What is the best group setup?

fingolfin

Hello there friends! I've started playing NW a year ago and just recently started to catch up with the top geared players. During the leveling and gearing processes I noticed that there are synergies between different classes that simply neglect the fact that you are undergeared and allows you to complete content that otherwise would be nightmare. The top 3 dungeons (MSP, FBI & To9G) still offers plenty of difficulties even to the best geared players and thus pushing them to go into the most fun part of this game, namely actual role playing, tactics and exploiting class synergy. So I'd very much like to hear what you think the ideal group setup should be.

Mine is:

Tactician GF (that's what I play)
Destroyer GWF
AC DC (cause it simply rock) pun intended
CW MOF renegade
Trapper HR or an OP

tom

AcDC/DODC/dpsGF/dpsOP/GWF

Brings the highest dps output imo. Altough an argument for a HR instead of GWF could be made cause of the insanely strong longstrider buff

fingolfin

> @tom#6998 said:
> AcDC/DODC/dpsGF/dpsOP/GWF
>
> Brings the highest dps output imo. Altough an argument for a HR instead of GWF could be made cause of the insanely strong longstrider buff
>
>

You are probably right that the suggested group will out the maximum dmg but damage isn't everything in this game. I'm aiming at balancing dmg and survivability plus placing enough buffs and debuffs to get the job done

micky1p00

The one I'm in.

(You didn't said top damage, you said the best)

thefiresidecat

tom#6998 said:

AcDC/DODC/dpsGF/dpsOP/GWF



Brings the highest dps output imo. Altough an argument for a HR instead of GWF could be made cause of the insanely strong longstrider buff

on my xbox hr I quite often outdps gwf who are higher il than me. Other hr's do the same. it isn't because of longstriders. I rarely use it. it doesn't fit with my playstyle. but i'd argue that trappers are as a rule, at least as strong as the gwf.

fingolfin

> @micky1p00 said:
> The one I'm in.
>
> (You didn't said top damage, you said the best)



I take it that your comment is probably sarcastic but it is true that some individuals stand out although that was not the purpose of this topic.

I am genuinely curious what other players like to experience in a group content and was hoping to gather some information or tactics I've missed out.

qexotic

fingolfin#9928 said:

Hello there friends! I've started playing NW a year ago and just recently started to catch up with the top geared players. During the leveling and gearing processes I noticed that there are synergies between different classes that simply neglect the fact that you are undergeared and allows you to complete content that otherwise would be nightmare. The top 3 dungeons (MSP, FBI & To9G) still offers plenty of difficulties even to the best geared players and thus pushing them to go into the most fun part of this game, namely actual role playing, tactics and exploiting class synergy. So I'd very much like to hear what you think the ideal group setup should be.



Mine is:



Tactician GF (that's what I play)

Destroyer GWF

AC DC (cause it simply rock) pun intended

CW MOF renegade

Trapper HR or an OP

The problem with this sort of thread/discussion is it leads to some classes being excluded from parties. Although it is not the intention of the discussion, it is often the inevitable outcome. By talking about and listing the 'ideal group', other players read this as the 'only possible/workable' group/party resulting in any classes not appearing getting excluded. For example, so far in this thread, no mention has been made of Trickster Rogues and Scourge Warlocks. People enjoy playing these from a role playing point of view but if they are deemed to not be 'ideal' party members they will find it hard to get into dungeons as other players will dismiss them from selection as they are not 'ideal'. Hopefully, not such a problem in Alliance/Guild parties but in PUG groups this becomes the rule rather than the exception.

So please be careful how you proceed and try to not to exclude any classes

oria1

In my opinion and experience, 2 DC, pally, MoF and a dps of your choice is good, that group has the max buff / debuff potential combo including reducing damage for survivability but other classes can do well if you change the parameters a bit. A templock what lacks in buffs (the class can still buff/debuff/heal and dps) can deliver with dps so the time completion isn't that much different. A GF can have huge dps impact if the spec is right.

