Remove Quartermaster ICD.

jugger71

Now that we can no longer trade and/or sell enchantment and RP drops from Quartermaster's could you please remove the ICD?

This only affects me and my characters. I have never been banned nor suspended so I assume that means you have deemed me a legit player. Therefore why am I adversely affected by your efforts to curb exploitation and botting?

Remove it, please.

ambisinisterr

"Therefore why am I adversely affected by your efforts to curb exploitation and botting?"

Welcome to life.

In a perfect world people wouldn't break laws/rules.

As this isn't a perfect world steps have to be taken actions for the benefit of all have to be taken that often hurt all as well.

For instance I am a law abiding citizen and have never been accused, tried or found guilty of any crime above a traffic violation. When I go to the airport I am still stuck in hours of security checks along with every other law abiding citizen due to the actions of a few horrible human beings.

The goal of any measures taken against those who break rules is to minimize the collateral damage to those who follow the rules. It is rarely possible to not impact everybody to prevent the actions of a few.


As for the ICD, it is there for balancing purposes beyond just a measure against bots. I personally don't like ICD's and prefer them to be transparent but as a general rule of thumb cooldowns on various items are balanced for reasons other than the economy. Maybe there might be room to reduce the cooldown (unlikely) but outright removing it is something I don't think the developers will consider.

urabask

ambisinisterr said:

"Therefore why am I adversely affected by your efforts to curb exploitation and botting?"

Welcome to life.

In a perfect world people wouldn't break laws/rules.

As this isn't a perfect world steps have to be taken actions for the benefit of all have to be taken that often hurt all as well.

For instance I am a law abiding citizen and have never been accused, tried or found guilty of any crime above a traffic violation. When I go to the airport I am still stuck in hours of security checks along with every other law abiding citizen due to the actions of a few horrible human beings.

The goal of any measures taken against those who break rules is to minimize the collateral damage to those who follow the rules. It is rarely possible to not impact everybody to prevent the actions of a few.


As for the ICD, it is there for balancing purposes beyond just a measure against bots. I personally don't like ICD's and prefer them to be transparent but as a general rule of thumb cooldowns on various items are balanced for reasons other than the economy. Maybe there might be room to reduce the cooldown (unlikely) but outright removing it is something I don't think the developers will consider.

Pffft. They've said that QM enchants are giving about the same RP that DHEs give before they hit their ICD. The problem with that is that people are taking QM enchants for enchantments and artifacts and players need A LOT more of that type of RP than they do resonance. So I don't really buy the idea that they're taking measures to reduce collateral damage because they don't seem to understand why people were using QM enchants in the first place. We've got a dead RP market because cryptic decided to fight the bots without implementing any way to actually get RP because they can't figure out to give us enchants without bots flooding the AH. So they give us a BtA source of enchants but they nerf it into the ground so that it doesn't provide anywhere near the amount players need especially given the investment needed. If their intent for QM enchants is for them to provide a slow trickle of RP they need to make them a lot cheaper to make.

beckylunatic

When they first slap a hard limit on something and then bind it shortly thereafter, I think it's reasonable to revisit the limiting factor. Perhaps not lift altogether, but take a good hard look at whether the first measure is not now too much when taken in conjunction with the later change.

dupeks

magenubbie said:

I would already be happy if they actually showed the cooldown. Both in between drops and their "daily" active time left.

I think this underlines the real problem with a lot of these changes: lack of transparency, and lack of communication.

I think a lot of players would be a whole lot less upset with these kinds of decisions if the reasoning was explained, the actual mechanics were made understandable to average players, and changes were announced with a reasonable lead time.

The fact that players have to either test everything themselves last minute or use unsupported resources / others' discoveries to understand even the basic mechanics of this game is detrimental to the game play and to the community as a whole. It also creates unnecessary divides between players, and encourages hoarding information instead of sharing.

I sincerely believe this game and community would be much better off if the devs and community moderators made a deliberate effort to be more transparent with the players. It would drive community engagement, and lead to a better product all around.

jugger71

ambisinisterr said:

"Therefore why am I adversely affected by your efforts to curb exploitation and botting?"

Welcome to life.

In a perfect world people wouldn't break laws/rules.

As this isn't a perfect world steps have to be taken actions for the benefit of all have to be taken that often hurt all as well.

