Devs, you NEED to do an officiall statement of future prices of ZEN and vendor items like gmarks etc. Right now you saying that you removing all ways of making AD in the game. You need to be clear about your intentions before you lose all the players.
I never post on the forums, but this is a bait and switch tactic of not just changing the way we will earn AD, but castrating it and i feel betrayed. I've invested in my alts and bought extra slots and leadership gear for the sole purpose of funding the extreme amount of AD needed to gear up 1 character, let alone minimally gearing alts i enjoy playing from time to time.
I see mention above of how they want us to get rewarded for actually playing the game... yet see nothing added to reward that. A trivial amount of AD (that is actually a nerf if you only do 1 dungeon a day) that caps out in the 7 thousands after earning 500 each for any after 2? This is a pathetic amount of AD compared to what any character needs at 70, and stating anything else is a bold faced lie.
If you're happy not having to run leadership anymore, then you are happy with not having AD anymore. Of course you can buy AD, but why would we buy it if there is no one left in game to play with? We are already invested into the way we were told to play, even if merely forced into it because all other AD income has been removed. You already sold us something... take it away and put nothing in it's place like it appears you're trying to do here and this really will be the final straw, for a very large number of players.
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klangeddinMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 882Arc User
And the changes are not in yet either. So the huge AD stream is still there...
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
I am on board with this change completely. With my limited game time, the only way I have been able to afford anything is by having a "Leadership Army" and that turned into a catch-22. All my available time each day was spent working Leadership. With these changes, I will be able to stop my "leadership army" and instead spend that 30-90 minutes actually playing the game AND earning AD. This sounds great to me. Looking forward to actually being able to play the game and not work it. Huzzah!
are you blind? ofc for a casual player playin 30-90 minutes will give you 24k ad, how much were you winnin with the leadership army?
compare it ? dont get me wrong. what they put ingame its not REWARDING, those are just most ridiculous quest they've done. a REWARD should be done by completing a dungeon/skirmish , and not only for doing a 3 quests and cap it to 24k ad.
do u even post anything than not noding at your superior ?
how can this help a new guy get a rank 12 if the cost to make it , it's 3 milion AD , while he does 24k ad ? with that 24k AD he will gonna buy other things each day. its outragoues, this is just remove the source of AD , leave the prices as they are, make the richer poorer, make fun of the newcommers.
I did not compare anything. I simply stated that the change allows to me to play the game and earn AD instead of being sucked into working a leadership army. Of course I'll be making less AD, but that doesn't matter because I was making way more than I needed anyway (I could easily bring in 1-2 mil a week). It was a downward-spiral. The more I made, the more I wanted, the more characters I made. Now I'll be able to focus on select characters and still make AD instead of doing nothing but Leadership most of my game time. Relax, you have your opinion, I have mine. No need to attack me for such.
LOL yep better toe the company line! Well hey at least the exploiters will stay ahead!
I do find these remarks funny for anyone who has followed my posts knows I do not hold back when something PWE/Cryptic does that urks me. Yet when I do post something in favor, what happens? People forget how negative I can and have been in my comments in the past and just assume I am "in the company pocket" or however you want to word it. I just rant to them directly most of the time, they're always getting earfuls of negative comments from me.
Are we really trying to kill off the last vestiges of the player base? Many of us heavily invested in time and Zen to open up our leadership. It took Zen to open up the character slots. Leadership took forever to bring it to Level 25. There is not a lot of content to farm ATM. Content actually contracted. It is easy for a few people to get behind this idea, they are most likely not running a lot of leadership. PVP is a shell of even what it was lost mod. Good luck for whoever is last after this gets out.
All these changes to make sure we get our pittance for the day - terrible, this change is impossible to support. I also notice he didn't mention if those limits are per character or per account.
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kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
Are we going to be reimbursed for our character slots?
I doubt that. Most people already had farmed enough AD from leadership to have their character slots pay for themselves several times over.
My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official. Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
It was my whole idea of dumping millions into leadership so I'd have a stable income months later to actually afford all these vastly overpriced items......
