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A possible bug? With Guardian Fighter, Iron Vanguard paragon path. Pvp.
soultip
Member Posts: 6 Arc User
Hey there,
I've come here to discuss a possible bug/interaction that i have noticed with the Guardian Fighter class. Because for some reason everyone i speak to in game about it either denies it or says that it is just procing to high and that it is not a bug?
I'm guessing you're wondering what this thing is. Well to be honest i'm not entirely sure but there is some form of bug/interaction with a Guardian Fighters combat challenge mark (tab) and the atwill threating rush, this is known as double marking. However this definitely needs looking at considering I have personally tested this many times and have seen the damage difference. Now i refuse to use it because in my opinion it is completely broken.
There's been rumors that the marks stacking causes the combat challenge tab to double it's effect, for example the lowered damage resistance lowered that is double is = to having 80% resistance ignored. Now when you have like 70% resistance ignored anyway from your armor pen stat it kind of does seem broken? Having 150% resistance ignored, that's basically the same as the best Gwf's have in pvp.
Another rumor is that the threat you build through your combat challenge is doubled also and this helps stack combat advantage against your target. Not sure if this one is true but if so then it will also increase damage considerably.
The main reason i am bringing this to your attention is to discover exactly what happens when a Iron Vanguard Guardian Fighter double marks, also to state the fact that this is the only viable build in pvp for GF right now. Every Guardian Fighter that is Iron Vanguard uses this double mark. I know you have made changes to other classes and made other build paths viable and more fun to play so i urge you to do the same with this class.
I have had many discussions/arguements about this topic, so if you are going to argue about this let me ask you one question. How can a tempory mark from an atwill increase the effect of a Guardian Fighters tab to the point their damage is nearly doubled? I could understand if the interaction was to apply the effect of it in an aoe effect to aid holding aggro of grouped up mobs in PVE, but this is not the case. Something is not right.
From personal experience playing the class i know for a fact using double mark takes less skill and the damage increase from using it is definitely noticeable. I hope someone from cryptic reads this and looks into it. This is making pvp for GF very one directional, either you go Iron Vanguard and use double mark and if you do not you are considered not viable because this is too broken.
Thanks for your time and reading.
I've come here to discuss a possible bug/interaction that i have noticed with the Guardian Fighter class. Because for some reason everyone i speak to in game about it either denies it or says that it is just procing to high and that it is not a bug?
I'm guessing you're wondering what this thing is. Well to be honest i'm not entirely sure but there is some form of bug/interaction with a Guardian Fighters combat challenge mark (tab) and the atwill threating rush, this is known as double marking. However this definitely needs looking at considering I have personally tested this many times and have seen the damage difference. Now i refuse to use it because in my opinion it is completely broken.
There's been rumors that the marks stacking causes the combat challenge tab to double it's effect, for example the lowered damage resistance lowered that is double is = to having 80% resistance ignored. Now when you have like 70% resistance ignored anyway from your armor pen stat it kind of does seem broken? Having 150% resistance ignored, that's basically the same as the best Gwf's have in pvp.
Another rumor is that the threat you build through your combat challenge is doubled also and this helps stack combat advantage against your target. Not sure if this one is true but if so then it will also increase damage considerably.
The main reason i am bringing this to your attention is to discover exactly what happens when a Iron Vanguard Guardian Fighter double marks, also to state the fact that this is the only viable build in pvp for GF right now. Every Guardian Fighter that is Iron Vanguard uses this double mark. I know you have made changes to other classes and made other build paths viable and more fun to play so i urge you to do the same with this class.
I have had many discussions/arguements about this topic, so if you are going to argue about this let me ask you one question. How can a tempory mark from an atwill increase the effect of a Guardian Fighters tab to the point their damage is nearly doubled? I could understand if the interaction was to apply the effect of it in an aoe effect to aid holding aggro of grouped up mobs in PVE, but this is not the case. Something is not right.
From personal experience playing the class i know for a fact using double mark takes less skill and the damage increase from using it is definitely noticeable. I hope someone from cryptic reads this and looks into it. This is making pvp for GF very one directional, either you go Iron Vanguard and use double mark and if you do not you are considered not viable because this is too broken.
Thanks for your time and reading.
8
Comments
WAI, discussed and anylized at length by @michela123 and others.
Read her summary:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1A9KKO7E4RsSDbv3g4fuuNyf8P7ZMCF08id8Q3pSHHmI/edit#gid=0
Edit: wrong link. Here it is:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N8Y_AmqnnhOdaCT2Sg9e-OcC0m6q5nUJLfujZVsI1Z0/edit?usp=sharing
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
If both paragon paths were offered similar abilities (I.e. Another mark for SM and an AOE debuff for IV) then people would choose more freely which style they prefer. They would be able to do well both in PVE and PVP without having to sacrifice.
We used to make a stink about this on the forums, DEVS said WAI (if I remember right).
But yes, double mark is a MASSIVE damage bonus for the GWF and GF classes. The problem with flat out removing these though is it massively nerfs the class. Maybe it needs it, but just be prepared for 2 classes to potentially be HAMSTER if this happens.
Frankly, my honest opinion about this... Its only a "problem" in PVP. You cant reliably double mark in PVE atleast you give up other things to do this considering daring shout has a CD and TR has charges. On GF, Tab has no CD but it has cast time and single target. TR also cast time. So it takes time.
