general difficulty of all dungeons

wurmschwanz

Hey there,

because we were bored we started a game: we ran eLoL, eToS and CN with different groups. Always with gs from 300 to 900. We did it all. It was easy. We didn't have any companions or artifacts. Just our mainhands (and GF, Tr and HR hat offhand too) and our chestarmor. We only have 2k power and 3,2k defense and someone in the run from another guild only 2k lifesteal. Here you can see how easy it was to do CN.

Note: Two chars are twinks and don't have all boons. My DC is a DO without AA and the sw couldn't do much dmg because our stats were so low. So pls don't cry about our group, we just had these classes at the moment. Our gf is a pvp character and is no buff-gf.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJxoseRMPB8&feature=youtu.be

fdsakhfduewhfiuf

What's your point? Fine if it is easy for you. Still people fail to finish dungeons.

Btw. the next module will bring a new tier of difficulty. Wait for that. Test it. Then it's time to complain again.

wurmschwanz

My point is that the game is so broken and the content is so broken that there are players who can do it without gear, artifacts, companions etc. and groups who don't know how to play as a group fail. Don't you think that it's a problem that people with a gs from 300-900 can do CN easily? I wanted to prove that the problem is not only bondingrunestones, gear, stats etc. The problem is the general design of dungeons. I don't know why you can't understand what I want to point out.

wurmschwanz

And btw: They can't design difficult dungeons if there are people who run around with several millions power. I know that not everyone can get these stats but there are a lot who can get these stats! How are they supposed to design something which is difficult? They just can't with all the broken classes, boons etc.

thefabricant

Agreed with OP.

strumslinger

Hopefully, Fangbreaker Island will offer more of a challenge to everyone.

tripsofthrymr

strumslinger said:

Hopefully, Fangbreaker Island will offer more of a challenge to everyone.

I'm afraid it will only be a challenge for all but the newest players if the issues addressed in this post are not first tended to. The post is originally about bonding runestones but several other game-breaking interactions are also raised in the replies.

It is not just the elite players that benefit from those problems. Many, many players have copied the overpowered/broken builds. It is the rule rather than the exception that parties melt content far easier than probably intended, even for a casual MMO.

To the original poster's issue, CN should be very hard at this point in time. It is not. I have ever only lost once in perhaps 50 runs with a wide variety of parties and that was due to very bad lag preventing powers from triggering when they should. Orcus just stands in the middle of the arena and is perfectly content to fight pets while being melted from the edge.

I know that some of the issues with CN were raised by early testers (I was one of them). Please plan enough time in the development cycle for Fangbreaker Island to process feedback from alpha testers (if you are doing that this time) or from those that try it out on preview. I know the schedule is tight. In the past you have received really good feedback from dedicated players willing to test content early but don't have a stellar track record of incorporating that feedback in a timely manner. Working together, developers and players, we can make Neverwinter even much better than it is today.

torontodave

@strumslinger you tease.

revan06100

What about boons ? companion insignia bonuses ? you didn't show us everything there, legendary weapons increase your weapon damages as well, increase heals for DC's, and power points ? Average players don't necessarly have these things, though i agree that your group combination works pretty well, could you do the same with an op prot and devo ?
We already know that some combinations of DC/GF give broken bonuses...
Orcus normally deals around 700 000 damages...
to take damages like 15 to 30k, you must have something clearly broken to give that much dmg resistance if i follow your reasoning...

ajlir

wurmschwanz said:

Hey there,
because we were bored we started a game

What do you mean by "we"? Are you saying that you're playing with a closed group of friends to raid? It's a very good thing to have when most newbies won't be able to find what you have.

wurmschwanz said:

we ran eLoL, eToS and CN with different groups. Always with gs from 300 to 900. We did it all. It was easy. We didn't have any companions or artifacts. Just our mainhands (and GF, Tr and HR hat offhand too) and our chestarmor. We only have 2k power and 3,2k defense and someone in the run from another guild only 2k lifesteal.

I see that GF have axe beak. Need more details on mounts and insignia bonuses on your run. And you're running legendary weapons, weapon and armor enchants and HP bonus from VIPs.

wurmschwanz said:

Here you can see how easy it was to do CN.

So I heard. And pray tell, how has that worked out for PuG runs?

wurmschwanz said:

gg ez

You have only proved that with a closed group of friends and get people who knows how you want them to play. I don't see any proof you're doing it with random people that you can trust your life with. Are you trying to tell me to type in raid chat and tell people to be tactful and understanding? Oh yeah. I can't. Because someone doesn't know English.

tripsofthrymr

ajlir#7970 said:

You have only proved that with a closed group of friends and get people who knows how you want them to play.

