What I find a lot of people saying here and what has been suggested for years ..
Is that a real separation between Pvp stat and pve stats are needed as well as pve vs pvp powers and as how they should function
also the devs could use an ability to make certain adjustments to Pvp stat curves / modes/ rules effectiveness on the fly and monitor results without having to restart the server / wait for maintenance cycles
in case emergency adjustments are needed the devs can adapt quickly to community feedback and can do more experimentation get results quicker and be agile with small micro adjustments
there are already several powers that are adjusted / function differently in Pvp vs pve usually with a reduced duration /cc also pve player always complain about pvp effecting them / vice versa
we need the devs word / option about true separation of stats and curves / pvp / pve because there were a number of excellent suggestions that merely involve tweaking those moving forward more changes can be made in such a fashion with such a system in place and many things can be tested without devastatingly breaking things
what we/ Dev really need is the ability to make small changes to live pvp mode on a weekly/ bi weekly bases and see the impact /monitor results... even if its only 1 or 2 small variables per week .. that can instantly be put back if there is trouble .
It would also be a good way of extending the olive branch to the community and uniting them to get more active feedback that you want from your most valuable resources the Remaining Vet PVP players who are testing and putting in their time on a voluntary basis
What I find a lot of people saying here and what has been suggested for years ..
Is that a real separation between Pvp stat and pve stats are needed as well as pve vs pvp powers and as how they should function
also the devs could use an ability to make certain adjustments to Pvp stat curves / modes/ rules effectiveness on the fly and monitor results without having to restart the server / wait for maintenance cycles
in case emergency adjustments are needed the devs can adapt quickly to community feedback and can do more experimentation get results quicker and be agile with small micro adjustments
there are already several powers that are adjusted / function differently in Pvp vs pve usually with a reduced duration /cc also pve player always complain about pvp effecting them / vice versa
we need the devs word / option about true separation of stats and curves / pvp / pve because there were a number of excellent suggestions that merely involve tweaking those moving forward more changes can be made in such a fashion with such a system in place and many things can be tested without devastatingly breaking things
what we/ Dev really need is the ability to make small changes to live pvp mode on a weekly/ bi weekly bases and see the impact /monitor results... even if its only 1 or 2 small variables per week .. that can instantly be put back if there is trouble .
It would also be a good way of extending the olive branch to the community and uniting them to get more active feedback that you want from your most valuable resources the Remaining Vet PVP players who are testing and putting in their time on a voluntary basis
I generally agree with everything you said BUT am not "sold" on the fact that we need powers to work differently....
I think NW worked just fine in the mod 0 - 3 days, but it started going WAY downhill when they started introducing artifact equipment and artifacts and more and more boons. Back in those days we had minimal self healing via regen, now we have SO many sources of self healing due to items and stat inflation, anyways its all been said.
The "stat inflation" has ruined PVP. Its fine for PVE, but in PVP it doesnt work, its too much a gap and creates too many variables to balance.
STATS are what need to be reworked for PVP. Like you said, thats where I see PVP headed - either a WOW approach (posted earlier in this thread) or different stat curves for PVP so that stats have a "ceiling" of sorts to prevent massive gear gap in PVP.
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
edited June 2017
Powers/ cooldowns / durations to be more specific ..were already working differently in Pvp during the mod 0 -3 days tho and some still do / were revised in later mods.
should cooldowns or recovery or action point or artifact use frequency gain work differently or be half as effective in Pvp just like healing depression ? well i guess those would fall under the new possible proposed curves as well
Powers/ cooldowns / durations to be more specific ..were already working differently in Pvp during the mod 0 -3 days tho and some still do / were revised in later mods.
should cooldowns or recovery or action point or artifact use frequency gain work differently or be half as effective in Pvp just like healing depression ? well i guess those would fall under the new possible proposed curves as well
If they do anything else to pvp they should make debuffs half as effective too. These debuff clerics are insane.
Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
Powers/ cooldowns / durations to be more specific ..were already working differently in Pvp during the mod 0 -3 days tho and some still do / were revised in later mods.
should cooldowns or recovery or action point or artifact use frequency gain work differently or be half as effective in Pvp just like healing depression ? well i guess those would fall under the new possible proposed curves as well
If they do anything else to pvp they should make debuffs half as effective too. These debuff clerics are insane.
