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PvE Weapon Enchants Comparisons

rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,402 Arc User
edited November 14 in Guides
This comparison compares Transcendent Weapon Enchantments on most classes (except CW, because Sharp did it, and DC, because I'm lazy and I felt bad plagerizing Sylux's work).

This has been in development in a while and I'm pretty sure I did a lot of work that a lot of class mains already know. But, here's the data, in the event you wish to compare things for yourself.

Link:

Short Link:
https://goo.gl/ShMWHV

Long Link: (because Reddit automods, yo):

https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vSMcOXs47aWwYKr40p-4vPrCdVJV7Rt0roZQ03ehkvHya7wmd3eDAbpioVWlxiI2IN0Jhod62XbSVVX/pub


(Upcoming) Updates
I am holding off on updating due to the impending entity change (affects Duckonaplate). I am also waiting for all the Rocktober changes to hit preview before I calculate the likes of Smoke Bomb or Path of the Blade, and recalculate Lightning on single.
I have all the materials to test Unparalled enchants. However, I am waiting for the above changes to make my move. If you're actually reading this, there's not much of a difference between Trans and UP, so for the most part, the enchants' DPS increases from Trans to UP should be rather similar.



Shoutout to the people who edited and gave me feedback to make this comparison as accurate as I could:

@thefabricant
@michela123
@dupeks
@falkon84
@greyjay1
@micky1p00
@dairyzeus
Post edited by rjc9000 on
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Comments

  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,402 Arc User
    edited October 10
    I swear, you HRs love to make my life a living hell for testing weapon enchants.

    What's next?

    Will the TRs be looking for Duelist's Flurry bleed enchant procs?
    SWs wanting Soul Scorch DoT enchant procs?
    GWFs wanting Deep Gash enchant procs?
    GFs wanting Jagged Blade enchant procs?
    Post edited by rjc9000 on
  • masterogamasteroga Member Posts: 222 Arc User
    I think the gwf section needs work. It doesn't take into account increased attack speed from your at wills when using determination, or how some enchants don't benefit from many of your self buffs. Unless I missed those options somehow...
  • c3rb3r3c3rb3r3 Member Posts: 117 Arc User
    edited September 4
    Idk if Cryptic changed Flaming jam, however it got buffed on Preview (from 1% damage increase per stack to 1.5%, which means it's a 1.5% damage increase buff compared to live)

    And you should include Bronzewood Enchantment as it now deals Arcane damage and looks very appealing (with Unparralled one looking like one of the best Enchant)
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,402 Arc User

    *opens the guide*
    *first word she reads is: Drufti*
    *closes the guide*

    Ok, just a quick question: what about mod 12b? #rekt! #outdated

    I assure you, the intro had no jokes about the relationship between you and Sharp. There's quite a bit of wall of text you missed, unless you glossed over it for fear of more jokes.

    I will make an Unparalleled version some day, but for now, I'm XCOMmunicated and super lazy in getting moar UP stuff on preview. In theory, the UP versions should be the same as the Trans due to just slight increases... however, part of me thinks that one or more of them will be bugged. I would need to manually test to be sure.
    c3rb3r3 said:

    Idk if Cryptic changed Flaming jam, however it got buffed on Preview (from 1% damage increase per stack to 1.5%, which means it's a 1.5% damage increase buff compared to live)

    And you should include Bronzewood Enchantment as it now deals Arcane damage and looks very appealing (with Unparralled one looking like one of the best Enchant)

    The jam this is never going to get fixed because you can only have 3 stacks of Flaming on target at a time. If you attack too quickly, then you will always have hits which won't let the Flaming DoT run its pace.

    I'll consider adding Bronzewood to the list some day, but I don't think very highly of Bronzewood. It works as a sort of tweaked Feytouched: it has debuff (albeit a damage increasing debuff for Bronzewood), a % of weapon damage proc, and a damage buff.

    Comparatively to Feytouched, Bronzewood's % of weapon damage proc is stronger than the likes of Fey, but its damage buff is far weaker than Feytouched's.

    The Bronzewood buff's lengthy ICD is what makes it, in my eyes, a weaker Feytouched. It is highly likely encounter a time where you'll have a great opportunity to attack, but the Bronzewood buff is in cooldown. If you can account for this weakness, then by all means, Bronzewood is good, but I prefer a lot more consistency in my enchants.
    masteroga said:

    I think the gwf section needs work. It doesn't take into account increased attack speed from your at wills when using determination, or how some enchants don't benefit from many of your self buffs. Unless I missed those options somehow...

