Tanks need to tank, heals need to heal and dps to dps

killerfate1

Call me a whiner, a not enough time into the game(r), or what ever but I feel that there should be some changes made to the way epic dungeons work.
We all know that epic dungeons have ilvl requirements yet if the team were to all be that ilvl I don't think the dungeon could be completed, I also dont think if you are right at the required ilvl that it should be a walk in the park either. To me the balance is not there. The amount of damage that is output from monsters is crazy, one shots for most classes unless you are so over geared for the dungeon.
What I have noticed is you read some of the skills and they provide some temporary hit points well the amount provided is near dismal, 2k or maybe 5k from some of the DC skills, thats maybe a spider hit from regular TOS, ETOS thats nothing, those darn spiders hit who ever they want because from what I can tell unless your tank can dps because they have broken threat generation. I think tanks should be able to take a hit which they can but give them the threat so they can pull stuff off of people, give healers some more power with the heals some of them are just horrible in comparison to the burst damage of even the lower epic dungeons or skirmishes.
I understand that you need some 1 hit KO moves or big hits from bosses to keep DPS from just running it without a tank but to have just about every move the boss uses 1 shot you or almost kill you makes running dungeons not even fun, I dont mind moving to dodge a red spot but every single move is meant to kill me unless Im crazy over geared the dungeons are not fun.

thefiresidecat

most healers arent actually healers in this game. and some tanks aren't actually tanks. some are heals and some are buff debuff like the dcs are. I suspect the vast majority of dcs are buff debuff at this point in the time. this is not a typical mmo as far as composition for dungeons. personally, I like the way it is.

armadeonx

Yeah we know, we've been over it a million times and the devs still haven't replied on the subject.

destrowod

Personally i always wished the dungeons would be made that any classes group can go in and complete it. For instance 5 DPS going in would be able to do enough damage to kill the boss fast enough so it can't kill them. While 5 tanks would take a hell of a lot more time killing it but would survive non the less. But nop if 5 DPS enter it, they will be one shoted one after the other no matter what, they will not be fast enough to kill Orcus for exemple, unless there all maximized 4,3K with legendary mount and still... not sure they could do it.

The problem with current composition is that your expect to go with a tank who will sponge stuff while the cleric is most likely expect to debuff the boss and buff the tank (and the dps to some extent) and then DPS hit the thing til death hoping they don't get it.

I did a CN the other day with a group that had me and another guy as DPS, 1 GF, 1 Pal, and one Cleric. Despite having 2 tanks sometimes Orcus would turn around and one shot me for no reason, usually when he was done to 75% life, then would one shot the other DPS. Why tank(s) lost aggro? i dunno, but if it happen, we are done. I didn't had any scoll of mass life on me so we could not beat the boss. Thats sucked. I wish when he would hit me i could at least heal myself with a stone and try to back off the fight for a second, while the tank get back the aggro... Its just like no chance at all. 1 shot dead, get revived, and then 1 shot dead again after that. Cant get revived. Unless you buy a tons of items that cost a lot of zen wich kill the purpose more or less of doing the dungeon as the goal is to earn AD...

mordekai

I've just re-specced my DC, cos she wan't gettīng much use. As solo DPS she couldnt cut it and so I decided to make her into a Guild/Alliance utility.
Heal as core and buff debuff secondary.
So having done the respec, and she's 2.5k I sent her into Demogorgon PUG to trial run.

She might as well not have been there.

Now a large part of that is definitely down to my not having a handle on the rotations and no doubt doing stuff wrong, but individuals were doubling and even trebling my overall healing output from what I assume was Lifesteal.

I certainly didn't seem to be helping with one shots and general carnage.

My least favourite character... who ironically walks into most queue groups within seconds of registering.
Lets try.... ETOS...
"Looking for Map"

cscriv79

destrowod said:

Personally i always wished the dungeons would be made that any classes group can go in and complete it. For instance 5 DPS going in would be able to do enough damage to kill the boss fast enough so it can't kill them. While 5 tanks would take a hell of a lot more time killing it but would survive non the less. But nop if 5 DPS enter it, they will be one shoted one after the other no matter what, they will not be fast enough to kill Orcus for exemple, unless there all maximized 4,3K with legendary mount and still... not sure they could do it.

