Keep in mind, when we use things that are in "their" opinion broken, and we as a community make videos of how great we are for one shooting heads in Tiamat or one shooting Drufi, they take stuff away from us. Just look at what they did to the High Prophet Cleric and the power share. I get it, 15 min runs of FBI are hot! But the fact that content designed to be difficult is now a cake walk, they always pull our collars and nerf the things we show boat on. Just because someone wants to make a show off livestream or a YouTube vid about how great they are.
Who in their right mind watches videos of someone else having fun? That takes time away from actually playing.
My final statement was, in a good group with other dps HV is the smart choice and other gear is the ego noobs choice. .
My statement allways was: Every group with ole sets is a noob group. I hope thats okay to say so. BTT: Im glad to loose some personel dps as a GWF and the group dps is higher and makes dungeons faster/bosses easier. Thats why i use sellsword instead of archon
Why is that, bc your opinion was more valid, then the developers, so everyone using the old set was an exploiter?
It is a personal choice, if you run an archon or a sellsword.
With a archon you cripple your personal dps and group dps, but compared to the other players your dps is higher, bc everyone benfits from the sellswords debuff and you are the only one getting the archons buff. So in the end you will stand higher in the paingiver charts.
Is it the smart move for a fast run, imo no. Is it the choice of most players, yes.
I dont think, that OP wants to berate other players or shame them into using other pets. He wants them to make an informed choice. Ofc the choice is still their own.
I never forced my opinion on other players, but when I was asked, to share my opinion, I was as blunt as the OP. As I said, we had this argument regarding HV set.
One last thing, there are many players with better knowledge about this games mechanics, then I have. I am grateful for their help and information. The information's value is the same, regardless if it is delivered blunt or in cotton candy.
@asterotg this so much this. It's good to see at least 1 person (you) gets it and it's called culture. In some cultures people tend to express in a blunt way (mine and my friends' both irl and NW, may be seen as rude) and in others in cotton candy (cat, becky, litaeers and rjc, may be seen and be felt as fake, this is my case and that of people I insteract with) and not accepting that is quite narrow-minded. Cap letter spam (firecat's posts) is very disrespectful in my culture but I didn't ask nor expect him not to write like that (unlike him, litaeers, becky and rjc) as I understand it's seen as normal by him and in his background.
Back on topic good sir, yes, it would be good if people give those uncapped debuff companions a shot, some may keep them as their one
if by blunt you mean judging them and calling them names and then congratulating each other for calling other people names and belittling them because they don't share your view.. then yeah you're blunt. lots of cultures, including the English, use ad hom to argue instead of actual logic and maths. it doesn't make it a good way to debate though. it just means you don't have any real ammunition. LOL. (hint it's not your culture and your friends culture and it's not being blunt.. it's called using an emotionally laden word choice to manipulate the conversation instead of using logic. I'm betting you do this regardless of the language you use )
i'd agree with the comment "shred companions are better if you have the gear for them. if you don't have the gear you should use what you have the gear for. I strongly believe everyone should be working towards this goal, but really everyone's opinion is valid on the matter because we can clear the content regardless of the pets we use. "
however, I take offense to a comment along the lines of "people who don't use what I say they should use are noobs and selfish but people who do use what I say are awesome and have good culture. "
and I do not use caps spam. doing one word in caps in a sentence to call it out is hardly spam. if I did an entire post in caps that would be caps spam.
It is a personal choice, if you run an archon or a sellsword.
With a archon you cripple your personal dps and group dps, but compared to the other players your dps is higher, bc everyone benfits from the sellswords debuff and you are the only one getting the archons buff. So in the end you will stand higher in the paingiver charts.
Is it the smart move for a fast run, imo no. Is it the choice of most players, yes.
I dont think, that OP wants to berate other players or shame them into using other pets. He wants them to make an informed choice. Ofc the choice is still their own.
I never forced my opinion on other players, but when I was asked, to share my opinion, I was as blunt as the OP. As I said, we had this argument regarding HV set.
One last thing, there are many players with better knowledge about this games mechanics, then I have. I am grateful for their help and information. The information's value is the same, regardless if it is delivered blunt or in cotton candy.
@asterotg this so much this. It's good to see at least 1 person (you) gets it and it's called culture. In some cultures people tend to express in a blunt way (mine and my friends' both irl and NW, may be seen as rude) and in others in cotton candy (cat, becky, litaeers and rjc, may be seen and be felt as fake, this is my case and that of people I insteract with) and not accepting that is quite narrow-minded. Cap letter spam (firecat's posts) is very disrespectful in my culture but I didn't ask nor expect him not to write like that (unlike him, litaeers, becky and rjc) as I understand it's seen as normal by him and in his background.