YOU cant make debuff half effective in pvp because then you will go and for buff half effective and self buff half as effective to be in line. Weird i heard debuff builds were squishy-less effective in pvp.
What will the net effect of these changes be? Well, AP will be worse against weakly armored targets (no overpenetration ). It might be better against heavily armored targets. But if lightly armored characters now survive better in PvP, and heavily armored ones are a bit less tough, that’s probably a good thing for PvP overall.
When reading this one can not become something else then a bit scared about the knowledge the devs base changes on.
Let us get some facts stright about the situation at hand.
1. Removing pvp armor with pve armor and a player based pvp stats will increase the stats on a massive basis as pve armor allow for stacking certain stats like power, crit, arpen, deflect and recovery on a much higher scale.
2. This increase in stats will lead to increased damage overall
3. If weak armored classes will take less damage then before and heavy armored classes will take more then before this will even out for the weak classes but hit the heavy armored classed dubble.
For some reason all classes have about the same hp pool (pal can have somewhat more but nor much) and now the armor will effectively become the same that is zero as it is easy to negate it with arpen.
On top of this we most likely will have a crit damage increase that will further push the damage upward.
Now add piercing damage on top of this, add that some classes can bypass stats as arpen(hr,tr) crit(tr and to some degree cw) and 2 of those classes has access to piercing damage and you are heading for crash and burn for the classes like gwf gf dc and pal.
Hr can also go hybrid bypassing recovery and still have access to piercing damage using dread easy reaching 200+% crit severity and with pve armor reaching either 60 or 70%+ crit chance depending on feat set up. If you though Hr could melt you before you have seen nothing of it yet.
Tr can bypass crit and arpen and even so they have the tools to avoid damage totally just going perma itc/cc if they need. With pve armor they get all the benefit of the change and nothing on the downside: There is a reason Tr is the most common class in pvp at the moment and this change will do nothing about that quite the opposite.
Cw have their bubble which as a second layer at least save them from piercing damage exe and together will high recovery and high stamina gain they can dodge more or less endlessly saving the day for them. ( depending on IF there will be a cc change to some form of immunity to chain cc like endless repel etc cw will most certainly benefit more than they will have drawbacks)
SW will do ALOT more damage making them life steal alot more I can´t see that they will have anything but a better time with this change.
Gwf well say what you want armor negated a LOT more damage taken, melee class doing less damage overall (even with stat increase from pve armor) no chance to build more defense - it dont look good this is the class that will suffer most from these changes as I see it.
Gf block saves the day in some situations but if cced or hit from behind same as Gwf class but will suffer less, however with cc immunity that prevents Gf from landing cc chain (if that happens) the overall result for Gf as a pvp class is worse.
Pal living on either healing or temp hp will not suffer as much as Gf and Gwf but will as a heavy armored class also become less in pvp.
Dc will of course loose out as heavy armored also but depending on cc immunity and pve armor its hard to figure out just how much(at least for me).
I am all for the changes but what I can´t understand is why its so hard to separate heavy armor from light armor.
If you are going to give players pvp base stats you can as well work out stats for the classes.
This suggestion is not based on tests just and example that can be tested and elaborated with;
Pal, Gf 60% dam resist, Gwf, Dc 50 % dam resist, Hr 40 % dam resist( tr get less for obvious reasons), Cw, SW and Tr 30% damage resist. This can be reverted on control resist etc etc.
Unless you force people to stack incredible amount of arpen to negate those that stack defense so that they have to sacrifice other stats to do so defense is not a factor in pvp it is as simple as that.
Now piercing damage that negate any form of defense need to be replaced or somehow taken care of.
Other suggestion: As pve armor allow for a lot higher stats now would be a good time to get rid of SH boon, potions and food in pvp. Stable bonus also need to be looked at of course but SH boon with 8k arpen or power and potions/food gives way too much stats imho....
