My personal AA rage thread!

macaran5123

To be clear I'm not calling for a nerf, I do think there should be one -- a huge one -- but this thread is for AC DCs to HAMSTER in!

My story!
I just did a msva to help some people get the weekly. It was a quick pick-up group, mostly with guildies, but also with other people to fill it out. Two DCs, me as AC, and the other as DO. One tank. As soon as I inspected the other DC and saw they were DO, I PMed the leader to make sure they could tell everyone there was only one AA dc. Yadda Yadda, she told everyone to do the mechanics and be good. I think anyone who plays an AC DC can guess exactly what happened next!
I ended up running around like mad keeping AA on everyone well people dropped ice fields all over the place, even on the boss. The tank, slightly undergeared, died a couple times because of the ice on the boss. I had to be on high alert the entire time playing perfectly well the rest of the people just did their dps thing and "let the DC take care of it." I was barely able to use empowered BTS since I had to save my divine power for snap heals.
I feel like AA is the worst thing that ever happened to my class. I'm angry, sad, and pissy after I run something where my group mindlessly wacks things and act like "the DC can play with skill so I don't have to." The power creep in the game is bad enough, AA makes that even worse buffing 100k+ power with rank 12 bondings, but the immunity and the playerbases general attitude of "if we failed it's because the DC wasn't AAing enough!" is really starting to make the class unfun to play.

I'd like to hear other AC DCs comment about how annoying it is when the group takes no responsibility for their poor playing and makes the DC carry the group.

Let's NOT talk about how we can fix AA. There are plenty of threads in the player feedback forum discussing how AA could be made less game-breaking. Leave the nerf requests and even insightful thoughts on changing it there. Let's just tell our stories. If we can get enough people to hear what it's like being pushed into playing so they don't have to, maybe we can change a few minds!

dread4moor

@macaran5123 , you touched on two painful topics for me.
My favorite toon is a 3yr old FaiDO buffer/generator 3.5k. She was extremely popular... still is in high demand in all pre Mod10.5 content... except this mSVA AA shambolic state.
Now it is the same as with pre-nerf "Bubble OP" in CN. People get complacent, play sloppy, stand in red, and if they die it's "WTF, this DC sucks. Any DC without AA sucks" .
It's happened many times before. "Fad" crutch powers allow lazy players be bad at their class. I just ignore them.
Also, @macaran5123 , I appreciate your mentioning the effect of mSVA Hailstorm (red circle) on the Tank.
My other primary toon is a Tank GF 4k, "pain drain" running Knight's Valor 24/7. 98%DR, 70% deflect (w bonding) so on SVA my DCs can ignore me, hence they love me. Need no heals or AShield. They can focus on the squishy DeePSers.
The ONLY time I die is, as you say, when some arsehat drops Hailstorm on the boss!
Personally I can take the hit just fine. But... KV. All the melee players are close in, all get hit and I get 50% of each and every hit resulting in a oneshot that Orcus only dreams of.
Then, as you say, the DC has to shift focus, I have to reduce ITF and Commander's Strike in favor of defensive skills. Wet squib.
That last part was just a vent/catharsis. Thanks!

putzboy78

MSVA has a lot of unique mechanics that give it the potential to be fun but no one is using. Way to many button mashers, etc. Often doesn't help that most tanks (similar issue in most lower ilvl stuff but people ignore it) turn boss focus away from the dps and ensure combat advantage. There are many things I'd like to change to help highlight player skill that are causing people to ignore game mechanics. Damage immunity is one of them, i'd also put the mark granting combat advantage as another. It allows tanks to ignore the mechanic of keeping agro to position boss and mobs to give dps combat advantage and to ensure aoe damage is focused away from the party. Alas I think some of these things are on purpose to give lower skilled players abilities to complete content and puts more emphasis on gear than positioning.

ferdi

I have played as a Divine oracle for the past few months because I prefer to play solo and like to actually finish in a timely manner with dailies. I just switched to Annointed champion to play dungeons because people would quit or not want to play without the AA spam. I just want to get better gear and then I am back to DO. Its funny how people want to say you cant play when your a DO but as a AC I am never criticized and no one quits. There are groups I have had luck with mostly because of a tank that plays his role but most people just want to button smash and make the cleric run around with AA spamming.

umarachnea

My friends have told me many times that I've spoiled them, since they got used to playing with my AA spam. But I had to go through the education that AA is not simple immunity but also a major power buff, and by standing in red, they are not using it to its full potential.