For instance I am a law abiding citizen and have never been accused, tried or found guilty of any crime above a traffic violation. When I go to the airport I am still stuck in hours of security checks along with every other law abiding citizen due to the actions of a few horrible human beings.

The goal of any measures taken against those who break rules is to minimize the collateral damage to those who follow the rules. It is rarely possible to not impact everybody to prevent the actions of a few.


As for the ICD, it is there for balancing purposes beyond just a measure against bots. I personally don't like ICD's and prefer them to be transparent but as a general rule of thumb cooldowns on various items are balanced for reasons other than the economy. Maybe there might be room to reduce the cooldown (unlikely) but outright removing it is something I don't think the developers will consider.

Well thank you for your insulting and patronizing remark. I am not a child nor an idiot. Thank you as well for answering and addressing my question in the final paragraph.

dupeks

ambisinisterr said:

As this isn't a perfect world steps have to be taken actions for the benefit of all have to be taken that often hurt all as well.

For instance I am a law abiding citizen and have never been accused, tried or found guilty of any crime above a traffic violation. When I go to the airport I am still stuck in hours of security checks along with every other law abiding citizen due to the actions of a few horrible human beings.

I find it interesting that you used this as your example.

There's a lot of evidence coming to light that the security circus we've crafted with hours of security checks is not helping keep our airports secure. More recently, the security lines themselves have become a target for terrorist attacks.

In a strange way, I think that it's a perfect analogy for how some of the recent changes were billed as "anti-bot" measures, did little to prevent botting (as evidenced by AH listings), but did end up significantly hurting players.

So I agree with your example Ambi, but I think it supports the opposite of the point you were trying to make.

oldbaldyone

Take the refinement system, throw it away, burn it. Then try again and try to make a system that doesn't reward simple repetition over playing the game, and hopefully a system that doesn't involve 160+ individual items and serve to promote bag and bank sales.

ambisinisterr

dupeks said:

In a strange way, I think that it's a perfect analogy for how some of the recent changes were billed as "anti-bot" measures, did little to prevent botting (as evidenced by AH listings), but did end up significantly hurting players.

That is all very true.

I am not saying it is the right solution. The show Adam Ruins Everything did a wonderful job showing how certain precautions such as the TSA go too far and yes those thoughts were running through my head while typing. It was simply the first example I could think of as well as the fact in the real world such actions make people feel safer so regardless of the ineffectiveness of the TSA the average person still tends to view them in a positive light. However that is about as far into that as this conversation should really go.

I don't view items to boost RP drop rates as a solution at all. I have always viewed them as a bandaid.
Truth be told I am more inclined to agree with oldbaldyone although I am more in favor of rebalancing the RP each item grants as well as how much RP is needed to rank up rather than burning the system to the ground.

However no matter what, any solution which is put into effect to limit the abuse of a few will virtually always hurt the many. The TSA is an extreme example mainly because it is well past the point of diminishing returns but virtually everywhere you look you will see some sort of negative impact to all in order to better all. As I said, the goal should always be to minimize the negatives and maximize the positives but it doesn't always end up happening or even being possible.

mightyeriksson

oldbaldyone said:

Take the refinement system, throw it away, burn it. Then try again and try to make a system that doesn't reward simple repetition over playing the game, and hopefully a system that doesn't involve 160+ individual items and serve to promote bag and bank sales.

^ This one gets it...

dupeks

ambisinisterr said:

However no matter what, any solution which is put into effect to limit the abuse of a few will virtually always hurt the many. The TSA is an extreme example mainly because it is well past the point of diminishing returns but virtually everywhere you look you will see some sort of negative impact to all in order to better all. As I said, the goal should always be to minimize the negatives and maximize the positives but it doesn't always end up happening or even being possible.

Putting aside the TSA example, I respectfully but completely disagree in the context of Neverwinter.

There are a number of solutions that could limit abuse without hurting the many, some even detailed maturely on these very forums. Most of those, however, involve limiting access to the market or dramatically changing it's makeup, and would likely have far-reaching consequences to the in-game economy.

It's hard to know much about the $ to Zen economy, but it's safe to say Cryptic relies on it and any predictable decrease in incentive to buy Zen needs to be offset with some other revenue stream. Currently, I'd wager buying RP on the AH is a significant source of AD spend, which helps drives Zen sales. Reduce the need for RP or give players an easier free source and daddy will feel it in his bottom line.