But what's important to understand is that, not every players does right what their class job/role requires them to do. So I would say its far more important to have good players that know their class than have a bad player in a "desired" class. By saying bad it can mean either bad gear/skill choices or bad playstyle in general, not being able to adapt in a given situation etc etc.

I'm sure we all seen bad MoF or bad DCs or bad any class to be honest, with totally wrong skill set, that they think just because they are there things will just happen.

fingolfin

@qexotic and @oria1

I agree with you both that there are no bad classes just bad players. I hope ppl don't get this discussion wrong and end up excluding some classes from group content. On the other hand it might lead to the birth of new builds and rotations.

For example I've noticed that almost no GWF uses Battle Fury 'cause in thair words it take the slot of something more useful and leads to an overall loss of dps. But combining BF with the GFs tactician path cap stone results in almost if not permanent daily for the whole party and thus permanent Slam and surprise - the GWF end up doing more dmg plus the whole party is doing more dmg.

This is the sort of things i' m interested in and hope ppl to comment on. Non trivial and not obvious synergy between different classes that helps the whole party.

tom

> @fingolfin#9928 said:
> > @tom#6998 said:
> > AcDC/DODC/dpsGF/dpsOP/GWF
> >
> > Brings the highest dps output imo. Altough an argument for a HR instead of GWF could be made cause of the insanely strong longstrider buff
> >
> >
>
> You are probably right that the suggested group will out the maximum dmg but damage isn't everything in this game. I'm aiming at balancing dmg and survivability plus placing enough buffs and debuffs to get the job done

Well the survivability with 2x dc and gf/op is more then enough for the content we have even if both tanks focus on dps/buffing. Ofc the best comp can be different for each individual dungeon but atleast for FBI im pretty confident that this comp is optimal.

dairyzeus

I'm with tom in thinking that if you're looking for the truly optimal group, then you're looking for:

DPS GF, DPS OP, Max power share AC DC, DPS DO DC, and GWF or HR


However, any group with a GF, OP, and AC DC will do extremely well. You can easily fill the DO slot with other forms of buffs like a templock or MoF CW. The DPS slot can really be filled by any DPS class, it's just that GWF and HR are a bit above the other options currently.

This game is all about stacking buffs, I think the optimal group outlined above does it the best, but there are tons of other comps that can do nearly as well.

clericalist

If you are talking about speed running, I don't know, but its safe to assume most players are not speed runners, so saying the ideal group is specifically X, Y, Z is not important in the game for most.

The ideal group is the one where the players get along, know their limitations and the limitations of the others (healer cannot heal you forever if you stand on red forever, dps should not be expected all the time to kill everything in one rotation, tanks are not immortal, etc). Saying "ty" after the dungeon is done (or even when you could not do it), discussing new strategies when things have gone wrong instead of pointing fingers and kicking players, that is the ideal group for me.

I don't want to sound too lofty however, so the high end dungeons will require a 1 tank, 1 healer, 3 dps most of the times, but it does not always have to be GF for tank, DC for healing and the usual favourites for dps. Each player should have at least party buffing feature slotted, caring only to win the paingiver prize is not ideal. If you understand how the boss works, and don't do stupid things like ignoring the flaming floor of the dreadnaught in Spellplague, then you should be fine, then you don't need to find the min maxed brute force dps solution to every problem.

dupeks

As has been said, most important is that you have players who know what they are doing, know their roles, and understand the dungeon / mechanics well.

Beyond that, many different combinations are viable. The content is hard, but it's not so hard that you need to have a perfect party to beat any of it.

