Fix/Reevaluate Annointed Army Immortality (DC-AC paragon daily)

etelgrin

Welcome to bubble 2.0

Perfectly spammable, because unlike hallowed ground you still gain AP while the efect is ongoing. Spite the description says that it should only protect against fixed amount of hits in fact it grants immortality. In the content like svardborg we could all see how much impact it has on gaming specifically people were looking for perma annointed DCs to keep them up alive and ignore combat mechanics to the ground where tank stays on one side everybody else on the another and melt Storvald to the ground with DCs ocassionally poping AA to prevent ultimate skills from clearing players. New content with whatever challange is going to bring and no matter how difficult the original design of new things is going to be, perma annointed army DC which is possible due to stacking recovery and power for buffing matters on companion which transfers it via bonding runestones to players making it possible reaching over 20k recovery easily and so granting incredible reacharge speed increase and AP gain to the DC. Also fix interactions between weapons of light, blessing of battle (feated), paladin's aura gifts and bonding runestones transfering power after annointed army buff on companion giving this way players incredible amount of power score (200k+ possible without stealth or so).

marnival

+1

uptondarkdiamond

I'm sure AA is already being looked at, but

xsayajinx1 said:

As long as we don't have a TRULY fixed reward system I don't care how broken or easy PvE is... not worth the time of any player.

I have to agree with @xsayajinx1 why do I want a longer dungeon experience for a lackluster (although improving) rewards system. I can and have done all content successfully without a AA DC. The only difference between having one and not having one was the amount of time it took to complete said dungeon without AA DC.

So IMHO, what the point of "fixing" AA......

jazzfong

Before you rant on AA spamming, roll a DC that spec into what you had said, count how much AD spent and how easy for it to be done first before you comment. You will take back all your words because it is not as easy as you write. You cant have AA up 24/7 without any downtime unless you are full BIS and even you are BIS, AA doesnt really give immortality. In SVA, it only last for a few seconds. With the most optimal budjet, you need at least 50 mil AD to do so, and that doesnt include boons and time invested to get the gear yet.

I dont care abt nerf on DC or what and it wont come so early i am sure, because the DC bug list is in forum for years and no one read and fix it. Bugs carried from 2014 to 2017, wp devs.

marnival

jazzfong said:

Before you rant on AA spamming, roll a DC that spec into what you had said, count how much AD spent and how easy for it to be done first before you comment. You will take back all your words because it is not as easy as you write. You cant have AA up 24/7 without any downtime unless you are full BIS and even you are BIS, AA doesnt really give immortality. In SVA, it only last for a few seconds. With the most optimal budjet, you need at least 50 mil AD to do so, and that doesnt include boons and time invested to get the gear yet.

I dont care abt nerf on DC or what and it wont come so early i am sure, because the DC bug list is in forum for years and no one read and fix it. Bugs carried from 2014 to 2017, wp devs.

So if it takes bis to be able to break a feat/skill/power its ok because very few can do it and it takes alot of investment in time and AD, is that what you are argue for?

Paladin immortality was fixed exactly for the same reason AA is broken it makes most content trivial and ofc it saves time on runs as it is broken.

It is impossible for devs to make content with a challenge as long as you can more or less ignore damage due to ANYTHING that can be chained for more or less the hole fight.

If you want trivial content that you can run through with bis players while less geared struggle by all means your argument is valid, cant say I agree though....

bvira

jazzfong said:

Before you rant on AA spamming, roll a DC that spec into what you had said, count how much AD spent and how easy for it to be done first before you comment. You will take back all your words because it is not as easy as you write. You cant have AA up 24/7 without any downtime unless you are full BIS and even you are BIS, AA doesnt really give immortality. In SVA, it only last for a few seconds. With the most optimal budjet, you need at least 50 mil AD to do so, and that doesnt include boons and time invested to get the gear yet.

I dont care abt nerf on DC or what and it wont come so early i am sure, because the DC bug list is in forum for years and no one read and fix it. Bugs carried from 2014 to 2017, wp devs.

Hmm Elf I have to disagree. AA trivializes the game so much that nothing is even mildly challenging at this point. Even in PvP it's broken coz it gives constant CC immunity.

dupeks

I agree AA is one of the (numerous) broken things about DCs at the moment. But it is particularly impactful because it changes the way certain end-game content can be played... same way Bubble did before.

DCs in general need some attention. True AA needs to be fixed, but so do other powers / feats that are currently not working. I'm hoping that's what's going on behind the scenes right now, and a whole package of fixes will be released.

Also, do note that the devs have repeatedly said that they are focused on balancing for PVE right now, and PVP impact is a lower priority.

adinosii

etelgrin said:

In PvP I'm far more annoyed by the power buff DC do and the strength of their debuffs like empowered break the spirit than this Annointed Army immunity.

