently from the other campaigns -- it’s not about repeating tasks (at least, not since its revamp), but instead you do each task once and then you’ve completed it. Since it’s built that way, accelerating it didn’t really make much sense. Also, it’s part of the process of getting to level 70, so most characters are going to need to do it anyway. If there’s a lot of demand for an EE Signet of Patronage we might be able to figure out some custom thing for EE, but for now it’s not part of the Patronage system.

We hope that Signets of Patronage will make it easier and more fun to have alts in Neverwinter!

Known Issues:
Signets of Patronage for Maze Engine, Underdark, and Cloaked Ascendancy can't be created.
Consuming a Dread Ring Signet of Patronage fails to give the proper discounts.
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Comments

  • kalina311kalina311 Posts: 796Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited September 9
    @rgutscheradev
    nice job posting this after hours bro shows you care and are working late.. players were really looking forward to these changes
    the keys that alts / mains making/ doing the accelerated campaigns i assume are character bound ? or account
    bound which people would love so they can make keys and hand them to which ever alt needs them ...also more alt friendly

    even to pass non bound purchased zen keys at the moment between alts is cumbersome due to how it auto goes into the usefull items bag and does not want to come out lol except with some mailing tricks ..can we maybe get a shared key ring or something in the banks to pass keys ?
  • xxxhansolxxxxxxhansolxxx Posts: 99Member Arc User
    @rgutscheradev

    Lucky you, you pulled the lucky straw ! Of all the feedback thread up now, yours is the only one unlikely to end up with a pitchforks bearing mobs !

    Joke aside, I really like this. One thing I'd like to clarify tho : can a main character create more than one Signet ?
  • arabaturarabatur Posts: 774Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    @rgutscheradev



    Lucky you, you pulled the lucky straw ! Of all the feedback thread up now, yours is the only one unlikely to end up with a pitchforks bearing mobs !



    Joke aside, I really like this. One thing I'd like to clarify tho : can a main character create more than one Signet ?

    This is almost identical to the STO way of doing campaigns, so yes a main can create any number of Signets. I just hope the price is lowered though as it seems rather high.

    @rgutscheradev -
    "has done all the important unlocks and has earned all the boons”
    Does this mean I would need to get all the boons from ToD and SKT (ie max 7th tier) or just up to the 5th tier?
    Definitely not an Arc User.
  • w00trandomsnoobiw00trandomsnoobi Posts: 317Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Any chance that the AD cost could be replaced with gold cost or raising the number oc campaign currencies needed?

    Can the alt that used the campaign accelerator create a token for another alt when she finishes the campaign?
  • beckylunaticbeckylunatic Posts: 14,036Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    arabatur said:

    Does this mean I would need to get all the boons from ToD and SKT (ie max 7th tier) or just up to the 5th tier?

    All means all, in this case 7.

    Can the alt that used the campaign accelerator create a token for another alt when she finishes the campaign?

    It's just a campaign task in the sidebar (where campaign stores can be accessed from the UI, if applicable). Any character done the required tasks would be eligible to make one. It's not like you pick a character that makes the tokens and that's it forever and you can't change it.
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  • beckylunaticbeckylunatic Posts: 14,036Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited September 9

    * The exception to the 1/2 price is that those campaign tasks whose main purpose is to create items, like the Dragon Hoard Enchantments task in Tyranny of Dragons, are not discounted. That’s because we didn’t want to decrease the value of those items, and we didn’t want people to feel they had to make an alt with a Signet of Patronage just to create those items efficiently. Only a few tasks fall into this category, and they are generally not requirements for other tasks, so this exception won’t slow down alts who want to use a Signet of Patronage to progress more quickly through a campaign.

    I'm assuming items includes keys and SH vouchers. Which I'm fairly ok with, I just want that clear for people hoping this means a key discount.

    * Making a Signet costs some campaign currency (typically about as much as an end-stage campaign task) plus 50,000 Astral Diamonds.

    I won't say much about the AD costs one way or the other. I'd personally rather it was some amount of gold, but it's livable.

    The campaign currency costs scale just as badly as the expectations for just how long it should take to slog through some of the more recent campaigns, because of just how much currency is required for tasks.

    A token for Sharandar or Dread Ring is nothing to make, but these campaigns are also honestly a breeze to just do (15 minutes a day of questing or less, for a mere month? sign me up), plus you get other rewards that contribute to character progression in the form of RP items. So what if Maze Engine takes an entire month (the horror) to do when you get a nice chuck of RP and some AD every day, plus all that delicious quest XP (and again, for a mere investment of minutes of your day)?

