Official Feedback Thread: M12 Armor Pen Changes and PvP

icyphish

it seems GWF can skip the next mod... or mods....... we are gonna be without any defense at all, defense stat is gonna be as good as null, no immunity frame, nothing to run from heavy piercing damage (at least some other classes could dodge/block), and now we can't even deal enough damage to kill anything....

If the new mod rolls out like this, then I guess its time for my to switch to other classes, GWF will be unplayable...

treesclimber

"There should no longer be “bonus damage” (damage past 100%) coming from Armor Pen."
It's gone, nada, not there.

"How is Armor Pen looking in PvP? The fixes won’t be enough to put tanks and dps classes in perfect PvP balance, but do they at least move things in the right direction rather than the wrong direction?"

Is this right? At least it seems taking a fast test.

DamageSuffered = Enemydamage*(1- (DR% - EnemyRI%*TenRIreduction%))*(100-TenacityDMGreduction%)


Now:

DamageSuffered = Enemydamage*(1-(DR% - EnemyRI%)[MIN0])*(100-TenacityDMGreduction%)

The fix of the bug was good, the removal of tenacity RI reduction was not, if there is a stat (defense) and feats/powers that provide damage reduction then they should be viable in most situations, depending on the scaling of module of the bug after this fix there will be better and worse fights, but DR will in practically entirely all cases be useless, that is my point, why build defense?

"How do people feel about removing Tenacity entirely? What do people feel about the proposed numbers for the global PvP buff?"

Critical severity, bad idea, CC maybe good if reworked together with PVE, the concept of CC in pve is completely ruined, CW's are good controllers, true, because of CC bonus, no, because of repeat appliances of CC, there is little point in freeze a target if it can be stunned until dead.

vordayn

treesclimber said:

Critical severity, bad idea, CC maybe good if reworked together with PVE, the concept of CC in pve is completely ruined, CW's are good controllers, true, because of CC bonus, no, because of repeat appliances of CC, there is little point in freeze a target if it can be stunned until dead.

Agreed. Although this is a PvP thread, if they don't make the changes only relevant to PvP mode, then it will nerf the PvE experience.

Control in PvE is not that good atm.

armadeonx

I think this is a great move and very similar to a suggestion I posted on the pvp section a couple of weeks ago. It will certainly equalise matches more for newer players/ pvp part-timers.

If we can get a separate pvp definition for piercing damage and a limit on stun re-applications/durations (and a bit of attention on separate pvp power definitions for some powers) then I believe pvp will be in a much better place and so much more welcoming for those trying it out - which is the only way it will grow.

armadeonx

Also did I read that right - pvp private queues? does that mean private matches can be arranged? If so that's so cool.

Hopefully it covers all of the 5/10/20 man formats - it would be amazing to have 20 man Guild v Guild Siege between guilds in our alliance

thefiresidecat

I think pvp should be as vanilla as it can be made.

armadeonx

BTW if you guys are looking for ideas on new pvp formats, there was a popular one in Guild Wars where opposing teams had to claim 'mines' and escort or attack npc carriers who transported stuff between the mines and 'home base'.

It's very different from the usual 'kill the opposition' format and my old alliance played it all the time.

swaggot69

this only shows how weak is GWF in pvp
the change made him so bad that i cant get near any ranged class anymore or even other melee classes, GWF has just nothing right now to defend himself i just simply can choose to die or die.

trentbail21

swaggot69#3726 said:

this only shows how weak is GWF in pvp

the change made him so bad that i cant get near any ranged class anymore or even other melee classes, GWF has just nothing right now to defend himself i just simply can choose to die or die.

Sounds like mod 5 all over again to me lol.

josiahiyon

ayroux said:

YES! YES! YES! OMG YES!!!!! Wow.... just wow this is awesome. I cant even say it enough. This is HUGE!!!! Thank you!

1) Love the ARP change - especially removal of arp resist.
2) PLEASE replace tenacity. This was a good idea, but very poorly implemented. Giving players a standard buff in PVP is an AWESOME idea!!!! This removes the "divide" between PVE and PVP players allowing for ANY gear to be used! This is awesome!!!! Here is my feedback (I have already tested this ad nasium)

- Base "tenacity damage resist" on the buff should be pegged to 60%.
- Crit resistance should be pegged to 30%!
- Control Resist (if no diminishing returns come) should be kept at 40%.

