Return of the Old Dungeons - Leveling, but not Epic.

katamaster81899

Alright, so I was on preview, when I saw a dev state that the dungeons that are returning will NOT be epic level 70 dungeon runs. They will be LEVELING dungeons only. That's right. Not level 70. Only CN is going to be a level 70 dungeon.

So, once again, I believe we are getting another mod containing pretty much no new content? Don't even get me started on CN, That's going in a thread of its own.​​

jumpingmorks

But have you seen the new mount system, it's absolutely epic! As for the epic versions of new dungeons, we can probably expect them in due time even if it isn't on Mod 9 release.

foxxy

My gosh!. bye bye frozen heart

wanderer0000

well if they dont add the new dungeons on epic version that would not be the biggest fail in the history of this game, that would be when they first removed them... but will be pretty fail in any case.

midnightflares

jumpingmorks said:

But have you seen the new mount system, it's absolutely epic! As for the epic versions of new dungeons, we can probably expect them in due time even if it isn't on Mod 9 release.

I absolutely admire your optimism.

aimeesellers

This is totally unacceptable. We have been waiting for MONTHS for the return of these dungeons... being told they were being reworked to fit into the new power structure. And now we find out they are returning as leveling dungeons? What a joke... What a waste of time... what an utter failure and disappointment.

What in the world took this long to "redo" with them not returning as level 70 dungeons?

Again... the community has been completely ignored.

katamaster81899

aimeesellers wrote: »

This is totally unacceptable. We have been waiting for MONTHS for the return of these dungeons... being told they were being reworked to fit into the new power structure. And now we find out they are returning as leveling dungeons? What a joke... What a waste of time... what an utter failure and disappointment.

What in the world took this long to "redo" with them not returning as level 70 dungeons?

Again... the community has been completely ignored.

If you think that this is the full extent, wait till you see CN. It's practically a bunch of demonic HE's strung together. I've got half a mind to quit right now.​​

vida44

Basically the title sums it up.

Except CN, the devs that were on "Play with the devs" event on Preview said that the dungeons that are returning will not have Epic version in this module.

Please prepare for the same old grind of the same old dungeons (+ CN).

asterdahl

This is correct, Caverns of Karrundax, Frozen Heart, Cloak Tower and the Lair of the Pirate King (Returning as "Vault of the Pirate King") will only be available as 3 man dungeons for now. That being said, those dungeons, along with all other dungeons will be getting an significant EXP bonus that is granted upon completion. Making them excellent ways to level new characters or earn power points. In addition we're overhauling how seals work before endgame, unifying and simplifying them and adding more useful repeatable purchases to make with those seals.

Castle Never and the Maze Engine campaign are the pieces of content that we are targeting at endgame players this module, with the former being a new tier 2 dungeon, on the same difficulty level of the Epic Dungeon version of Cragmire and Temple of the Spider, albeit with new challenges and mechanics to overcome, and some new rewards to obtain.

Creating an Epic Dungeon version of an existing dungeon is certainly a somewhat easier task from an environment art perspective than making an entirely new dungeon, but there is still a lot of design work, as well as effects, animation, character art and testing that go into remaking a dungeon into a new endgame experience. Naturally on any given project, there are only so many resources, so if we spend time going back to re-master an old dungeon, that's time that can't be spent making new things.

While there's certainly a possibility that some of these dungeons might receive an epic dungeon treatment at some point, keep in mind that we'll be continuing to build new things as well.

gankdalf

asterdahl said:

This is correct, Caverns of Karrundax, Frozen Heart, Cloak Tower and the Lair of the Pirate King (Returning as "Vault of the Pirate King") will only be available as 3 man dungeons for now. That being said, those dungeons, along with all other dungeons will be getting an significant EXP bonus that is granted upon completion. Making them excellent ways to level new characters or earn power points. In addition we're overhauling how seals work before endgame, unifying and simplifying them and adding more useful repeatable purchases to make with those seals.

Castle Never and the Maze Engine campaign are the pieces of content that we are targeting at endgame players this module, with the former being a new tier 2 dungeon, on the same difficulty level of the Epic Dungeon version of Cragmire and Temple of the Spider, albeit with new challenges and mechanics to overcome, and some new rewards to obtain.

