Fix Hallowed Ground and Divine Armor

nexiga

The fact that you are unable to generate AP while using these 2 dailies is simply ridiculous. I think a lot of build options will become available once these are fixed (or changed if they weren't broken). Endgame content pretty much requires high AP gain in order to use dailies more frequently so it doesn't make sense to cripple 2 dailies. I can already think of 2 DO builds that would rival AC buff/debuff builds if this change was implemented.

Please support so we can finally have a couple of skills fixed. It's a start right?

putzboy78

they aren't broken, the ap gain while proc'd was done to prevent having 100% up time. So they were nerfed.

beckylunatic

The great equalizer would be to have the remaining dailies (this is applied across all classes) with a duration to disable AP gain for that duration. The state of the game is currently most-but-not-all.

plavia

Ii agree with @nexiga
it makes DO play very annoying

1) all classes spam daily now, i guess this is what the devlopers wants. why should DO be different

2) if i use holy fervor, half of the time is not effective (if i dont use it i am realy bad buffer). why should a class feature be half effective?

3) if iuse hastering light i refersh all my powers, but again no AP gain.

4) i use devoted sigil to refill my daily so i proc Artificer's Persuasion mount bonus. I get tons of recovery and AP gain for 15 sec but again its useless


if you don't want us to spam daily, then reduce the AP gain from all sources by 80% for all classes
or put a timer of 40sec on HG (and AA) and at least let us get AP in between

pitshade

IIRC the AP generation block came about just prior to and during Mod 1 when the devs were removing the ability of some powers to generate AP per target hit. This was back when we had soft caps on stats and much smaller amounts on items. 3K recovery was the point that harsh diminishing returns set in. Now we have 3 or 4x that much, plus AP %boosting, pets, mounts, etc... The game has moved on but the DC class is still mostly living in the Mod 5 rework. It's always a mixed bag to have your class 'rebalanced' but in this case it is disappointing that we aren't getting that next week.

xinexix

Yeah i just don't understand it (this is nexiga). It's not like other classes don't have broken skills, but the DC is restricted to one paragon and one build because of broken skills.

namelesshero347

Great idea! Accidentally break one power and made it OP, lets purposefully break some other powers to bring other builds up to par. Power creep? That's non-sense. No such thing. Who doesn't want to play a game where you just have to spam one power to win.

dread4moor

DCs went through several tumultuous evolutions.
Starting with Righteousness changes (Mod 1, 3, 5) which made folks howl in anger ("less personal healing") then smile in satisfaction (greater party healing).
Net: Improvement.
And the Divinity/Empowerment rework (Mod5) made folks howl in anger ("this too complicated") and eventually smile in satisfaction at the increased diversity of encounter choices and effects.
Net: Improvement.
Same with AP limitation. Howls of indignation then shrugs. HG was still powerful. With careful timing and maximal rotation utility good up times still happen... just no Perma-HG.
Even in this era of AC/Anointed Army addiction, HG is still a powerful situational DPS boost. DOs can still be awesome buffing machines no matter what the FOTM LFG crowd say.
Net: Improvement.
Roll back the AP restriction? Nah.
Apply it to everyone maybe, but no benefit to removing it from HG at this point.

mamalion1234

DO this please and give the last shot to oracle . DO you know that also a champion has access to the hallowed ground?
THAT means if you able to spam hg then a champion will do non stop both dailies.

YOU want again DIVINE ORACLE VIABLE?: POD Defence debuff for pve But with smaller value not jump on the roof a10% would be nice ( pvp can stay same).

armadeonx

A DC with high AP gain can regain full AP within 5 seconds or so. With a 15 sec uptime on the power and an average of 5-10 secs down you're looking at a total benefit of 26.25% - 21% boost to DR and DPS throughout a fight.

I'd be fine with HG not having an AP block if it were toned down to the average, e.g. able to perma the skill but it only providing a 25% boost.

The real problem of course is that AC clerics also have access to the skill. With v. high AP gain they'd be able to perma-HG AND use AA at the same time...

devlin

If HG were to be divine oracle exclusive, I'd agree with allowing AP gain to occur "normally". But with ACDC being able to cast HG + AA, that would be just a tad bit overpowered

xinexix

Welp i tried... I guess the divine oracle just wasn't meant to be. The community has spoken. Who knows though, maybe we'll see a rework in a few years.