Now, to elaborate. Right now Critical Strike resistance at 45% actually makes crits deal LESS damage than non crits. Why?

Well, everyone has a multiplier of 1.75 base for a crit (meaning in PVE crits do 75% more damage).

In PVP Crit Resistance does this:

1.75 * (1-45%) = NEW DAMAGE. What is this new damage? 96.25% of your NON CRIT value....... So to put this in laymans terms: Crits deal ~4% LESS DAMAGE than non crits.


Now, you can modify this in several ways (such as make crit resist only impact the severity, not the actual damage) but the easiest (IMO) is to merely make crit resist = 30%. What THIS does is 1.75 * (1-30%) = 1.22. Now crits would deal 22% more damage than non crits which seems fair.

If you merely did this, crits would crit for TOO much. This is where I think beefing UP the "damage resist" portion to 60% seems fair.

Great thread all around, glad to see the community is being heard.

Agreed to make tenacity a set-stat, and not based on gear. Great change. Could require some tweaking by classes, but ideally not.

Also, I agree with @ayroux and @xsayajinx1 above.
Crit suppression should be reduced, and base tenacity suppression should be increased.

Removing the arpen suppression hits the high-dr based classes significantly, while fixing the 'bug' helps the low-dr classes. All-in, as others have mentioned, this is a major nerf to high-dr classes and a small buff to low-dr classes. This change is not necessary and does not improve class balance. The reason arpen suppression is so high on live is because arpen is 4x easier to stack than dr.

Reducing the crit suppression will bring back crit as a viable build option in pvp, as well as make pve builds more successful in pvp.

I suggest the following:

• 50% base tenacity suppression, 20% crit tenacity suppression, 75% arpen tenacity suppression
  
• Apply tenacity dr to piercing damage (i.e. non-crit piercing would get reduced by the base tenacity suppression)
  
• Remove unmitigateable shields (cw, gf), and add their effect to DR (not another layer).
  

I'm not sure what to do with cc suppression. Either keep it at ~40% or increase it. Are CWs still getting around this mechanic? If I recall, there was a change to tenacity that effectively let CWs bypass this suppression. Not sure if still the case.

swaggot69

> @trentbail21 said:
> this only shows how weak is GWF in pvp
>
> the change made him so bad that i cant get near any ranged class anymore or even other melee classes, GWF has just nothing right now to defend himself i just simply can choose to die or die.
>
> Sounds like mod 5 all over again to me lol.
its actualy worse now cause you have literaly 0 chance vs any class not even chance to fight back you just die.

vordayn

ayroux said:

As for this" I know that these changes just scratch the surface of what’s needed in PvP. I’m happy to hear further suggestions":
- The best thing I can suggest is to create a PVP Level system. Players earn EXP and lose EXP on wins/losses. Players get a "level" in PVP they work towards increasing. THIS becomes both your leaderboard as well as your matchmaking tool.

In a game like NW. Gear is too large a factor, so ELO is a VERY POOR way of matching players. I would create a PVP level system ranging from say 1-60.

Rank Icon Name
0-9 ?
10-19 Dominator
20-29 Tyrant
30-39 Supreme Tyrant
40-49 Ultimate Tyrant
50-59 Overlord
60 Invincible Overlord

Then with THIS, you have matchmaking pair 1 tier higher and lower. So, to give an example:

PVP Level 37 player ques up. He is a "Supreme Tyrant". Matchmaking will LOOK for players that are 20-49 (Tyrant+Supreme Tyrant+Ultimate Tyrant).

Things like this. I would also make it, so you can gain and lose levels but make the "rank" you earn a "floor".

So that same lvl 37 Supreme Tyrant loses a BUNCH of games, his "floor" is PVP level 30. He can never lose his Supreme Tyrant rank, but he can go up or down the full spectrum of levels in that rank: 30-39. If he wins enough and is promoted to Ultimate Tyrant (40), now he has "locked in" level 40 and cannot go below that. But if he wins and gets to lvl 49 (still U.T.) but then loses a bunch he could drop all the way back down to 40....

