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Arterial Cut vs Grim Pleasure
sirjimbofrancis
Member Posts: 348 Arc User
Okay, so I still have some testing to do to make sure these work exactly like they say they do, but I thought I'd maybe start the conversation rolling on this topic and put what I think is the correct maths down.
Grim Pleasure adds 5% power for 4 seconds whenever you make a critical strike which should insure almost a 100% up time.
On the surface, the higher your power, the more effective grim pleasure becomes based on the equation:
Damage=hit * (1+(power/40000)) * (1+ Total crit severity+ total combat advantage bonuses)
If we assume each hit is 2000 damage, a power of 30,000 and a crit severity of 150%, and combat advantage total bonus of 40%, our damage before grim pleasure is Damage=2000 * (1+(30,000/40,000) * (1+ 1.5 + .4) = 10,150
An increase of 5% power would give you:
Damage = 2000 * (1+ (31,500/40,000)) * (1+ 1.5 + .4) = 10,367.5
10367.5/10150= 1.0214 or 2.1% more damage
If we increase our power to 70,000, however and plug it in, it becomes 16,457.5/ 15,950= 1.032 pr 3.2% more damage
This buff is up, for all intents and purposes, all the time.
The big question is does it work based on buffed power or base power.
Arterial Cut adds 15% crit severity when in stealth.
Assuming the same perimeters, the difference in damage becomes:
Damage = 2000 * (1+(30,000/40,000)) * (1+1.5 + .4) = 10,150
With 15% crit severity, damage = 2000 * (1+(30000/40000)) * (1+1.65 +.4) = 10,675
10675/10150 = 1.052 or 5.2% increase in damage
This 5.2% increase is independent of power and doesn't go up if our power goes up, so that removes a bit of complication for this feat. However, it is only active from stealth. So, we need to figure out what percentage of out damage comes from stealth, which is going to be different for each of us depending on build and rotation.
I use stealth primarily for my big hitting encounter powers and for bleed ticks when I'm out of rotation, but I think I would be generous in assuming 1/3 of my damage comes from stealth. So, for me, if my total damage is x, the effectiveness of grim pleasure is a flat 2.1% (at 30,000 power), and the effectiveness of Arterial Cut would be .33 (.052) or .017 or 1.7% extra damage. So, (at 30,000 power), grim pleasure is better by an amount of .4% more damage.
Likewise, if your crit severity is greater than 150%, the effectiveness of arterial cut will go down.
Now, my base power is closer to 35,000 power so it would be slightly better for me assuming worse case scenario of Grim pleasure only buffing my base power. Arterial cut also wouldn't be as effective because I generally run with a bit higher crit severity than 150%. Grim Pleasure would be better still if it works off of buffed power.
Questions that I need to answer is:
1) do both feats work as described.
2) does grim pleasure work based on base or buffed power
I'm going to do some testing on this tonight and I'll let you know.
I think my math is right, but please correct me if I missed something.
Grim Pleasure adds 5% power for 4 seconds whenever you make a critical strike which should insure almost a 100% up time.
On the surface, the higher your power, the more effective grim pleasure becomes based on the equation:
Damage=hit * (1+(power/40000)) * (1+ Total crit severity+ total combat advantage bonuses)
If we assume each hit is 2000 damage, a power of 30,000 and a crit severity of 150%, and combat advantage total bonus of 40%, our damage before grim pleasure is Damage=2000 * (1+(30,000/40,000) * (1+ 1.5 + .4) = 10,150
An increase of 5% power would give you:
Damage = 2000 * (1+ (31,500/40,000)) * (1+ 1.5 + .4) = 10,367.5
10367.5/10150= 1.0214 or 2.1% more damage
If we increase our power to 70,000, however and plug it in, it becomes 16,457.5/ 15,950= 1.032 pr 3.2% more damage
This buff is up, for all intents and purposes, all the time.
The big question is does it work based on buffed power or base power.
Arterial Cut adds 15% crit severity when in stealth.
Assuming the same perimeters, the difference in damage becomes:
Damage = 2000 * (1+(30,000/40,000)) * (1+1.5 + .4) = 10,150
With 15% crit severity, damage = 2000 * (1+(30000/40000)) * (1+1.65 +.4) = 10,675
10675/10150 = 1.052 or 5.2% increase in damage
This 5.2% increase is independent of power and doesn't go up if our power goes up, so that removes a bit of complication for this feat. However, it is only active from stealth. So, we need to figure out what percentage of out damage comes from stealth, which is going to be different for each of us depending on build and rotation.
I use stealth primarily for my big hitting encounter powers and for bleed ticks when I'm out of rotation, but I think I would be generous in assuming 1/3 of my damage comes from stealth. So, for me, if my total damage is x, the effectiveness of grim pleasure is a flat 2.1% (at 30,000 power), and the effectiveness of Arterial Cut would be .33 (.052) or .017 or 1.7% extra damage. So, (at 30,000 power), grim pleasure is better by an amount of .4% more damage.
Likewise, if your crit severity is greater than 150%, the effectiveness of arterial cut will go down.