1 character alone needs like 20+ GMoP to upgrade their gear. How the hell are you going to get 2m AD by begging people to join you in farming skirmishes and dungeons 12 hours a day for several days?
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hydropriestMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12Arc User
Luckily I only had one character I ever spent effort in Leadership on due to the annoyance factor, however some ideas to help fix with AD generation: The 24k rough AD cap needs to be raised, there needs to be more ways to earn AD in game, whether that's dungeons, skirmishes, pvp, or even Foundry quests which still waiting to even hear on when that intends to be fixed. Aside from that, Salvaging epic equipment currently is almost pointless as the amount of time spent in earning it does not justify its maximum of 10k salvage cost. A suggestion to fix that would be to make it so that Epic Equipment earned at 70 salvages currently for 3-4x its current amount, if not more. While leadership has its AD being removed, it could be nice to have much smaller amounts of AD added to -every- other profession. Alchemy, Blacksmithing, etc. The numbers for those don't have to be high, like Leadership currently is, and they can be a standard number across every profession, but it would make them more worth doing than they are currently. The cost of materials for epic gear is far beyond the salvage value of said gear, Dragon Eggs and Unified Elements, for example. Without those and Elemental Aggregates, all of which add up in cost rather quickly, other professions really have no point at all as better gear is obtained elsewhere. If bots are the actual problem, developing an anti-bot software would be useful for instant banning them the second they're detected.
BAD MOVE. PERIOD. I play one single character. I use two other characters alts solely for the purpose of generating Leadership AD. It simply doesn't seem possible for me to generate the same amount of AD with a single character...
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klangeddinMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 882Arc User
edited September 2015
Forget the GMoP.... how about the Coalescent Wards! .... man.....
I think the best way to get those is the Tarmalune Trade bars now.
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putzboy78Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,950Arc User
Now it doesn't say what will be made from foundry, but come on, how many runs/how much time will it take to get 24,000 AD now. One of the problems in the game now is that GMOPs have a fixed cost of 100k + you need wards to upgrade artifacts and enchantments. Where is the money going to come from now. Let's also not forget that the new AD sink (SHs) has about a years worth of constant AD drainage in it for even medium size guilds.
I do appreciate that they finally admit that the leadership gateway nerf did not fix botting. But lets be honest, the leadership bots did not cause the abundance of AD. It was the exploits that have only recently been fixed.
Playing Dungeons Old: If you picked up the daily quest, you got 3,000 AD for one dungeon. If you had your chest key, you got an additional 3,000 AD. New: 1. Automatically get 3,000 AD for each of the first two dungeons. 2. In addition, get 150 to 750 AD for each dungeon played (up to a maximum 7,200 AD per day from dungeons). Amount varies by time.
And now the three free keys from VIP cannot be used to access the AD in chest. Is this a nerf to VIP?
Playing PvP Old: If you picked up the daily quest, you got 4,000 AD for two matches. New: 1. Automatically get 2,000 AD for each of the first two matches. 2. In addition, get 200 to 300 AD per match played (up to a maximum 4,800 AD per day from PvP). Amount varies by time.
That's incorrect, you need four matches to get 4,000 AD. two if you win. I wonder if you have to win to get that AD. If yes then there will be some miserable lowbies out there. If no then we can welcome back the pvp bots we had in beta/launch. Campfire AFKrs rejoice.
VIP VIP is changing slightly. Previously, you received +15% bonus AD at VIP Rank 1 for Daily Quests. At VIP Rank 2, you received +15% bonus AD on Hourly Events. Now, at Rank 1, you will get 15% bonus on all runs of Dungeons, Skirmishes, and PvP. For PvP in particular, this is a new source of Astral Diamonds.
Would the VIP bonus count against the daily caps or on top of the daily caps? Because if it counts against the daily caps you've just nerfed VIP which currently doesn't have a daily cap to adhere to.
I'every game does the same move, every game dies like this.
They do when they want to get player investment low enough that they can disinvest from the game and get their licensing contracts canceled without penalty for breach of contract.... just saying.