My favorite solution, and one I think might work, would be to put effort into monetizing cosmetics and possibly certain time-gates (imagine having zen store items that make whatever timers your working on tick faster). New players would still spend on class packs, keys, and boosts. Old timers would spend their money on fashion and extensively manicured graphic effects (which it's clear the devs care about and spend time on anyway).

I know some might be angry because this is a strategy taken by some other (mobile) games, but if it allowed them to maintain the integrity of the core game while still making money it's a compromise I'd be willing to make. Besides, this game already has plenty of these kinds of "gem-like" purchases going on (think campaign packs, professions rushing, etc.), it's just burdened character progression with a bot-reliant economy that in my opinion isn't necessary.

TL;DR: It's possible, but changing the monetization strategy for this game would be a big step for the folks upstairs.

greywynd

beckylunatic said:

When they first slap a hard limit on something and then bind it shortly thereafter, I think it's reasonable to revisit the limiting factor. Perhaps not lift altogether, but take a good hard look at whether the first measure is not now too much when taken in conjunction with the later change.

I agree with this.

asterotg

Did anyone ask and get an answer to the question. If they wanted to make another dragon hoard enchant, why did they not do it in the first place, but created a new one and nerfed it to kingdom come after ppl spent millions of ADs on them?

We had Fey and dragon enchants, they have ICD and cooldowns. The new one had neither. Now it is similar with the little difference, that it costs millions to be viable. Are they so sloppy or was this intentional?

schietindebux

I can't think oft any resonable argument to not adjust the droprate from QM enchant.
The actual droprate is abysmal , about 10 bags in a row and done for the hole day, having spend millions of AD few week ago and being punished this way is laughable and one reason ( beside missing fixes and classbalancing we asked for ages) for just logging in , grab my key and logging out.

taitinhakkaaja

I'm one of those many that spend millions to get decent rank quartermaster's. Since i don't need any RP, i don't have any personal benefit from quartermasters -> gained bags goes to guild coffer.

silverkelt

adjusting quartermasters regardless of what they do with them, does not solve the enchant problem.
Newer players have no real access to super expensive enchants, nor do I think they should be the solution, if they are in game, fine, allow them for poeple to get quicker access to gear, but in no way shape or form, should they be the final and only solution.

I hate these things with a passion, they removed 50-60% of the rp bots were selling , then put in these things that you are supposed to shell out a couple million AD for per toon? this is highly unreasonable. Super highly unreasonable solution.

Ya no thanks, stuff them. This only works if you play 1 toon all the time, doesnt work for newer players at all!

What we need is being able to play the game and get enough RP to get everyone of toons progressed.

At the moment getting 3-4 blue enchants per dungeon run is simply not enough.

kalina311

schietindebux said:

I can't think oft any resonable argument to not adjust the droprate from QM enchant.

The actual droprate is abysmal , about 10 bags in a row and done for the hole day, having spend millions of AD few week ago and being punished this way is laughable and one reason ( beside missing fixes and classbalancing we asked for ages) for just logging in , grab my key and logging out.

@jugger71 also creator of the thread
@schietindebux

none of you seem to get it ,,,,how is this for a reasonable argument not to touch the drop rate...

Bots still use the bound Rp dropped to create and feed items that are unbound and sellable !!!!

It has nothing to do with bound to account only for me so its safe and can harm no one

Imagine a bot with a no cool down Quartermaster that drops bound to account items constantly collecting all day (24 hours) in their bottled stronghold instance ..then feeding and selling enchantments that are no longer bound sounds sketchy to me .... essentially laudring thier dirty bound Rp and cleaning them into a fresh unmarked unbound enchantment

see thats makes it on the knifes edge as an exploitable source and hard to balance and number in terms of how many should drop a day to give back to a real player

I must admit players that invested in these yet again had the wool pulled over their eyes

however as a saving grace If you have quartermaster bags unopened and someone lends you thier
set to open them you will get a higher drop rate ..of good stuff then you can hand them back so they can be shared at least

nothing else in the game has that escalation of loot mechanic for next to no investment (to the persone borrowing : D)
so save up you bags and them open them in one chunk with borrowed Quartermaster the whole group can just get a couple each and then pool resources

schietindebux

kalina311 said:

schietindebux said:

I can't think oft any resonable argument to not adjust the droprate from QM enchant.