In my option that's the only way that the current top-tier content of any game should be winnable with average gear (let alone this far-below-average gear). I know my view is not shared by the publisher, with its focus on being a very casual-friendly MMO. For me the game was a lot more fun when there was some content that took real planning and coordination to best.

chemjeff

Would you care to explain how the DC in your party could have an ilvl of 510 but nevertheless have 13,440 power?

chemjeff

Or, how the HR in your party could have an ilvl of 934 but 16k power and 6.5k crit?

goodyearbadday

All this proves is that iLvl is a broken indicator of player strength... I sincerely hope that the upcoming changes to class balance are not using this as their foundation.

fdsakhfduewhfiuf

Anyone remember module 7 (I think)? They raised the difficulty and suddenly people complained that dungeons were too difficult. As a consequence they reverted (most of?) the changes.

Also keep in mind that dungeons are meant to be run again and again and again. Loot is based on low chances. Most people will likely not want to run dungeons again and again if they fail again and again. If dungeons are too difficult and take too long to run they get pointless. It will feel like a waste of time then.

Having to farm tons of Dungeoneering Shards also calls for quick dungeons.

Now that you showed us how easy CN is for you please do this with eGWD and eCC? I'd like to see that.

chemjeff

tripsofthrymr said:

It is the rule rather than the exception that parties melt content far easier than probably intended, even for a casual MMO.

I would just like to remind people that even to this day, if you solo queue for ELOL, you are likely to find a party that is stuck at the scorpions.

dfnce

revan06100 said:

What about boons ? companion insignia bonuses ? you didn't show us everything there, legendary weapons increase your weapon damages as well, increase heals for DC's, and power points ? Average players don't necessarly have these things, though i agree that your group combination works pretty well, could you do the same with an op prot and devo ?

I think properly focused Devo would overheal everyone even on lowest gs, protector could still be useful with boosting party with auras and Enmity/Vow. But agree, AA and ITF make stuff easier.

Speaking of gs, 15 second of vid presents quite different scores. Basically it shows what player could have by using T1 gear + r7. People should present all gear and enchantments, no need to rush

rapo973

chemjeff said:

Would you care to explain how the DC in your party could have an ilvl of 510 but nevertheless have 13,440 power?

Because there are no links between IL, builds and interactions. 13K is a very low value for 2 DCs interacting: this is the proof that they are....nude (or close to).

chemjeff said:

Or, how the HR in your party could have an ilvl of 934 but 16k power and 6.5k crit?

Read above.

commanderdata002

fdsakhfduewhfiuf said:

What's your point? Fine if it is easy for you. Still people fail to finish dungeons.

Btw. the next module will bring a new tier of difficulty. Wait for that. Test it. Then it's time to complain again.

The point would be dungeons are too easy.
And its far from a valid counter argument that there are random pugs with no coordination who can't do it!

taitinhakkaaja

Dungeon difficulty is well balanced for rewards they provide.

rapo973

taitinhakkaaja said:

Dungeon difficulty is well balanced for rewards they provide.

You're not too far from the truth

wurmschwanz

Okay, here are many opinions and I try to answer to most of them:
1. Yes, we have boons on. We didn't want to waste a respecc token just for a fun-run. This run was not made for posting it online but after the runs we decided to post it. Sure, we have boons. Guild boons (Loothochdruck): 2k power, 3,2k defense. Natsu from ,,Der Pakt" has only 2k lifesteal. Carsten Stahl (Gf) and Molun (DO DC) are twinks. Neither Carsten nor me have all boons (for example the complete maze engine, tyranny just 2-3 boons).

2. Insignias and Mounts: Yes, we had our insignia boons and our mounts with 2k extra stat. But you can see that Carsten doesn't do much dmg even with this boon of 2k armpen although he's a conqueror. We couldn't buff us extremely through insignias because our basic stats were so low.

3. yes, I speak as ,,we" because we are a guild (Loothochdruck) and Natsu is from our alliance (Der Pakt). I didn't say that it's the same with randoms. But I don't think randoms should do this because it requires a lot of teamplay.

4. We talked about eLoL, eToS and CN (the dungeons we did like this but with other groups) and we think that eGWD would be harder because we can't kill the mobs fast enough. We can try it soon and update this post but I bet it will be harder. These runs were just for testing and playing our little game (when someone dies he's out and not allowed to help anymore etc. just as the rules in the vid)

5. I think we could do CN with a different group, we did eLoL and eToS before with Gf (conqueror), Gf (tactican), dc (AC), Gwf (SM) and our HR (trapper). No problems at all and my guild said we would have been faster in CN with my gwf instead of my dc but I had all the astraldiamonds from dungeons at this time on my gwf so I wanted to run with dc for ad. To the point with pally: We don't have pallies in our guild so we can't do this. I have a pally twink (pvp skilled, normally 1,7k) but I don't wanna do something like this with a class I don't like and honestly can't play well enough. I think we did so well because we play these classes long enough to know them and we know how to play as a team with these classes.