    All of the enchants benefit from GWF self buffs. Hidden Daggers (of which I actually featured in the guide), Battle Fury, Destroyer, Destroyer's Purpose, Destroyer's Purpose Unstoppable Encounter buff, marking debuffs, etc. That was the whole point of the Mod11 enchant change: so everything scales with buffs/debuffs/power/etc.

    And please, if it's no bother, check out the section after we derived the enchant formula. There's a reason why the formula (seemingly) doesn't account for buffs...

    There's no reason to account for double attack speed.

    The DPS Increase Formula compares the damage of the enchant proc(s) versus the damage of the ability. Unstoppable only influences your attack speed, but doesn't change your damage. You are still getting 1 enchant proc per hit of Sure Strike, regardless of whether or not you're in or out of Unstoppable.
  • c3rb3r3c3rb3r3 Member Posts: 117 Arc User
    edited September 8
    rjc9000 said:



    All of the enchants benefit from

    And something coming in mod 12b I will not talk about but seeming extremely powerful. Might talk about hit once I've got that thing. Will change the way you see some Enchants.
    Post edited by c3rb3r3 on
  • masterogamasteroga Member Posts: 222 Arc User
    Faster attacks mean flaming will deal less. Flaming is listed as top damage on sure strike when you select 3 stacks. Also the secondary lightning and bilethorn strikes don't get boosted by wrathful determination, battle fury and....something else that escapes my mind...daggers?
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,033 Arc User
    Great work, but it seems like your coefficients are missing a few decimal places. Yeah yeah ik Blame Sharp, but could you please fix this? :P
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,402 Arc User

    Great work, but it seems like your coefficients are missing a few decimal places. Yeah yeah ik Blame Sharp, but could you please fix this? :P

    Eventually (tm).
  • nihlocke#5890 nihlocke Member Posts: 26 Arc User
    edited September 20
    Thanks again for this marvellous piece of work.
    I just wanted to ask a question. Sorry if it has already been answered somewhere in that huge wall of text.
    What about Plaguefire? Judging by the tooltip it looks like a worse Flaming, but it has that juicy -45% Defense and -15% Power at 3 stacks on top of the (weaker than Flaming) dot. Also, it's blue fire. I'd swing a sword engulfed in blue flames all day long. But seriously, is there a reason why it isn't listed?
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,402 Arc User
    That question wasn't answered in the wall of text (hahahaha, I figured very few people would want to read that section, good thing I put the table of contents so you guys could skip to the "how to use" portion, and then select your class).

    The primary reason I didn't test Plague was because Plague is primarily used in PvE for its 3% damage increasing debuff per stack of Plaguefire (as per @michela123's testings). This is also why I exclude Frost, as Frost is primarily used for its debuff, rather than its % of damage procs. Terror gets an exception because its % of weapon damage is actually pretty good.

    And, as you've said yourself, Plague mostly ends up being a weaker Flaming in terms of % of weapon damage. Comparing Flaming to Plague, assuming you can get and keep 3 ticking stacks of Plague and Flaming on target, Plague's 9% debuff will loose to Flaming's high % of weapon damage.

    That being said, if your class benefits from Flaming and you're okay with dealing far less damage than if you used Flaming/a different enchant, then you can use Plaguefire.

    *By the way, the Flaming DoT slider represents the average amount of stacks that keep ticking on a target. I don't think Jamming is as huge of an issue I make it out to be, as not every class is a proc spammer like CW.

    But I prefer consistency in my DPS, so if you can control the Flaming DoT stacks, then it's great, but if you can't, then I'd pick something else.

  • nihlocke#5890 nihlocke Member Posts: 26 Arc User
    Thanks for the answer. I just noticed i was looking at the old Plaguefire tooltip, so that was a failure on my part.
    Still, that -9% damage resistance looks kind of interesting. While Plaguefire has less damage dealt on swing than Terror, it has 3% damage resistance reduction more than Terror. Flaming has "3% increased damage", so that's something completely different. Either way, wouldn't that -9% damage resistance (on top of all the "weak Flaming damage") sort of make Plaguefire viable, if not comparable to other enchants you listed? Or rather, what does -9% damage resistance even mean? Is that a +9% damage dealt for the whole party? Cause we're all into Sellswords for that nice +10% damage for the whole party that it brings to fights.
    Sorry if that's a lot of questions. Just wanna understand these buffs and debuffs better.
  • dupeksdupeks Member Posts: 1,468 Arc User
    edited September 20

    While Plaguefire has less damage dealt on swing than Terror, it has 3% damage resistance reduction more than Terror. Flaming has "3% increased damage", so that's something completely different.