Back on topic good sir, yes, it would be good if people give those uncapped debuff companions a shot, some may keep them as their one
if by blunt you mean judging them and calling them names and then congratulating each other for calling other people names and belittling them because they don't share your view.. then yeah you're blunt. lots of cultures, including the English, use ad hom to argue instead of actual logic and maths. it doesn't make it a good way to debate though. it just means you don't have any real ammunition. LOL. (hint it's not your culture and your friends culture and it's not being blunt.. it's called using an emotionally laden word choice to manipulate the conversation instead of using logic. I'm betting you do this regardless of the language you use )
i'd agree with the comment "shred companions are better if you have the gear for them. if you don't have the gear you should use what you have the gear for. I strongly believe everyone should be working towards this goal, but really everyone's opinion is valid on the matter because we can clear the content regardless of the pets we use. "
however, I take offense to a comment along the lines of "people who don't use what I say they should use are noobs and selfish but people who do use what I say are awesome and have good culture. "
and I do not use caps spam. doing one word in caps in a sentence to call it out is hardly spam. if I did an entire post in caps that would be caps spam.
I dont know about OP, but I play on PC and we had this discussion, when loyal avenger gear was cheap, so the companion gear argument was not valid at that time.
If you want numbers, look at the posts of thefabricant. They speak for themself. As I said before, the numbers are the same, regardless the way they are presented. My example was a discussion with other BIS/ near BIS PvE players, who could change companions/gear at a whim. They asked for my opinion and I told it to them. If you look at the numbers provided, archons give less personal dmg and less group dmg, then a sellsword. Running with an archon as active companion, if you could run with a sellsword (as I said, we talk about ppl with the gear and the AD to change easily), so your better of in the paingiver charts is egoistic.
It is a personal choice, if you run an archon or a sellsword.
With a archon you cripple your personal dps and group dps, but compared to the other players your dps is higher, bc everyone benfits from the sellswords debuff and you are the only one getting the archons buff. So in the end you will stand higher in the paingiver charts.
Is it the smart move for a fast run, imo no. Is it the choice of most players, yes.
I dont think, that OP wants to berate other players or shame them into using other pets. He wants them to make an informed choice. Ofc the choice is still their own.
I never forced my opinion on other players, but when I was asked, to share my opinion, I was as blunt as the OP. As I said, we had this argument regarding HV set.
One last thing, there are many players with better knowledge about this games mechanics, then I have. I am grateful for their help and information. The information's value is the same, regardless if it is delivered blunt or in cotton candy.
@asterotg this so much this. It's good to see at least 1 person (you) gets it and it's called culture. In some cultures people tend to express in a blunt way (mine and my friends' both irl and NW, may be seen as rude) and in others in cotton candy (cat, becky, litaeers and rjc, may be seen and be felt as fake, this is my case and that of people I insteract with) and not accepting that is quite narrow-minded. Cap letter spam (firecat's posts) is very disrespectful in my culture but I didn't ask nor expect him not to write like that (unlike him, litaeers, becky and rjc) as I understand it's seen as normal by him and in his background.
Back on topic good sir, yes, it would be good if people give those uncapped debuff companions a shot, some may keep them as their one
if by blunt you mean judging them and calling them names and then congratulating each other for calling other people names and belittling them because they don't share your view.. then yeah you're blunt. lots of cultures, including the English, use ad hom to argue instead of actual logic and maths. it doesn't make it a good way to debate though. it just means you don't have any real ammunition. LOL. (hint it's not your culture and your friends culture and it's not being blunt.. it's called using an emotionally laden word choice to manipulate the conversation instead of using logic. I'm betting you do this regardless of the language you use )
i'd agree with the comment "shred companions are better if you have the gear for them. if you don't have the gear you should use what you have the gear for. I strongly believe everyone should be working towards this goal, but really everyone's opinion is valid on the matter because we can clear the content regardless of the pets we use. "
however, I take offense to a comment along the lines of "people who don't use what I say they should use are noobs and selfish but people who do use what I say are awesome and have good culture. "
and I do not use caps spam. doing one word in caps in a sentence to call it out is hardly spam. if I did an entire post in caps that would be caps spam.
I dont know about OP, but I play on PC and we had this discussion, when loyal avenger gear was cheap, so the companion gear argument was not valid at that time.