I think this is broad enough to encompass large enough player base. New players would never match against higher players. As I also said, this becomes your leaderboards - tracking total EXP. At 60 (Invincible Overlord) players still earn EXP it just doesnt increase their level.

Each module you can "reset" the leaderboards and players have at it again... Or maybe you do a "reset" by cutting everyones EXP in half (lvl 60s start as 30s, lvl 30s start as 15s) MANY ways to do this...

^^ this.

A scaled leaderboard with levels - I like this idea very much.

vordayn

josiahiyon said:

I'm not sure what to do with cc suppression. Either keep it at ~40% or increase it. Are CWs still getting around this mechanic? If I recall, there was a change to tenacity that effectively let CWs bypass this suppression. Not sure if still the case.

I do not think CWs bypass the control resist from tenacity, but a CW has to go down the Oppressor path and pick a Tier 4 feat Glacial Movement and Slot the Class Feature Orb of Imposition to see a noticeable effect on control. Even still, against a wearer with Transcendent Elven Battle Enchantment, it is a split second longer even with this extra control.

Control from TRs daze and slows - Smoke Bomb and Courage Breaker - are pretty good control powers. Sometimes with Courage Breaker I can barely move around. Having said that , it is one of the better mechanics for a TR in PvP at the moment.

The GF's Prone and Stuns - Bull Charge and Crescendo - last a fairly long time, usually the duration of the animation, hence the one-rotation kills if they link them up.

T.EB only helps against slows, immobilises, disables and stuns, so it is not any help against Prone. I do not know if Prone is affected by CC resist.

mamalion1234

josiahiyon said:

ayroux said:

YES! YES! YES! OMG YES!!!!! Wow.... just wow this is awesome. I cant even say it enough. This is HUGE!!!! Thank you!

1) Love the ARP change - especially removal of arp resist.
2) PLEASE replace tenacity. This was a good idea, but very poorly implemented. Giving players a standard buff in PVP is an AWESOME idea!!!! This removes the "divide" between PVE and PVP players allowing for ANY gear to be used! This is awesome!!!! Here is my feedback (I have already tested this ad nasium)

- Base "tenacity damage resist" on the buff should be pegged to 60%.
- Crit resistance should be pegged to 30%!
- Control Resist (if no diminishing returns come) should be kept at 40%.

Now, to elaborate. Right now Critical Strike resistance at 45% actually makes crits deal LESS damage than non crits. Why?

Well, everyone has a multiplier of 1.75 base for a crit (meaning in PVE crits do 75% more damage).

In PVP Crit Resistance does this:

1.75 * (1-45%) = NEW DAMAGE. What is this new damage? 96.25% of your NON CRIT value....... So to put this in laymans terms: Crits deal ~4% LESS DAMAGE than non crits.


Now, you can modify this in several ways (such as make crit resist only impact the severity, not the actual damage) but the easiest (IMO) is to merely make crit resist = 30%. What THIS does is 1.75 * (1-30%) = 1.22. Now crits would deal 22% more damage than non crits which seems fair.

If you merely did this, crits would crit for TOO much. This is where I think beefing UP the "damage resist" portion to 60% seems fair.

Great thread all around, glad to see the community is being heard.

Agreed to make tenacity a set-stat, and not based on gear. Great change. Could require some tweaking by classes, but ideally not.

Also, I agree with @ayroux and @xsayajinx1 above.
Crit suppression should be reduced, and base tenacity suppression should be increased.
Removing the arpen suppression hits the high-dr based classes significantly, while fixing the 'bug' helps the low-dr classes. All-in, as others have mentioned, this is a significant nerf to high-dr classes and a slight buff to low-dr classes. This change is not necessary and does not improve class balance.

The reason arpen suppression is so high on live is because arpen is 4x easier to stack than dr. I suggest something more like 50% base tenacity suppression, 20% crit tenacity suppression, 75% arpen tenacity suppression, and keep the 'bug' fix. I also suggest considering having tenacity apply to piercing damage.