This is nothing new though, any healer/buffer with mmo experience knows how the deeps only focus on one thing... I'm on PS4 so it will be a couple more days before sva, but even in FBI on that first boss, having to cleanse poison, because they refuse to move as soon as they see the red is a pain. AA doesn't prevent you from getting poisoned... but no... we still have to drop any heal available, just to hopefully trigger cleanse...

I agree though... the majority of the player base (read DD) expect us to be AA spamming clerics... I've also seen some switch to average power, 20K or less, in favor of high recovery just so they could spam it, at the cost of lower power sharing... because spamming so quickly is perceived as better...

I don't think we can change minds here, except that maybe we, all DC's regardless of build, should start demanding they move from any avoidable damage, or else, we don't AA not that it would make a big difference, but I know it makes me feel a little better...

macaran5123

umarachnea#5673 said:

...
I don't think we can change minds here, except that maybe we, all DC's regardless of build, should start demanding they move from any avoidable damage, or else, we don't AA not that it would make a big difference, but I know it makes me feel a little better...

I used to spend energy in the old trivial dungeons (CN and below) positioning myself so I could get the whole party AAed, and their HAMSTER ranged pets, however they moved around or stood off. Now I don't bother. I figure if you don't want to stand in AA, you clearly don't care about getting it, and well, if you get 1 shot that's on you.

raymond00713

I dont bother either. If they don't understand the need to stand by me, which is somewhere near the tank, i let them do whatever

devlin

raymond00713 said:

I dont bother either. If they don't understand the need to stand by me, which is somewhere near the tank, i let them do whatever

Heh I'm similar. If they are new/inexperienced, I'll talk their ear off if they want to hear it about the nuances of buffs/debuffs (at least whatever limited knowledge I have). But after that, or if im running with people that SHOULD know better (3.8k people), I just shrug my shoulders.

The best is when they then cry about the paingiver charts and/or think there class/build/whatever needs to be buffed. Maybe that GWF would have beat you anyways, but the difference wouldn't be near as dramatic if you didn't go stand in a corner during every fight.

putzboy78

always been that way. People thinking you need to target your AS for where they are, not where they should be. fm... those are also the dpsrs who think the clerics & tanks are supposed to pick up fallen party members when we all know that responsibility belongs to the dps.

macaran5123

putzboy78 said:

...
those are also the dpsrs who think the clerics & tanks are supposed to pick up fallen party members when we all know that responsibility belongs to the dps.

So true. I am so sick and tired of rezing people, interrupting my AP gain, then having them HAMSTER that I didn't have AA up. It's even worse when they make the tank rez, because "oh no" I can't stop my paingiver numbers to rez someone!, better have the person stopping be from being 1 shot rez than lower my personal dps a little!

sharkt0pus

We have created a monster. An even lazier monster than what we previously had, hahaha

I think the "all eyes on me" gameplay is what made it so satisfactory in the beginning. I spent months running pug groups on what was the typical Buff Cleric build on ps4 at the time and it asked for Hallowed Ground instead of AA. Man, talk about rage inducing. I had the hardest troubles running Kessells, let alone eLoL. It wasnt until I broke away from that build and started playing with AA that I realized how insanely overpowered the skill was, and not just how it power shared, but just in the ways of immunity and cooldown reductions.

I went from struggling to beat any dungeon to being the reason we beat every single dungeon with ease. It felt good to hear people say things like "holy HAMSTER, easiest run ever" or clamor on about their DPS or APG. I spent the better part of that month trying to talk pug groups into staying right next to me, even if a red circle appeared below them.

Its just funny because now most players assume you are going to have AA up at all times and dont bother moving at all. I have seen some DPS that actually dont know certain mechanics of bosses because they just think there are none, simply because AA is blocking all damage and they have no reason to move.

Before I took a small hiatus from NW, I started toying around with a DO Cleric build that I had wanted to make that worked great side by side an AA cleric. The problem I had at the start of making my AA build....is the same problem I had trying out my DO build. People have these expectations and its murdering trying to break through them.

namelesshero347

While the insane mod 10/10.5 grind was the first reason I skipped the grind, this was a close second. I don't want to respec to AC and most of the player base seems dependent on it now for both FBI and mSVA.

illhora

there is a big gap between AC and DO for PVE content, excatly the same for PVP.
However i dont see any DC's raging about DO build in PVP...

there is a "niche" for both in both contents, just find it if you want play with it and stop your rage.