If you want numbers, look at the posts of thefabricant. They speak for themself. As I said before, the numbers are the same, regardless the way they are presented. My example was a discussion with other BIS/ near BIS PvE players, who could change companions/gear at a whim. They asked for my opinion and I told it to them. If you look at the numbers provided, archons give less personal dmg and less group dmg, then a sellsword. Running with an archon as active companion, if you could run with a sellsword (as I said, we talk about ppl with the gear and the AD to change easily), so your better of in the paingiver charts is egoistic.
if you want me to look at his posts why don't you point out the particular post you'd like me to read. It's not like he posts rarely. if the archon has less personal damage than the sellsword then why is it egoistical to keep an archon? I think most of us in this conversation are on the consoles. companion gear is very very hard to come by and very very expensive so it's extremely valid in this case. If you take too much of a hit on personal dps then giving a group buff is probably going to negate any benefit. especially if you are the main dps source and you're buffing the somewhat weak dps of support. I'd be willing to bet that all testing was done with the assumption that the gear would be of the same quality one vs the other. in that case yes. why wouldn't you run with the sellsword but given that the sellsword is going to cost millions to get to epic or legendary and millions for the right gear and will probably be nerfed as soon as everyone does this.. then is it really still the best idea to do it?
the sellsword may be BIS at this moment but as I said, why is it somehow bad to NOT run it vs something you do have the gear for when things are still being cleared in a fast and efficient manner?
I have a question (I read the answer somewhere once but I've forgotten).
The skill in question on the sellsword/con artist is the ability to shred 10% of enemy defence yes? Does this ability increase your damage on target by 10% even when your RI is already above their DR - and if so, perhaps the skill description is incorrect and should more rightly be "your target takes 10% more damage from all sources".
Also I agree with Cat that belittling someone is not a cultural trait, it's a personal one. I'm all for honesty but showing disrespect is another matter.
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Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
I have a question (I read the answer somewhere once but I've forgotten).
The skill in question on the sellsword/con artist is the ability to shred 10% of enemy defence yes? Does this ability increase your damage on target by 10% even when your RI is already above their DR - and if so, perhaps the skill description is incorrect and should more rightly be "your target takes 10% more damage from all sources".
Also I agree with Cat that belittling someone is not a cultural trait, it's a personal one. I'm all for honesty but showing disrespect is another matter.
The blue sellsword has a debuff. It is an uncapped stackable 10% debuff on the foe, so it buffs the party dmg for 10%. The formula for more debuffs and how they stack was posted by thefabricant before.
To elaborate, why egoistic ppl would run with an archon instead of a sellsword, here is an example. For simplicity, lets assume, there are no other buffs/debuffs, no dimishing returns stacking and the archon boosts your dmg for 5%. Everyone does 100% dmg. Ad a sellsword. Everyone does 110% dmg. Now everyone uses sellsword, everyone does 150% dmg. Here comes the twist, one is using archon and the other players use sellsword. 4 players do 140% dmg and the 5th, using archon, does 145%. Everyone deals less dmg, but the one using the archon deals, compared to the players using sellsword, more dmg. That is egoistic, if there is a choice.
I know, that the situation on consoles is different. Newer players on PC have the same problem. Longtime players, as myself and many others with good or BIS gear have switched companions many times over the years and have 1-3 loyal avenger rings/belts/ necklaces etc bound on their characters. Switching companions costs gold. Blue sellsword goes for a few hundred k AD.
If you have to invest millions of ADs into a companion, that might get nerfed in the future, you have a valid reason, to keep your current setup. If you have +50 kk AD spare change, all companion gear needed and the change would cost you next to nothing, running an archon is egoistic.
@armadeonx yes, the uncapped debuff of the sellsword/con artist/rebel mercenary (10%) and dancing shield (20%, this one can't stack with that of other dancing shields though) does work for you and the whole group even if everyone's RI is capped, that makes them absolute best in slot. Their debuff unlocks at blue quality (for 10% pets) and I think dancing shield's default quality is blue too anyway.
Post edited by jaime4312#3760 on
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santralafaxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,896Arc User
If the debuff companions get "fixed" the way bondings did, they will probably double in effectiveness. Just sayin'
It is a personal choice, if you run an archon or a sellsword.
With a archon you cripple your personal dps and group dps, but compared to the other players your dps is higher, bc everyone benfits from the sellswords debuff and you are the only one getting the archons buff. So in the end you will stand higher in the paingiver charts.
Is it the smart move for a fast run, imo no. Is it the choice of most players, yes.
I dont think, that OP wants to berate other players or shame them into using other pets. He wants them to make an informed choice. Ofc the choice is still their own.
I never forced my opinion on other players, but when I was asked, to share my opinion, I was as blunt as the OP. As I said, we had this argument regarding HV set.
One last thing, there are many players with better knowledge about this games mechanics, then I have. I am grateful for their help and information. The information's value is the same, regardless if it is delivered blunt or in cotton candy.
@asterotg this so much this. It's good to see at least 1 person (you) gets it and it's called culture. In some cultures people tend to express in a blunt way (mine and my friends' both irl and NW, may be seen as rude) and in others in cotton candy (cat, becky, litaeers and rjc, may be seen and be felt as fake, this is my case and that of people I insteract with) and not accepting that is quite narrow-minded. Cap letter spam (firecat's posts) is very disrespectful in my culture but I didn't ask nor expect him not to write like that (unlike him, litaeers, becky and rjc) as I understand it's seen as normal by him and in his background.
