A "KEY" compromise

uptondarkdiamond · October 2016

Ok, in light of this announcement: http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1223956/dungeon-key-changes/p1, it got me thinking about a lot of things in general how I (probably most players interact with a chest).

There are many suggestions brought up in that announcement to help alleviate player frustration with the upcoming changes.

THE ARGUMENT:

1. The vast majority of players decline the loot in the second chest (or the one that cant be opened with a VIP/Free key) because the content of the chest are not worth, i.e. close to the equivalent amount of time/cash to get said key.

An example of this problem (using dragon keys as an example) is atm the key cost 60 zen which is the equivalent to 30,000 ad.

Note 1:I will be using the salvage and chest contents from Throne of Dwarven Gods skirmish in my calculations.
Note 2:Assumption is current auction house market value and ZAX converstion.
Note 3:The below calculations do not include the first runs of the day AD value.

Then max value of the chest contents plus skirmish completions is:

max value = sapphire + salvage =

Saphire is worth about 3600 AD atm
Salvage1 = 2 x salvage value 2 +3/4 rings (as far as salvaging goes this is the best you can hope for in a skirmish)= 8800 RAD +
Salvage2 = value of top end item brought from seal vendor (the chest piece 3300 RAD), 60 seals for Gold run would take, 10 runs to get a chest piece: 3300/10 = 330 RAD(per run) +
Salvage3= value of top end campaign store item (the chest piece 6600 RAD)(30 demonic ichor per run) which means it will take 20 runs to get the chest piece: 6600/20 = 330 RAD(per run)

salvage value = 3600 + 4400x2 + 330x2 = 9460 AD (per run) this is if you Gold and manage to get 2 +3/+4 rings

min value = peridot + salvage =

Note 4:I am not completely sure on how many seals and ichor you get for a Bronze run , but I think its 20 seals in chest and 10 ichor no matter what you score.

peridot is worth about 400 ad atm
Salvage1 = 1 +1/+2 ring = 2200 RAD
Salvage2 = value of top end item brought from seal vendor (the chest piece 3300 RAD), 20 seals for Bronze run would take, 30 runs to get a chest piece: 3300/30 = 110 RAD(per run) +
Salvage3= value of top end campaign store item (the chest piece 6600 RAD)(10 demonic ichor per run) which means it will take 40 runs to get the chest piece: 6600/40 = 165 RAD(per run)

min value = 400 + 2200 + 110 + 165 = 2875

So the absolute value of the chest for ToDG could range from 2875 to 9460 RAD, or 9.58% to 31.5% of the value of the key... yeah thats pretty rough and not good RoI, at best the keys value will decline by 68.5%....

let that sink in for a bit....

DO YOU SEE WHY A PLAYER WOULD DECLINE TO GET THE CONTENTS OF THE CHEST????

Does the chest have relative value??? You bet it does. If i'm chasing after a +4 or +5 ring and I happen to get it the salvage value of that item is not relevant to the above equation.

So would I spend 30K AD to get a relevant item... I know some of you are asking "Is he really asking me this stupid question??" I know I would easily spend 50 times that to get a relevant item.

and what you all have been waiting for

THE PROPOSAL

1. Please ADD to the Zen store a universal/rechargeable key (make the price acceptable for, personally i could spend 5000 to 7500 zen for such an item)

2. This key should be account bound.

3. This key will be able to open any chest in any dungeon.

3. This key will be an Empowered Key. Before the groaning gets to loud from the player base please hear me out.
a. The Empowered meter would be filled by putting campaign keys/dragon keys, basically any key that is not free to get.
b. How much the meter fills should be determined by how difficult/expensive it is to get the filler key.
c. The will obviously only be able to be filled to a certain point.

4. Empowerment would decrease with each use.
a. An empowerment depletion check will be made once the chest is open.
b. If contest of the chest does not hold good relative value and small absolute value the minimum amount of depletion will be charged.
c. If the chest holds a medium/good relative value and medium/good absolute value a modest amount of depletion will be charged.
d. If the chest holds the very good relative value item a more generous amount of depletion will be charged.
e. If the chest holds the best relative item it will be depleted immediately.