    It's just a misleading tooltip, they mean the same thing.

    "% damage increased" is the new Mod12 terminology for "% damage resistance reduction" in this silly game engine, but they missed updating some of the tooltips. A more obscure "% defense shredded" used to work differently, but since the Mod 12 debuff rework also means the same thing as the other two.

    Debuffs are complicated these days, since the more you have, the less they are worth. So the first 9% debuff increases any damage done to the target (by anyone) by 9%. But as you start stacking the debuffs on, they start counting for less. So if you manage to get a sum of "100%" debuffs, in reality that will translated to 92% damage increased against the target (by anyone). And the more you have, the more penalty is applied.

    So the real use of a debuff enchant is if you think that increasing party damage by a small amount is better for the group than you personally providing more damage. That happens typically on support builds, especially if they are particularly good at quickly and consistently applying the debuffs.

    It should be noted that the damage mitigation provided by PF's power reduction as well as the slowing effect applied by frost are both also un-measurable in the traditional sense, but do provide a party with some measure of utility.
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,402 Arc User
    edited September 20
    I dunno if the way I write this is gonna get me sent to the shadow realm, but... let's just say that the ingame tooltips are not known for their quality writing. Most tooltips are either misleading or hilariously wrong.

    For example, the Flaming "damage increase" mentioned in the tooltip is actually a debuff which is placed on mobs (rather than a damage buff).

    The Archer HR capstone is also a debuff, which, combined with a bunch of other factors, is the reason why Archer HR is the laughingstock of the serious HR community.

    The only weapon enchantment I covered which is has a buff is Feytouched, which, at Trans, is 18% (multiplies your damage by 1.18 times).

    ___

    I feel that theh "buff versus debuff?" question would best be answered in a PvE thread by someone with better math qualifications than myself.

    But, I'll try to explain them to the best of my ability (if my math skills don't fail me harder than in my calculus class...).
    • A damage buff is loosely thought of as any power which is applied to players/teammates and increases your damage. Examples of these include the GF's Into the Fray, the HR's Longstrider Shot, or the GWF's Battle Fury.
    Damage buffs are multiplicative to other buffs and every other category in the damage formula, which makes a whole world of difference in terms of doing more damage.
    • A debuff is loosely categorized as any power which is applied to enemies and causes enemies to take more damage. Examples of these include the GF/GWF marking effects, CW Ray of Enfeeblement, TR's Wicked Reminder, or the debuff off the Con Artist (and the other sword trio members).
    Debuffs are additive to other debuffs, but multiplicative versus every other category

    The reason why the additive versus multiplicative thing is so important is because a category additive to itself (debuffs) will yield less damage than if said categories are buffs.

    As an example, we can compare a various damage increasing sources as a debuff versus as a buff.

    ---

    The formula for buffs and debuffs with damage is, in short:

    New Damage = Base Damage * (1+(Sum of Debuffs)) * ((Product of Buffs))

    Let's say that we have an attack which always deals 100 damage before buffs/debuffs. Then, let's say we are under the effects of a 30% buff and the enemy is under the effect of a 20% debuff. What's our new damage?

    New Damage =100 * (1+ (0.2) * (1+(0.3))
    New Damage =100 *(1.2) * (1.3)
    New Damage =100 * 1.56
    New Damage =156


    (Note that we add 1.0 to our buff source, since if we didn't, we would be multiplying by 0.3, which, in short, means you want to reduce your damage.)

    Okay, fine, that's our new damage. Now, let's say we wanted we wanted to throw in a 10% damage increasing source. Now, in this example, due to sloppy tooltip writing, we don't know if this is a buff or debuff. What is our damage if this thing is a buff versus debuff?

    If it's a debuff...

    New Damage =100 * (1+(0.2 + 0.1)) * (1+(0.3))
    New Damage =100 * (1.3) * (1.3)
    New Damage =100 * 1.69
    New Damage =169

    If it's a buff...