Powers/ cooldowns / durations to be more specific ..were already working differently in Pvp during the mod 0 -3 days tho and some still do / were revised in later mods.
should cooldowns or recovery or action point or artifact use frequency gain work differently or be half as effective in Pvp just like healing depression ? well i guess those would fall under the new possible proposed curves as well
Yeah the bottom thing sums it up.
If you create "hardcaps" for stats, you wont see massive recovery stacking or ARP stacking etc. etc. So it would impact the max reduction on CDs...
I would also be 100% behind adding a 1 min CD to all dailies. So even if you do get AP built up that fast, it would be on CD. This makes a "daily" actually a more rare occurrence. If you REALLY want to spice things up, since we have TWO dailies, you can merely make the 1 you used have a 60 sec CD which means MAX would be 1 daily each 30 seconds - but you would have to alternate dailies, which now adds more "spice" in builds.
I dont remember very many powers working differently in PVP than in PVE... I cant think of any off the top of my head...
Frankly, Healing depression is PART of the overall problem too. When you restrict a stat or a thing (like self healing) it makes you require 2x as much of it to get the desired result. This is why PVE players dont really care for things like lifesteal because a TINY investment gives you a TON of healing, where as in PVP you have to invest much deeper to get a good return... Until they release TONS of avenues of self healing.
This is another area (IMO) that needs to be reworked. There shouldnt be self healing items. Lifesteal should be the only source of self healing and with that, endless consumption needs to be nerfed a TON. Lifesteal should be reworked as well (IMO). The initial mod 6 idea of the rework was a good one - until they allowed us to get a TON of lifesteal through more artifacts and SH boons.
Anyways, point being, the solution to ALL of this is in separate PVP/PVE STATS. I dont see powers being a problem I see stats being a problem. Each and every module they release new stat inflation (new gear, new boons etc) which creates larger gear gap and larger class balance issues since some classes benefit more from stats than others.
So this is why they either need to go with the wow model of stats or look at Iyon's proposal where they create "hardcaps" for all stat curves that apply to PVP differently... Making it easier to "cap" all the stats which in turn, means the gear gap between new and veteran is significantly smaller. This also allows them to fine tune things since they can merely adjust these caps each module as they see fit.
But short answer to your question is yes - things should work differently. I think "powers" would take a LOT of work when I dont think that avenue is needed. Id rather see them try and balance out the stats side of the equation and then you can start to balance a few powers once you figure out the gear/stat issue.
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
here is an example of a Cw power created after mod 3
4 second duration on players... 15 seconds on pve mobs with variable cooldowns
arguably one of the worst powers ever created ...it really could use a rework but that is besides the point (I might open a poll what one power per class would you like to see changed /reworked)
that the devs decided certain CC powers should have reduced flat duration on players in pvp instead of trying to tackle diminishing / increasing Cc returns on such powers..
Entangling force has about half the duration on player in Pvp unless on tab for example cause of people complaining about being cc chained/ / frozen in the old days ....thats why Cw powers still penetrate some tenacity in pvp (and people falsely complain not knowing that the powers back end functions were adjusted (nerfed) in a prior mods...and elven battle enchant became popular as well
then they let trs and hrs / other classes chain stun people ... with no cc diminishing returns or immunity breaks in place like they did / balanced for cw ray of frost and freeze application ...
Back in mod7 i guess, negation enchantment wasn't mitigated by ap, i guess it must work this way in next mod or it will become useless.What other t. enchantment can be vanished with 3k(of armor pen) stats? Elven works perfect even against heave cc classes, soulforged still works when u get one-shoted. Please take a look on it once again. @rgutscheradev
here is an example of a Cw power created after mod 3
4 second duration on players... 15 seconds on pve mobs with variable cooldowns
arguably one of the worst powers ever created ...it really could use a rework but that is besides the point (I might open a poll what one power per class would you like to see changed /reworked)
that the devs decided certain CC powers should have reduced flat duration on players in pvp instead of trying to tackle diminishing / increasing Cc returns on such powers..
Entangling force has about half the duration on player in Pvp unless on tab for example cause of people complaining about being cc chained/ / frozen in the old days ....thats why Cw powers still penetrate some tenacity in pvp (and people falsely complain not knowing that the powers back end functions were adjusted (nerfed) in a prior mods...and elven battle enchant became popular as well
then they let trs and hrs / other classes chain stun people ... with no cc diminishing returns or immunity breaks in place like they did / balanced for cw ray of frost and freeze application ...