This is a major buff to the people who got in on exploits before and have stored up zen/ad (yeah there is still tons out there) and the wallet warriors. Casual legit players just got hit by the biggest nerf bat ever.
This is just pure depressing and disgusting move. The rich will stay rich and the poor will be poorer. People will never be able to catch up at this rate.. unless you spend real world money. Oh wait, that's their underlying message here.
As if we didn't farm the same dungeons and skirmishes over and over already, we have to do it even more to have any source of measly income in this game. Terrible move Cryptic. They should just counter bots instead than hurting the real player base. No wonder they had the double AD weekends, nothing comes without a cost.
People still put real world money into this game? What for, to excel at running 3 pvp maps, 6 dungeons, or 2 skirmishes, or the opportunity to sit in a zone for 30 minutes trying to find an instance with enough geared people to kill 5 dragons for 10 minutes?
WIPE all existing astral diamonds fromt he serwer! no exceptions "THEN": Decrease rough diamonds from 24k a day to 5-10k Remove Gmops from WB and add into dungeon chest witch 10% chance Bring back old dungeons andd better drops into boss or chest Add 2% chance for drop Gmops from pvp wining match and max 300 ad per match!
Cya , 2 years building leadership to allow me to compete in the game and you wipe it out, wiped out my last armor set, last weapon set, nothing left to buy in game, played all the quests, ya, cya.
cheers Ello
ps. that's 25 of my lvl 25 leadership characters that have supported a small guild through the last couple years.
If you have problems with bot, why not limiting AD on Leadership per Account? Let's say 4 characters in an account only give AD from Leadership. Atleast we can still use what we have invested on leadership particularly assets and VIP.
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klangeddinMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 882Arc User
Playing Dungeons Old: If you picked up the daily quest, you got 3,000 AD for one dungeon. If you had your chest key, you got an additional 3,000 AD. New: 1. Automatically get 3,000 AD for each of the first two dungeons. 2. In addition, get 150 to 750 AD for each dungeon played (up to a maximum 7,200 AD per day from dungeons). Amount varies by time.
Playing Skirmishes Old: If you picked up the daily quest, you got 3,000 AD for three skirmishes. New: 1. Automatically get 1,500 AD for each of the first two skirmishes. 2. In addition, get 50 to 500 AD for each skirmish played (up to a maximum 7,200 AD per day from skirmishes). Amount varies by time.
Playing PvP Old: If you picked up the daily quest, you got 4,000 AD for two matches. New: 1. Automatically get 2,000 AD for each of the first two matches. 2. In addition, get 200 to 300 AD per match played (up to a maximum 4,800 AD per day from PvP). Amount varies by time.
Across the board, these two changes are expected to put significantly more AD into the hands of anyone playing this queued content.
Or, how about the fact that running the Dungeon during one event would net 7500 (r)AD even buying all but one key. Playing 3 skirmishes during the event would net 6000 (r)AD, you could play more later and get another 3-4k easy too. PVP is 4 matches at 70 IIRC, the PVP Victory quest adds some AD too, though if it stays it can add to the total. So.... I guess PVP is the only one that really gives more? I just don't see how the math works when 7200 is less than 7500, 6k in an hour is still better than 7200 a day from skirmishes. Especially when some may only net you 50 AD. That is hilarious and utterly annoying. All I see are less reasons to play more than 1 or 2 of each a day. Seriously? Why cap the daily amount? Why not do 3k for the 1st 2 Dungeon runs and 750 each time after, no cap. Same for Skirmishes, 1500 for the 1st 2 then 500 each after that. PVP same thing 2k per 1st 2 and IMO needs to be more than 300 each time after to endure the HAMSTER that is PVP. Maybe more like 500.
Anyway, you say you want players to have more AD, I call HAMSTER, it looks like you want us to pay more money. The markets will need a serious retool, 10k AD for a key? 10k per boon? I will get less per day unless I play the terrible system that is PVP. Hell even then maybe I will still get less. Tell you what, you want more AD in the hands of players, take it all and double it. That is far more rewarding and will help those who play not those who have 50 characters in leadership. During 2x AD I will gladly run 4 Dungeons in an hour because it is rewarding. I need AD and can't earn it any other way. I will run skirmishes to a point but even during 2x AD they don't feel terribly rewarding. PVP is better there. During 2x AD I made sure to earn nearly 100k every day, and guess what, it still is nothing compared to the multiple millions I need.