6. Sure, legendary weapons with perfect to trancendend weapon ench. do a lot. Natsu (previously in eLoL and eToS with his dc) and Carsten Stahl bought Level 10 weapons or something like this and ran with them but we thought it would be too hard when our supporters just have these low weapons.

7. Sure we buffed us, as much as it was possible but I don't think we were over 50k. Maybe 20-25k.

PLEASE REMEMBER: We did this run with some twinks. We geared so low that we shouldn't be in this dungeon normally! (It needs 2k ilvl), we didn't have companions or something like this. AND we did it as a game, if someone was killed he wasn't allowed to help til the entire group wipes. We had so low stats that we couldn't buff us extremely. PLEASE REMEMBER: This dungeons should be one of the hardest at the moment. It is designed for chars who are level 70 and have 2k at least. Our gs was from 300-900. Sure, we could have respecc and don't have boons, mounts, skills on level 4 etc. We could have used level 1 weapons or something like this. But pls remember that this dungeon is not for Level 1 characters!

What we want to show: If you have a team of people who know how to play as a team with their characters you can easily do this dungeon although you are not even allowed to get in this dungeon! It shows that the main problem aren't bondingrunestones, gear, artifacts etc. It shows that the general design of the content is unbalanced and too easy once you know how your class works. We hope that Devs see this video and think about the word ,,endcontent". Because the design of this endcontent is - at the moment - not good at all. And honestly I don't think they can do any content which is challenging for teams who know how to play. Just think about this group when it's geared? CN is so easy, I went afk yesterday and just used /follow. You don't need a tank. You can easily pull everything and just melt it down. Classes have to be fixed before new content can be designed!

Ps: Sorry for my english, I'm not a native english speaker.

candinho2

strumslinger said:

Hopefully, Fangbreaker Island will offer more of a challenge to everyone.

I just wish my sw with full gear hit 8k (non critical/buffed)on atwills like that GF. That alone would make me renew my vip membership. What you think Strumlinger? will i renew my vip membership or not? Wanna make a bet? i vote for NO ofc. And i'n not even asking for 150k critial encounters like that gf, just an atwill!

fdsakhfduewhfiuf

commanderdata002 said:

fdsakhfduewhfiuf said:

What's your point? Fine if it is easy for you. Still people fail to finish dungeons.

Btw. the next module will bring a new tier of difficulty. Wait for that. Test it. Then it's time to complain again.

The point would be dungeons are too easy.
And its far from a valid counter argument that there are random pugs with no coordination who can't do it!

Just like it is not a valid argument if some people think it is to easy. That doesn't make them too easy.

Throughout the last three years there were always people complaining that dungeons were too easy. Just like there were people complaining that they were too difficult. Funny thing is that they're probably both right.

The only way of solving this is to have different tiers of difficulty. You cannot find one level of difficulty that suits all types of players.

wurmschwanz

Oh, and btw: I don't say that it's wrong to have easy dungeons. It's the opposite: I think it's nice to have some easy dungeons for quick runs to get some ad. But the problem is: We ONLY have easy dungeons. For a guild with people from 2,5k ilvl and above there is NOTHING which is challenging. Tiamat is melting in alliance runs, first round kills, many people with <2,5k are with us in Tiamat. eDemo? Nothing epic, just killing. And killing it too fast will end in a bugged Goristro.

What I wish is a variety of dungeons and difficulties. It's okay to have 1,6k dungeons and 2k dungeons like now. But I wish there were dungeons (I prefer the old ones) for people who WANTS the difficulty. You are a casual with low gear, no guild and you don't wanna think about your class? k, no problem. Here are eLoL, mc, vt for 1,6k and eToS, eGWD, eCC and CN for 2k. Do it.
But what are the others supposed to do? Soloing dungeons? I'm in my guild because I want to play with my people, I want to do something with them and achieve the win in a hard dungeon. Why is the focus on guild and guild alliances when there's no need?

deathbeez

fdsakhfduewhfiuf said:

Anyone remember module 7 (I think)? They raised the difficulty and suddenly people complained that dungeons were too difficult. As a consequence they reverted (most of?) the changes.

It was mod 6 and the majority of players quit including about 80/90% of my guild. I left for half a year. I should of stayed gone, but my GF is still in love with this game even though the writing is on the wall for it's future.

You'd think they'd be smart enough by now to stop listening to 1 or 2% of their players.
Lots of people struggle just to finish the T1s. Pug and you'll see it all the time. They don't post on this forum or have insane gear scores. If they develop this game further ignoring that bigger_then_ever gear-gap. It's over. This game can't survive with a player base of 50.
Stop thinking players are employees. They have agendas, and will skip to the next game the moment your studio has locks on the doors.