And if DPS dies in red circle,let them die and do not rize them...simple !
(to me a DC should'nt almost never be the one razing - no sense for the group synergy)

EDIT:

The almost perma one shot in High ILVL content a has created that demands...
And By casting AA it doesn't mean that the DC is good...

bvira

If I'm the q leader then I'd tell everyone that if they waste my AA by dropping ice field on boss and stand on it I'd kick them immediately.

Also, imo AA does need to be nerfed and fixed. It now provides 100% dmg mitigation instead of 90% and gives CC immunity no matter how many times you've been hit. And as long as it can buff bonding pets, DO would have no place in PvE.

shmoodle

The aoe on the turtle in FBI is the same - people stand in it because they know AA will eat it. I tried to explain to someone yesterday that yes, it will eat the aoe but the tank might not have that protection because of it. His reply - why don't I know about this before, I do FBI all the time and nobody ever said anything. He pretty much called me a liar and continued to stand in the red.

I give a short spiel at the beginning of each SVA asking everyone to move the ice because if it takes the hit that should have saved the tank it is their fault. It usually works but I've seen other DCs stand there with a circle on them so it's obviously not a universal belief that people need to move away.

But yes, it does make people lazy - I agree there. I can't help but love it though!

illhora

i run Msva to help my guild membres and we run it sometime with only one DC (me)- it works fine
Team knows the mechanic of the run and AA helping to stay alive - AA doesnt need to be nerfed - the idiots standing intentionally in AOE should be !!


The PET should have the same rez mechanic as we have -
after 1 rez in a single combat, the PET should be disabled (2 rez if he has a SF, even more with SF ICD) and rez next fight. and in boss fight or demo/sva run after 1-2 rez you can say bye bye to your PET... he will look the fight from the firecamp....

ppl will learn to stay alive that way and avoid aoe...

raymond00713

Lol at dps thinking I'm worried about their paingiver while they're buddy is dying. Keeping myself and the tank alive is what I do. I cant count the number of times I've had to tell someone that it isn't the tanks job to stay away from you when you get tethered to him. Forget your score. I main a tr but from my experience trs and gwfs are the worst offenders of not wanting to move to try to keep their score. Cws and sws seem to like to be ranged when I need them by me

crazybib

bvira said:

And as long as it can buff bonding pets, DO would have no place in PvE.

Not agree at all with that. Okay, running FBI with only one DO DC can be hard but DO is a very good additional buffer/debuffer for the team.
As a AC DC, I like to run FBI with a DO DC, the synergy between the 2 spec is great and if well played, everything melt.
PS: another DO is better than 2 AC at least for me as I am sure that he will not use AA even when I have much more base power than him contrary to some AC DC out there that freak out when I ask them to use HG instead of AA.

bvira

crazybib said:

Not agree at all with that. Okay, running FBI with only one DO DC can be hard but DO is a very good additional buffer/debuffer for the team.
As a AC DC, I like to run FBI with a DO DC, the synergy between the 2 spec is great and if well played, everything melt.
PS: another DO is better than 2 AC at least for me as I am sure that he will not use AA even when I have much more base power than him contrary to some AC DC out there that freak out when I ask them to use HG instead of AA.

The only thing DO brings onto the table is Prophecy of Doom, which is bugged. Even if it wasn't bugged, its use is limited mostly on boss fights only. If an AC DC can reliably use perma AA then having a second DO DC is more desirable but I'd probably still go for 2 AC coz much higher survivability in a team with a bad tank/without a tank/with idiots who think they can face tank everything.

nickjdowe

This nonsense from the same people who criticize if a DC is running a Faith Build over a Righteous but want people to respect their right to choose Devine Oracle over Annointed Champion. AA is probably going to get looked at real soon, why start yet another rage thread?

namelesshero347

I doubt AA will be changed before mod 11. If they do, it will be the final nail in the coffin for FBI and mSVA. No one will run them tens or hundreds of time with the chest key change and high failure rate. Good for me. More free time till mod 11.

rapo973

macaran5123 said:

To be clear I'm not calling for a nerf, I do think there should be one -- a huge one -- but this thread is for AC DCs to HAMSTER in!
My story!