If we're talking speedruns, you often see:
AC DC (power share, buffs)
DO DC (buffs, debuffs)
Prot-OP (power share, Aura of Courage)
Conq GF (buffs, debuffs) or HR (buffs, debuffs) or SW (buffs, debuffs)
some DPS or DPS/buff hybrid (can be GWF, HR, CW, or TR)

oria1

In mod 12 with the introduction of diminishing returns on debuffs and debuff companions losing their multiplicative status (which was the major change btw) the total increase in damage took a small hit from above said classes. The formula as we all know is
Total_Damage = (Base_damage * (Buff1*buff2*...buff-x)) * (dbf1+dbf2+...dbf-x). Parenthesis are not needed but I use them to show the order of execution and to make this a bit more clear.

Now since in the past, the companions debuff and enchantment debuff used to double when you were able to get to the 200% cap, a team could easily reach a certain value of effectiveness without the need of a cw to add extra, but now since they became additive the buffs took a hit too as the value of the debuff of companions dropped dramatically

In the past you could have a dancing shield and 4 sellswords and frost and plague and 1 black heart and the debuff just from those would be instead of
(0.20 +0.1+0.1+0.1+0.1) companions +0.1 frost +0.09 plague +0.15 black heart = 0.94 or 94% debuff

it was (0.4+0.2+0.2+0.2+0.2) companions +0.2 frost +0.18 plague +0.3 artifact = 1.88 or 188%

So in mod 11b if you had 400% buff multiplied by 188% you would get a total 1152% increase in damage. Now you only get
400% * 94% = 776% (talking only companions and enchants and 1 artifact) We can factor also debuff skills etc but those stayed intact.

So the buffing now, since the "dream team" lost the multiplicative (or doubled) debuffs, took a hit that can be regained in my opinion by a MoF cw. I made a small chart a couple of months ago as a request from a friend on ps4 that shows the buff / debuff capabilities for various group setups. It doesn't take under consideration the diminishing values but I can tell you, in the runs I have done, I can keep the party at the 300% range (with diminishing applied) in ACT (200% real debuff). while I've seen most parties without a mof being at 170% (70% read debuff) with very few spikes of 200%.


Please correct me if you see anything wrong somewhere, as I'm not after being right but I care more about the truth.
Note : I will expand this to include other classes too like SW and please remember that I don't take under consideration the power sharing, combat advantage and dps a class can bring as those cant be quantified easy. But in spreadsheet I can adjust them as a damage % so we can play around if you like under some assumptions.

Some info about this
In the dps hit I assume 1 single 100k hit how much it will get increased by buffs and then by debuffs.
Companions have a fixed value of 50% debuff and are added to every group separately in the debuff column.

and some notes:
1. I only look at this from the prospective of pure buff / debuff. We can add factors like the dps of a gf, pally or cw but to my experience not all (not even the most) GFs or pallys are dps and the above examples need them to be in dps build while here, I calculate ONLY the buff/debuff values.
2. It doesn't take power share as factor but I can include it if someone can tell me how much of a % of damage it is. you will find its very hard to come with a number as not all clerics or pallys give the same amount. Power share as damage buff will also get multiplied by debuffs too.
3. Its a generalizing chart that doesn't reflect the real performance in a run. Not all MoFs or clerics or pallys build and play at their best though for some classes its easier than others.
4. I assigned chaotic fury a 10% buff value and not 30% since its on 1/3rd of the time, to keep it as average.




And a shameless self promotion :P A typical run mod 12 with some friends. All good players but the group wasn't build for max output but can simulate more real game situations and not ideal.

micky1p00

oria1 said:

In mod 12 with the introduction of diminishing returns on debuffs and debuff companions losing their multiplicative status (which was the major change btw) the total increase in damage took a small hit from above said classes. The formula as we all know is
Total_Damage = (Base_damage * (Buff1*buff2*...buff-x)) * (dbf1+dbf2+...dbf-x). Parenthesis are not needed but I use them to show the order of execution and to make this a bit more clear.