    But a token for SKT/SoMI requires the main character to spend so much more time in those zones, while provided with little incentive to have kept playing in that zone (none if not trying to maintain Sva chest unlocks), it doesn't really look like it results in any time savings at all. It just looks painful. Worse and worse the more alts you have.
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  • david#2060 david Posts: 70Member Arc User
    good move, too bad ill miss elemental evil.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Posts: 1,613Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited September 10
    This and the random queue is not it, IMO, we need account wide dungeon unlock. If I will like to play a class after running dungeons with, I will be more inclined to get the boons on, and unlock the key making task.
    And if I have the ability to run on more classes, good chance I'll run more dungeons, incentive to pug those, and the queue pop faster.

    I would have considered a token* as such if it would have enabled the campaign currency to drop from said dungeons (account wide - complete once, invest in this thing, and progress slowly on alts). Again this will encourage me to do the group content on the alts, with a pug queue incentive that can help said queue problem (incentive, not kill regular, and make only random). Help SH buildup for smaller guilds. And encourage more play time instead of repeatable dailies.

    Or a different approach, again dungeons are account unlock, and the added incentive for public queue (or for example random among what I have unlocked - with tiered choice or ban choice) is the campaign currency.

    Edit: *With 1 token needed for account and reasonable price.
    Post edited by micky1p00 on
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  • wisper2048wisper2048 Posts: 37Member Arc User
    macjae said:

    Having to spend roughly three weeks to gather the resources for a Signet of Patronage seems like an awful long time, resulting in very little net savings of your time.

    For example, for the Cloaked Ascendancy, the token costs 150 Secrets of the Many-Starred. You gain 28 from the weekly, and 4 per daily. Per week, you can thus get an assured 56 tokens. Thus, to get it as quickly as you possibly can, you need to do three weeklies and 17 dailies. The Storm King's Thunder token costs 100 Secrets of Ostoria. You can get up to 20 per week from doing the weeklies, and 4 per day from doing the dailies. So that takes two full weeks' worth of all dailies and weeklies from the four zones, plus another single weekly from one of the first three zones. That's a total of 93 quests.

    That feels like a lot of effort to save effort that doesn't really save much effort anyway.

    For my part, I gave up on getting my alts through some of those campaigns because it felt like too much of a chore. They've each still been somewhat advanced in them, which means the time spent getting the token would possibly/probably be longer than the time spent just advancing as is. And simultaneously, they are too far advanced for a campaign completion token to feel worthwhile either, which is why I was hoping this system would be a way to finally get to complete those campaigns on those characters, but with these prices, it doesn't feel like the time is justified.

    This math is funny. I guess they really do not want players in 12b. Except for refinement changes which are one step in right directiona and half-step back, this was only feature that I looked for. I guess someone is tasked at Cyrptic at making players to dislike the game. This feature looks very time consuming. Possibly it would be only useful to make better progress on support chars by spending more time on DPS one.

  • onodrainonodrain Posts: 146Member Arc User
    edited September 9
    I posted my feedback on the patch notes pages, as I did not see this page earlier.

    Overall, I love the basis for the system. For me, I would want to see it shave off 50% of the time needed to complete a campaign. Due to the campaign currency cost (especially SKT) it does not get close to this.

    The 50k AD per token is not bad if I just wanted one token and this was the only cost. But Neverwinter has many campaigns.
    I would need a significant number of tokens and 50k is way too much. 10k would be more in line, given the number of campaigns you must complete.

    Unfortunately, I am in a growing guild, so I have not hoarded campaign resources. I give the resources to my SH coffer. So I would have to grind a lot to get the campaign resources to buy these tokens.

    As it stands on test, the reward is not worth the effort.

    **I would love to know what the developer's intent is? Did they intend this to lower the time by 50%? 30%? 10%? If their intention was to lower the time by 10%, then this is a home run. If their intention was 30% or 50%, they missed the mark, IMHO.
  • someonediessomeonedies Posts: 628Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Please, reduce the overall amount of the campaign currency to make a token.
  • jonkocajonkoca Posts: 1,674Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Exactly what I was thinking. Make it a 100k, and drop the campaign currency.
    Jon koca 16k HR combat pathfinder (PC)
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Posts: 3,414Member Arc User
    If the token costs a lot of campaign currency, it would be a nice touch to apply it to all alts rather than having to remake it at the same cost for every character.

    I have 8 characters, all over 12k and they all completed all boons up to mod 9, only 1 completed 10 and now 5 have completed or near completed mod 11. I don't have the time or inclination to create 7 signets for STK...

    I also fully agree with the previous point about acct wide dungeon unlocks as we have with the Underdark campaign. That meta is far more user friendly than the new dungeons in 10+.


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  • oldbaldyoneoldbaldyone Posts: 1,579Member Arc User
    edited September 10
    Why does every good idea have to be so poorly implemented or come with such a steep cost?