Creating an Epic Dungeon version of an existing dungeon is certainly a somewhat easier task from an environment art perspective than making an entirely new dungeon, but there is still a lot of design work, as well as effects, animation, character art and testing that go into remaking a dungeon into a new endgame experience. Naturally on any given project, there are only so many resources, so if we spend time going back to re-master an old dungeon, that's time that can't be spent making new things.

While there's certainly a possibility that some of these dungeons might receive an epic dungeon treatment at some point, keep in mind that we'll be continuing to build new things as well.

That blows. We need 5 dungeons for endgame. not leveling. Its like you totally ignoring what the playerbase is asking for.

katamaster81899

asterdahl wrote: »

This is correct, Caverns of Karrundax, Frozen Heart, Cloak Tower and the Lair of the Pirate King (Returning as "Vault of the Pirate King") will only be available as 3 man dungeons for now. That being said, those dungeons, along with all other dungeons will be getting an significant EXP bonus that is granted upon completion. Making them excellent ways to level new characters or earn power points. In addition we're overhauling how seals work before endgame, unifying and simplifying them and adding more useful repeatable purchases to make with those seals.

Castle Never and the Maze Engine campaign are the pieces of content that we are targeting at endgame players this module, with the former being a new tier 2 dungeon, on the same difficulty level of the Epic Dungeon version of Cragmire and Temple of the Spider, albeit with new challenges and mechanics to overcome, and some new rewards to obtain.

Creating an Epic Dungeon version of an existing dungeon is certainly a somewhat easier task from an environment art perspective than making an entirely new dungeon, but there is still a lot of design work, as well as effects, animation, character art and testing that go into remaking a dungeon into a new endgame experience. Naturally on any given project, there are only so many resources, so if we spend time going back to re-master an old dungeon, that's time that can't be spent making new things.

While there's certainly a possibility that some of these dungeons might receive an epic dungeon treatment at some point, keep in mind that we'll be continuing to build new things as well.

@asterdahl

Can you please explain the reasoning for the developer team deciding to make the dungeons leveling difficulty instead of endgame content? As it is, I think the majority of the playerbase would like to see these dungeons as endgame content, because they're pretty much useless to us if they aren't endgame. What was the thought process behind making this decision?​​

meirami

That's a huge disappointment to me. The developer blog lead me to believe that all those four dungeons would get an epic version, because there was a picture of Frozen Heart right under "Epic Dungeons" title. Oh man.

gankdalf

Who asked for remakes of the old dungeons in the first place? We asked for upgrading them to our new endgame levels not a total rework of the dungeons themselfs. Also we asked for ENDGAME dungeons, not leveling dungeons. I cant believe you spent months of work on the wrong things. Thats just wow..

The old CN was 10 times better than the new one. Time well spent making a worse version.

katamaster81899

ejziponken wrote: »

Who asked for remakes of the old dungeons in the first place? We asked for upgrading them to our new endgame levels not a total rework of the dungeons themselfs. Also we asked for ENDGAME dungeons, not leveling dungeons. I cant believe you spent months of work on the wrong things. Thats just wow..

The old CN was 10 times better than the new one. Time well spent making a worse version.

@ejziponken

Vote here then, hopefully we can get some numbers showing that the majority of the playerbase feels that way: http://forum.arcgames.com/neverwinter/discussion/1211752/old-cn-vs-new-cn#latest​​

asterdahl

I posted a response on the preview thread RETURN OF THE OLD DUNGEONS - LEVELING, BUT NOT EPIC, that is relevant to this discussion:

asterdahl said:

This is correct, Caverns of Karrundax, Frozen Heart, Cloak Tower and the Pirate King's Retreat (Returning as "Vault of the Pirate King") will only be available as 3 man dungeons for now. That being said, those dungeons, along with all other dungeons will be getting an significant EXP bonus that is granted upon completion. Making them excellent ways to level new characters or earn power points. In addition we're overhauling how seals work before endgame, unifying and simplifying them and adding more useful repeatable purchases to make with those seals.

Castle Never and the Maze Engine campaign are the pieces of content that we are targeting at endgame players this module, with the former being a new tier 2 dungeon, on the same difficulty level of the Epic Dungeon version of Cragmire and Temple of the Spider, albeit with new challenges and mechanics to overcome, and some new rewards to obtain.