The actual droprate is abysmal , about 10 bags in a row and done for the hole day, having spend millions of AD few week ago and being punished this way is laughable and one reason ( beside missing fixes and classbalancing we asked for ages) for just logging in , grab my key and logging out.

@jugger71 also creator of the thread

none of you seem to get it how is this for a reasonable argument not to touch the drop rate...

Bots still use the bound Rp dropped to create and feed items that are unbound and sellable !!!!

It has nothing to do with bound to account only for me so its safe and can harm no one

Imagine a no cool down Quartermaster drops bound to account constantly collecting all day then feeding and selling enchantments that are no longer bound sounds sketchy to me ....

see thats makes it on the knifes edge as an exploitable source and hard to balance and number in terms of how many should drop a day to give back to a real player

I must admit players that invested in these yet again had the wool pulled over their eyes

however as a saving grace If youhave quartermaster bags unopened and someone lends you thiers
set to open them you will get a higher drop rate ..of good stuff then you can hand them back so they can be shared at least

nothing else in the game has that escalation of loot mechanic for next to no investment (to the persone borrowing : D)
so save up you bags and them open them in one chunk with borrowed Quartermaster the whole group can just get a couple each and then pool resources

So in your eyes 10 bags a day, that´s about 12 rank 6 enchantments, are a good soulution to feed your artifacts to legendary, wich needs an ammount of serveral million AD´s? Beside that you can farm rank 5 enchants in the same time , one hour, and doing better by that.
Sharing enchantement in your community? Sounds very enjoyable for me, no thanks
My solution is STOP PLAYING THIS POOR GAME for now, since all decisions made in this game prove this company to have near no sense for the community/customer and no clue or plan where to go.

kalina311

I dont do the math as to what they determine the poor drop rate should be

sharing with guildys who said the community ?

I was only trying to explain that bound to account/character does not mean the rps are not exploitable like some people think

P.S at higher levels it is dropping rank 6s 7s and 8s which you can not farm in an hour let alone at all

inyawayupdeep

I think the quartermaster's enchantment did exactly what the devs wanted it to do, it got a lot of people excited, thinking they found a solution to the economics of the game and got them to spend money to refine them so they would as efficient as they could be, now that they got the cash it's time to yank the rug out from under us once again. Don't think that this was in any way unforseen by the devs, especially being so soon after the dragon hoard enchant nerf. give them a little credit, they aren't that dumb, just devious.

wildfirede

Dont want to rib someone's nose but sold mine as they costed much and warned people that this would happen

ambisinisterr

Silverkelt understands things perfectly. The hoards and quartermasters are bandaid and not solutions.

demonmonger

Thereally are faster ways to get rp drops than these enchantments.. message me in game if you need rp.

deathbeez

deathbeez said:

I'm not falling for upgrading something then having it nerfed to uselessness 2 months from now again.

You play this game long enough, you will learn when things are too good to be true.

kalina311

surely a new system is needed from the ground up where gear grows with you like xp

greywynd

kalina311 said:

surely a new system is needed from the ground up where gear grows with you like xp

Dragon Bone weapons and Ensorcelled Mulhorand weapons.

jugger71

Perhaps some have misunderstood. I am trying to look at this from a new players perspective.

I made 4 rank 10s. Big whoopdy doo. It didnt costs millions or whatever. But the currencyy I spent might break a new player. It certainly would be better used on other things to improve a character performance.

For me, its annoying and frustrating. This kinda thing is exactly why people keep leavung the game.

You cannot release something that requires an investment and then nerf it into the ground shortly after people invest in it. I suppose you can because this game has done it over and over again. but you cannot
to keep customers if you continue to do it.

There are reasons the player base is at an all time low.

blackjackwidow

beckylunatic said:

When they first slap a hard limit on something and then bind it shortly thereafter, I think it's reasonable to revisit the limiting factor. Perhaps not lift altogether, but take a good hard look at whether the first measure is not now too much when taken in conjunction with the later change.

Agreed - but I would go back to the order in which they do these things. Surely, they knew they were going to bind them in the first place (anyone who has played this game since mod 6 knew it was going to happen). Why not bind it first, THEN look at the limiting factor.