Back on topic good sir, yes, it would be good if people give those uncapped debuff companions a shot, some may keep them as their one
if by blunt you mean judging them and calling them names and then congratulating each other for calling other people names and belittling them because they don't share your view.. then yeah you're blunt. lots of cultures, including the English, use ad hom to argue instead of actual logic and maths. it doesn't make it a good way to debate though. it just means you don't have any real ammunition. LOL. (hint it's not your culture and your friends culture and it's not being blunt.. it's called using an emotionally laden word choice to manipulate the conversation instead of using logic. I'm betting you do this regardless of the language you use )
i'd agree with the comment "shred companions are better if you have the gear for them. if you don't have the gear you should use what you have the gear for. I strongly believe everyone should be working towards this goal, but really everyone's opinion is valid on the matter because we can clear the content regardless of the pets we use. "
however, I take offense to a comment along the lines of "people who don't use what I say they should use are noobs and selfish but people who do use what I say are awesome and have good culture. "
and I do not use caps spam. doing one word in caps in a sentence to call it out is hardly spam. if I did an entire post in caps that would be caps spam.
I dont know about OP, but I play on PC and we had this discussion, when loyal avenger gear was cheap, so the companion gear argument was not valid at that time.
If you want numbers, look at the posts of thefabricant. They speak for themself. As I said before, the numbers are the same, regardless the way they are presented. My example was a discussion with other BIS/ near BIS PvE players, who could change companions/gear at a whim. They asked for my opinion and I told it to them. If you look at the numbers provided, archons give less personal dmg and less group dmg, then a sellsword. Running with an archon as active companion, if you could run with a sellsword (as I said, we talk about ppl with the gear and the AD to change easily), so your better of in the paingiver charts is egoistic.
@asterotg I am on console and gear for sellsword/rebel mercenary is very hard to get so if not willing to grind the gear for it the con artist is a very viable alternative as it still is far superior to any non uncapped debuff companion alternative, 3 good or decent rings are not that hard to get so that's why that's my choice for summoned companion. @thefabricant once explained (not here and I can't paste link as it's from a site that can't be named) the way power has dimishing returns and in his example he used the 4k power bonus from the black ice horse, in a group with high powerhsaring the dps you get from it can be as low as sub 2%, so if 4k power can become that insignificant (reason why he stated at least for CW the 25% ap snail is better) in end game runs (many of the posters here are around that level) then the 800 power slot you lose with the con artist will translate into an extremely insignificant disadvantage (to sellsword and rebel mercenary) that again, is outweight by the 10% damage buff of its skill that makes it far superior to non uncapped debuff companions and The Legendary Outlaws (console guild) having the current fbi record is proof of that.
I found something I had saved on my email (sharp's explanation on power), as I am not redirecting to other webpages it shouldn't be considered as breaking that specific rule.
This I'm going to share was stated by @thefabricant and it's the reason going for con artist (if not having the gear for either of the other 10% pets) doesn't result in any significant dps loss in an endgame groups compared to having sellsword/rebel merceneary instead:
"I will use my toon as an example. Without a DC in a party (Solo) I have ~70k power with bonding procs. With a power mount, I would have ~74k power.
Now, if we look at the dps boost, it is as follows:
(1+74000/39908.04)/(1+70000/39908.04)-1= 0.03639406179, which is a 3.6% dps boost.
Now, in a party with a good DC, my power is at ~200k, if we add a power mount it will be at ~204k. Same math:
(1+204000/39908.04)/(1+200000/39908.04)-1=0.01667305522, which is a 1.67% dps boost. At that point, even the radiant weapon buff from the lion mount is better.
The snail mount might not directly boost your dps, but faster daily spamming = higher dps due to additional daily casts."
Take a look a his caculations and look at how even with the power get gets by himself the black ice horse only equals to a 3.6% dps boost so having a bit less because 1 less offense slot with the con artist is nothing significant and makes it a very viable choice (again, The Legendary Outlaws proved that with their fbi run)
If the debuff companions get "fixed" the way bondings did, they will probably double in effectiveness. Just sayin'
I just assume they will fall under the capped 200% debuff, and thus rendered (almost) useless, but still a good choice for when you are playing solo.
Most of the "high-end" players on Xbox that I play with have been using these companions for 6 months+, so this topic would have been more relevant half a year ago, before we knew of the plans to "look into" the de-buffs...
I assume the OP didn't know about those plans when making this topic, but the inevitable nerf is something to consider before going past rare quality on those de-buffers...
If the debuff companions get "fixed" the way bondings did, they will probably double in effectiveness. Just sayin'
@santralafax whenever those changes happen they will either be overnerfed or overbuffed, we'll see I wouldn't mind if they get the same treatment bodings got xD
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dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
On-topic question: I get that the debuff of Sellsword boosts whole party damage.
