Guardian fighter's skill [Into the fray]. Speed buff. Suggestions.

dolrey

Hello Here I would like to write my opinion about skill of guardian fighter [Into the fray]. I have nothing to say about it's damage buff (because it's really balanced now). But I would like to write some words about speed buff.

1)This skill provides very high movement speed for guardian fighter and for his teammates while it's active. Also [Into the fray] has low cool down what lets to guardian fighters to keep it active almost always. It makes guardian fighter too mobile.
2)Because of this some range classes still have troubles with countering guardian fighter's damage. Not because it is very high (it is already really that what it exactly should be). But because range classes just can't keep distance from guardian fighter while he is too fast.
3)Also I would like to add that high movement speed was advantage of great weapon fighters (their shift mechanics). That was their feature. But now this mechanics is mostly used by guardian fighters.

So, due to these problems I would like to ask about decreasing speed buff of [Into the fray] because this skill is already very strong as source of damage boost.

1) I hope this change will let to range classes better play against guardian fighters because it will not be so easy for them to reach their target anymore. Here I would like to add that it will be second part of nerf of guardian fighter's breaking distance skills (as we know that previously cooldown of [Linging strike] was increased and [Threatening rush] now can't be used under root effects).
2) I think that this change will make breaking distance skills more actual in some situations. Also increasing of their influence will help to devs to balance guardian fighter's ability to reach his target (calibrating range and cool down of breaking distance skills).
2) Also this change can make guardian fighter's mechanics more different from mechanics of great weapon fighters.


Also there is need to say that [Into the fray] helps for guardian fighter to counter very strongly slowing down daily power of trickster rogue [Courage breaker] (used with [Smoke bomb]). But for do that guardian fighter still will have [Line breaker assault]

So, thank you for your attention And sorry for my english
I'll be glad to read in comments about what you think about this




_______________
Added December 27:

Thank you all for your comments (they gave me some things to think about) I understand that my opinion is only my and that there are a lot of experienced players who have their own opinions about this point.

So, due to this I would like to partly change my suggestions in the following way.

1) I still think that speed buf of [Into the fray] lets to dd guardian fighters to reach their target too fast. And I still think that speed buff should be deleted concretely from [Into the fray].
2) BUT after your comments I think that this speed buff should be moved from [Into the fray] to tactician's feat [Inspiring leader]. I mean tacticians who learned this feat still will be able to increase speed to themselves and to their allies for the duration of [Into the fray].

Further I would like to discuss why I changed my suggestions in this way and how it will affect some game aspects.

Speed buff gives some TACTICAL advantage to guardian fighter and to his team. Because they become able to faster take positions and faster make needed movements. And as I remember it is role of tacticians to give this advantage. I think that this change will make this role much strongly marked.

So, there will be no changes in speed buff for tacticians who learned feat [Inspiring leader]. But other specs of guardian fighter will not be able to use this speed buff.

Also I think that change of speed buff with changes of [Knights valour] that I suggested in this thread [http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1225994/guardian-fighters-skill-knights-valour-some-suggestions-and-ideas] (sorry for cross linking) will make tacticians, conquerors and protectors more different.

So thank you again for your comments Thanks to them I got this idea And now I would like to ask you to write your opinions about these changed suggestions Let's together make our favorite class more interesting to play

trivialrage

Please stop asking for nerfs because you haven't spent hundreds of hours grinding to get your toon to bis. How about asking to stop the hr perma root or the tr smoke bomb? itf speed boost isn't almisghty.it a convenience that speeds up dungeons. I have never won a pvp fight because of itf speed.

jaime4312

dolrey said:

Hello Here I would like to write my opinion about skill of guardian fighter [Into the fray]. I have nothing to say about it's damage buff (because it's really balanced now). But I would like to write some words about speed buff.