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hydropriestMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12Arc User
If you keep changing things after the fact - after people have exploited things to the limit, after people have put effort towards a goal, etc, you are going to keep eliminating your new player base. All that is going to be left is the people that exploited, and the people lucky enough to capitalize on these methods to make AD prior to them being removed.
and I just have got to ask. What really is the point of allowing 57 characters on an account, if they arent meant to be used as crafting farms? Nobody and I mean NOBODY in the world is playing 50+ characters....
I don't know. This seems like you guys are working in silos, and just making stuff up as you go without any supervision.
My guild leader plays 50 characters. Most of them are however kept at low level. I play around 24 myself, most of which are 60+
Bots will still keep making AD and exploiters will still find ways to get their AD. This only hurts the average players, but I guess that's fitting because I don't think this really about fixing the bot issue. It's just about trying to get more people to put money in the game, but it's going to back fire big time.
Another problem is that while time can mean AD, it also means Stronghold time. A huge time AND AD sink has just been introduced in the game, and the fairly decent AD my leadership was bringing in gave me the TIME to focus on helping my guild get everything built and upgraded. So much for that now.
Just call me Rod. Member of Grievance! CW: Rodrant Turnbul TR: Rodran DC: Rodrat GWF: ROARdrant TurnBRAWL Other GWF: Shieldrant HR: Bowdrant SW: Wardrant Turnlock (my main!) OP: Paladrant (on Preview!)
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mutjinninjaMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 93Arc User
Once again, you guys hurt the player rather than the bots. You know what the bots have? Time. They have scripts and time. The farmers do this for a job to sell AD to make real world money. This will barely scratch them...again. But this MURDERS your casual and busy gaming community.
As those above me have said, a lot of us DON'T have this time. Some of us are in school, some of us work two jobs, others simply don't like to game for long periods of time. So if we say, had 8 characters with an income of 7500 AD per day each. We could spend 30 minutes from our schedules (while we might be occupied the rest of the day) to collect this 60k. What do we get after this change? In those 30 minutes? Maybe 6k AD on ONE character. That is a 90% nerf to our AD gain.
This is perhaps the worst decision you guys have ever made. There will no longer be any way for those with lives to make a living in this game. We won't be able to afford a second dungeon key let alone RP, endgame rings, or anything else we would casually buy after some leadership saving.
Could you, impossibly, believe that people have the hours and hours required to run the samey content across many characters to generate the same level of income to be able to afford endgame items like artifacts and such? You. Are. Killing. Your. Game. If the disabled leadership on gateway backlash was harsh, removing most players' source of income will be catastrophic.
You're telling us that unless we pay buckets and buckets of money, we'll have to grind your content endlessly to afford anything? Have you looked at the Auction House lately? What can you get in there to help gear your character for 6k AD? RP stacks? Nope, those are 9-16k. That artifact you need to complete your set? Try again in 1.75 months of every day farming.
This change sends entirely the wrong message. Instead of saying "hey, we saw your AD troubles and we increased AD gain!" this says "Hey, if you don't want to grind for an ungodly amount of time, pay us!". A lot of us are short on time AND money. Leadership was how we stayed up to date and were able to afford gear that we didn't want to grind on the 0.1% chance it would drop.
Good luck keeping your game population. With changes like these, not even NW Xbox will be enough to keep your heads above the tide. GG
....... I'm actually pretty upset over this proposed change. I've been around since beta. I've always played for awhile till I maxed out and the content was old but, I always came back because (and I will repeat a thousand times over) this is my favorite game BECAUSE OF THE ABILITY TO MAKE CURRENCY FROM LEADERSHIP. Yes it will modify the economy tremendously but, this change will most likely cause me to never come back. Reasons being are my countless hours implemented in Leadership just to be able to compete with other players. Do I get a refund on my millions of AD and time invested? Probably not. I would consider that a slap in the face. I would also like to add if you are really worried about real life money coming into your company if you check my account I would estimate my contribution to be in the thousands. So this major change without the removing the 24k AD refining cap and removing everything being bind on pickup/bind on equip/bound to character/bound to account so that players who "actually pay you for your time" and "play the game content you implement" can grind your content and sell the rewards they pickup then id say this is the end of the line for Neverwinter or at least for me. Putting more time into my business will help me to buy more rl toys anyway.