But Sellsword applies it's buff only on one targets it hits at a time? Meaning, it is conditional and specific? So in big crowds it could stand there hitting a medium level mobs over and over but not debuffing any of the 20 other mobs?
If so, in all but boss fights wouldn't most of the mobs NOT have the sellsword debuff? By contrast, the self-serving Archon is a buff up 24/7 on the player without conditions? If so, then better to run with Archon while trash-clearing then switch to Swellsword for bosses?
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
@dread4moor the uncapped debuff of sellsword/rebel mercenary/con artist is multi target (10%) so it can be aplied on groups of enemies and the dancing shield's is single target (20%). For both personal and group dps the aforementioned companions outperform any alternative by a lot, check page 2 to see Sharp's calculations and explanation, is not even close.
The archon is not a 24/7 up buff (if by that you meant the fire one) as you get the bonus when the enemy is at 49.99% hp or less and at that point things die a lot faster because of feats that increase damage as target's hp diminishes (like TR and SW) and sets (Orcus) so it's kind of meh. If you meant the air one for simplicity's sake you could say is a straight 5% dps boost but only for you and it sill gives you less dps than the uncapped debuff companions.
@niadan uncapped debuff companions work well with trash but yeah, their purpose is to get the team's effectiveness through the roof to kill bossses as fast as possible and in that regard they are unmatchable.
I run a dancing shield with my tank. If i unslot it, change setup, the difference is so significant...that's why I never unslot it, even though it succs in some bossfights. 20% plus effectiveness for the hole party...
Why is that, bc your opinion was more valid, then the developers, so everyone using the old set was an exploiter?
What you talking?? Where did i say exploiter? It was obvious the old set was not WAI, so they fixed it. I dont think it was an eyploit but way much OP and made runs comparing to "regular" PPL to easy. Calm down, m8...
If i unslot it, change setup, the difference is so significant...that's why I never unslot it, even though it succs in some bossfights.
20% plus effectiveness for the hole party...
This. So much this.
@schietindebux I second your statement. My GF has both dancing shield and con artist and if whatever team I'm running with doesn't have the former I summon mine, that 20% uncapped debuff is too good to pass and it is indeed noticeable if the team is lacking that kind of companions. Last night my alt sw (by no means high level let alone hdps) could do hellish rebuke hits that were in the 440k + - 750k +range and 8 million gates of hell in etos, I took screenshots of combat logs for both, the team had 3 con artists (including mine) I think.
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dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
@jaime4312#3760 said: > @dread4moor the uncapped debuff of sellsword/rebel mercenary/con artist is multi target (10%) so it can be aplied on groups of enemies and the dancing shield's is single target (20%). For both personal and group dps the aforementioned companions outperform any alternative by a lot, check page 2 to see Sharp's calculations and explanation, is not even close. > Thanks for the response. But just to be clear: The debuff applies to ALL mobs, NOT just those the sellsword hits? Please explain how it is applied. Is it an AoE?
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
This is really great discussion. I can't agree more about using debuff companions. I've been using Con Artist for a long time now and convinced most of my friends to switch from Fire Archon. The argument of losing power from offense slot for the debuff is explained perfectly here.
I wanted to talk a little bit more about Harper Bard vs Sword Trio. Before, I was convinced that Bard can be even better than Con Artist (especially for OP with increase to HP), but after reading this I realized that it's not that great to be honest. First thing, the power and crit buff is not that significant in high power share group, and it's even worse for crit since it can be wasted as many would be at 100% crit chance anyway. Also the increase to HP that translates to power is not that high and just like using 2/4k power vs 15/25% AP mount can be questionable. Second, since Bard doesn't attack he won't benefit from DC's BoB, right? Not to mention Protector's Camaraderie/Friendship. While the buff and 8% debuff sound better for fighting enemies that come from different directions like 1st phase of SVA, or Tiamat where there's not much focus fire, since the buff and debuff is area wide, it can't beat 10% debuff from Con Artist on boss fight where it matters the most. Is that correct?
@dread4moor the debuff is applied on a "cone" in front of the sellsword/other 10% pets, I haven't tested how many can be affected by it but I guess it is subject to the 5 target cap most aoe stuff in this game does. A very easy way to test yourself that the debuff is in fact aoe is, if you have any of the 3 pets at least blue quality (at which the skill is unlocked, further ranks don't affect it) go to SH and make the companion attack a target dummy, you'll see the attack's reach is wide enough that 2 dummies get that uncapped debuffied applied on them and you'll see it on their debuff bar, that can give you an idea of what's the reach of that skill.
@trzebiat#2067 I can't comment on Harper proccing insignia bonuses as I don't know that but I don't see why he wouldn't benefit from BoB, as long as he's in range he should get it. @rjc9000 may know the answer to your questions regarding insignia bonuses.