Thanks for the feedback.

beckylunatic

pitshade said:

IIRC the AP generation block came about just prior to and during Mod 1 when the devs were removing the ability of some powers to generate AP per target hit. This was back when we had soft caps on stats and much smaller amounts on items. 3K recovery was the point that harsh diminishing returns set in. Now we have 3 or 4x that much, plus AP %boosting, pets, mounts, etc... The game has moved on but the DC class is still mostly living in the Mod 5 rework. It's always a mixed bag to have your class 'rebalanced' but in this case it is disappointing that we aren't getting that next week.

I definitely don't want to go into ancient patch notes right now to generate the history of what dailies had durational AP gain removed and when (might be an interesting post for an unnamed blog though), but I am relatively certain the first to go was Lurker's Assault (TR), because the devs did not want players maintaining 100% uptime. They did the same to Hallowed Ground, for the same reason, and Divine Armor. They did it to Supremacy of Steel (GF) when people were making reflect builds around daily uptime. They did it to the pally bubble. Buff dailies that are exceptions do not fit these past design principles, and if you want to argue them into consistency, you might as well be asking for anything they've missed to have AP gain disabled. This is not "the community speaking", dear OP; this is the community trying to educate you.

You can also make a case that ALL the stuff that restores AP directly and ignores blocks on AP recovery has broken their own principles. I can come really close to spamming HG on a DO/DC with a snail and AP gain cloak, and it would probably be even closer with a Burning set.

pitshade

"You can also make a case that ALL the stuff that restores AP directly and ignores blocks on AP recovery has broken their own principles. "

That just raises the questions of Which Principles and Which Devs, going back to what I said about living partially still in Mod 5. These dailies were designed in an environment where we weren't supposed to be spamming them. Now we have too many ways to increase AP and it seems unlikely the current devs are going to nerf all the artifacts, pets, boons and mounts.

For consistency, perhaps the devs should remove the AP gen blocks but then put a cooldown on dailies across the board - no more perma anything but also not making the AP boost toys worthless.

I am all for buffing DO - still not happy about being AC - but the simple truth is that DO paragon abilities simple lack any real use in a support role. Foresight used to be THE cleric ability at one point but the era of one shots has rendered it obsolete (maybe the new SC will give it new life?) Hammer of Fate was nerfed long ago and isn't what parties are wanting from DCs. Brand is my favorite at will, but again has no party synergy. Terrifying Insight is only a personal boost (maybe this could be changed but the the devs are unlikely to make it ignore the cap) Apart from Foresight again, none of what people wanted from clerics when DO was on top, are paragon abilities.

silverkelt

mod 6 broke alot of paths paragons, dc never really got a true rework.. im sure when it happens, mostly everyone will be and a little vexed about it.

That is the nature of thier reworks =p..

look at the poor SW.. still cant figure out why they nerf them every two weeks on average.. like what the heck.

beckylunatic

pitshade said:

That just raises the questions of Which Principles and Which Devs, going back to what I said about living partially still in Mod 5.

Oh, certainly. And snarky interjections about whether it's ok to have a permanent daily as long as you paid enough for it.

re: warlocks
I forgot that Tyrannical Threat was another that had durational AP gain disabled.

devlin

Well on preview the DC changes are in. Looks interesting and addresses the topic of this post.

plavia

xinexix said:

Welp i tried... I guess the divine oracle just wasn't meant to be. The community has spoken. Who knows though, maybe we'll see a rework in a few years.



Thanks for the feedback.

99.999% of the TR hit me with Shocking Excution on the first sec of a match (they keep the frist SE specialy for clarics)
i checked the TR forum section, i don't see the other 0.001% Whisperknifes complain about it.

i guess clarics prefer ramen noodles


there are DC changes on preview?

armadeonx

The DC changes are not really a nerf. Everyone knew that AA is/was an immortality skill and such things are not allowed in the game. It will now be possible to have HG and AA up simultaneously which will be a huge DPS buff at the cost of having to watch where you stand.