5. To ensure that appropriate amounts of depletion the check there will have to be an exchange vendor added.
a. Not all +4/+5 rings have a good relative value. The relative value of such items depend on class and build. To ensure that the player gets what they want versus the depletion charge this vendor would ensure the relative value is true to that player class and build.
b. This will go a long ways to smoothing out some very troublesome spots with players atm i.e. getting +5 vision ring for a character that doesn't pvp....

6. Last and probably the most important part is that RnG check should be tiered by how empowered the ring is. Top Tier empowerment equal best chance to get the highly desirable items. Lowest tier equals the baseline chance to get those items.

LAST THOUGHTS

This type of key does a couple of QoL things that players are asking for and maybe make Cryptic some money in the process:

1. By being able to feed the empowered key it relieves some of the pressure of have this many keys in our inventory sucking up space:

Legendary Dragon Key
Daily Dungeon Chest Key
Epic Dungeon Chest Key
Standard Dungeon Chest Key
Mystic Dragon Key
Arcane Dragon Key
Dragon Queen’s Key
Lesser Demonic Key
Greater Demonic Key
Malabog’s Castle Key
Valindra’s Tower Key
Kessell’s Retreat Key
Ancient Runic Key
Dark Fey Key
Thayan Chest Key
Thayan Lair Key

2. It also give the players a chance to improve the games overall RnG.

@strumslinger @asterdahl @terramak @panderus @mimicking#6533 please take this idea into consideration. I know this is not something that could happen overnight but at least it points you all in a direction that some players maybe looking at as desirable.

What does the playerbase say to this idea? I look forward to hearing them, ohh and be kind to my math, i used a simple model to try and explain the absolute value of a key...

Thanks for reading!

kreatyve · October 2016

Very interesting approach. I like the Empowered key idea, but not sure that the devs would go for it. It would be better than the current system.

uptondarkdiamond · October 2016

Thanks for commenting @kreatyve . Though i'm a bit curious as to why you think it will be over looked by the DEVs.

I think if the make the Legendary Dragon have the highest empowerment value they will probably sell more keys than they do now. As, long as they make the empowerment value for the campaign and other such keys relative the value for those keys current have it shouldn't be an issue. What I mean by this is obliviously the Ancient Runic Key and Greater Demonic have more value (both absolute and relative) than a Dark Fey. To that then those keys (Ancient Runic Key and Greater Demonic Key) should have the more value when empowering the new key than the Dark Fey Key.

Also, if that key was used where the Dark Fey Key would normally get used it would use the appropriate levels depletion values based on the contents of the chest. This would represent the amount of empowerment that key was capable of giving.

If the problem with the key being account bound, whelp I would agree to a character bound version but i would not be willing to put 5K zen on that item, I don't know, maybe I would.... but 5K zen is 50 dollars or there abouts.. it a lot of money to spend on 1 character... just saying....

kreatyve · October 2016

Mainly because I think that they already have a plan in the works, though they have yet to share it with us. Also, historically, I've never seen them take a players idea like this and put it into the game. There have been many great ideas like this that have never made it into the game.

I have a theory about why this is, but it's just a theory and I could to be totally wrong. I think that maybe they don't take any player ideas and make them real in the game for legal reasons, because then they would have to provide compensation to the player for using their idea. As I said, I could be way wrong about it, but that's just my theory.

loboguild · October 2016

That's highly unlikely. Applying the logic wouldn't they need to pay for every bug report then?

Anyway, I think you don't even need to introduce a full new system. Just generally up the loot a bit and figure out a way to let players more directly buy progress with their campaign keys. Currently all you buy is Salvage and RPs, which loses the effort vs reward comparison.

uptondarkdiamond · October 2016

Hmm, i guess I see both points....

Kinda disheartening that is even a reason... So I guess we are to remain in angst until they reveal their plan and we shouldn't even bother trying to inspiring a fix into the game (i'm being a little melodramatic I know). Is this maybe the reason foundry is not as supported as it should be...