Now, since its really only a problem in PVP. What we are REALLY asking is "Please spend time, looking into an issue and then spend time fixing it".
What I would RATHER have them do, is spend time fixing PVP - not just 2 classes.
So I would be inclined to disagree with you here mate. I dont want them spending any DEV time on anything BUT fixing PVP.
How? Multiple threads have discussed this. The two most recent and encompassing:
1) http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1228337/lesson-from-wow-what-neverwinter-could-learn-from-the-giant-in-pvp-item-standardization/p1
2)
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1227023/pvp-the-issues-all-of-them/p1
If they spend any time on anything, this is one of the BEST things they could do for the state of this game.
I have proven myself that Gf can be effective without using this bug, i have beaten many of the best in pvp. Including GF's that are using double mark.
I only suggest this fix for class balance, yes it will nerf the classes. That means it will take more skill to play them.
Cryptic are always going on about class balance and variety, so why not change this?
Swordmaster using WMS, get´s a 30% debuff on the target, added to mark getting 50% + effectiveness by that.
SM should beat IV in terms of debuff , or did I miss something? TR is a group-buff though, WMS isn´t.
Any Mark gives you combat advantage, also no argument to favor TR, since mark works same.
Only for att wills not encounters/dailies
Unless feated.
Here's another theory, there are too many people with too many different theories on this, can someone from cryptic do their job and look into this?
You might find the results of testing it match the results of the spreadsheet that someone linked above, instead of your made up, imaginary results.
Mark in general in pvp is a glitchy mess and has been for a long time, but since it doesn't impact PvE the devs don't seem to mind.
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CW, TR, DC, HR can dodge with immunity frames. GF can shield to make damage negligable, SW can immediately lifesteal the damage back with Warlocks bargain/Borrowed time/soulsparks, Pally has a daily with full life heal and depending on feat path can tank the damage or return it. GWF has to hope that he survives the initial piercing damage with enough health to either lifesteal it back (if he's lucky) or run to mid and get a heal/support.
I will say this though, and double mark is included in this statement. At complete end game BIS all classes are decently balanced imho. Some can't kill others, some can kill only a few, some can only survive, but they all have their roles and are able to perform them effectively. The REAL problem is this is only when you are BIS with lion mount, gear, insignias, boon, HP chest piece, full artifacts, best build... etc.
You should never have to aim for this to finally reach balance. This is the problem, you may be one shotting pugs with double mark but you'll not do it to a BIS player. You will likely both double mark each other and either skill it out or RNG it out depending on what procs when.
All these class issues such as double mark, pally aura reflect, DC AA spam, etc. etc. etc. are irrelevant unless the big picture is going to be fixed. Nerf this and you've gotten rid of GFs ability to kill a GWF and GWF's ability to kill most anything. Nuances like this should be dealt with last. Class balance, and more importantly balancing players gear/IL are top priority imho. Everything else is like tearing a band aid off this class and applying it to that classes wound.
old good times where Trs were the means to gain it, followed soon after by party buff oriented hrs.
(STOLEN)
Double Mark Bug
A GF IV path has double marking mechanic which comes from his Tab + Threatening rush. Effectively giving them x1.8 - x2.0 damage. This allows them to hit with damage which is really hard to achieve purely based on stats. Since most GFs spec for double marking for the sole reason, tankiness can be achieved via their Shield.
Double marking needs to be fixed. If it is a bug, it needs to be fixed guys. Too long have we all played with broken improper scaling making paths too OP. We need to stop this. Fixes are important to allow Skill to develop.
Damage Parameters of GF are already good enough for them to be a threat in PvP. And with the above mentioned section of Damage Reduction, they have no issues fighting.
Here is a typical rotation of a GF:
Tab Mark >> Threatening Rush >> Wheel Fire Buff >> ITF (use with shield to cancel animation, gain immunity and 80% damage reduction) >> Bull Charge (use with shield to cancel animation, gain immunity and 80% damage reduction) >> Griffon's Wrath (here shield is not used as it bugs Griffon's Wrath to deal 0 damage) the stun itself procs crushing pin which makes their overall damage go up alot.
Effectively the damage is approximately around: 20% ITF + 10% (assuming 20 Charisma) + 10% combat advantage stat bonus + 15% Temp HP Conqueror Feat + 10% Crushing Pin + 5% Combat Superiority = 30% Wheel Fire Buff = 100%. Now factor in x2 Marks = 200%+ (This is a rough estimate, I haven't factored in many other things). Add Debuffs on top of that. It really gets messed up after that. GWF marks make it worse. SM Paths add more stuff to this section.
Here are a few suggestions:
1. Reduce damage parameters, bring them inline with other DPS machines.
2. Make them glass cannons. Fixing their Sheild Animation Cancellation bug and Damage Reduction, the overall damage output not being touched would make Playing a GF seem skillful and would allow them a Do or Die situation.
It is hard to trust the accuracy of your tests when you don’t know which value is the final damage in the combat logs. As everyone who has ever tested anything certainly knows, the number in brackets represents the damage BEFORE marks and other debuffs are applied, not after. You are clearly not aware of this very basic (but also fundamental) piece of information, since you claim that your Bull Charge hit for 88k and 50k, while it instead hit for 45k and 31k.