If you throw in an empowered Astral Shield on top of HG & AA you're back to near immortality anyway, the only choice for DC's will be 'do I empower AS or BTS?' and this will be situational depending on the survivability of the group they are in.

Anyone who does not understand this does not understand the DC class very well.

katbozejziemi

http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/9005213-patch-notes-11/18/14
Divine Armor: The Cleric can no longer generate AP while affected by their own Divine Armor.
Hallowed Ground: You can no longer gain AP while Hallowed Ground is active.

There was also this earlier:
http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/7008973
Guardian Fighter: Supremacy of Steel: Guardian Fighters will no longer be able to gain Action Points while Supremacy of Steel is active.


Oh but never mind that when Paladin was released it had the same exact issues with dailies being able to be kept up 100% of the time and remained that way for a year. HAMSTER consistency and HAMSTER your fun.

armadeonx

katbozejziemi said:

http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/9005213-patch-notes-11/18/14
Divine Armor: The Cleric can no longer generate AP while affected by their own Divine Armor.
Hallowed Ground: You can no longer gain AP while Hallowed Ground is active.

There was also this earlier:
http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/7008973
Guardian Fighter: Supremacy of Steel: Guardian Fighters will no longer be able to gain Action Points while Supremacy of Steel is active.


Oh but never mind that when Paladin was released it had the same exact issues with dailies being able to be kept up 100% of the time and remained that way for a year. HAMSTER consistency and HAMSTER your fun.

I'm not sure what you're trying to state here, these links are from 2014... They have said they are now looking to get rid of AP gain blocks wherever possible but rebalance the powers themselves where they feel they are too OP.

onlymat

pitshade said:

"You can also make a case that ALL the stuff that restores AP directly and ignores blocks on AP recovery has broken their own principles. "



That just raises the questions of Which Principles and Which Devs, going back to what I said about living partially still in Mod 5. These dailies were designed in an environment where we weren't supposed to be spamming them. Now we have too many ways to increase AP and it seems unlikely the current devs are going to nerf all the artifacts, pets, boons and mounts.



For consistency, perhaps the devs should remove the AP gen blocks but then put a cooldown on dailies across the board - no more perma anything but also not making the AP boost toys worthless.



I am all for buffing DO - still not happy about being AC - but the simple truth is that DO paragon abilities simple lack any real use in a support role. Foresight used to be THE cleric ability at one point but the era of one shots has rendered it obsolete (maybe the new SC will give it new life?) Hammer of Fate was nerfed long ago and isn't what parties are wanting from DCs. Brand is my favorite at will, but again has no party synergy. Terrifying Insight is only a personal boost (maybe this could be changed but the the devs are unlikely to make it ignore the cap) Apart from Foresight again, none of what people wanted from clerics when DO was on top, are paragon abilities.

maybe it's possible to improve Foresight? I mean more deflect for the group or what I would like add also AC like anointed armor (http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Anointed_Armor)? Maybe if you slot it you give away additional 1 or 2 AC to the group to help them survive?

mebengalsfan

Playing a Tac GF and Renegade CW the AP build is almost 100% up time for these two classes. The DC AC with AA has almost a 100% up time. I am fine with a fix that would allow DC DO to have 100% up time on HG or even DC AC with 100% up time on HG or any daily for that matter. We should not be forced into specific builds and specific abilities due to some things not working as intended or not working equally to others that makes some things completely useless.

I'm 100% for this change especially if it improves DO builds.

devlin

mebengalsfan#9264 said:

Playing a Tac GF and Renegade CW the AP build is almost 100% up time for these two classes. The DC AC with AA has almost a 100% up time. I am fine with a fix that would allow DC DO to have 100% up time on HG or even DC AC with 100% up time on HG or any daily for that matter. We should not be forced into specific builds and specific abilities due to some things not working as intended or not working equally to others that makes some things completely useless.

I'm 100% for this change especially if it improves DO builds.

The changes will definitely improve DO builds; I just think it will improve AC's more.

Disregarding AA for a moment, all the changes are a buff to clerics. More damage + no more AP penalty + fixed bugs = amazing.