    New Damage =100 * (1+(0.2)) * ((1+0.3)*(1+0.1))
    New Damage =100 * (1.2) * (1.3*1.1)
    New Damage =100 * (1.2) * (1.43)
    New Damage =100 * (1.716)
    New Damage =171.6

    We get slightly more damage when our extra source is a buff, due to buffs multiplying versus their own category. Of course, this example only covers a few sources of buffs and debuffs, and doesn't even cover all parts of the damage formula. Yet, this small additive versus multiplicative difference has shaped the way the game is played.

    This is the reason why well played DCs are the best force multiplier in the game and also why spedrunners rekt things within the blink of an eye:

    Everyone is exploiting algebra for maximum damage.
    Post edited by rjc9000 on
  • dupeksdupeks Member Posts: 1,468 Arc User
    rjc9000 said:

    Of course, this example only covers a few sources of buffs and debuffs, and doesn't even cover all parts of the damafe formula. Yet, this small additive versus multiplicative difference has shaped the way the game is played.

    It's a good example, but the damafe formula is really much more covfefe.

    <3
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,402 Arc User
  • nihlocke#5890 nihlocke Member Posts: 26 Arc User
    Thanks for the explanation. That makes it all more clear. Having to do all this math really sucks, but we clearly need it if we want to shine in this game.
  • jayjay#5355 jayjay Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    So im a bit confused about what this bit means..

    d stands for the effectiveness of your attacks (debuff %) before applying the enchant.
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,402 Arc User
    edited September 27
    Good question.

    d is debuff %, or the total % of debuffs on target (I wrote it as effectiveness due to ACT logs).

    I'll give you an example of what you would input for d.

    So, let's say we place Enforced Threat (8% marking debuff), a Dancing Shield (20%), Swath of Destruction (20%), and three Wicked Reminder stacks on target (totals to 21%). Then you want to account for the Vorpal debuff (2%). What do we input for d?

    We add that up to:

    1+ Sum of Debuffs
    1+ (0.2 + 0.2 + 0.08 + 0.21)
    1.69

    1.69 is what you would input for d in that particular scenario (and, yes, the graphs do account for debuff diminishing returns, thank you to @sharpedge for that mathematical wizardry).

    We don't include Vorpal's debuff, since, well, d stands for the % total of debuff on target before adding in the enchant's debuff.

  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,033 Arc User
    rjc9000 said:

    Good question.

    d is debuff %, or the total % of debuffs on target (I wrote it as effectiveness due to ACT logs).

    I'll give you an example of what you would input for d.

    So, let's say we place Enforced Threat (8% marking debuff), a Dancing Shield (20%), Swath of Destruction (20%), and three Wicked Reminder stacks on target (totals to 21%). Then you want to account for the Vorpal debuff (2%). What do we input for d?

    We add that up to:

    1+ Sum of Debuffs
    1+ (0.2 + 0.2 + 0.08 + 0.21)
    1.69

    1.69 is what you would input for d in that particular scenario (and, yes, the graphs do account for debuff diminishing returns, thank you to @sharpedge for that mathematical wizardry).

    We don't include Vorpal's debuff, since, well, d stands for the % total of debuff on target before adding in the enchant's debuff.

    We are not amused.
  • jayjay#5355 jayjay Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    Thank you for the explanation. Bilethorn according to the charts would be beast on gwf, have to give it a try. Would anyone happen to have a ACT report on a typical gwf for this console pleb?
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,402 Arc User
    You checked the DPS Increase against your Critical chance, right (horizontal axis, aka x axis)?

    If you're a GWF with High Crit (80% or more), look to the DPS increases on the right side of the graph.

    At that amount of Crit chance, Bilethorn starts losing to the likes of Terror, Holy, and Flaming with multiple DoT stacks.

  • etelgrinetelgrin Member Posts: 1,310 Arc User
    Thanks for everyones effort into putting this guide up, its really great and tremendous amount of work!

    Pug Panther - PvP SW

    Youtube Channel
    Scourge Warlock Haven - Build Videos - PvP Content - Other Features.

    R.I.P
  • jazzfongjazzfong Member Posts: 1,046 Arc User
    edited September 29
    IMO Trans bronzewood or future unparalleled bronzewood should deserve a spot in the list, a personal damage buff and a team-wide debuff, more versatile than feytouched though lower uptime.
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,402 Arc User
    The original list of what I was testing was compiled back when Bronzewood was a debuff... which isn't anywhere as good as current Bronzewood.