The problem with the Harper's uncapped debuff is that, besides being inferior to 10% and 20% it has a horrible uptime (tested and proved by @rjc9000 with ACT) because it stats working when enemies are kinda low health so in SVA/MSVA/Tiamat with a decent group that means it will be up only for a fraction of a second before mobs get melted then it will be gone so yes, in fights were it matters, boss fights, it cannot beat nor even come close to the 20%/10% uncapped debuff pets, it is significantly inferior. Much like it was pointed out on this thread (including yourself) and somewhere else by @thefabricant himself, there's a diminishing return on how much dps you get from power so that render's Harper's bard shy buff pointless (and con artist's lack of a 3rd offense slot pretty much something that doesn't impact your dps in any meanigful way) and yes, endgame dps should be running with 100% crit rate so that renders the other buff from the Harper worthless.
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frozenfirevrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,475Community Moderator
@defiantone99 yes but intil that happens they're the best, you could argue the same about bonding stones and other items, they will get nerfed someday but that doesn't mean we should refrain from using them now that they're best in slot and by far (both aforementioned companions and bondings).
So I know you guys never got Loyal Avenger Companion gear... so another reason people would be reluctant to switch... the expense of acquiring new Loyal Avenger gear if they don't already have it for the debuff companions. (Since the addition stat value on Loyal Avenger / Striker (belt) is worth more than any other companion gear.
Loyal Avenger = 1739 stats / Add *Enchantments (920 x 2) = 3579 total points Adorable / Barbarian = 869 stats / Add *Enchantments (920 x 2) = 2709 total points
*Assuming you are using Black Ice for highest total stats total/Brutals would be 840
What stats you're getting matters too. Loyal Avenger gear isn't BiS though it gives the most stats.
Something i don't understand in this discussion... If you equip the con artist as active and the fire archon as passive, you still benefit the 5% dps buff from the archon under 50% hp. Or i missed simething ? So where is the problem ?
Well... I run both. FA random, and CA if I run with friends/guild running CA too (sellsword gear is a annoying grind... and a fu... chance to get it...).
The problem is random...nobody cares about "debuffs" often ppl don't know about it... it's all about personal DPS and paingiver. Sad? Annoying? Selfish? Yes...sure...but it is how it is...
And like someone said above...whats the problem with all that? If anyone can finish all content without issue it doesnt matter if it takes 5 minutes more or less. Except you wanna do a speed run... MSVA 4k group, 3 DC...7 Minutes run... no one has debuff companion... wasn't it fast enough? We're talking in seconds now?
You can only be "perfect" and BiS groupwise if you're running with the same group all day and all know what they're doing.
Yes it is possible to have summoned con artist and fire archon as passive however to answer your qeustion, what your missing is that what's being discussed here is 10% uncapped debuff pets vs fire archon as summoned and the latter is still a very popular choice which happens to be objectively inferior not only for summoner but does nothing for the team.
@terrasight#2000 yeah you can finish content in a decent amount of time regardless of companion choice as long as there's good class synergy but if there's a superior choice and it is easy to go for it (con artist for us console users) and benefits not only the summoner but the whole group then it is logical to go for it, reason why I disagree with most of your post.
In my case I have CA always as summoned because no matter how my teammates are, they get the benefit from the uncapped debuff.
It's ok if you disagree But how I said, I'm running CA too when I run with my mates...
And yeah... be sure I know what you mean... and I don't said it's wrong. That's the reason I still grind for the sellsword gear to set it as "all time companion"... but until I get all the pieces I want, I still go with my combination.
Why is that, bc your opinion was more valid, then the developers, so everyone using the old set was an exploiter?
What you talking?? Where did i say exploiter? It was obvious the old set was not WAI, so they fixed it. I dont think it was an eyploit but way much OP and made runs comparing to "regular" PPL to easy. Calm down, m8...
Sorry, I might be a little bit sensitive on this topic. After using HV and HP for years I did keep them for future use, when lvl cap was raised. A few month later ppl in game and in the forum started crying 'cheat' and 'exploit', when you said, that you are using an old set. They were BIS, they were OP, when HV debuff stacked, good old times with 4 CW/ 1 DC CN runs.^^
Why is that, bc your opinion was more valid, then the developers, so everyone using the old set was an exploiter?
What you talking?? Where did i say exploiter? It was obvious the old set was not WAI, so they fixed it. I dont think it was an eyploit but way much OP and made runs comparing to "regular" PPL to easy. Calm down, m8...
hey this isn't out of line. remember when they called everyone an exploiter for looking in the chest at the end of a dungeon and deciding not to take the loot? lol
Comments
Since I can't be there, I'll trust you to lash yourself. 10 should do.
i'd agree with the comment "shred companions are better if you have the gear for them. if you don't have the gear you should use what you have the gear for. I strongly believe everyone should be working towards this goal, but really everyone's opinion is valid on the matter because we can clear the content regardless of the pets we use. "
however, I take offense to a comment along the lines of "people who don't use what I say they should use are noobs and selfish but people who do use what I say are awesome and have good culture. "
and I do not use caps spam. doing one word in caps in a sentence to call it out is hardly spam. if I did an entire post in caps that would be caps spam.