My story is not so different.
I cannot avoid talking about a possible solution - sorry for this.Instead of nerfing AA, I would do two things (limited to eSVA):
1) fix the 100% damage immunity bug - no one can ignore to cover the runes
2) Increase the hailburst's DoT rate - it's too low imo. On a side note, I suspect that cleanse is bugged.

Generally speaking I would add more fast DoT to PVE instead of designing the bosses around a few big hits. In that case AA would be a temporary mitigation power and the power buff would be limited over the time. Moreover healers would have a role again when the AA immunitity is deleted in few seconds by a fast dot.
As I wrote in another post and as far as I know, no one slot AA in PvP because dot powers are widely used.

zhaker

I understand the story, I just don't agree with the Title at all, with a rant like that it screams NERF AA right there.

The problem isn't to do with the AA in principle. Its the principle of following mechanics, its been the reason why the MSVA runs have been poor, due to people not following mechanics.

The people are blaming the quality of the players, I think what they're blaming is the lack of 4k's who out gear the content and thus setting the trend are not doing it since they gotten the gear. These people that outgear content can ignore alot of the mechanics and survive it (eg. I been in a 4k run where they can ignore ALOT of mechanics).

Without those players leading it, you got the 3.5k+ trying to mimic the actions of those 4k+ players and failing because they really cant ignore the mechanics, they then lean to a clutch of AC DC to carry them through so it puts ALOT of onus and pressure on that class to perform.

Nerfing them will just create another class a desired class to grab. You dont see million of support classes out there, but you do see millions of DPS classes out there.

I think the solution to your problem is that you have to decide whether:
A> Worth to save them and do what you did.
B> Let it go and see the disaster, they either:
i> wise up and follow mechanic, or
ii>give up and moan on the forums.

mebengalsfan

I stopped using AA. The only way the gaming community will improve as players is by not enabling them with stupidity. So I removed AA from my tray. If they want AA, it will cost you a nice shiny Artifact of my picking.

instynctive

My DC is a DO Vituous. She's served me well for a couple of years, and I'm not going to respec her to be "flavor of the mod".

Of course, I haven't even started STK with her. I might go back to that if I want the boons at some point, but until then, screw it. I'm dragging one character through it, and that's more than plenty for me.

schietindebux

Good luck with being second choice for the upcoming challenge.

putzboy78

DO Righteous can out dps many of the "dps classes" out there, there will always be room for competent players

schietindebux

putzboy78 said:

DO Righteous can out dps many of the "dps classes" out there, there will always be room for competent players

Sure DO-DC can out dps some classes, sadly I never met one, who did better than a pure striker because this class can´t transfer enough focus damage imo, trash ok, but focus-dps...hm.
Conqueror GF beats all classes with a maxed dps-setup atm, good ones are hard to find though.
Good dps Clerics are close to "never seen"

mamalion1234

I AM oracle.I have a question about castle never.
What are the benefits for a dc to stand behind a tank vs orcus ( AND i asked to do this as a do which is a suicide).
AS i know you can get annointed army even if your dc stand with others behind the boss is not so far the front and the behind orcus.

LAG happens anything can happen i have seen many anointed champions to lay down on the floor face tank orcus and to be honest I SPAM do not ress.

BACK to my question are any reason to stand behind the tank?

bvira

mamalion1234 said:

I AM oracle.I have a question about castle never.
What are the benefits for a dc to stand behind a tank vs orcus ( AND i asked to do this as a do which is a suicide).
AS i know you can get annointed army even if your dc stand with others behind the boss is not so far the front and the behind orcus.

LAG happens anything can happen i have seen many anointed champions to lay down on the floor face tank orcus and to be honest I SPAM do not ress.

BACK to my question are any reason to stand behind the tank?

Maybe he just assumed you were AC coz there is no reason to do that.

dread4moor

@mamalion1234
"BACK to my question are any reason to stand behind the tank?"
I cannot think of a single good reason for a DC, (AC or DO) to be in the "i formation" with the tank in Orcus.
From behind AA can reach the tank if you slide in to his postero-lateral flank (~ 45 degrees) , hit AA then slide back to the stairs.
Other personal AoEs?
Sunburst is not very useful here, but if you must, the same flanking maneuver would work.
Hallowed Ground, fired from the base of the stairs, covers the tank.
All other useful Powers are ranged. Why not use them from the relative safety of the stairs behind Orcus? DPS Powers are then boosted by CA.
Why on earth would anyone willingly give up CA to stand in the line of attack? To get a better view?