Now since in the past, the companions debuff and enchantment debuff used to multiply, a team could easily reach a certain value of effectiveness without the need of a cw to add extra, but now since they became additive the buffs took a hit too as the value of the debuff of companions dropped dramatically

In the past you could have a dancing shield and 4 sellswords and frost and plague andf 1 black heart and the debuff just from those would be
0.20 *0.1*.0.1*.01*0.1*0.1*0.09*0.15 = 2.41 or 141% debuff while now is only 94%.

This shouldn't be multiplied. Those are debuffs.

oria1 said:

So in mod 11b if you had 400% buff multiplied by 141% you would get a total 964% increase in damage. Now you only get
400% * 94% = 776% (talking only companions and enchants and 1 artifact) We can factor also debuff skills etc but those stayed intact.

So the buffing now, since the "dream team" lost the multiplicative debuffs, took a hit that can be regained in my opinion by a MoF cw. I made a small chart a couple of months ago as a request from a friend on ps4 that shows the buff / debuff capabilities for various group setups. It doesn't take under consideration the diminishing values but I can tell you, in the runs I have done, I can keep the party at the 300% range (with diminishing applied) in ACT (200% real debuff). while I've seen most parties without a mof being at 170% (70% read debuff) with very few spikes of 200%.

Debuffs were never multiplicative. You just wrote the formula above. The difference was that those were added separately and as such weren't bound to the cap.

ACT Is effectivness, it's

1 + f(debuff) (just terminology, but I don't think 'real' is a good fit here, effectivness is normally used)

MoF took the same diminishing returns as those companions now have.
Companions were addition to the group, and now it's a consideration of debuff companion or straight damage buff (Arcons, Dino, siege, for example).
Same way as a now it's consideration of a direct buff class vs a debuff like MoF or direct DPS.

oria1 said:

Please correct me if you see anything wrong somewhere, as I'm not after being right but I care more about the truth.
Note : I will expand this to include other classes too like SW and please remember that I don't take under consideration the power sharing, combat advantage and dps a class can bring as those cant be quantified easy. But in spreadsheet I can adjust them as a damage % so we can play around if you like under some assumptions.

Some info about this
1. I only look at this from the prospective of pure buff / debuff. We can add factors like the dps of a gf, pally or cw but to my experience not all GFs or pallys are dps and the above examples need them to be in dps build while I calculate ONLY the buff/debuff values.
2. It doesn't take power share as factor but I can include it if someone can tell me how much of a % of damage it is. you will find its very hard to come with a number as not all clerics or pallys give the same amount. Power share as damage buff will also get multiplied by debuffs too.
3. Its a generalizing chart that doesn't reflect the real performance in a run. Not all MoFs or clerics or pallys build and play at their best though for some classes its easier than others.
4. I assigned chaotic fury a 10% buff value and not 30% since its on 1/3rd of the time, to keep it as average.




And a shameless self promotion :P A typical run mod 12 with some friends. All good players but the group wasn't build for max output but can simulate more real game situations and not ideal.

The Chart:
1. Mof debuff doesn't add up, Why 1.04 and not 0.84 ?
2. You didn't add the DR to debuffs. You wrote that you didn't, but I don't see why... It's simple to add to that excel
3. Power share is looking conservatively about 50% dps increase. (50k origin + 50k from share) usually it's higher, for a range of 60k base and 150k after share. So about 150% damage increase
4. CA is not a buff nor debuff, any dps can provide CA for themselves and can be considered 100% with any party composition.
5. IIRC, Aura of courage is typically about 20% (can be considered as buff)

oria1

I did change the post, I was thinking of something else and you can see the changes now, sorry for the confusion.
You might want to re read it please. and I 'll wait for your comments again.

Also I will add the values you said and will post the changes about the power share

dupeks

oria1 said:

In mod 12 with the introduction of diminishing returns on debuffs and debuff companions losing their multiplicative status (which was the major change btw) the total increase in damage took a small hit from above said classes. The formula as we all know is
Total_Damage = (Base_damage * (Buff1*buff2*...buff-x)) * (dbf1+dbf2+...dbf-x). Parenthesis are not needed but I use them to show the order of execution and to make this a bit more clear.