UGC is one of the things that make this MMO a little more unique. That said, Foundary has no incentive beyond the storytelling (which there are some really great stories out there). When it comes down to it, there is to much grind for me in this game to enjoy foundry as much as I would like to..

or another solution,

Hire me

elvalianon · October 2016

I like the idea, but this s only a solution for whales. The issue is present for all of us, big spenders, farmers and regulars. This key would only make this game more pay to win, I think the issue lies much deeper than this option can solve.

uptondarkdiamond · October 2016

@loboguild I agree that fixing the RnG with chest would help out a lot.

This however doesn't help out the fact that I have 16 slots of inventory space being used by the various keys.

It also doesn't help if I get the super rare item to drop and chances are it will not provide be the one the fits my class/build style.

@elvalianon I see you point. The numbers I gave are highly subjective and were randomly chosen. I'm just trying to think outside the box and maybe brought too many problems together with one solution.

The problems that I speak of can be found through out this forum (as the above poster know because I have seen em post in all the ones I was looking or commenting on myself).

The Problems

1. RnG. Which includes both getting a rare item you want it it also fitting into your playstyle.

2. No longer being able to decline undesirable chest contents. Does my solution get rid of the problem? No, but I think it would normalize how often we would end up getting undesirable contents or at least increase the absolute value found in the chest.

3. It relives the amount of pressure on our inventory space. To be honest keys are not the biggest offenders of this (RP by and far is the worst), but it is just one more thing that kill those inventory slots....

Again, thank for reading and posting folks!

excat56 · October 2016

I will say we shouldn't HAVE to buy anything to have even a remotely decent chance of obtaining items that are meant to be obtained. They need to give players reasons to spend money, other than forcing them to to actually be viable late end game characters.

I want to spend money on stuff I want, not what I HAVE to have to be viable end game.

nameexpired · October 2016

uptondarkdiamond said:
Ok, in light of this announcement: http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1223956/dungeon-key-changes/p1, it got me thinking about a lot of things in general how I (probably most players interact with a chest).

There are many suggestions brought up in that announcement to help alleviate player frustration with the upcoming changes.
[...]

Will never happen. Your suggestion does not use 15 slots in your bag. Bag space = income.

uptondarkdiamond · October 2016

Ok, again I see the points that people are making here. The problem I think some are looking at the numbers for buying the Empowerment Key, this was just some random number I choose.

I guess 5000 zen does seem a little much at first glance. This is how I view my real life money spending habits on entertainment (when it comes to MMO's). When MMO's first came out there was no such thing as free to play, everyone of them you had to buy the game and than pay a monthly subscription. Actually, to be honest this is my first free to play game I have ever played.

Getting back on track, so a subscription based game cost (these days) and average of 15 dollars a month. So, if used cash to buy zen and than used as a monthly subscription, that would buy me 3 and 1/3 months of game time (50/15=3.333....). Next thing I will say is that the game makers put effort into releasing content (this is not FTP for them).

They have no guarantee on exactly how much money will flow from this game month to month, in my book that could be a scary situation. They rely on the zen store to produce most of the income they get from the game, np that how they do it. They sometimes run into problems (like Mod 6, where they probably lost a lot customers, some FTP, some paying customers), which inevitably decreases the incoming cash flow, np again that is how they do it.

So, the problem with power gamers (people that eat up content fast) and long time players (people like me that have been playing pretty much since release) is that the zen store offers very little for them to buy.

I admit i'm an altoholic, I have been with every MMO i have played. I like figure out the different playstyle of each class available in that MMO, and neverwinter is no different for me. So, when I look to buy something it has to have an account wide option (normally). If it doesn't have that option I probably will not buy it. If it does not have that option but it's critical item (preservation wards obviously fall in this category) or if it account wide but its not great (some of the class packs fall in this category) then I will by with astral diamonds or converted zen.

If it is account wide that I find desirable (Hero of Norrath Pack) I will spend real life cash on it to support the game and the game makers. I stray from buying consumable (unless they are cheap) and bind to character things (companions) because they represent a 1 of purchase that only boost 1 character. By stray I mean even with AD or converted zen, in my book they have a very bad RoI.

So the question I ask myself if I was playing a subscription game (were your practically BiS, mostly because you have been playing the game forever), is that item worth the time???

In this case, for me the answer is yes. I would spend 50 dollars on this (if it was balanced correctly), well at least the account wide version of it.. it might be tough sell if it was just for 1 character...