1)This skill provides very high movement speed for guardian fighter and for his teammates while it's active. Also [Into the fray] has low cool down what lets to guardian fighters to keep it active almost always. It makes guardian fighter too mobile.
2)Because of this some range classes still have troubles with countering guardian fighter's damage. Not because it is very high (it is already really that what it exactly should be). But because range classes just can't keep distance from guardian fighter while he is too fast.
3)Also I would like to add that high movement speed was advantage of great weapon fighters (their shift mechanics). That was their feature. But now this mechanics is mostly used by guardian fighters.

So, due to these problems I would like to ask about decreasing speed buff of [Into the fray] because this skill is already very strong as source of damage boost.

1) I hope this change will let to range classes better play against guardian fighters because it will not be so easy for them to reach their target anymore. Here I would like to add that it will be second part of nerf of guardian fighter's breaking distance skills (as we know that previously cooldown of [Linging strike] was increased and [Threatening rush] now can't be used under root effects).
2) I think that this change will make breaking distance skills more actual in some situations. Also increasing of their influence will help to devs to balance guardian fighter's ability to reach his target (calibrating range and cool down of breaking distance skills).
2) Also this change can make guardian fighter's mechanics more different from mechanics of great weapon fighters.


Also there is need to say that [Into the fray] helps for guardian fighter to counter very strongly slowing down daily power of trickster rogue [Courage breaker] (used with [Smoke bomb]). But for do that guardian fighter still will have [Line breaker assault]

So, thank you for your attention And sorry for my english
I'll be glad to read in comments about what you think about this

No more nerf requests please, I think I saw you somewhere else asking for them because pve enemies couldn't kill your tank or something like that. Also, as you asked for opinions and without meaning to offend you, I'd like to point out that it is not necessary to write the skill/power names between [ ], for example, "[Crescendo]", I don't know how is like for other people but at least in my case it makes reading the whole post quite a challenge as it is incredibly tedious, like, maybe one or 2 powers mentioned that way wouldn't be that bad but, every single one of them? Jesus! Up to you how to write though, just being honest with you.

Itf was already nerfed to where it should be, leave it alone.

arabatur

This sounds primarily like a PvP issue, which is something Cryptic doesn't do particularly well. And as someone who ignores PvP, please stop trying to suggest ruining what little PvE fun I have left.

trivialrage

Are you a gf? Why would you want to help nerf it? If your not a gf, please stop trying to nerf our favorite class. I assuming you are ranged class that would like the ability to kill the gf before it gets to you?

oliboyph

I think there's much more to improve in terms of balance in PVP than just the speed buff of GF's. In PVE at 4k+ runs, the speed buff of ITF is the only thing keeping the buffer build just as relevant as a DPS build. In addition, removing speed buff in ITF might bring the class down to the level of OP, the other melee class with no closing down mechanic.

asterotg

Lets see. There is a mob group in a lvl 70 epic dungeon. There are a few options what will happen:

1. You are a BIS/well geared DD and you can solo that HAMSTER, ENGAGE!!!
2. You are/ have in your party an decked out AA DC. You dont get dmg at all, ENGAGE!!!
3. You are a perma TR. Mobs cant hit what they cant see, ENGAGE.
4. You are non of the above, but you really really want to be paingiver, you engage and you die. Those idiots in your party ignore you, stealing your precious dmg and ruining your day. You blame the slow tank for not tanking and the DC for not healing, ignoring the facts, that they where not present bc this stupid classes have no sprint and that you left the group with some trash adds, to get more dmg in an 'untapped' mobgroup.
5. You are the tank. Whoever can pull and survive, good for them. The rest has to wait until you engage, regardless ITF.

In all of the above scenarios only the first 3 'boost' GFs dmg with ITF, but lets be honest, if you are that decked out and the GF does more dmg you are doing something wrong. My conqueror GF was paingiver in some dungeon runs. He has 3.4 ish and IL R 12 bondings. A PvE DD with similar gear should do more dmg. A lesser geared DD does less dmg bc of his lesser gear, not bc of ITF. Regarding PvE leave it alone. PvP, I dont know.