Now, my base power is closer to 35,000 power so it would be slightly better for me assuming worse case scenario of Grim pleasure only buffing my base power. Arterial cut also wouldn't be as effective because I generally run with a bit higher crit severity than 150%. Grim Pleasure would be better still if it works off of buffed power.
Questions that I need to answer is:
1) do both feats work as described.
2) does grim pleasure work based on base or buffed power
I'm going to do some testing on this tonight and I'll let you know.
I think my math is right, but please correct me if I missed something.
Post edited by sirjimbofrancis on
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It's less important on bosses, but it will affect the burst on mob pack (though we are talking about very low bonuses anyway, so not sure if it's that important)
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(and sorry for the spam)
And btw, thanks for putting the time, I think the TR got a bit awakened because of you.
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1. Grim Pleasure 5% is calculated from base Power.
Then:
Damage=hit * (1+(BasePower+0.05*BasePower+Buffs)/40000) * (1+CA+ Total crit severity)
Buffs like AA
2. The player has a CA 100% of the time in stealth.
Arterial Cut 15% Crit Sev, then
Damage=hit * (1+(BasePower+Buffs)/40000) * (1+CA+ Total crit severity + 0.15)
that is the formula for a single kick, it's not DPS.
for DPS use:
Damage=hit * (1+(AllPower)/40000) * (1+CA+ CritChance*AllCritSev)
Same for Shadowborn, and other buffs.
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(1+CA+ Total crit severity)
And CA multiple with Power
(1+Power/40000) * (1+CA+CritSev)
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@blur#5900 , if the feats work as advertised, I don't think there is much doubt that grim pleasure is better, unless you are running some kind of perma stealth build. So, it might be different for PVP, but in PVE, grim pleasure is probably the safer bet. BUT, I haven't tested it yet, this is all just on paper. I'll update as soon as I get a chance.
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I took off everything that altered my stats in preview, all boons, all companions except Erinyes of Belial (unsummoned), and I basically respecced without putting points into anything except choosing Master infiltrator.
REMEMBER THIS EQUATION: Damage = Base * (1+ Total Critical Severity+Total Combat Advantage)
I used Dazing Strike and got my base damage, my crit damage (non stealth), and stealthed damage.
Power: 18,381
Crit severity: 85%
Combat advantage = attribute bonus + stat bonus + base = 2% + 6.9%+ 15% = 23.9%
Base (includes power bonus): 2490
Crit (crit severity): 4606
Stealth (Crit + Combat advantage): 5200
So this checks out with our equation:
For just a critical strike Damage = Base *(1+(.85)) = 4606.5
For stealth hits we add in Combat Advantage= 2490 * (1+.85 + .2388) = 5201.6
I kind of expect it to be a point or two off as we are probable rounding some of the numbers that Neverwinter doesn't, or the numbers Neverwinter gives us are rounded from the numbers it uses to actually come up with the damage.
So, to sum up:
GRIM PLEASURES:
I took heroic feats that don't affect damage: Action Advantage, Swift Footwork, Improved Cunning Sneak, etc.
I took ONLY Grim Pleasure
I then attacked with cloud of steel until I hit a crit, and hit using dazing strike without critting, a hit critting, and a stealth hit.
My power went to 19,300 after hitting my first crit. The first hit you do does NOT get the buff.
Base hit: 2529
Crit: 4679
Stealth: 5282
This checks out with our previous numbers and equations:
2529/2490 = 1.0157 or 1.57% increase in damage.
This checks out this way, as well: (1+(19300/40000))/(1+(18381/40000))=1.0157 or 1.57%
The rest is pretty straightforward plugging in our numbers:
Crit damage = 2529 * (1+.85) = 4678.65
Stealth damage = 2529 * (1+.85+.239) = 5283.08
I added my companion with bondings and brutality rings and the change in power from Grim pleasure did not change so it is ONLY your BASE power.
ARTERIAL CUT:
I respecced using the same non effecting heroic feats and took only Arterial Cut.
Power: 18,381
Base: 2490
Crit: 4606
Stealth: 5574
The Base and Crit are identical to the test I did without feats, so that checks out, as expected.
The stealth should be 2490 * (1 + 1 + .239) = 5575.1
So, Arterial Cut performs as expected with an added 15% crit severity to damage delt while you are in stealth.
In this example, with these stats, hits from stealth do 5574/5200 = 1.0719 or 7.2% more damage with arterial cut. However, you have to keep in mind that that extra damage only counts in damage from stealth. If we are generous and say we do 40% of our damage from stealth, .4*.0719 = .02876 or 2.9% added damage with this feat. Compared with Grim Pleasure which we've already established, with these stats, gives us about a 1.57% increase in damage, it's seems Arterial Cut is the clear choice.