Now since in the past, the companions debuff and enchantment debuff used to multiply, a team could easily reach a certain value of effectiveness without the need of a cw to add extra, but now since they became additive the buffs took a hit too as the value of the debuff of companions dropped dramatically

In the past you could have a dancing shield and 4 sellswords and frost and plague andf 1 black heart and the debuff just from those would be
0.20 *0.1*.0.1*.01*0.1*0.1*0.09*0.15 = 2.41 or 141% debuff while now is only 94%.

So in mod 11b if you had 400% buff multiplied by 141% you would get a total 964% increase in damage. Now you only get
400% * 94% = 776% (talking only companions and enchants and 1 artifact) We can factor also debuff skills etc but those stayed intact.

So the buffing now, since the "dream team" lost the multiplicative debuffs, took a hit that can be regained in my opinion by a MoF cw. I made a small chart a couple of months ago as a request from a friend on ps4 that shows the buff / debuff capabilities for various group setups. It doesn't take under consideration the diminishing values but I can tell you, in the runs I have done, I can keep the party at the 300% range (with diminishing applied) in ACT (200% real debuff). while I've seen most parties without a mof being at 170% (70% read debuff) with very few spikes of 200%.


Please correct me if you see anything wrong somewhere, as I'm not after being right but I care more about the truth.
Note : I will expand this to include other classes too like SW and please remember that I don't take under consideration the power sharing, combat advantage and dps a class can bring as those cant be quantified easy. But in spreadsheet I can adjust them as a damage % so we can play around if you like under some assumptions.

Some info about this
In the dps hit I assume 1 single 100k hit how much it will get increased by buffs and then by debuffs.
Companions have a fixed value of 50% debuff and are added to every group separately in the debuff column.

and some notes:
1. I only look at this from the prospective of pure buff / debuff. We can add factors like the dps of a gf, pally or cw but to my experience not all (not even the most) GFs or pallys are dps and the above examples need them to be in dps build while here, I calculate ONLY the buff/debuff values.
2. It doesn't take power share as factor but I can include it if someone can tell me how much of a % of damage it is. you will find its very hard to come with a number as not all clerics or pallys give the same amount. Power share as damage buff will also get multiplied by debuffs too.
3. Its a generalizing chart that doesn't reflect the real performance in a run. Not all MoFs or clerics or pallys build and play at their best though for some classes its easier than others.
4. I assigned chaotic fury a 10% buff value and not 30% since its on 1/3rd of the time, to keep it as average.




And a shameless self promotion :P A typical run mod 12 with some friends. All good players but the group wasn't build for max output but can simulate more real game situations and not ideal.

I agree with what you said about debuffs taking a hit, and the need to reshuffle where your debuffs come from in order to compensate

To add to your discussion about how to compare stuff:

• DPS Increase due to Power sharing is VERY hard to measure, since it depends on how much power people already have. It also synergizes with particular mechanics and certain weapon enchantments in ways that complicate the math. Also AA tends to be very bursty, but it's not clear how to go about measuring uptime (since it depends on the skill of both DC and receiving buff). Anecdotally, a BiS ACDC in an end-game party (say OP, GF, CW, HR) provides at least as much benefit (if not more) than a similarly-geared DODC. Power sharing has natural diminishing returns, so adding the "first" power sharer in group benefits the party dps more than adding a "second" power sharer... but even the "second" is adding a lot of benefit.
  
• Combat Advantage is so easy to trigger on boss fights that I would not count it as a benefit provided by any class in overall damage calculations. However, I do think that GF marks and Nightmare Wizardry are important because they allow to quickly apply CA to mobs, which speeds up 'tween-boss mop-up and travel pretty significantly. But how to quantify that benefit on clear speed but not really on boss fights?
  