If you want numbers, look at the posts of thefabricant. They speak for themself. As I said before, the numbers are the same, regardless the way they are presented. My example was a discussion with other BIS/ near BIS PvE players, who could change companions/gear at a whim. They asked for my opinion and I told it to them. If you look at the numbers provided, archons give less personal dmg and less group dmg, then a sellsword. Running with an archon as active companion, if you could run with a sellsword (as I said, we talk about ppl with the gear and the AD to change easily), so your better of in the paingiver charts is egoistic.
the sellsword may be BIS at this moment but as I said, why is it somehow bad to NOT run it vs something you do have the gear for when things are still being cleared in a fast and efficient manner?
The skill in question on the sellsword/con artist is the ability to shred 10% of enemy defence yes? Does this ability increase your damage on target by 10% even when your RI is already above their DR - and if so, perhaps the skill description is incorrect and should more rightly be "your target takes 10% more damage from all sources".
Also I agree with Cat that belittling someone is not a cultural trait, it's a personal one. I'm all for honesty but showing disrespect is another matter.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
To elaborate, why egoistic ppl would run with an archon instead of a sellsword, here is an example. For simplicity, lets assume, there are no other buffs/debuffs, no dimishing returns stacking and the archon boosts your dmg for 5%. Everyone does 100% dmg. Ad a sellsword. Everyone does 110% dmg. Now everyone uses sellsword, everyone does 150% dmg. Here comes the twist, one is using archon and the other players use sellsword. 4 players do 140% dmg and the 5th, using archon, does 145%. Everyone deals less dmg, but the one using the archon deals, compared to the players using sellsword, more dmg. That is egoistic, if there is a choice.
I know, that the situation on consoles is different. Newer players on PC have the same problem. Longtime players, as myself and many others with good or BIS gear have switched companions many times over the years and have 1-3 loyal avenger rings/belts/ necklaces etc bound on their characters. Switching companions costs gold. Blue sellsword goes for a few hundred k AD.
If you have to invest millions of ADs into a companion, that might get nerfed in the future, you have a valid reason, to keep your current setup. If you have +50 kk AD spare change, all companion gear needed and the change would cost you next to nothing, running an archon is egoistic.
I found something I had saved on my email (sharp's explanation on power), as I am not redirecting to other webpages it shouldn't be considered as breaking that specific rule.
This I'm going to share was stated by @thefabricant and it's the reason going for con artist (if not having the gear for either of the other 10% pets) doesn't result in any significant dps loss in an endgame groups compared to having sellsword/rebel merceneary instead:
"I will use my toon as an example. Without a DC in a party (Solo) I have ~70k power with bonding procs. With a power mount, I would have ~74k power.
Now, if we look at the dps boost, it is as follows:
(1+74000/39908.04)/(1+70000/39908.04)-1= 0.03639406179, which is a 3.6% dps boost.
Now, in a party with a good DC, my power is at ~200k, if we add a power mount it will be at ~204k. Same math:
(1+204000/39908.04)/(1+200000/39908.04)-1=0.01667305522, which is a 1.67% dps boost. At that point, even the radiant weapon buff from the lion mount is better.
The snail mount might not directly boost your dps, but faster daily spamming = higher dps due to additional daily casts."
Take a look a his caculations and look at how even with the power get gets by himself the black ice horse only equals to a 3.6% dps boost so having a bit less because 1 less offense slot with the con artist is nothing significant and makes it a very viable choice (again, The Legendary Outlaws proved that with their fbi run)
Most of the "high-end" players on Xbox that I play with have been using these companions for 6 months+, so this topic would have been more relevant half a year ago, before we knew of the plans to "look into" the de-buffs...
I assume the OP didn't know about those plans when making this topic, but the inevitable nerf is something to consider before going past rare quality on those de-buffers...
I get that the debuff of Sellsword boosts whole party damage.
But Sellsword applies it's buff only on one targets it hits at a time?
Meaning, it is conditional and specific?
So in big crowds it could stand there hitting a medium level mobs over and over but not debuffing any of the 20 other mobs?
If so, in all but boss fights wouldn't most of the mobs NOT have the sellsword debuff?
By contrast, the self-serving Archon is a buff up 24/7 on the player without conditions?
If so, then better to run with Archon while trash-clearing then switch to Swellsword for bosses?
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
The archon is not a 24/7 up buff (if by that you meant the fire one) as you get the bonus when the enemy is at 49.99% hp or less and at that point things die a lot faster because of feats that increase damage as target's hp diminishes (like TR and SW) and sets (Orcus) so it's kind of meh. If you meant the air one for simplicity's sake you could say is a straight 5% dps boost but only for you and it sill gives you less dps than the uncapped debuff companions.