However, here is where it gets complicated (I know right?): The effectiveness of Arterial Cut goes way down the more Crit severity and combat advantage you get. For example, if you had 150% Crit Severity (pretty common end game) and 40% Combat Advantage Bonus (also fairly common), using my base damage stats from above, without Arterial Cut, you get stealthed damage of:
2490 * (1+1.5+.4)= 7221
Add in the 15% from arterial cut:
2490* (1+1.5+.15+.4)= 7594.5 or 7595 rounded
7595/7221= 1.052or 5.2% increase in stealth using Arterial Cut. Say you do 40% of your damage from stealth (which is pretty generous IMO), that gives it an effective damage increase of 5.2% * 40% = 2.1% extra damage.
BUT, as your base power goes up, Grim Pleasure gets better. To find out at what point our power needs to get to in order for Grim Pleasure to be better than Arterial Cut, we gotta go back to our maths (again):
We want to find the point at which our power increase with Grim Pleasure reaches 2.1%. Let's go back to this equation:
(1+(power1/40000))/(1+(power2/40000)) = percentage difference in damage that power 1 is over power 2
(1+(power1/40000))/(1+(power2/40000)) = 1.021
Then if we take x as our needed power and make the first power x * (grim pleasure buff), our equation looks like this:
(1+(x*1.05)/40000))/(1+(x/40000) = 1.021
Solve for x (rounding) = 28,966 base power needed to out perform Arterial Cut.
READ THIS PART IF YOU SKIPPED TO THE END:
So, here is the bottom line, fellow TRs: The Big assumption is the amount of damage you do from stealth. For me, I feel like I am being generous at assuming 40%. But that number is going to be different for everyone depending on their build. And, you don't have to go much higher than 40% to make it impossible for Grim Pleasure to keep up. For example, if you do 45% of your damage from stealth, the amount of base power you need to pass up Arterial Cut with Grim Pleasure jumps to 36,482. But, if you do 35% damage from stealth you'll only need 22,500 base power.
Keep in mind the variables: your base power, your crit severity, your combat advantage, and the amount of damage you do from stealth.
Also, realize that the difference between the two feats is, less than 1.5% damage.
Yeah, I just wrote a friggan dissertation over 1.5% difference.
I need an asperin.
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Appreciate the work you put into it though, takes guts, the numbers! But yeah, set aside a few stray decimals in the combat advantage part "Combat Advantage Bonus = 12.884%" which is where it wandered off a bit from what we know, I think the rest checks out too. It's as you say 1.5% damage so I wouldn't dig any further.
Just the sum of it is that you need 36K base power to get the juice out of Grim Pleasure, but Arterial Cut also suffers from high crit severity and combat advantage, so vorpal users watch out. Right?
Base*(1+CritSev+CA)
And base CA for ALL characters is 15%.
Formula for crit damage with CA
Damage = base*someModif*(1+0.15+Critical Severity+(Attribute-10)*0.01+Stat Bonus%+ΣCompanions Bonus%+0.1(0.15+(Attribute-10)*0.01+Stat Bonus%+ΣCompanions Bonus%)*Y)
If you have the Drow Ambush Tactics boon, then Y = 1, if not then y = 0.
That is copy from @thefabricant guide
arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1218736/m10-combat-advantage-calculations/p1
Crit severity: 85%
Base (includes power bonus): 2490
Crit (crit severity): 4606
Stealth (Crit + Combat advantage): 5200
So this checks out with our equation:
For just a critical strike Damage = Base *(1+(.85)) = 4606.5
To find out my exact Combat Advantage Bonus (because the stat bonus is rounded), I took the stealth damage and divided it by the critical strike damage which is 5200 / 4606.5 = 1.12884 or 12.884%
You already had the variables and was only solving for CA, so it could be...
5200 - 4606 = 594 (the added damage resulting from CA)
594 / 2490 = 0.2385 or 23.85% (the CA itself)
As we didn't have your stat rolls, I'm guessing it was 15% base + your rolls + other sources. Even a fully reset toon doesn't sit at the 15% base. We'd check with;
Final = base * (CritSev + CA) (no boons, comps, feats, etc)
Final = 2490 * (1+0.85+0.2385)
Final = 5200.365
But again, only proves true if your rolls were 18 CHA or close.
(Level_Base + Weapon_Base)*buffs1*buffs2*power*(1 - max (eDR - ArP),0)*etc..* ( 1 + I[critical_hit]*(Crit_severity) + I[CA]*(1 + I[CA_boon]0.1)*( 0.15 + AttributeCA+ CompanionsSum + StatCA)Where I[something] is an indicator for something and equal 1 when something = true and 0 when something false.
The usual CA for TR will be around 15% base, 5% - 15% from CHA (15-25 CHA), 9% stats (1200-1400) -> 29%-39% with the 10% boon -> 32% - 43% and we can have at most one companion at 5% (more is a waste, and one is perhaps debatable) so about 32% - 48.4%. so this is why the approximation for 0.4 is somewhere there. (have ti approximate to something or we gonna go to deep into functions)
This is why I like to use the forums! You all catch me on stuff I screw up!
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Thanks everyone.
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I see where I made my mistake! I'll fix it in a few.
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Thanks again everyone!
P.S.- Coffee is necessary for this kind of work.
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