Here are my reason I would consider it worthwhile:
1. I no longer have to carry a HAMSTER tone of campaign keys around.
2. I think if balanced correctly (empowerment vs. depletion) it would help normalize RnG by keeping the Empowered key charged.
3. If I finally get a +5 ring or equivalent (I have seen exactly 0 drops so far after many many runs) but its not the one I want I could easily exchange it.

I think people that have a useless +5 ring currently would love to have a way to exchange it.
I think people who have no luck with RnG (like me) would love a way to get a bump.

Granted they could add these things to the game for free, but I will say that sometimes they add some free stuff that maybe they shouldn't (as long as it does not cost an arm and a leg and is not a use and forget item).

Some may not like that i'm going to say this but the change they did with the Identify scrolls, stacking to 999, I would have paid for that. 10 bucks account unlock stack scrolls to 999, sold to this guy.... (well 10 bucks might be a bit much). If i wanted to remain FTP than I would be doing what i did before this QoL change... keep maybe 3 stacks discard the rest... it really wouldn't effect my game play overall if I chose not to buy into something like this.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want Cryptic making it hard, and than introducing a must have from the zen market just to make a buck ( /tin foil hat on, even though I think they sometime do the /tin foil hat off). But, I personally don't see a problem with paying a small chunk of change for QoL changes that doesn't drastically effect game play if you choose not to purchase them. After all I think this game was at one time called a FTP with micro transactions, were are my micro transactions?????

uptondarkdiamond · October 2016

You know forget the 50 dollars, what if some or all of this was added to VIP?? What would you all think than???

elvalianon · October 2016

uptondarkdiamond said:

@elvalianon I see you point. The numbers I gave are highly subjective and were randomly chosen. I'm just trying to think outside the box and maybe brought too many problems together with one solution.

Understandable, I appreciate the time you took to think of something different. I have not read beyond your key suggestion as I was too tired yesterday. Will take some time later today to do so.

ironzerg79 · October 2016

excat56#5321 said:
I will say we shouldn't HAVE to buy anything to have even a remotely decent chance of obtaining items that are meant to be obtained. They need to give players reasons to spend money, other than forcing them to to actually be viable late end game characters.

I want to spend money on stuff I want, not what I HAVE to have to be viable end game.

@excat56#5321 Exactly. If you're now FORCED to spend real money to get decent loot in this game, might as well just shut it down and put it out of it's misery.

@uptondarkdiamond I appreciate the thought you put into this, but I think the solution is far simpler.

Regular dungeon loot should be accessible to players without paying any money or required any sort of key. I don't think the solution is "how do we make keys more valuable" but more of a "why do we even have keys in the first place?"

The problem is this whole "key" thing is band-aids on top of band-aids at this point. Way back when, the only way to get loot was to kill a boss. Boss died loot dropped. There was a dungeon chest that had bonus loot in it if you finished the dungeon during the bonus hour.

Which, was actually not that bad of an idea. It really encouraged people to jump on running dungeons like crazy during Dungeon Delves to get better loot.

But then it was deemed unfair to players who could play during Dungeon Delve hour. So Cryptic introduced the keys. You got one free key a day, and could buy more. The key would give you your chance at better dungeon loot once a day, which again, was a good idea.

Then more and more keys started making their appearance in campaigns for a "bonus" chest tied to the campaign. Then later we got keys in the Zen shop added so you could get more bonus campaign loot out of the chests by paying money. More and more keys started to get added, and then it just got to the point somewhere post-module 6 (the agreed upon lowpoint of this game) that getting loot was going to be tied to keys.

And now here we are.

So I'd challenge the people in charge of these systems @mimicking#6533 @asterdahl to think about how we can get away for basically the "pay to earn" dungeon loot. Dungeon loot should be earned by over-coming the challenge, not paying for it at the end via some sort of transaction hidden behind keys.

Get rid of them altogether.

beadin · October 2016

Mod 10 seems to think boxes inside boxes are a good idea, so I have a simpler solution. Since most loot is garbage anyways, just do away with loot all together. Bosses can drop keys or boxes. Boxes that also contain keys and/or boxes.