I'm not sure what to do with cc suppression. Either keep it at ~40% or increase it. Are CWs still getting around this mechanic? If I recall, there was a change to tenacity that effectively let CWs bypass this suppression. Not sure if still the case.

either the suppresion dont make sense if i stack 20000 penetration why my stat to get wasted reduced to 5 with your example.
Because any class can go 250000 hp doesnt mean you have to go full hp and in module if you noticed almost every boon has hitpoints.
ALso what we have on live do not make sense defence shouldnt be worthless to stack( Dev said there is a bug also so) cant be the hp the only way to survive.

piercing damage resist 20% would be nice.

treesclimber

Imo the best way to rework everything would be rework the stats and add diminishing returns, something like flattened logarithmic expressions. Other option would be change the flat damage resistance from tenacity into additive DR but bump it up from 40ish to 80%.

slysnow

HRs/TRs are truly going to dominate in pvp now from what I gather. gwfs might as well not pvp any longer. CWs (my class) will be ok if our control isn't completely <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> on with those changes to control resist.

Just from reading it over it seems:

1. HR
2. TR
3. GF
4. Everyone else

Anyone else seeing this or am I over looking something? Also with no mention of buffing EB seems like its worth selling now while profitable as it looks like a global buff will render it useless.

mamalion1234

vordayn said:

josiahiyon said:

I'm not sure what to do with cc suppression. Either keep it at ~40% or increase it. Are CWs still getting around this mechanic? If I recall, there was a change to tenacity that effectively let CWs bypass this suppression. Not sure if still the case.

I do not think CWs bypass the control resist from tenacity, but a CW has to go down the Oppressor path and pick a Tier 4 feat Glacial Movement and Slot the Class Feature Orb of Imposition to see a noticeable effect on control. Even still, against a wearer with Transcendent Elven Battle Enchantment, it is a split second longer even with this extra control.

Control from TRs daze and slows - Smoke Bomb and Courage Breaker - are pretty good control powers. Sometimes with Courage Breaker I can barely move around. Having said that , it is one of the better mechanics for a TR in PvP at the moment.

The GF's Prone and Stuns - Bull Charge and Crescendo - last a fairly long time, usually the duration of the animation, hence the one-rotation kills if they link them up.

T.EB only helps against slows, immobilises, disables and stuns, so it is not any help against Prone. I do not know if Prone is affected by CC resist.

prone is affected and from control resist and from deflection. I dont stay for a long time especially if i deflect it.

feanor70118

Removal of armor pen resist just makes sense. It was a weird idea to begin, but for once I'd like to see the following fixes take less than the usual 6-18 months.

Removal of tenacity would be a good idea if, and only if, in pvp only at least, we walk back all the mod 6+ power creep that ruined this game.

Also, 'fixes' that nullify a player's hard-earned investment in gear, mastercrafting and so on just infuriate the player base and with good reason.

This approach does not come anywhere near fixing some other glaring problems with pvp, i.e. the still-there-like-a-flatulence-in-an-elevator GF one-rotation kill, uselessness of HR control abilities, overpowered no-skill TR standbys such as smoke bomb, courage breaker and SE, uselessness of CWs except as repelbots, lack of hard cooldowns on dailies for every class except HR, ludicrous overpowered character of DC and OP tanking and healing, and so on.

Also, though I play an HR I never wanted to return to mod 4 piercing damage and would like to see a real, effective rework of the class instead of the quick bad-idea fix that you had to resort to because you didn't give the dev the time, scope of project and budget he needed to do it correctly then.

ayroux

xuuul#9903 said:

* It’s kind of a stupid stat. The Defense stat (armor) is damage resist. Armor penetration is damage resist resist. So AP Resist is really damage resist resist resist. It’s just not right.

but its kinda stupid to have 100 = 1% AP and 400 = 1% DR , right ?

back in the day that was the reason why they were made like this, because of armor pen resistance, so now please do fix this aswell.

This is what I have found with some testing.... You can EASILY stack ARP up to the 100%+ range basically completely mitigating ALL damage resist. So classes that have Special DR on their own "layer" of DR (IE - CW/GF) excel more than classes that realied HEAVILY on DR in the past (GWF - Sprint/Unstoppable).

I like the idea of removing tenacity and all that stuff in favor of a buff... but I have to say I think this change might be a very negative one....

I have come to the conclusion that unless you want to mess up PVE... You will probably need to see 75% ARP resistance (making it 400:1 in PVP to make it equal to defense).