The problem with current composition is that your expect to go with a tank who will sponge stuff while the cleric is most likely expect to debuff the boss and buff the tank (and the dps to some extent) and then DPS hit the thing til death hoping they don't get it.

I did a CN the other day with a group that had me and another guy as DPS, 1 GF, 1 Pal, and one Cleric. Despite having 2 tanks sometimes Orcus would turn around and one shot me for no reason, usually when he was done to 75% life, then would one shot the other DPS. Why tank(s) lost aggro? i dunno, but if it happen, we are done. I didn't had any scoll of mass life on me so we could not beat the boss. Thats sucked. I wish when he would hit me i could at least heal myself with a stone and try to back off the fight for a second, while the tank get back the aggro... Its just like no chance at all. 1 shot dead, get revived, and then 1 shot dead again after that. Cant get revived. Unless you buy a tons of items that cost a lot of zen wich kill the purpose more or less of doing the dungeon as the goal is to earn AD...

Have done CN with 5 dps on many occasions, if you are ranged the Orcus fight is easy as a melee companion will tank the boss.

The problem with the classes is that they are trying to balance them for PvE and PvP and in doing so they ruin powers/mechanics that help PvE to limit them in PvP etc. Also many things are brokem when they do class balances/changes such as threat generation and reduction etc.

armadeonx

Firstly, if 5 DPS could run a dungeon without Clerics or Tanks then Clerics and Tanks wouldn't be welcome in the group and they would disappear from the game and it would become a shoot-em-up, who's the best DPS race. That just isn't an mmo to my mind.

@mordekai#1901 healers aren't really in need so you'd be a lot better off re-doing your DC to an AC Righteous Buff. You still provide a degree of healing via Astral Seal and Divine Glow but speed up runs by reducing enemy defences and increasing team power by up to 25% of yours.

I run with most feats in Righteous but also use the following Virtuous feats:

Lasting Wishes - healing increased by 10%
Battle Fervor - Blessings of Battle (at-will) increases your shared power by 15%
Gift of Haste - 1% AP gain per second for 5 secs for anyone effected by a HoT skill (Divine Glow). This is very useful for tanks during boss fights as it means they can pop their dailies more often.

ddem0n888

Yeah I've always thought about respeccing my GWF to IV. A lot of the feats and powers sound so tanky but I know I'd get one-shotted by Orcus like I do on my Destroyer GWF.

And tanks should tank etc etc.

mordekai

armadeonx said:

Firstly, if 5 DPS could run a dungeon without Clerics or Tanks then Clerics and Tanks wouldn't be welcome in the group and they would disappear from the game and it would become a shoot-em-up, who's the best DPS race. That just isn't an mmo to my mind.

@mordekai#1901 healers aren't really in need so you'd be a lot better off re-doing your DC to an AC Righteous Buff. You still provide a degree of healing via Astral Seal and Divine Glow but speed up runs by reducing enemy defences and increasing team power by up to 25% of yours.

I run with most feats in Righteous but also use the following Virtuous feats:

Lasting Wishes - healing increased by 10%
Battle Fervor - Blessings of Battle (at-will) increases your shared power by 15%
Gift of Haste - 1% AP gain per second for 5 secs for anyone effected by a HoT skill (Divine Glow). This is very useful for tanks during boss fights as it means they can pop their dailies more often.

Yep, a guildmate said this and since I've still got a bunch of respec tokens thats what I did.
Now I feel like I'm contributing again.

iccyasd

Just want to add, the Threat system is broken in this game, not that a tank doesnt have enough threat generation, its because the threat generation for damage out weights whatever tanks feats/skills has.

I had always specs my GF as a protector (<20k power), he has all the feats & personal skill that generate threat, recently when mod10 drops i re-spected to techtician avoiding all feats/personal skills with threat generation, but this round i have like 40-46k power. To my surprise i could still hold threat as like before with feats & personal skills, this proof that high dmg out weights everything.

thefiresidecat

destrowod said:

Personally i always wished the dungeons would be made that any classes group can go in and complete it. For instance 5 DPS going in would be able to do enough damage to kill the boss fast enough so it can't kill them. While 5 tanks would take a hell of a lot more time killing it but would survive non the less. But nop if 5 DPS enter it, they will be one shoted one after the other no matter what, they will not be fast enough to kill Orcus for exemple, unless there all maximized 4,3K with legendary mount and still... not sure they could do it.