Creating an Epic Dungeon version of an existing dungeon is certainly a somewhat easier task from an environment art perspective than making an entirely new dungeon, but there is still a lot of design work, as well as effects, animation, character art and testing that go into remaking a dungeon into a new endgame experience. Naturally on any given project, there are only so many resources, so if we spend time going back to re-master an old dungeon, that's time that can't be spent making new things.

While there's certainly a possibility that some of these dungeons might receive an epic dungeon treatment at some point, keep in mind that we'll be continuing to build new things as well.

amvek said:

You mean they lied on this post?

http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/9771453-developer-blog:-dungeons-to-delve

I understand the confusion, the top section addresses dungeons that are returning to the game. The bottom section is sort of a state-of-the-game about dungeons, which examines the difference between dungeons and epic dungeons, in reference to what is there, and things coming in Module 9 like Castle Never, which is an epic dungeon.

I also noted that unfortunately that the image of Frozen Heart and Gray Wolf's Den were swapped between the Dungeon and Epic Dungeon headers. This was an unfortunate mix up that Strumslinger has already gone ahead and fixed up. Apologies for any confusion that image may have caused.

gankdalf

They should just create polls for every single decisions in the future because cleary they have no idea what they are doing.

kiraskytower

asterdahl said:

This is correct, Caverns of Karrundax, Frozen Heart, Cloak Tower and the Lair of the Pirate King (Returning as "Vault of the Pirate King") will only be available as 3 man dungeons for now. That being said, those dungeons, along with all other dungeons will be getting an significant EXP bonus that is granted upon completion. Making them excellent ways to level new characters or earn power points. In addition we're overhauling how seals work before endgame, unifying and simplifying them and adding more useful repeatable purchases to make with those seals.

...

While there's certainly a possibility that some of these dungeons might receive an epic dungeon treatment at some point, keep in mind that we'll be continuing to build new things as well.

This ... is so not what we have been asking for. There is plenty of content while leveling up. In fact, leveling up is some of the best content in the game. The area in the game lacking content is the end game. Instead, you have in fact made things here worse. You have added a new mount system which gives us even more power and given us just one new dungeon to use it in. I can only hope the difficulty in Castle Never is such that we actually need all this gear we have been gathering but I have a feeling it's going to be an easy run you leave down at the 2000 or 2500 item level.

gankdalf

@asterdahl @terramak

Can you please save the game by just add higher levels and new loot in the OLD dungeons without changing anything else? Because these news is gonna make so many players quit. I dont get why you spend so much time and effort on leveling dungeons that we didnt ask for at all. And I dont know why you making new versions like CN that are really really bad compared to the old style.

This is epic fail in investment of time and resources.

asterdahl

katamaster81899 said:

Can you please explain the reasoning for the developer team deciding to make the dungeons leveling difficulty instead of endgame content? ​​

With Module 6 we made some changes to the way dungeons and epic dungeons worked. With dungeons, we reduced the amount of players required and shifted away from designing fights to require roles, so that those queues could fire more quickly and players could play these dungeons as they level up, regardless of the disparity between players playing various roles.

With epic dungeons, we wanted to continue to enforce role restrictions and move towards encounters that more strongly required roles and cooperation.

Unfortunately, with these goals and changes in mind alongside the level cap increase, those dungeons couldn't really be left active as-is in a meaningful way. This means that bringing that content back, and making it relevant to the current game takes a significant amount of work. In the case of epic dungeons, designed for a 5 man endgame team with role restrictions, the amount of work is significantly higher, only a certain amount of the team can work on content of that level, and the burden of testing that content is much higher.

Those team members and that time are often devoted to working on new content, encounters like Demogorgon, etc. This module we set aside enough time to bring back Castle Never with new and epic boss fights. We'll be continuing to work on a mixture of totally new content and nostalgic content for endgame.

As far as why we chose to bring some of these dungeons back as leveling dungeons. With Module 9 we're introducing a big EXP bonus to leveling dungeons, to give new players and those leveling alts an alternate path of advancement, and really improve everyone's experience when leveling. To coincide with those changes, and the updates to the queue system, bringing back the 4 dungeons that are returning as leveling dungeons is a much smaller task that doesn't involve nearly as much rigor in terms of design, or testing, as generally the mechanics and tuning in these dungeons is much easier.

Thank you for the continued feedback, hopefully that explanation helps!

meirami said:

That's a huge disappointment to me. The developer blog lead me to believe that all those four dungeons would get an epic version, because there was a picture of Frozen Heart right under "Epic Dungeons" title. Oh man.