@kalina311 Gotta love the permanent Courage breaker spam dont you?!? xD
Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
On players, CB should last for 3 secs max and it must have a 2 min CD to not be able to spam it. In fact, IMO, almost all Dailies must have a CD to not be able to spam some of them.
TR's are pesky and all, but this is just too much. It would make CB useless. And I'm speaking as a very long time GWF main.
How to fix CB 101:
1) 7 second duration on player
2) Make it being able to to be broken free from. Oghma's Token of Free movement breaks free from CB, confirmed. Therefore other CC breakers like ITC and Unstoppable should cancel CB.
here is an example of a Cw power created after mod 3
4 second duration on players... 15 seconds on pve mobs with variable cooldowns
arguably one of the worst powers ever created ...it really could use a rework but that is besides the point (I might open a poll what one power per class would you like to see changed /reworked)
that the devs decided certain CC powers should have reduced flat duration on players in pvp instead of trying to tackle diminishing / increasing Cc returns on such powers..
Entangling force has about half the duration on player in Pvp unless on tab for example cause of people complaining about being cc chained/ / frozen in the old days ....thats why Cw powers still penetrate some tenacity in pvp (and people falsely complain not knowing that the powers back end functions were adjusted (nerfed) in a prior mods...and elven battle enchant became popular as well
then they let trs and hrs / other classes chain stun people ... with no cc diminishing returns or immunity breaks in place like they did / balanced for cw ray of frost and freeze application ...
Well this is probably one of the reasons why usually pvp thread die down because they falter from the very reason the thead stated on.. this is a great start to normalizing an aspect that was heavily overpowering.. most of what everyone else said was subject to class balance changes.. I can understand this change might be for gwfs and not paladins(yes this is true) to be horrible.. But what the heck is pvp right now? The only thing these changes surmount to is a balance/rework thread for the other classes that have been anxiously awaited.
Put a 1 min timer on dailies and some form of diminishing return on cc so that you can´t be chained cced would go a long way to making pvp a better place.
Age of conan has a good way of handling cc when it comes to immunity frames, they also separate ccs into major and minor where major prevents players from doing anything like stun, knock down etc and minor interacts with players abilities like snare, daze etc.
Some games use players based immunity frames and others global it depends on how you want the teams to cooperate. Global prevents all forms of chain cc while player based forces several players to focus same target.
2 of the major factors that need to be adressed asap is ccs and piercing once those are fixed lifegain and power creep from boons etc can be looked at.
One class stands out in NW pvp that is Tr, this immunity with ITC and hide which is in fact not hide but invisibility together with 80% + deflection severity together with piercing damage and endless ccs need to be fixed.
Give them something else but overall in NW pvp this Tr class just do not fit in the system.
Sneaking up in hide sure - fighting in hide never that is invisibility not hide. But fixing cc system and piercing damage will take care of some of it, at least one can hope.....
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
so back on track here guys .... where we have consensus
the low hanging fruit (phrasing that the devs are so fond ) of that should be easy to alter fix balance Pvp is /are introduce other pvp depression stats just like healing depression
1. increase the artifact cool downs in seconds by 50%-100% 2. Limit dailies to 1 or 2 per minute / and or encourage use of alternate dailies more.
3. Limit action point gain by 50%-100% 4. Alternate stats curves with more severe diminishing returns for pvp vs pve 5. better Cc immunity break frames or diminishing returns on stuns and permalocks / abuse reapplying the same cc powers types (stun prone lock )within short duration //and a visual que to know that someone is briefly immune to a control chain
6. retain tenacity armor pen resistance and stats at a moderate level cause removing it is still too harsh for some classes and class balance is not on the table
7 ability for devs to make small stat changes to the live server resistance variables etc for better feedback / more agile adaptations ..once or twice per month
8 the devs actually typing / participating in the Pvp for feedback and making adjustments
9 possibly toning down or applying some tenacity to piercing damage
these are all suggestions that are independent of class balance does anybody have anymore to add that are relatively easy low hanging fruit
and not so low hanging fruit... an actual PVP tutorial or foundry mission by sgt knox explaining basic node capping and pvp strategies
a default free pvp loadout or 2 for someone that is clueless with basic powers equipment etc ...