    The refinement changes by themselves I think are excellent. Then they are tied to the bonding changes and a new ranks costing millions of AD, and requiring end game content. 1 step forward, 5 back.

    This change would be awesome, but heaven forbid the cost be reasonable. 1 step forward, 2 back.

    Strongholds....yay +. Guild membership cut way down and Strongholds extremely hard to level at first. ----

    Raids...woot +. 25 man raid, random teams, once per hour, must be at entrance, no progression, just a dps race. ----

    Post edited by oldbaldyone on
    5994311IRAQP.png
  • sky1stnamesky1stname Posts: 105Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    sorry for a noob question
    but how many times can u do this?
    I have 1 main
    2 alts
    Can i do these more than once ?
    So I can create "Signets of Patronage"
    for both my alts not just 1 alt ???
    thanks
  • ultimatefgt123ultimatefgt123 Posts: 43Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    Remove the campaign currency cost completely, it is self defeating.

    The token should be a reward for completing the campaign at no cost!!

    The aim was to make subsequent progression for Alts achievable. There is no other benefit from the token other than making the game more alt friendly.
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Posts: 3,414Member Arc User

    Remove the campaign currency cost completely, it is self defeating.



    The token should be a reward for completing the campaign at no cost!!



    The aim was to make subsequent progression for Alts achievable. There is no other benefit from the token other than making the game more alt friendly.

    I agree, whilst I appreciate the move to make the campaigns more alt-friendly, I don't see how expecting your main to grind through stuff even more through things they've completed assists in this goal.

    To be honest I don't even mind the alt-grind on most campaigns, I think it's part of the process, but STK definitely needs it.

    As others have said though, the biggest assist would be account wide dungeon unlocks once a players main has opened it. The boons are really not the issue - it's the dungeons.


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  • adinosiiadinosii Posts: 2,180Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited September 11

    I guess someone is tasked at Cyrptic at making players to dislike the game.

    The tin-foil hat conspiracy fans already "know" this is all in order to get people to move over to their new M:TG game.

    Well...seriously though... what is probably happening is the following:
    • The devs were instructed to come up with something that would increase the revenue - the easy solution was tge R12-R14 increase, forcing the "BiS" players to spend a considerable amount of Zen to get back to BiS status.
    • The devs see complaints (and have data) that some people do not get into queues in a timely manner. Instead of fixing the underlying problem, they came up with random queues as a way to "fix" the symptoms - not realizing why this approach is bound to fail.
    • The devs get complaints from people who cannot do the hardest content that there is too much gap between those with 3xR12 bonding and those without. Solution - reduce the gap by "nerfing" the bondings, while ignoring the uproar this will cause and the fact the the hardest content is "just right" for well-geared players right now.
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  • tekathurraitekathurrai Posts: 14Member Arc User
    @rgutscheradev any words on your thoughts regarding people's concern with the pricing/implementation of these tokens?

    * High campaign currency costs and AD
    * Only for 1 alt at a time
    * Doesn't save much time
  • plasticbatplasticbat Posts: 3,119Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited September 11


    I find SKT/SoMI such an ordeal that I haven't even finished the last two boons on what you'd call my main. I unlocked Svardborg later than most, and then my brain went "how many more days?" with regard to the other campaign tasks and I left. If that math is right and you'd have to play three weeks on a character that's done in order to save one week on a character that's not done... you're not doing us any favours here. A lot of the issues with this campaign are embedded in the quest design and environments... pretty as they are, SoMI especially is horrible to get around in.

    Yes, you nailed it. SoMI is the campaign that is way too painful to my main and my alts (although I think I finished that for my main, need to double check it later).

    The campaign currency portion could be the killer of this good feature.

    Making a Signet costs some campaign currency (typically about as much as an end-stage campaign task) plus 50,000 Astral Diamonds.
  • beckylunaticbeckylunatic Posts: 14,036Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    armadeonx said:

    Yeah actually, if it takes 3 weeks to gather the resources for the signet and that takes 50% off the time to complete - add 3 weeks to that 50% and you're breaking even on most of the campaigns.

    Just to contrast, the final boon currency cost in Sharandar totals roughly three days of daily quests plus two weekly quests. This puts us just a little shy on sparks and crescents, easily made up in multiple ways. If you're maximizing your efficiency here, you can earn this in a couple of hours including travel time.

    This is why I say that recent campaigns are MASSIVELY out of line with the older ones in how much time you're expected to spend on them. Weekly quests are designed to maximize some different currency than you earn from dailies instead of more of the same. Inefficiency is built in by sending you haring all over "our biggest map yet", as though this were a positive point. Quests that have somewhat overlapping objectives are offered on different days instead of the same day.