Dont make connections, where no connections are. A BIS DD soloing a dungeon with min 1.7k IL does not show, that he is broken OP, but that the has outgeared the dungeon. A GF dealing more dmg then a DD does not need an ITF nerf, but better DDs.

lantern22

trivialrage#6656 said:

Are you a gf? Why would you want to help nerf it? If your not a gf, please stop trying to nerf our favorite class. I assuming you are ranged class that would like the ability to kill the gf before it gets to you?

Yes, his main is a GF. Personally I dont want to see further nerfs to ITF, especially a qol aspect of PvE

urabask

dolrey said:

Sorry for my english if I wrote or understood something wrong

I'm not talking about GF's damage. I really agree with all of you that GF's damage is normal.

I'm talking ONLY about strength of GF's ability to reach his target in PvP. I see how range classes try to break distance. But GF is much much faster.

PvP is so thoroughly broken that we really don't need people asking for nerfs that will affect PvE players.

silverkelt

Until they code and seperate all powers for pve and pvp, so they can throw switches on them differently , asking for rework to power for basically pvp purposes, shouldnt happen.

Once they get off thier arses and actually do that, then ask away.

Also GWF has been mired in mud for like 1.5 years.. it used to be the best and maybe most brilliant melee class i have ever played in a mmo.. Now about every class is more responsive, the moment you are out of stanima, you are standing still and stuck on a gwf.

They added delay after delay (ahem, cough, due to mod 2 gwf) and never restored those.

Even sprint, sprint with our SW and sprint with your GWF.. WORLDS of difference.

Which just doubles down on the fact, that asking for pvp nerfs that effect every aspect of the game, isnt good.

They HAVE to be seperated to fix both sides.

urabask

dolrey said:

urabask said:

dolrey said:

Sorry for my english if I wrote or understood something wrong

I'm not talking about GF's damage. I really agree with all of you that GF's damage is normal.

I'm talking ONLY about strength of GF's ability to reach his target in PvP. I see how range classes try to break distance. But GF is much much faster.

PvP is so thoroughly broken that we really don't need people asking for nerfs that will affect PvE players.

I had wrote in main post that one of the reasons of writing this thread is the fact that GF has too strong ability to reach his target (this movement buff). In PvP GF becomes the fastest class for the duration of ITF. And due to the fact that ITF has low cool down and can be active almost always it makes playing against GFs much harder for range classes because they can't keep distance from GF at all. So, I think that this change is PvP change too.

That's my point. Only PvP players want this.

95%+ of the player population does not play PvP regularly. Of those that do some of them don't even think this is an issue. It's likely that something like .1% of the player base cares about this. There are a lot of issues in PvP that you could focus on that matter. This isn't one of them.

turzan

nerf itf speed buff.. Huh good one.. Did U noticed gf is one of the slowest classes in game? thats why itf is equal imo, it is encounter power - thats fair enough got dmg and speed buff cuz we sacriface one power slit for it.. But ofc its only my opinion

oliboyph

dolrey said:

Sorry for my english if I wrote or understood something wrong

I'm not talking about GF's damage. I really agree with all of you that GF's damage is normal.

I'm talking ONLY about strength of GF's ability to reach his target in PvP. I see how range classes try to break distance. But GF is much much faster.

PVP needs a complete rework, in my opinion. I think removing a GFs ability to close down will make it almost irrelevant in PVP, The class will be forced to wait for targets to come near him rather than be able to chase them down. Similiarly, this will adversely affect PVE players.

I think based on what we have seen in the past, making small targeted changes in PVP has only made things worse, and much more for PVE. What class balancing needs is a sweeping change for all classes. Or probably even changing the mechanics of domination as a whole so it is not so one dimensional. Probably allow for players with high survivability to be usefull rather than completely favoring killers.

urabask

There's also the problem where itf is the only way GFs can get through areas like the path to the scorpions in elol.

schietindebux

ITF+steel grace from SM paragon leeds to the highest movementrate of all classes in this game, some classes can't catch up a GF inside dungeons by that. So if someone think this is a problem he might ask for other solutions.

checkmatein3

First, I have to disagree with the OP on ITF speed buff, because ITF boosts the speed of all party members, not just the GF. So, to say that the GF has its speed increased only in PvP is misleading.