• In the case of a single DC, they would likely run BTS instead of FF. And they would likely be righteous for debuffs (regardless of DO or AC). If two DCs, often DO uses FF because it's higher damage and DOs tend to have higher personal damage (so it makes sense for party clear speed). So that makes the calculation more difficult because the setups switching depending on who else is in party. Also Exaltation is fantastic if you expect to have a single main damage dealer.
  
• AoC for pally is also hard to measure. But you're right that it's at least 25% party damage buff (meaning it makes up ~20% of party's damage). Probably more if your damage dealer is a high-proc (ex. CWs) or built for AoC benefit (as many end-game builds start to do). I've seen AoC make up as much as ~35% of inbound damage on Dragon Turtle and Drufi on ~20min runs.
  
• Generally, your example teams pass the gut check in terms of ranking in expected relative damage. Except I don't think that case 4 and case 6 capture the expected relative damage right. I think ACDC would benefit the team at least as much if not more than DODC on that team (esp because of AoC - power interaction). But it's hard to get the math to be robust and accurate...
  
• It's an interesting indicator, but it's hard to just hone in on a single 100k hit. Because some abilities provide a flat increase per hit, faster smaller hits benefit more. No easy way to measure this outside of a more abstract measure like "party FBI clear time" but that's anecdotal in its very nature.
  

fun theoretical exercise!

oria1

Please note that I changed the companions calculation as I had a very stupid moment and was destructed. You can check it again please.

trzebiat

I agree with @tom#6998 about highest dps output, GF is always good with GWF since GWF can benefit from his marking and run Battle Fury for additional buff. But I love playing with MoF Rene CW and running group composition of: DPS OP (for power share, Aura of Courage and Wisdom), buff AC DC (for max power share and double daily), MoF Rene CW (for buff/debuff), some sort of DPS and then either DO DC, GF or another DPS.

oria1

Ok, updated chart based to what Janne said and Dupeks said.

In case 3 even tho the % is low compared to case 1 and 2 we must remember that the DPS aspect of a GF will dramatically impact the run but I cant show it in the chart. (or maybe I can)

CA has a value of 1 which means it doesn't interact with the calculations but I had it there just in case. Yes I know you can gain combat by other means but having it from CW or GF only helps and make you play care free for that aspect.

We need to keep in mind another thing though which in my opinion is FAR more important. Speed runs don't just happen because the said classes just got together. One of the most important factors is that the team is made of friends that can communicate and know each others playstyle, they did a lot of rehearsals and a lot of runs to correct their individual mistakes and focus on their coordination.

That made many people to think that as long as you have a certain class the run will go fast, while this is far from true. Team coordination plays a vital role which you often cant have with randoms or in a more relaxed and casual run. And for most it doesn't matter as adding the extra effort will give you nothing more than a rank 5 anyway :P




Yes dupeks you are right we need to factor also the self buffs each DD class can have which will multiply and increase the damage even more but it would be a nightmare to add this at this point for each dps class. I assume tho the DD knows what's best for them so they can add their "values" to the chart and make a conclusion.

oria1

And please I want to make this CLEAR as far as I'm concerned.

By no means I'm trying to say that those classes are the ONLY valuable, Yesterday we did a T9G with no dc but used a templock, paly, gf, mof, gwf and the run was smooth and fast (35 min to get to the last boss even tho for 4 people out of 5, it was their first try and 1st boss didnt spawn when we went in the 1st time).

I cant emphasize enough on this but remember, we need to build and help make good players and not cookie cutter classes.

micky1p00

oria1 said:

And please I want to make this CLEAR as far as I'm concerned.

By no means I'm trying to say that those classes are the ONLY valuable, Yesterday we did a T9G with no dc but used a templock, paly, gf, mof, gwf and the run was smooth and fast (35 min to get to the last boss even tho for 4 people out of 5, it was their first try and 1st boss didnt spawn when we went in the 1st time).