Thank you for noticing this, this was an unfortunate mix up of the images that Strumslinger has gone ahead and fixed. I apologize for any confusion caused by that image.

aimeesellers

asterdahl said:

This is correct, Caverns of Karrundax, Frozen Heart, Cloak Tower and the Lair of the Pirate King (Returning as "Vault of the Pirate King") will only be available as 3 man dungeons for now. That being said, those dungeons, along with all other dungeons will be getting an significant EXP bonus that is granted upon completion. Making them excellent ways to level new characters or earn power points. In addition we're overhauling how seals work before endgame, unifying and simplifying them and adding more useful repeatable purchases to make with those seals.

Castle Never and the Maze Engine campaign are the pieces of content that we are targeting at endgame players this module, with the former being a new tier 2 dungeon, on the same difficulty level of the Epic Dungeon version of Cragmire and Temple of the Spider, albeit with new challenges and mechanics to overcome, and some new rewards to obtain.

Creating an Epic Dungeon version of an existing dungeon is certainly a somewhat easier task from an environment art perspective than making an entirely new dungeon, but there is still a lot of design work, as well as effects, animation, character art and testing that go into remaking a dungeon into a new endgame experience. Naturally on any given project, there are only so many resources, so if we spend time going back to re-master an old dungeon, that's time that can't be spent making new things.

While there's certainly a possibility that some of these dungeons might receive an epic dungeon treatment at some point, keep in mind that we'll be continuing to build new things as well.

Thanks for your response. While I am sure it does take considerable time to rework a dungeon into epic... we have all been led to believe for months that is what we were getting. Especially considering that is what was taken from us... and the time it has taken to get them back. I am going to go out on a limb here and say that just about everyone wanted... and expected... level 70 versions of these dungeons. Why was it decided that was not going to be done?

I am afraid this has put a serious damper on the excitement we were all expecting. The joy we all felt a few days ago upon seeing the announcement of their return... has now been replaced by anger and frustration. These dungeons should have been brought back as epic dungeons... not leveling ones.

EDIT: You posted more explanation while I was writing this. Again... thanks for the reply. But I would have rather seen 2 epic dungeons return instead of 4 leveling ones. I doubt I am alone.

However... if I read the queues page correctly... it is now possible to enter a dungeon with less than the required number. It seems that if you select a private queue, and to not check "Leave queues when a member leaves"... you can queue up 5 for eCC... 2 (for example) could drop... and 3 go in from the start. Is this correct? If so... it presents us with an easier way to make the existing dungeons more challenging.

gankdalf

lol I feel like they look the the numbers on "leveling toons" and dont understand that 90% of those are BOTS. So they create dungeons and HAMSTER for that population of the game because the numbers are so high. And then the endgame players that actually are real players are stuck with no content at all to play.

GG

mirlegris

@asterdahl

Sorry, but i don't understand the goal of this mod.

1) Levelling 1-60 is already too fast ( few hours ). Levelling 60-70 is really an horrible thing.
2) Players want Dungeons. New Dungeons, Old Dungeons, we need content. And content in line with our level and our equipment. Currently the majority of players can do the current T2 without difficulty, without pleasure in 5-15mn.

With this mod :
1) You give us low-levels dungeons ( so no challenge for 80% of the playerbase ) with XP reward ( too much for pre-60, welcome for 60+, a little useless for 70 ).

2) You give us more and more power and survivability ( mounts, rings, artifacts, companions ) with the next module. And.. a T2 Dungeon that a 2.5k team can clean in 20mn ? And a campaign for 60+ without any difficulty ?

So, what is the message ?

"There is no Endgame Content in this game, 3k+ players, you can leave and return at the mod 10 launch in july".

11 months. 11 months between the remove of dungeons ( mod 6 ) and the come back of 1 real Dungeon (mod 9), a dungeon denatured without any challenge.

Thanks for you work, i know it's not your fault, but this game is dead for me. Good luck with this mod.

valynstarfire

If you cannot provide the Epic versions of these dungeons by the release date, then for god's sake, postpone the release. As of late, you guys have promised more or over-promoted what was coming out and it has lead to MAJOR disappointment. Case in point, you seemed to promise LOCATIONS in the Underdark, we got a town. Strongholds, we got an area, to be sure, but honestly it has taken an inordinate amount of time to go upgrade our Strongholds (nice to see the cost reductions coming finally). Elemental Evil, a flop of taking out many things, and giving very little to replace them.