P.S. Did you have the thought that bots have always adjusted there methods since the beginning everytime you nerf something. LOL it will still apply now...... just watch.
Seriously? And this is going to stop bots how? They'll still just be farming RP and dumping it on the AH. Bots don't need leadership AD to severely affect the economy.
i'm new to the game, and now i think i might leave. unless we can do like in other games and continally earn ad even if only a small portion per dungeon and RAD cap is significantly increased... this is my opinion.
You are new to the game and you have an alt army with leadership going already? I doubt this change affects you negatively at all. If anything, your AD gains should increase. Alt armies are something that take LOTS of time and effort to set up.
never said i had an army i said that the little ad i make from leadership on 3 toons is not enough to buy anything worth a damn.
Leadership As you may remember, we recently disabled the ability to use the Leadership profession on Gateway. This was due to an extreme number of bots generating far too much AD, and creating havoc with the AD economy. By disabling the profession on Gateway, we were able to reduce this artificially inflated number. Unfortunately, botters found a way around this fix. As we looked into the data, and as we analyzed what we could do to fix this exploit, we came to the conclusion that the way to stop the botters was to remove AD from the Leadership profession.
So what you are saying is basically 'hey, our solution that we said would totally solve the problem totally didn't work, so we are going to try another ridiculous solution that also won't work, but hey, trust us, we got it this time!'
Comments
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
I see mention above of how they want us to get rewarded for actually playing the game... yet see nothing added to reward that. A trivial amount of AD (that is actually a nerf if you only do 1 dungeon a day) that caps out in the 7 thousands after earning 500 each for any after 2? This is a pathetic amount of AD compared to what any character needs at 70, and stating anything else is a bold faced lie.
If you're happy not having to run leadership anymore, then you are happy with not having AD anymore. Of course you can buy AD, but why would we buy it if there is no one left in game to play with? We are already invested into the way we were told to play, even if merely forced into it because all other AD income has been removed. You already sold us something... take it away and put nothing in it's place like it appears you're trying to do here and this really will be the final straw, for a very large number of players.
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Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official.
Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
1 character alone needs like 20+ GMoP to upgrade their gear. How the hell are you going to get 2m AD by begging people to join you in farming skirmishes and dungeons 12 hours a day for several days?
Without those and Elemental Aggregates, all of which add up in cost rather quickly, other professions really have no point at all as better gear is obtained elsewhere. If bots are the actual problem, developing an anti-bot software would be useful for instant banning them the second they're detected.
Dungeons = 7,200
Skirmishes = 7,200
PVP = 4,800
Total = 19,200
19,200 < 24,000
Now it doesn't say what will be made from foundry, but come on, how many runs/how much time will it take to get 24,000 AD now. One of the problems in the game now is that GMOPs have a fixed cost of 100k + you need wards to upgrade artifacts and enchantments. Where is the money going to come from now. Let's also not forget that the new AD sink (SHs) has about a years worth of constant AD drainage in it for even medium size guilds.
I do appreciate that they finally admit that the leadership gateway nerf did not fix botting. But lets be honest, the leadership bots did not cause the abundance of AD. It was the exploits that have only recently been fixed. And now the three free keys from VIP cannot be used to access the AD in chest. Is this a nerf to VIP?
That's incorrect, you need four matches to get 4,000 AD. two if you win. I wonder if you have to win to get that AD. If yes then there will be some miserable lowbies out there. If no then we can welcome back the pvp bots we had in beta/launch. Campfire AFKrs rejoice. Would the VIP bonus count against the daily caps or on top of the daily caps? Because if it counts against the daily caps you've just nerfed VIP which currently doesn't have a daily cap to adhere to. Of course you are :* They do when they want to get player investment low enough that they can disinvest from the game and get their licensing contracts canceled without penalty for breach of contract.... just saying.