So this way, defense and ARP scale at the same rate. 400:1.

Crit resist REALLY needs to be nerfed back down to the ~30% range so that crits actually matter.

PVP "resist" (base DR in PVP) should be ~50%-60% IMO. This "equals out" the damage increase from reducing crit resist by increasing the DR on everyone.

This should ALL be a "buff" in PVP and tenacity on gear should be 100% removed.

treesclimber

xuuul#9903 said:

treesclimber said:

Imo the best way to rework everything would be rework the stats and add diminishing returns, something like flattened logarithmic expressions. Other option would be change the flat damage resistance from tenacity into additive DR but bump it up from 40ish to 80%.

Do not add diminishing returns, the armor penetration removal isnt such a big deal, sure the Great Weapon Fighter is suffering atm, but that it's fine, they can rework the Damage resistance that the GWF have, to Decrease the incoming damage.

But 40% DR 40% crit resistance and 40% CC resistance from tenacity should stay there and shouldnt be removed at any cost.

also adding diminishing returns? just come on man ... stop with useless suggestions
the way the system is it allowes for min/max some stats to create some build diversity. There are builds that depend on high recovery, high armor pen, high power, high deflect etc. Puttin diminishg returns (some of these stats already have soft caps) it would be a terrible idea, and a downgrade to class balance, the STATS are fine as they are.. so lets not focus on the stats anymore, and just focus on the classes please?

Class Balance = it means Powers/Feats/Class features , just do not talk about diminishing returns, they arent needed...OK !?

so lets pick up few classes that need class balance... GWF, TR. DC etc.

Not to offend but you're being dumb, we don't have diminishing returns now and were are the defense builds? It's not just about GWF's depending a lot on DR. Diminishing returns doesn't mean i can't build just this or that way, it simply means i'll have a greater progression at the beginning of a stat. specially amour penetration, defense and regeneration need this, the other stats would probably have to be modified but not to a point were a build for x or y stat wouldn't be viable, probably loose 4 or 5% of that stat contribution at extremely high amount, but that's it. Making arm pen worth 400/1% is not a good option, i see pve players (dps) going to etos/CN/ecc where all their summed offensive stats wouldn't be enough to ignore the boss DR, the gap between them and higher player would be even bigger, most of them don't even know how much RI they need for each enemy, pve players would not be happy about that, i'm thinking about it and i'm not(i'm not intruding pvp section i also pvp frequently), unless you want to split pvp and pve or change all the pve enemies DR way down.

jonkoca

Question, anyone fought a stunbot crit-build trapper HR under the new conditions..? And does their damage now outpace self-heals..?

If so, cc in pvp has definitely got to be taken a look at before all this goes live. I'm an HR, I could make a stunbot loadout in 5 minutes that, if trapper damage actually is now a threat... Well, gg everyone, don't even come down from spawn.

treesclimber

jonkoca said:

Question, anyone fought a stunbot crit-build trapper HR under the new conditions..? And does their damage now outpace self-heals..?

If so, cc in pvp has definitely got to be taken a look at before all this goes live. I'm an HR, I could make a stunbot loadout in 5 minutes that, if trapper damage actually is now a threat... Well, gg everyone, don't even come down from spawn.

I was thinking the same thing yesterday when i read the changes, well even if the changes don't stay this way amenar said crushing roots did not really get a fix, just a "for now" solution so....it's about time.

armadeonx

jonkoca said:

Question, anyone fought a stunbot crit-build trapper HR under the new conditions..? And does their damage now outpace self-heals..?

If so, cc in pvp has definitely got to be taken a look at before all this goes live. I'm an HR, I could make a stunbot loadout in 5 minutes that, if trapper damage actually is now a threat... Well, gg everyone, don't even come down from spawn.

I believe the HR perma-stun comes from the Class Feature 'Crushing Roots' and is actually a continuous series of micro-stuns. This power has no pvp-specific definition meaning HRs are able to keep you stunned until you're dead due to the insta-cooldown ability from the feat Swiftness Of The Fox.

To equalise the class they can either put in a pvp definition for Crushing Roots or introduce a short stun immunity for all players after say 3 consecutive stuns.