I cant emphasize enough on this but remember, we need to build and help make good players and not cookie cutter classes.

And this is why my first post in this thread was the most appropriate !

mamalion1234

Puting limits on debuffs to reach hardly 200% was a step to right direction to reduce power creep while
we see in the above excel 2 dc can give 500% damage increase( without power share) simply because buffs are multiplicative and also are multiplicative and with the personal each class has so we can imagine even bigger numbers.

IF the debuff limitation to be all additive and diminishing returns was a step to right direction isnt the time the buffs to get the same treatment?

500% without even counting the personal buffs also is bigger than the old debuff system ( 320% i have seen under normal conditions on debuffing No bugs etc. )

so we had 500% buff(without power share) vs 320% debuff (before mod 12 system )
and now we still have 500% buff( without power share) vs 200% debuff( after mod 12 system)
your thoughts.

ravenskya

Our best runs have been ACDC, DODC, GF, OP Dev, and a GWF or HR

thefiresidecat

yeah I can't get behind the ideal composition of a group. no such thing. if you can beat the content in a reasonable amount of time it's an ideal set up imo lol. we're talking about shaving a couple minutes off in most cases not hours. how many minutes or hours are you sitting around waiting for mr or mrs right?

fingolfin

Thanx all for your posts! Some of them was very informative.

I want to clarify something important here 'cause apparently a lot of you misunderstood the topic (or maybe I haven't phrased it right). I started this discussion NOT to figure out the perfect speed run party but rather to gather information about how to make the most of any group with just swapping powers, enchants, maybe a loadout or companions, be aware of timing and other classes strengths stuff like that. So pls hold the torches . I too mostly run PUG groups and don't like to wait forever for the perfect fit, plus where is the fun when you nuke everything

Just keep that in mind.

ravenskya

OH! The ideal PUG group! I can answer that

any pug where you know you can complete the content - however your teammates provide mad entertainment through their dying to mimics, running in to melt themselves, falling off things you didn't know COULD be fallen off of, you fight malabog and suddenly the adventuring group video pops up, the best PUG is the one that provides the most entertainment while still completing the dungeon.

mebengalsfan

Pally Tank or Healadin (just one pally works great)
DO DC and if we do not have a healadin a ACDC

PallyTank/GF, Healadin/ACDC, DODC, CW MoF Renegade / TempLock, GWF/Combat Ranger/TR MF

For more DPS focused groups where you may have a hard time picking up another healer type class....

PallyTank/GF, Healadin/DC (does not matter build), CW MoF Renegade, TempLock, GWF/Combat Ranger/TR MF


Typical normal designed group without any major buffers/debuffer other than the tank and healer

llyTank/GF, Healadin/DC (does not matter build), any 3 DPS no buffing class.

Out of all my runs in FBI the best and quickest combo has been....

PallyTank, AC DC, CW MoF Renegade, TempLock, and TR - took under 15 minutes to beat FBI without glitching anything....


My second quickest run was around 20 minutes similar setup...

GF, AC DC, CW MoF Thaut - using Swath of Destruction instead of Critical Flag, Temp Lock and Combat HR

You definitely can see the difference when running with a group that tries to maximize buff and debuff caps and the groups where you approach or exceed the caps always seem to complete content quicker than the standard build make up of tank, healer and 3 pure DPS. Off builds that provide buffs IMO do way better than builds focused only on damage.

As a side note, notice none of my quick runs included a GWF, and that is because GWF always tend to run in front of the tank, not allowing the tank to properly position adds resulting in content taking longer. Also, GWF are self focused DPS to the point where I hope the devs do something to provide them a buff build that is better than the minimal buff they provide today.

durugudesu

Usually 2 buff debuff- 1 tank - 1 main dps - 1 secondary dps/buff/debuff.

And its only because i havent finished tomb yet without a tank. They hit too hard