    If a campaign token costs roughly the same as any of the late stage campaign tasks, then it's very easy to earn for the campaigns that are a breeze anyway, and very demanding for the ones that need the most help.
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  • ravenskyaravenskya Posts: 1,665Member Arc User
    Good Idea: allowing us to make these for our alts

    Bad Idea: making it take just as long in a campaign we can't stand and have already suffered through to save time a tiny bit of time on a different character.
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  • danpio1217#3410 danpio1217 Posts: 19Member Arc User

    armadeonx said:

    To be honest I don't even mind the alt-grind on most campaigns, I think it's part of the process, but STK definitely needs it.

    Part of the problem also is that older campaigns have a veritable ton of catch-up mechanisms on top of involving less time to finish in the first place. Genie's Gifts, double currency events, reductions in Sharandar costs, Demon HE dailies in DR/IWD/ToD, Siege helps with ToD, they added the currency fishing thing to Simril.... The only problem I had with any of this old stuff was the Linu's Favors and Robert fixed that too (bless you, Robert). These are also campaigns that are flexible enough to allow a lot of quest grouping for weekend warriors, and progression from choosing to run more weeklies and fewer dailies.

    Underdark eventually finishes itself if you run Demon HEs in other campaign zones any time it's convenient. If it takes even a whole year to get the final boon, so what? I know, I know, your item level will be marginally inferior if you don't get it ASAP. Suck it up. But if you want to unlock Demogorgon and you've done that before on another character, you can. It's amazing.

    Maze Engine is completely reasonable. I've finished it ten times, and been stringing it out over 2xXP events on a few characters at a time.

    Chult and Cloaked Ascendancy (without trying to get any weapon set) are pretty reasonable for progressing taking your sweet time, but that does mean you get the dungeon opened on your alts when you bloody well get to it and not sooner. That's the part players slam their heads against the most. I need to figure out if the CA token can be acquired gradually just by doing weeklies or close.

    I find SKT/SoMI such an ordeal that I haven't even finished the last two boons on what you'd call my main. I unlocked Svardborg later than most, and then my brain went "how many more days?" with regard to the other campaign tasks and I left. If that math is right and you'd have to play three weeks on a character that's done in order to save one week on a character that's not done... you're not doing us any favours here. A lot of the issues with this campaign are embedded in the quest design and environments... pretty as they are, SoMI especially is horrible to get around in.

    Generally speaking, demand for large quantities of campaign currency means less for the SH coffer and less for crafting keys, neither of which is likely to sit well with a lot of folks.

    Edit: I also forgot to mention that older campaigns have bounty items you can exchange for currency, which I use a ton for accelerating progress on alts.

    ^^ All of this.
  • macjaemacjae Posts: 2,262Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    I don't think they should necessarily remove the campaign currency cost entirely, but they should make it so that we don't have to run the same campaigns for weeks after finishing them in order to accelerate them on an alt.

    Perhaps something along the following lines: For SKT and CA, you need to get some campaign currency, but not major amounts of things that are limited on a weekly basis, like Secrets of Ostoria (maybe 30-40 at most), Runic Fragments (maybe 30 at most) or Secrets of the Many-Starred (maybe 40).

    Obviously, the developers are interested in these things not making campaign completions obsolete either, so they can't be too effortless or cheap, but requiring about ~5 days' worth of work per token should be the limit, rather than essentially making some campaign tokens like SKT and CA doubly punishing; both for the campaign being longer, and the token taking longer to get because the campaign is longer. Because not only would that mean there's a delay before you get the token, it would also likely mean it would stretch out the time until you start and complete the campaign on an alt, because it would incentivize doing so. If you don't wait until you have the token ready, you are essentially reducing its value, while essentially running double duty on the same campaign.

    On the other hand, if the tokens became an unlock you could redeem indefinitely for free (with a 1-week creation time or something for subsequent tokens), a high initial cost could be justified.
  • mjonismjonis Posts: 140Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    So, I've not tested on Preview, I'm probably wrong on a lot of this, but:

    I have a "main" and 7 other ALTS (one for each class).
    So main completes CA, for example, but doesn't have "spare" curency (evidence of evil comes to mind) laying around. In order to make *one* token, I have to grind to get like 121 evidence of evil? Make *one* token that "halves" the cost for *one* character. Repeat grind again on main for #2, so on, and so forth?

    If so, then is that really "halving" the costs? (I've not done the math).

    I can't imagine SKT (haven't gotten to Chult yet, to be honest). I mean, it's better than nothing, but I'd like to either see:

    zero campaign currency required to make the token (leave the AD where it is or something)
    or
    If you're gonna make me grind some more, make it be account-wide token so it halves the cost for *that* campaign for all my characters.

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