Post edited by kalina311 on
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
so back on track here guys .... where we have consensus
the low hanging fruit (phrasing that the devs are so fond ) of that should be easy to alter fix balance Pvp is /are introduce other pvp depression stats just like healing depression
1. increase the artifact cool downs in seconds by 50%-100% 2. Limit dailies to 1 or 2 per minute / and or encourage use of alternate dailies more.
3. Limit action point gain by 50%-100% 4. Alternate stats curves with more severe diminishing returns for pvp vs pve 5. better Cc immunity break frames or diminishing returns on stuns and permalocks / abuse reapplying the same powers within short duration //and a visual que to know that someone is briefly immune to a control chain
6. retain tenacity armor pen resistance and stats at a moderate level cause removing it is still too harsh for some classes and class balance is not on the table
these are all suggestions that are independent of class balance does anybody have anymore to add that are relatively easy low hanging fruit
to all powers please not just same power about 5. I mean if i do ice knife the target to be immune to any prone . IF target get stun immune to all stuns. IF target get daze immune to all dazes.
I hope this dev isn't stupid. So many of these suggestions will kill a few classes.
such as ? which suggestions do you feel will kill classes that we dont have listed . a consensus on ? ??? what are some of your own suggestions then ?? I attempted to unify suggestions that are class neutral . so that we dont all fall into the my class needs a nerf/ yours needs a buff talk
thanks for giving antifeedback most of your comment in this thread have been placed in the lower depths off topic anyways ...call it a coincidence
If a class is killed because you get immunity frames from cc-chains they need to find other cheesy builds, no class should live on perma cc in pvp.
If some classes can not live with piercing getting fixed am sure the rest can because frankly they can not atm. Fixing piercing damage is far more simple then fixing the total class balance for mod 12 and it can be done without spending to many hours on it.
2 tr running together is unstoppable in todays pvp and frankly this class has been redicules OP for far to long. Hr are strong but can be killed Tr is stronger and can not be killed if played right its beyond stupid.
Feel free to come with input of what you feel would kill some class why and a better alternative, that might help more then what you just wrote before.....
One more thing, I still think giving plate, chain, leather and cloth different resist is a valid option and would imo solve many of the issues with removing arpen resist.
If they remove SH boon, food and potions there will be no need to nerf any damage. IF they are to nerf Gf damage as you suggest they better start looking at other classes survivabilty like Hr, Tr, Cw, SW and Gwfs. The only thing that kills high end Gwfs today is piercing damage. Cw bubble deflect/recovery build is nought to impossible to kill not to mention Sw with full lifesteal build that also do more then decent damage.
Hr is hard to kill near impossible 1-1 and Tr is IMPOSSIBLE to kill 1-1 at least for those without piercing.
I do not think nerfing damage more then removing some of the power creep due to boons sigils potion and food is a very good thing atm.
If there is any possibility to start with giving all players some pvp stats, replacing pvp armor and getting some form of cc immunity to mod 12 am pretty sure that is what the devs can do in this short time.
Class balance is something down the road, some of these changes (if they happend) will need to be tested on preview before they go live and there is very little time for that as it is.......
If gwfs could just be top melee dps while having a ton of hp to avoid piercing dmg one hits, the ability to break out of courage breaker, with medium tanki-ness(lower then it is now of course) I think all GWFs would be happy. No reason why a tank (gf) should hit harder then a GWF ever no matter even if the GWF is sentinel.
Find me in game if you want and send me a domination/ gaunt invite. If you are good and im not busy ill play with you. Im not an elitist ill play with almost anyone.
Comments
What I find a lot of people saying here and what has been suggested for years ..