Second, speed comes from so many sources, to change only ITF will not change things. Mount powers, mount bonuses, artifacts, enchants and more, all enhance movement. Lunging strike and Threatening rush were nerfed because they ignored movement bonus and worked more like an instant teleportation. To say that a ranged class cannot get out of the way of a GF with ITF in PvP says more about the team make up and positioning of the ranged class and his/her choices for gear and bonuses than it does to the over-speedness of the GF. Even without popping ITF, I outrun GWFs over the long distances who sprint and use up stamina BECAUSE I have made choices to boost my speed. Most of these choices are available to other classes as well. To nerf the function of ITF on the GF because opposing players in PvP have made their own team decisions and play style is incredibly short-sighted.

Third, I posted (several months back) a different boost to Tactician, so that the capstone does more than just give AP gain. I suggested to give it 2x the range for ITF (100') and AP gain of 100'. Thus, in both PvE and PvP, a Tactician GF in your party will give you more room to position as a ranged foe and get the speed bonus from your own GF at 100' and not just 50.'

dread4moor

ITF speed is not overpowered.
Not even the main reason we use it in PvE, just a nice side-effect.

ITF makes dungeons fly by quicker, saves minutes overall running fight to fight. Creates more playing time. ITF speed improves QoL for everyone.

Remove ITF speed from PvE just to cause another micro-Nerf to the awful NW PvP?

No thanks.

checkmatein3

You seem to present ITF speed as an end-all to speed and PvP superiority for the GF alone. Slotting ITF is itself a trade off for the GF to boost himself and the team. Second, you completely ignored the fact that opposing players have the ability to slot movement bonuses for themselves at a trade off for other things. The GF is the same. The GF gives up an encounter slot for the ITF, instead of, say, another attacking/dmg dealing slot, or controlling feature. Third, the opposing team in pvp can select a GF and position themselves to be within the range of ITF or out of range or inaccessible to GFs who use ITF.

I would say the problem with the opposing player in PvP who lacks speed is they think dps is all that they need and dont bother with speed, either for themselves or for their team make-up. And, when they come across a GF that is rated for speed AND who boosts the team as such, they are rudely awakened that speed is more than an afterthought in the utility option. Since you say you play the GF, you would know all this, but your presentation of ITF is so individual, you make it sound game-breaking in PvP for the GF. It is not.

vcek

I think the devs intentionally want to increase the mobility of GF, since paladins are much more tanky now, why else would they give 17% runspeed to passive (Steel Grace) with recent changes.

schietindebux

@vcek
You really think they got a "Masterplan"

lantern22

vcek said:

I think the devs intentionally want to increase the mobility of GF, since paladins are much more tanky now, why else would they give 17% runspeed to passive (Steel Grace) with recent changes.

Maybe, its not that much fun in PvE when your the tank and having to get hold of aggro when everyone has a head start of a sec or two. PvP would be different tho I guess

taribare

I wish they would separate PVP from PVE nobody complains in PVE.. but when PVP whiners complain because they have no skill and blame "overpowered" classes, we end game players suffer the most.. My GF Tank is sh@te now.. and I am not respeccing because ARC decided to nuke our class.. total b@llsh@t in my opinion. This is totally ridiculous, my heart goes out to dedicated players who spent time, money, and ground their butts off to build their tanks only to be told FU by ARC... ARC only wants $$ I guess from PVP transient players anyway.. sorry , but in my opinion PVE end game players are ones in for the long haul and don't flip for latest PVP game that comes out.. but we are ones who suffer. Thru with my soapbox and put it away.