It is time to stop adding things half-*$%.

mirlegris

No contents, no players, maybe with the mass exodus of players within a month or two they will review their positions.

mutjinninja

asterdahl wrote: »

With Module 6 we made some changes to the way dungeons and epic dungeons worked. With dungeons, we reduced the amount of players required and shifted away from designing fights to require roles, so that those queues could fire more quickly and players could play these dungeons as they level up, regardless of the disparity between players playing various roles.

This was a good move. I liked the ability that I've had, you know, since Beta to run the dungeons with any party make up I choose.

asterdahl wrote: »

With epic dungeons, we wanted to continue to enforce role restrictions and move towards encounters that more strongly required roles and cooperation.

What role restrictions? This is news to me. There have never been any restrictions on the game like this. Have you ever tried searching for a healer and tank for a dungeon that isn't elol? best of luck, not happening. Why should we be forced to have a party composition that you deem appropriate? Why not leave it up to the players on how to play the game? This change to the queue system for existing epics that DON'T NEED tanks or healers (or just healers, as OP is OP) is condescending. I don't want to be told how to enjoy your game and have my fun dungeon delves gated by the inability to find a tank or healer for a dungeon that doesn't need it due to low server population.

asterdahl wrote: »

As far as why we chose to bring some of these dungeons back as leveling dungeons. With Module 9 we're introducing a big EXP bonus to leveling dungeons, to give new players and those leveling alts an alternate path of advancement, and really improve everyone's experience when leveling. To coincide with those changes, and the updates to the queue system, bringing back the 4 dungeons that are returning as leveling dungeons is a much smaller task that doesn't involve nearly as much rigor in terms of design, or testing, as generally the mechanics and tuning in these dungeons is much easier.

You missed the point entirely. People don't run the crappy leveling dungeons. People aren't leveling! The people who give you feedback and test your game and are passionate about it are MAX level. We don't NEED leveling content. There is only one leveling grind in the game and that is the overleveling and 60-70. The new campaign can help with 60-70 in a big way (I saw the exp rewards on preview). Why did you choose to institute FOUR pieces of content that no one will run and ONE that people actually will? No thanks. Take these back and bring out a second epic dungeon.

I have 8 max level toons. 8. Do you know what they need? Not leveling dungeons, but better loot, ways to make money, and more fun endgame things to run to gear up.​​

ghoulz66

WHAT!? No epic ones!? That is the biggest slap to the face. You have any idea how easy and boring the 3-man dungeons are? How does it take months to tweak and release easy fillers that already existed in the first place? You may as well not bother bringing them back.

aesculaepius

I appreciate the explanation, because historically we've been very short on receiving them. And I will take back the dungeons we're getting even if they're not epic, because at least for a little while, they will break up the monotony of running TOS and LOL endlessly and pleading with people to run the other dailies handed out by the Cleric so our small guild can crawl toward leveling. We lose more players because we can't progress fast enough, which causes us to progress more slowly... and I bet that the Cleric will not ask Lvl 70 people to clean out leveling dungeons. But - I cannot stand this "new" Castle Never. My only complaints with the old CN were two:
1. Why not just change the art for the final battle to be a pit instead of fighting the players constantly who tried to throw things over the side/door?
2. The fact that it looked *absolutely nothing* like Castle Never from the NWN games. Other than that, I loved running that dungeon. It took a long time, even with high-level characters, and we could get some great TeamSpeak/Ventrillo chats going while we ran it. It was a great way to teach newly minted 60's how to play their characters, and most of all, it was generally fun.

This new dungeon is nothing more than a bunch of Demonic HEs strung together with an epic epic demon at the end. I can do that now with eDemo and skip all the time it takes to get there.

And while I do agree that creating endgame content is difficult for a small team to test, you have a legion of devoted players who would test it (for free - give them a token reward for their efforts and they're happy) like STO used to do. I just am baffled at the tone-deafness that seems to exist with respect to player feedback, and the unwillingness to use said players to make the content both better and what they want. Of course, my day job is to listen to users and make software better based on their input, so while I'm admittedly biased in that regard, I can also say that it works.