This is actually a textbook example of why it is so hard to balance PvE and PvP at the same time. Empowered BtS is one of the most important powers of DCs - it is strong, yes, but it is appropriate and not spammable. The AA immunity, however, is just grossly overpowered, and is actually hurting PvE by encouraging bad playing - just like the paladin permabubble did.

What I would like to see (and longer term, I think it is the only viable path) is to have various powers and feats work differently in PvE and PvP. That will allow the game to get something resembling a fair balance in both cases.

To me, "balance" has a has a very different meaning in PvE. It is not about DPS numbers, or any position on any charts no, it is about usefulness. If a specific class is not wanted because it seen as useless, then ... yes, it needs balancing "upwards". Likewise, if a class is abnormally popular (anybody remember the old days when a CN party "had" to have 4 CWs?) then some nerf would be in order.

rapo973

Probably this is the 5th discussion about AA.
just some points:

1) AA is bugged: when the mod 10.5 went live, the immortality bug was reported after few minutes. This is the most important fix to do. Till now nothing has been done.

2) AA is not like the OP bubble. The OP bubble was a permanent protection against every type of damage. AA doesn't last forever: it's the min(expiration time, 4 hits taken). That means that AA is zero against fast DoT (infact no one slots it in PvP). I already suggested to implement a minor tweak to Hailburst at mSVA, increasing the DoT rate because it's too slow when two AC DC are in. Generally speaking all the bosses are designed around a few big hits that can be easily mitigated by AA. DoT would make AA less efficient and it would give healers a role again, virtuous in particular.

3) Power sharing: the interaction is powerful if and only if whatever companion has high rank bonding runestones. I still see a lot of confusion about it: are the DC feats the problem? or the bonding runestones? I would say the bonding runestones. Let's say that they nerf the power sharing feats without reviewing the bonding runestones. Fine, there's another interaction that give the DC an interesting amount of power.

meirami

Anointed Army's immortality bug deserves to be fixed along with the small dozen of other long-standing Devoted Cleric bugs that don't get talked about because they don't benefit DCs in any way.

Like rapo973 already said, Anointed Army isn't supposed to be 100% damage mitigation and is supposed to only take four hits, but I feel that 90% is also too high once that bug is fixed. I think a sweet spot would be at 30% damage mitigation, so that tanks don't get too flabby.

Overall, it is a shame to see a whole class delegated to spamming one daily, but this isn't the first time and definitely won't be the last. We had this with Divine Protector and, a long time ago, with Singularity. In some way, I feel that maybe all dailies should have a set cooldown for all classes just like encounters have and, if you gained more action points than that, you could alternate between the two dailies. /unpopular opinion

mamalion1234

A comment form a dev on this ? IS bug? is a change ? what is ?

rickcase276

I do agree if/when they fix AA they also need to fix/adjust bondings, as they are part of the problem too.

jazzfong

Just ignore this thread, devs said no changes or class rebalancing until mod 12 is out.

weaver936

jazzfong said:

Before you rant on AA spamming, roll a DC that spec into what you had said, count how much AD spent and how easy for it to be done first before you comment. You will take back all your words because it is not as easy as you write. You cant have AA up 24/7 without any downtime unless you are full BIS and even you are BIS, AA doesnt really give immortality. In SVA, it only last for a few seconds. With the most optimal budjet, you need at least 50 mil AD to do so, and that doesnt include boons and time invested to get the gear yet.

I dont care abt nerf on DC or what and it wont come so early i am sure, because the DC bug list is in forum for years and no one read and fix it. Bugs carried from 2014 to 2017, wp devs.

It's not how easy that matters.. it's if it should be a thing in the first place... they nerfed Pally Tank bubble for the same reason they shoulda never allowed AA Immortality to exist in the first place. and I started this game as a DC.. I am AC/DC.... and I still think it leads to the community being unskilled... same as i think the OP class as a whole was the worst thing ever to happen to player skill in this game.. aside from super easy content.

treesclimber

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnaXyaaFSuw
Jump to 14.

urabask

jazzfong said:

Before you rant on AA spamming, roll a DC that spec into what you had said, count how much AD spent and how easy for it to be done first before you comment. You will take back all your words because it is not as easy as you write. You cant have AA up 24/7 without any downtime unless you are full BIS and even you are BIS, AA doesnt really give immortality. In SVA, it only last for a few seconds. With the most optimal budjet, you need at least 50 mil AD to do so, and that doesnt include boons and time invested to get the gear yet.

I dont care abt nerf on DC or what and it wont come so early i am sure, because the DC bug list is in forum for years and no one read and fix it. Bugs carried from 2014 to 2017, wp devs.

BiS mostly just lets you share power better. Stacking enough recovery and AP gain to keep AA up long enough to trivialize content doesn't cost anywhere near 50 million AD.

asterdahl

Just wanted to chime in and state that anointed army has been on our radar for a long time, we were talking about making changes as early as during development of Fangbreaker. There won't be an adjustment coming with Module 11, but it is something we'd like to address. I'm happy to see so many of you in favor of a change and the team absolutely appreciates all of your passionate feedback, both for and against any adjustments.

dupeks

asterdahl said:

Just wanted to chime in and state that anointed army has been on our radar for a long time, we were talking about making changes as early as during development of Fangbreaker. There won't be an adjustment coming with Module 11, but it is something we'd like to address. I'm happy to see so many of you in favor of a change and the team absolutely appreciates all of your passionate feedback, both for and against any adjustments.