Just keys and boxes, all the way down.

ironzerg79 · October 2016

excat56 · October 2016

ironzerg79 said:

excat56#5321 said:
I will say we shouldn't HAVE to buy anything to have even a remotely decent chance of obtaining items that are meant to be obtained. They need to give players reasons to spend money, other than forcing them to to actually be viable late end game characters.

I want to spend money on stuff I want, not what I HAVE to have to be viable end game.
@excat56#5321 Exactly. If you're now FORCED to spend real money to get decent loot in this game, might as well just shut it down and put it out of it's misery.

@uptondarkdiamond I appreciate the thought you put into this, but I think the solution is far simpler.

Regular dungeon loot should be accessible to players without paying any money or required any sort of key. I don't think the solution is "how do we make keys more valuable" but more of a "why do we even have keys in the first place?"

The problem is this whole "key" thing is band-aids on top of band-aids at this point. Way back when, the only way to get loot was to kill a boss. Boss died loot dropped. There was a dungeon chest that had bonus loot in it if you finished the dungeon during the bonus hour.

Which, was actually not that bad of an idea. It really encouraged people to jump on running dungeons like crazy during Dungeon Delves to get better loot.

But then it was deemed unfair to players who could play during Dungeon Delve hour. So Cryptic introduced the keys. You got one free key a day, and could buy more. The key would give you your chance at better dungeon loot once a day, which again, was a good idea.

Then more and more keys started making their appearance in campaigns for a "bonus" chest tied to the campaign. Then later we got keys in the Zen shop added so you could get more bonus campaign loot out of the chests by paying money. More and more keys started to get added, and then it just got to the point somewhere post-module 6 (the agreed upon lowpoint of this game) that getting loot was going to be tied to keys.

And now here we are.

So I'd challenge the people in charge of these systems @mimicking#6533 @asterdahl to think about how we can get away for basically the "pay to earn" dungeon loot. Dungeon loot should be earned by over-coming the challenge, not paying for it at the end via some sort of transaction hidden behind keys.

Get rid of them altogether.

You sir, get it. Bravo!

From research I've done, and what I've read from what few veteran players that do still post here, the game has devolved with time, instead of evolved. Instead of rewarding players for showing 3 years of commitment to the developers of this game, supporting them, you've actually just continued to punish anyone that has any type of vested interest in their pocket book. Devolving more and more into pay to play (viably).

I cannot argue that you cannot play the game for free, because you can. You cannot play the game as it was intended to be experienced for free, not even in the slightest.

trigga681 · October 2016

Is this solution too simple? Each chest is free open but inside the chest have a lock box so you get the free items and then pay for a key to open the box if it is relevant to what your are chasing? The lockbox would then have a "pay for" key to open or could be traded to recoup some of your hard earned Zen/AD. i.e A rising power lock box (guess what) guarantee a ring of +4 with chance of +5 (rng) and maybe throw a decent enchantment pack in with it to add to your new ring? Or, just a legendary ring lockbox with a choice of +5 ring in it as if I had one of those I would be happy to pay some Zen for it.. Just a thought...

btairborne · October 2016

kreatyve said:
Also, historically, I've never seen them take a players idea like this and put it into the game.

Ain't that the truth. A waste of time to come up with anything but suggestions of what you want and let the devs implement how they see fit. To me the key change is occurring because PWE finally realized the veteran BIS or near BIS players are playing for free. I think they know these players might quit, but what value do they have to PWE anyway? Not much I would think.

uptondarkdiamond · October 2016

Yeah I guess it is kind of a convoluted system, sometimes you only see the merits of something from you point of view but it's not until you share that idea that you may find it has flaws.

In a way I do miss the old dungeon delve system, but don't forget that had its own set of issue's.

One of those was that the need/greed version allowed for people to ninja loot even though your group may have agreed upon a system at the beginning of a dungeon. Another one, which kinda still applies now, is that it could take you awhile to see the set piece drop that you were looking for (HV headset i'm looking at you).

I don't like how dungeon loot works now and I don't like the million(i'm exaggerating for flare ;p) different keys I have taking up my inventory space now. The key thing was never a problem before no it is....

Again, thanks for reading my suggestion and posting your comments!

A "KEY" compromise

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