The problem with current composition is that your expect to go with a tank who will sponge stuff while the cleric is most likely expect to debuff the boss and buff the tank (and the dps to some extent) and then DPS hit the thing til death hoping they don't get it.

I did a CN the other day with a group that had me and another guy as DPS, 1 GF, 1 Pal, and one Cleric. Despite having 2 tanks sometimes Orcus would turn around and one shot me for no reason, usually when he was done to 75% life, then would one shot the other DPS. Why tank(s) lost aggro? i dunno, but if it happen, we are done. I didn't had any scoll of mass life on me so we could not beat the boss. Thats sucked. I wish when he would hit me i could at least heal myself with a stone and try to back off the fight for a second, while the tank get back the aggro... Its just like no chance at all. 1 shot dead, get revived, and then 1 shot dead again after that. Cant get revived. Unless you buy a tons of items that cost a lot of zen wich kill the purpose more or less of doing the dungeon as the goal is to earn AD...

my guild on ps4 does regular tank only cn runs. lol. they seem to do ok.

sasageru

I play a DC, originally built in mod 6 where I could actually get a way with being a full healer/damage mitigator without buffing and be awesome. Then suddenly AC DC's were the in crowd :P and healing took a back step cause you can't heal a 1 hit killed person. I've pretty much been forced to respec to a buffer (im a hybrid, not full buffer though cause I like being able to heal 100k in 1 hit dammit >.> ). Before i finally bit the bullet and respec'd I was not able to get into any group runs because I can't do any DPS, heals were unnecessary in lower level content and useless in end game content, but power buffing and protection? Good for any place any time especially if you've got good recovery times.

Tanks I don't feel are as badly affected because they are still quite necessary in dungeons but mostly to play aggro magnet and focus point for the mobs and bosses, but I've seen tanks who are full DPS builds and do incredible damage, more so than DPS'ers are the same IL and experience, which is a little scary.

So it would definitely be nice to see DC's and Tanks going back to basics and doing what you expect their job to be, but at this stage I'd just accept the ability to have a versatile build and not be forced into the cooker cutter mould that I'm currently half squished into (AC DC).

I think, as im sure many do, we need a rework of alot of classes and i honestly think doing it in dribs and drabs is making the matter worse. They need to look at party makeups as a whole, and how feats balance with the other classes, not just how each class feats work individually because that will again leave room for further issues to develop.

sundance777

Tanks need to Tank. I like that and I laugh to myself as I actually find myself saying, I don't want any more threat while running my tank, I have enough stuff attacking me already...hehe.

But if the threat worked right I would not be taking damage through KV from the players that are getting hit instead of me and it would be much easier to control and manage the mobs. Like the phase spiders in etos, where there are like 5 of them, that room is absolute choas on most runs, I like it!

jslegge1901

I find myself being an all around pally... Dps, tank, and healer. Must have an incredible amount of recovery to keep a constant prism up. Don't worry that'll get nerfed next.

mordekai

The threat issue is particularly annoying with pugs, and is the reason my GF sits on the bench these days.
I have a 2.7 TR who regularly drags aggro from tanks, and my GF who is specced for Threat to the point where I chose Earthen weapon set in the hope of standing still quite a bit seems to spend half his time chasing monsters who are chasing TRs and HRs.
I did a Thrones skirmish the other day with my TR and ended up dismissing my companion.

My DC, (who is very much a tertiary character) as I've had explained by several people, doesn't need to Heal as much as Buff these days.
The way I see it, the majority of downs in end game queue material come from one-shot, and I can't heal "death" no matter how many fish I could catch.
That's why I'm more about Buffs than Heals, but still get into queues far easier than any other of my characters.

ddem0n888

I'm actually enjoying the fact that the new content requires tanks and dcs. There's certainly a higher proportion of DPS toons so some spots for support are welcome.

At this moment I much prefer running on my 3.7k DC over my 4.2k GWF due to the support shortage.