So in that sense, DO's will be better than they were before.

A DO will now be able to "spam" dailies like there AC brethren. HG followed by either DA (where needed) or hammers or flame strike will be pretty sweet. In particular, HG + DA + foresight could be a hefty defensive buff for your mates.

However, AC will still reign supreme I reckon. Even though the "new" AA is pretty useless in terms of mitigation, AA + HG will quickly become the meta, leaving DO's a 2nd tier.

I'm curious what will happen to group makeups going forward. Most of my groups relish in double clerics. AA + HG + eBTS + eFF between the 2. Since losing that second cleric will only mean losing eFF now, multiple DC's will likely become super undesirable (not that it's hard finding groups as a DC anyway, but just something I was thinking about).

putzboy78

AA uptime should be negligible in content like SVA considering the benefits should be negated on damage received and damaged received is near constant in the form of DOTS and AOEs.

mebengalsfan

devlin#3775 said:

mebengalsfan#9264 said:

Playing a Tac GF and Renegade CW the AP build is almost 100% up time for these two classes. The DC AC with AA has almost a 100% up time. I am fine with a fix that would allow DC DO to have 100% up time on HG or even DC AC with 100% up time on HG or any daily for that matter. We should not be forced into specific builds and specific abilities due to some things not working as intended or not working equally to others that makes some things completely useless.

I'm 100% for this change especially if it improves DO builds.

The changes will definitely improve DO builds; I just think it will improve AC's more.

Disregarding AA for a moment, all the changes are a buff to clerics. More damage + no more AP penalty + fixed bugs = amazing.

So in that sense, DO's will be better than they were before.

A DO will now be able to "spam" dailies like there AC brethren. HG followed by either DA (where needed) or hammers or flame strike will be pretty sweet. In particular, HG + DA + foresight could be a hefty defensive buff for your mates.

However, AC will still reign supreme I reckon. Even though the "new" AA is pretty useless in terms of mitigation, AA + HG will quickly become the meta, leaving DO's a 2nd tier.

I'm curious what will happen to group makeups going forward. Most of my groups relish in double clerics. AA + HG + eBTS + eFF between the 2. Since losing that second cleric will only mean losing eFF now, multiple DC's will likely become super undesirable (not that it's hard finding groups as a DC anyway, but just something I was thinking about).

DO will see even greater damage when running with a AC from there AC buff as I pointed out in another thread.

I just hope the Devs look into modifying the heroic feats and maybe doing something with the Paragon Feat paths as well.

IMO, the paragon feat paths should be...

Righteous - Controller / Damager
Faithful - Healer
Virtuous - Buffer

This way a DC can actually focus a bit on damage in its feats. The controller class feats should include feats to increase abilities AoE for damage, increase damage for DoTs, increase based damage for encounters and at wills, etc... Right now the Righteous path is pretty close to that along with it being a group buffer but it would be better if the feats would be self focused and than make Virtuous focus on Buffs for the group and Faithful being the healing path for DCs.

I hate the setup we have now for DC for the paragon paths and I simply hate that I to do anything good in damage I need to take Righteous and than from there modify base on my Paragon level pick of DO or AC. Both Paragon roles are basically all pigeonholed into the Righteous path and that is not the way the Devs want the game. I have not seen any recent DC builds recommending Faithful or Virtuous paths and that is because those paths have no value to any DC at end game from my experience.

pitshade

"Maybe if you slot it you give away additional 1 or 2 AC to the group to help them survive?"

1 pt of armor class is about .5% DR.

plavia

I agree with putzboy78 , HG should be stronger if they reduce AA by half

DO need abit more to be competitive with BoB.
i wholdn't excpect dramatic changes. but again PoD is useless for many years.
so maybes they will touch it this time

the cool time removal of Templers Domain is nice as well.
and loosing divinity will effect more AC than DO, in my opinon.

DO might be poplar in PVP if they increase damage by 30%

and with piercing damage. heal is more importanat then ever. faithfull DO might be more effective in PVP even today

we need to wait and see

putzboy78

plavia said:

i wholdn't excpect dramatic changes. but again PoD is useless for many years.

POD wasn't useless when it was one shotting dragon, lol