Is that a real separation between Pvp stat and pve stats are needed as well as pve vs pvp powers and as how they should function
also the devs could use an ability to make certain adjustments to Pvp stat curves / modes/ rules effectiveness on the fly and monitor results without having to restart the server / wait for maintenance cycles
in case emergency adjustments are needed the devs can adapt quickly to community feedback and can do more experimentation get results quicker and be agile with small micro adjustments
there are already several powers that are adjusted / function differently in Pvp vs pve usually with a reduced duration /cc
also pve player always complain about pvp effecting them / vice versa
we need the devs word / option about true separation of stats and curves / pvp / pve
because there were a number of excellent suggestions that merely involve tweaking those
moving forward more changes can be made in such a fashion with such a system in place
and many things can be tested without devastatingly breaking things
what we/ Dev really need is the ability to make small changes to live pvp mode on a weekly/ bi weekly bases and see the impact /monitor results... even if its only 1 or 2 small variables per week .. that can instantly be put back if there is trouble .
It would also be a good way of extending the olive branch to the community and uniting them to get more active feedback that you want from your most valuable resources the Remaining Vet PVP players who are testing and putting in their time on a voluntary basis
I think NW worked just fine in the mod 0 - 3 days, but it started going WAY downhill when they started introducing artifact equipment and artifacts and more and more boons. Back in those days we had minimal self healing via regen, now we have SO many sources of self healing due to items and stat inflation, anyways its all been said.
The "stat inflation" has ruined PVP. Its fine for PVE, but in PVP it doesnt work, its too much a gap and creates too many variables to balance.
STATS are what need to be reworked for PVP. Like you said, thats where I see PVP headed - either a WOW approach (posted earlier in this thread) or different stat curves for PVP so that stats have a "ceiling" of sorts to prevent massive gear gap in PVP.
should cooldowns or recovery or action point or artifact use frequency gain work differently or be half as effective in Pvp just like healing depression ?
well i guess those would fall under the new possible proposed curves as well
Weird i heard debuff builds were squishy-less effective in pvp.
When reading this one can not become something else then a bit scared about the knowledge the devs base changes on.
Let us get some facts stright about the situation at hand.
1. Removing pvp armor with pve armor and a player based pvp stats will increase the stats on a massive basis as pve armor allow for stacking certain stats like power, crit, arpen, deflect and recovery on a much higher scale.
2. This increase in stats will lead to increased damage overall
3. If weak armored classes will take less damage then before and heavy armored classes will take more then before this will even out for the weak classes but hit the heavy armored classed dubble.
For some reason all classes have about the same hp pool (pal can have somewhat more but nor much) and now the armor will effectively become the same that is zero as it is easy to negate it with arpen.
On top of this we most likely will have a crit damage increase that will further push the damage upward.
Now add piercing damage on top of this, add that some classes can bypass stats as arpen(hr,tr) crit(tr and to some degree cw) and 2 of those classes has access to piercing damage and you are heading for crash and burn for the classes like gwf gf dc and pal.
Hr can also go hybrid bypassing recovery and still have access to piercing damage using dread easy reaching 200+% crit severity and with pve armor reaching either 60 or 70%+ crit chance depending on feat set up. If you though Hr could melt you before you have seen nothing of it yet.
Tr can bypass crit and arpen and even so they have the tools to avoid damage totally just going perma itc/cc if they need. With pve armor they get all the benefit of the change and nothing on the downside: There is a reason Tr is the most common class in pvp at the moment and this change will do nothing about that quite the opposite.
Cw have their bubble which as a second layer at least save them from piercing damage exe and together will high recovery and high stamina gain they can dodge more or less endlessly saving the day for them. ( depending on IF there will be a cc change to some form of immunity to chain cc like endless repel etc cw will most certainly benefit more than they will have drawbacks)
SW will do ALOT more damage making them life steal alot more I can´t see that they will have anything but a better time with this change.
Gwf well say what you want armor negated a LOT more damage taken, melee class doing less damage overall (even with stat increase from pve armor) no chance to build more defense - it dont look good this is the class that will suffer most from these changes as I see it.
Gf block saves the day in some situations but if cced or hit from behind same as Gwf class but will suffer less, however with cc immunity that prevents Gf from landing cc chain (if that happens) the overall result for Gf as a pvp class is worse.
Pal living on either healing or temp hp will not suffer as much as Gf and Gwf but will as a heavy armored class also become less in pvp.