@niadan uncapped debuff companions work well with trash but yeah, their purpose is to get the team's effectiveness through the roof to kill bossses as fast as possible and in that regard they are unmatchable.
If i unslot it, change setup, the difference is so significant...that's why I never unslot it, even though it succs in some bossfights.
20% plus effectiveness for the hole party...
@schietindebux I second your statement. My GF has both dancing shield and con artist and if whatever team I'm running with doesn't have the former I summon mine, that 20% uncapped debuff is too good to pass and it is indeed noticeable if the team is lacking that kind of companions. Last night my alt sw (by no means high level let alone hdps) could do hellish rebuke hits that were in the 440k + - 750k +range and 8 million gates of hell in etos, I took screenshots of combat logs for both, the team had 3 con artists (including mine) I think.
> @dread4moor the uncapped debuff of sellsword/rebel mercenary/con artist is multi target (10%) so it can be aplied on groups of enemies and the dancing shield's is single target (20%). For both personal and group dps the aforementioned companions outperform any alternative by a lot, check page 2 to see Sharp's calculations and explanation, is not even close.
>
Thanks for the response. But just to be clear:
The debuff applies to ALL mobs, NOT just those the sellsword hits? Please explain how it is applied. Is it an AoE?
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
I wanted to talk a little bit more about Harper Bard vs Sword Trio. Before, I was convinced that Bard can be even better than Con Artist (especially for OP with increase to HP), but after reading this I realized that it's not that great to be honest. First thing, the power and crit buff is not that significant in high power share group, and it's even worse for crit since it can be wasted as many would be at 100% crit chance anyway. Also the increase to HP that translates to power is not that high and just like using 2/4k power vs 15/25% AP mount can be questionable. Second, since Bard doesn't attack he won't benefit from DC's BoB, right? Not to mention Protector's Camaraderie/Friendship. While the buff and 8% debuff sound better for fighting enemies that come from different directions like 1st phase of SVA, or Tiamat where there's not much focus fire, since the buff and debuff is area wide, it can't beat 10% debuff from Con Artist on boss fight where it matters the most. Is that correct?
@trzebiat#2067 I can't comment on Harper proccing insignia bonuses as I don't know that but I don't see why he wouldn't benefit from BoB, as long as he's in range he should get it. @rjc9000 may know the answer to your questions regarding insignia bonuses.
The problem with the Harper's uncapped debuff is that, besides being inferior to 10% and 20% it has a horrible uptime (tested and proved by @rjc9000 with ACT) because it stats working when enemies are kinda low health so in SVA/MSVA/Tiamat with a decent group that means it will be up only for a fraction of a second before mobs get melted then it will be gone so yes, in fights were it matters, boss fights, it cannot beat nor even come close to the 20%/10% uncapped debuff pets, it is significantly inferior. Much like it was pointed out on this thread (including yourself) and somewhere else by @thefabricant himself, there's a diminishing return on how much dps you get from power so that render's Harper's bard shy buff pointless (and con artist's lack of a 3rd offense slot pretty much something that doesn't impact your dps in any meanigful way) and yes, endgame dps should be running with 100% crit rate so that renders the other buff from the Harper worthless.
If you equip the con artist as active and the fire archon as passive, you still benefit the 5% dps buff from the archon under 50% hp.
Or i missed simething ?
So where is the problem ?
The problem is random...nobody cares about "debuffs" often ppl don't know about it... it's all about personal DPS and paingiver. Sad? Annoying? Selfish? Yes...sure...but it is how it is...
And like someone said above...whats the problem with all that? If anyone can finish all content without issue it doesnt matter if it takes 5 minutes more or less. Except you wanna do a speed run...
MSVA 4k group, 3 DC...7 Minutes run... no one has debuff companion... wasn't it fast enough? We're talking in seconds now?
You can only be "perfect" and BiS groupwise if you're running with the same group all day and all know what they're doing.
Yes it is possible to have summoned con artist and fire archon as passive however to answer your qeustion, what your missing is that what's being discussed here is 10% uncapped debuff pets vs fire archon as summoned and the latter is still a very popular choice which happens to be objectively inferior not only for summoner but does nothing for the team.
@terrasight#2000 yeah you can finish content in a decent amount of time regardless of companion choice as long as there's good class synergy but if there's a superior choice and it is easy to go for it (con artist for us console users) and benefits not only the summoner but the whole group then it is logical to go for it, reason why I disagree with most of your post.
In my case I have CA always as summoned because no matter how my teammates are, they get the benefit from the uncapped debuff.
And yeah... be sure I know what you mean... and I don't said it's wrong. That's the reason I still grind for the sellsword gear to set it as "all time companion"... but until I get all the pieces I want, I still go with my combination.