Good to hear. As has been mentioned, I think DCs need some love in a variety of ways (definitely fixing AA, but also some of the other long-standing issues).

Out of curiosity, didn't this bug first emerge when Mod10 came out (around or a little after the time you guys were developing Fangbreaker)?

I don't think it was bugged before SKT, at least not in this way.

mamalion1234

asterdahl said:

Just wanted to chime in and state that anointed army has been on our radar for a long time, we were talking about making changes as early as during development of Fangbreaker. There won't be an adjustment coming with Module 11, but it is something we'd like to address. I'm happy to see so many of you in favor of a change and the team absolutely appreciates all of your passionate feedback, both for and against any adjustments.

ANnointed army wasnt 100% mitigation before the fangbreaker island it became after you released mod 10.

mamalion1234

dupeks said:

asterdahl said:

Just wanted to chime in and state that anointed army has been on our radar for a long time, we were talking about making changes as early as during development of Fangbreaker. There won't be an adjustment coming with Module 11, but it is something we'd like to address. I'm happy to see so many of you in favor of a change and the team absolutely appreciates all of your passionate feedback, both for and against any adjustments.

Good to hear. As has been mentioned, I think DCs need some love in a variety of ways (definitely fixing AA, but also some of the other long-standing issues).

Out of curiosity, didn't this bug first emerge when Mod10 came out (around or a little after the time you guys were developing Fangbreaker)?

I don't think it was bugged before SKT, at least not in this way.

and DC maybe has some problems butperforming well and without the after mod 10 aa bug:(0.
BY that I mean dc doesnt really need a bug is already the best leader class in the game in the right hands.

hmdq

no more rings saturn gameplay! +1

urabask

asterdahl said:

Just wanted to chime in and state that anointed army has been on our radar for a long time, we were talking about making changes as early as during development of Fangbreaker. There won't be an adjustment coming with Module 11, but it is something we'd like to address. I'm happy to see so many of you in favor of a change and the team absolutely appreciates all of your passionate feedback, both for and against any adjustments.

While I'd like to see a fix, it's another power that people are building around. Please don't nerf it in the same way that you nerfed ITF where the way you've build your character becomes irrrelevant to how it performs.

sorce

dupeks said:

asterdahl said:

Just wanted to chime in and state that anointed army has been on our radar for a long time, we were talking about making changes as early as during development of Fangbreaker. There won't be an adjustment coming with Module 11, but it is something we'd like to address. I'm happy to see so many of you in favor of a change and the team absolutely appreciates all of your passionate feedback, both for and against any adjustments.

Good to hear. As has been mentioned, I think DCs need some love in a variety of ways (definitely fixing AA, but also some of the other long-standing issues).

Out of curiosity, didn't this bug first emerge when Mod10 came out (around or a little after the time you guys were developing Fangbreaker)?

I don't think it was bugged before SKT, at least not in this way.

Correct - before Mod 10 the AA bubbles were removed when you took damage, removing immunity and power (as it's meant to). Since Mod 10 launched, something was changed where all bubbles remained for the full duration, hence creating the issue.

rapo973

asterdahl said:

Just wanted to chime in and state that anointed army has been on our radar for a long time, we were talking about making changes as early as during development of Fangbreaker. There won't be an adjustment coming with Module 11, but it is something we'd like to address. I'm happy to see so many of you in favor of a change and the team absolutely appreciates all of your passionate feedback, both for and against any adjustments.

@asterdahl
Imo focusing on AA only is a mistake. I think that the revision of AA should be performed in a overall review of the DC powers and feats.
I agree to tone down AA, but only if other feats and powers are updated. As a non exhaustive example, please consider to update and improve geas, warding flare and unbreakable devotion in particular when AA is reviewed.
In this way, the DC can be a damage mitigator as a virtuous by stacking powers and feats, opening new options for different types of builds and setup.

Experienced DCs love such a kind of flexibility and modularity and that's why this class has a a steep learning curve and progression. My recommendation is to be cautios when you change something.

Regardless the above, why don't you consider a stepwise approach by fixing the AA immortality bug as a first step? I believe that many feedbacks would change eventually if this is done.
As already suggested, consider to address the long-standing list of bugs as well:
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1211087/dc-bugs-list/p1

treesclimber

Yes DC need a overall look but fixing AA is a good start.....i mean guardian of faith/hammer of fate? I dont remember seeing any DC since mod 6 using guardian of faith or hammer of fate out of pvp.

ghoulz66

AA gives the best of both worlds. The line needs to be drawn. We can't have such a powerful dps buff, and survivability buff at the same time.