Dc will of course loose out as heavy armored also but depending on cc immunity and pve armor its hard to figure out just how much(at least for me).
I am all for the changes but what I can´t understand is why its so hard to separate heavy armor from light armor.
If you are going to give players pvp base stats you can as well work out stats for the classes.
This suggestion is not based on tests just and example that can be tested and elaborated with;
Pal, Gf 60% dam resist, Gwf, Dc 50 % dam resist, Hr 40 % dam resist( tr get less for obvious reasons), Cw, SW and Tr 30% damage resist.
This can be reverted on control resist etc etc.
Unless you force people to stack incredible amount of arpen to negate those that stack defense so that they have to sacrifice other stats to do so defense is not a factor in pvp it is as simple as that.
Now piercing damage that negate any form of defense need to be replaced or somehow taken care of.
Other suggestion:
As pve armor allow for a lot higher stats now would be a good time to get rid of SH boon, potions and food in pvp. Stable bonus also need to be looked at of course but SH boon with 8k arpen or power and potions/food gives way too much stats imho....
If you create "hardcaps" for stats, you wont see massive recovery stacking or ARP stacking etc. etc. So it would impact the max reduction on CDs...
I would also be 100% behind adding a 1 min CD to all dailies. So even if you do get AP built up that fast, it would be on CD. This makes a "daily" actually a more rare occurrence. If you REALLY want to spice things up, since we have TWO dailies, you can merely make the 1 you used have a 60 sec CD which means MAX would be 1 daily each 30 seconds - but you would have to alternate dailies, which now adds more "spice" in builds.
I dont remember very many powers working differently in PVP than in PVE... I cant think of any off the top of my head...
Frankly, Healing depression is PART of the overall problem too. When you restrict a stat or a thing (like self healing) it makes you require 2x as much of it to get the desired result. This is why PVE players dont really care for things like lifesteal because a TINY investment gives you a TON of healing, where as in PVP you have to invest much deeper to get a good return... Until they release TONS of avenues of self healing.
This is another area (IMO) that needs to be reworked. There shouldnt be self healing items. Lifesteal should be the only source of self healing and with that, endless consumption needs to be nerfed a TON. Lifesteal should be reworked as well (IMO). The initial mod 6 idea of the rework was a good one - until they allowed us to get a TON of lifesteal through more artifacts and SH boons.
Anyways, point being, the solution to ALL of this is in separate PVP/PVE STATS. I dont see powers being a problem I see stats being a problem. Each and every module they release new stat inflation (new gear, new boons etc) which creates larger gear gap and larger class balance issues since some classes benefit more from stats than others.
So this is why they either need to go with the wow model of stats or look at Iyon's proposal where they create "hardcaps" for all stat curves that apply to PVP differently... Making it easier to "cap" all the stats which in turn, means the gear gap between new and veteran is significantly smaller. This also allows them to fine tune things since they can merely adjust these caps each module as they see fit.
But short answer to your question is yes - things should work differently. I think "powers" would take a LOT of work when I dont think that avenue is needed. Id rather see them try and balance out the stats side of the equation and then you can start to balance a few powers once you figure out the gear/stat issue.
here is an example of a Cw power created after mod 3
4 second duration on players... 15 seconds on pve mobs with variable cooldowns
arguably one of the worst powers ever created ...it really could use a rework but that is besides the point
(I might open a poll what one power per class would you like to see changed /reworked)
that the devs decided certain CC powers should have reduced flat duration on players in pvp instead of trying to tackle diminishing / increasing Cc returns on such powers..
Entangling force has about half the duration on player in Pvp unless on tab for example cause of people complaining about being cc chained/ / frozen in the old days ....thats why Cw powers still penetrate some tenacity in pvp (and people falsely complain not knowing that the powers back end functions were adjusted (nerfed) in a prior mods...and elven battle enchant became popular as well
then they let trs and hrs / other classes chain stun people ... with no cc diminishing returns or immunity breaks in place like they did / balanced for cw ray of frost and freeze application ...