Do yourself a favor. Write down the names of the posters saying yata yata is too easy, use the find person feature in-game and see for yourself why they're so overpowered. They worked hard to do it (or paid). Lowest IL I ever saw for a forum-complainer about difficulty was about 3.4k.

silverkelt

There is way more then 50 players at 3k gear score.. there is 260 in crusaders alone.. I would estimate more like 3000-4000 players past this point.

What exactly are these thousands of players supposed to do with progression? Just dont do it?

If you want to talk about lowering the power curve, IM ALL for it. Ive given reasonable ways of doing that without totally wasting peoples efforts , like the linear enchant change, allowing players with r9s to be way closer to players with r12s, then they are now.

These sort of changes shouldve been done ages ago. The upgrade progression modeling is done wrong.

A more linear model, would flatten the power increase and progression, allowing a wide range of players to play together more easily.

There still is need for a mechanic change.

For example, first boss of CN, should have ALL players bonding together for like 10 seconds at a time, forcing people to use either skills , but it would force the group to all move away from the tank. It should do it no less then 3 times in the fight.

Second boss, cieling should drop about 3x as much as it does.

and lastly ORCUS should move.. so if your tank wipes, your dead.

Mechanic checks should trump gear checks, in addition they have a hard time coding true immunity to bosses, allowing them to be burnt past a mechanic check alot of times.

Some of the boss burning is coming from interactive power functions from both the GF and DC, allowing insane hits, its not just the GF that needs a tone down, the DC HAS TO HAVE hastening light fixed , OR COMPLETELY removed from the game.. I wish they would just disable it, until they can figure it out.

(but of course they have a hard time with that.. I mean they removed DG functionally , because they cant figure it out)

talon1970

Well just a few words from me, bc i am in the same guild as the OP.

Sure they had an great advantage against pure pug groups, but thats imho not boons, mounts, insignias and so on.
It is one simple thing.....we are using voice chat aka teamspeak.
So we can coordinate far better than an pug group where everyone is doing something, but often not that what is necessary at the moment.
For an example, if we are fighting a boss, we are waiting with our strongest attacks, for the call from dc and gf that all buffs/debuffs are up and then we are firing everything we have against them.

A pug group cannot do this, except they are all very experienced players who knows every buff/debuff sign against an enemy.

I would say in an normal pug group more than half of the dps they could make is lost, bc they don't know or don't care how to build up stacks proberly (Gwf/Cw for example).

I am with both sides that people still have trouble with the actual content meanwhile others roflstomped everything solo or with an extreme dps or buff/debuff groups.

With mod 6 we had our trouble aswell, we couldn't finish (with dr bug) something like eTOS, we wiped often enough on the first larger add group, but then we got advice from members of an befriended guild and we took that advice.
So we rised, we learned, we were running complete rainbow, testing the synergys between different classes in an time were others running with an bubbledin, haste DC and as much GWF's people could get in the PE or /lfgchat.

Also we were testing active companions in the past with debuff potential, like Lillend or Harfner Bard in an time everyone were going for fast procc *and as much gifts they could give if they die and will resurrect* companions.

And so our chars rised, my Mainchar was at 2k ilvl at mod 6 and now i have reached at the last double RF Weekend the mythical 4k, without buying stuff from AH bc it was my personal decission not to feed botters with my AD.
So it costs me only time and a lot of wards to bring up every single enchant up to 12.
Sure i have spend some real cash into the game (mounts, stuff for Stronghold, VIP, Keys if i was in the mood), but normally not to buy something from the AH to increase a char, i am proud that most everything i have is selfmade.
(ok i bought some cheap green insignias for my alts to get the bonus, but thats it).

So i can't understand why new people (or better i can it), if they are new to the game, are fresh 70 and they want the same stuff, the same succes , in 1-2 weeks, meanwhile i have struggled for an long time now.
This is "fast food" get best stuff, as fast as you can get it, adios embryos, cya in next game...

sockmunkey

So basically you want content so difficult that the only way it can be done is with perfect coordination over voice chat?

This is honestly part of the core problems with the game. Buffs are insaely overpowered. Buffs should assist and and speed up the battle. Not be the deciding factor. You can gain far more by having a single DPS and several buffers over just having several DPSers.

All this video proved, is with the right combination of buffs and perfect timing to take the greatest advantage of them, gear and most everything else becomes secondary.

This is also the main source of the player devide. Those who can maximize buffs stomp the content. Those who cant, or are unable too, fail.

wildfirede

Respect to the op,

to all saying random pugs fail - find friends it is a MMO...

Yes we need new interesting content and by interesting i hope the new last boss challenge is not only him hitting for 1mil. so we have to use pets...