    I am not planning to test Bronzewood at the moment because of transfer application stuff the stupid Bronzewood debuff stacking bug, which makes calculating stuff a pain to calculate. I will include Trans Bronzewood, Unparalleled Bronzewood, and all other of the tested UP enchants in a future update.
  • td904td904 Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    Nice charts. I run a SW soulbinder fury spec and have been using Vorpal for a long time. Its weird to see feytouched and others beating out vorpal for at wills. The damage calculations in this game seem needlessly complicated because of bugs and hidden interactions. Great work actually testing the numbers for us. I probably will now switched to dread.
  • nihlocke#5890 nihlocke Member Posts: 26 Arc User
    edited September 30
    After thinking way too much, i wanted to understand this Flaming jam thing, 'cause the damage increase looks way too attractive to let it go.
    So, we have this Flaming dot that stacks up to 3 times and deals damage every second, for 3 seconds. Every time we attack it applies a stack. After 3 attacks/procs, and thus stacks, it obviously can't get any more stacks.

    So what's the problem here?

    Is it that if we attack faster than 1 attack/second at 3 stacks it resets the dot timer back to 1 second every time, thus never ever dealing dot damage?

    Or is it that it only deals 2 stacks worth of damage instead of 3 (stacks dealing damage separately)?

    And in the first case, what classes could use Flaming properly?
  • nihlocke#5890 nihlocke Member Posts: 26 Arc User
    My comment got deleted somehow so here I am writing it again.

    After thinking way too much i wanted to understand this Flaming jam thing, 'cause that damage looks way too tasty to pass up.

    We have this Flaming enchanment which makes our attacks/spells apply a dot on the target, which deals damage every second for 3 seconds. This dot can stack up to three times, with each one of our attacks/procs applying a stack. That means up to 3 stacks, which can be applied in 3 attacks/procs.

    So what is this jam thing?

    Is it that if we attack faster than 1 attack per second we reset the whole dot's timer back to 1 second, thus never ever dealing the dot damage?

    Or is it that we only get less stacks worth of damage?

    In the first case, what classes could properly use Flaming?
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,402 Arc User
    Flaming so weird to explain, if you're confused by the way I explain it, then I don't blame you...

    If anyone wishes to/can explain the Flaming DoT mechanics better than I can, then by all means, please do!

    (Tasukete @sharpedge!!!)

    ----

    If you cap out on stacks, your follow up attacks will only be hitting for Flaming's initial weapon damage, which is 17% of weapon damage.

    17% of weapon damage is really weak, especially for a proc enchant.

    If your attacks are only effectively dealing 17% of weapon damage (sometimes 29% of weapon damage, due to one DoT stack ticking), then why not pick something else with better % of weapon damage (ex: Terror, Holy, Lightning)?

    Keep in mind that it's pretty easy to run into this situation, as most attacks already place 2-3 DoT stacks on target, or that many classes attack so rapidly that you'll cap stacks within a second.

    ---

    "Jam" is probably a poor name to give this situation, but I can't think of any better term for it.

    I'm certain I wrote this in the guide, but I called this situation "Jamming" because Flaming reminds me of various burst fire/marksman rifles in first person shooters, where you can only shoot the gun at a certain rate of fire.

    Fire too slowly and your damage output is outpaced by the easier to use automatic weapons. Fire too fast and the weapon will have some delays in fire, since you're pressing the trigger faster than the gun can fire. Fire it at just the right pace, and you have an accurate and deadly weapon which deletes people at all ranges.

    Similar idea to Flaming: if you attack too slowly, then your damage will be outpaced by people who don't need to wait for their damage. Attack too quickly, and you're damage output is not much better than some of the weaker enchants. Attack at just the right speed, and you "effectively" get the best % of weapon damage in the game.

    ---

    I personally can't get to grips with using Flaming optimally, as it's way too complicated for my tastes (and because most good teams rekt things within ~10-15 seconds, there's almost no time for DoT stacks to kick in).

    If you know you can use the Flaming enchant optimally, by all means, feel free to.

    Hope this belated explanation helps, Flaming is one of the few enchants that I just can't figure out to use it at its max potential...
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