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Gotta love the permanent Courage breaker spam dont you?!? xD
How to fix CB 101:
1) 7 second duration on player
2) Make it being able to to be broken free from. Oghma's Token of Free movement breaks free from CB, confirmed. Therefore other CC breakers like ITC and Unstoppable should cancel CB.
Sometimes this game is really contradictory.
Age of conan has a good way of handling cc when it comes to immunity frames, they also separate ccs into major and minor where major prevents players from doing anything like stun, knock down etc and minor interacts with players abilities like snare, daze etc.
Some games use players based immunity frames and others global it depends on how you want the teams to cooperate.
Global prevents all forms of chain cc while player based forces several players to focus same target.
2 of the major factors that need to be adressed asap is ccs and piercing once those are fixed lifegain and power creep from boons etc can be looked at.
One class stands out in NW pvp that is Tr, this immunity with ITC and hide which is in fact not hide but invisibility together with 80% + deflection severity together with piercing damage and endless ccs need to be fixed.
Give them something else but overall in NW pvp this Tr class just do not fit in the system.
Sneaking up in hide sure - fighting in hide never that is invisibility not hide. But fixing cc system and piercing damage will take care of some of it, at least one can hope.....
so back on track here guys .... where we have consensus
the low hanging fruit (phrasing that the devs are so fond ) of that should be easy to alter fix balance Pvp is /are
introduce other pvp depression stats just like healing depression
1. increase the artifact cool downs in seconds by 50%-100%
2. Limit dailies to 1 or 2 per minute / and or encourage use of alternate dailies more.
3. Limit action point gain by 50%-100%
4. Alternate stats curves with more severe diminishing returns for pvp vs pve
5. better Cc immunity break frames or diminishing returns on stuns and permalocks / abuse reapplying the same cc powers types (stun prone lock )within short duration //and a visual que to know that someone is briefly immune to a control chain
6. retain tenacity armor pen resistance and stats at a moderate level cause removing it is still too harsh for some classes and class balance is not on the table
7 ability for devs to make small stat changes to the live server resistance variables etc for better feedback / more agile adaptations ..once or twice per month
8 the devs actually typing / participating in the Pvp for feedback and making adjustments
9 possibly toning down or applying some tenacity to piercing damage
these are all suggestions that are independent of class balance does anybody have anymore to add that are relatively easy low hanging fruit
and not so low hanging fruit... an actual PVP tutorial or foundry mission by sgt knox explaining basic node capping and pvp strategies
a default free pvp loadout or 2 for someone that is clueless with basic powers equipment etc ...
IF target get stun immune to all stuns. IF target get daze immune to all dazes.
now you can remove your comment .
such as ? which suggestions do you feel will kill classes that we dont have listed . a consensus on ? ??? what are some of your own suggestions then ?? I attempted to unify suggestions that are class neutral . so that we dont all fall into the my class needs a nerf/ yours needs a buff talk
thanks for giving antifeedback most of your comment in this thread have been placed in the lower depths off topic anyways ...call it a coincidence
If some classes can not live with piercing getting fixed am sure the rest can because frankly they can not atm.
Fixing piercing damage is far more simple then fixing the total class balance for mod 12 and it can be done without spending to many hours on it.
2 tr running together is unstoppable in todays pvp and frankly this class has been redicules OP for far to long.
Hr are strong but can be killed Tr is stronger and can not be killed if played right its beyond stupid.
Feel free to come with input of what you feel would kill some class why and a better alternative, that might help more then what you just wrote before.....
One more thing, I still think giving plate, chain, leather and cloth different resist is a valid option and would imo solve many of the issues with removing arpen resist.
Cw bubble deflect/recovery build is nought to impossible to kill not to mention Sw with full lifesteal build that also do more then decent damage.
Hr is hard to kill near impossible 1-1 and Tr is IMPOSSIBLE to kill 1-1 at least for those without piercing.
I do not think nerfing damage more then removing some of the power creep due to boons sigils potion and food is a very good thing atm.
If there is any possibility to start with giving all players some pvp stats, replacing pvp armor and getting some form of cc immunity to mod 12 am pretty sure that is what the devs can do in this short time.
Class balance is something down the road, some of these changes (if they happend) will need to be tested on preview before they go live and there is very little time for that as it is.......