This is a major buff to the people who got in on exploits before and have stored up zen/ad (yeah there is still tons out there) and the wallet warriors. Casual legit players just got hit by the biggest nerf bat ever. People still put real world money into this game? What for, to excel at running 3 pvp maps, 6 dungeons, or 2 skirmishes, or the opportunity to sit in a zone for 30 minutes trying to find an instance with enough geared people to kill 5 dragons for 10 minutes?
WIPE all existing astral diamonds fromt he serwer! no exceptions "THEN":
Decrease rough diamonds from 24k a day to 5-10k
Remove Gmops from WB and add into dungeon chest witch 10% chance
Bring back old dungeons andd better drops into boss or chest
Add 2% chance for drop Gmops from pvp wining match and max 300 ad per match!
cheers
Ello
ps. that's 25 of my lvl 25 leadership characters that have supported a small guild through the last couple years.
Anyway, you say you want players to have more AD, I call HAMSTER, it looks like you want us to pay more money. The markets will need a serious retool, 10k AD for a key? 10k per boon? I will get less per day unless I play the terrible system that is PVP. Hell even then maybe I will still get less. Tell you what, you want more AD in the hands of players, take it all and double it. That is far more rewarding and will help those who play not those who have 50 characters in leadership. During 2x AD I will gladly run 4 Dungeons in an hour because it is rewarding. I need AD and can't earn it any other way. I will run skirmishes to a point but even during 2x AD they don't feel terribly rewarding. PVP is better there. During 2x AD I made sure to earn nearly 100k every day, and guess what, it still is nothing compared to the multiple millions I need.
Another problem is that while time can mean AD, it also means Stronghold time. A huge time AND AD sink has just been introduced in the game, and the fairly decent AD my leadership was bringing in gave me the TIME to focus on helping my guild get everything built and upgraded. So much for that now.
CW: Rodrant Turnbul
TR: Rodran
DC: Rodrat
GWF: ROARdrant TurnBRAWL
Other GWF: Shieldrant
HR: Bowdrant
SW: Wardrant Turnlock (my main!)
OP: Paladrant (on Preview!)
As those above me have said, a lot of us DON'T have this time. Some of us are in school, some of us work two jobs, others simply don't like to game for long periods of time. So if we say, had 8 characters with an income of 7500 AD per day each. We could spend 30 minutes from our schedules (while we might be occupied the rest of the day) to collect this 60k. What do we get after this change? In those 30 minutes? Maybe 6k AD on ONE character. That is a 90% nerf to our AD gain.
This is perhaps the worst decision you guys have ever made. There will no longer be any way for those with lives to make a living in this game. We won't be able to afford a second dungeon key let alone RP, endgame rings, or anything else we would casually buy after some leadership saving.
Could you, impossibly, believe that people have the hours and hours required to run the samey content across many characters to generate the same level of income to be able to afford endgame items like artifacts and such? You. Are. Killing. Your. Game. If the disabled leadership on gateway backlash was harsh, removing most players' source of income will be catastrophic.
You're telling us that unless we pay buckets and buckets of money, we'll have to grind your content endlessly to afford anything? Have you looked at the Auction House lately? What can you get in there to help gear your character for 6k AD? RP stacks? Nope, those are 9-16k. That artifact you need to complete your set? Try again in 1.75 months of every day farming.
This change sends entirely the wrong message. Instead of saying "hey, we saw your AD troubles and we increased AD gain!" this says "Hey, if you don't want to grind for an ungodly amount of time, pay us!". A lot of us are short on time AND money. Leadership was how we stayed up to date and were able to afford gear that we didn't want to grind on the 0.1% chance it would drop.
Good luck keeping your game population. With changes like these, not even NW Xbox will be enough to keep your heads above the tide. GG
L8(rare) Give Refugees a home (12 hours): 1 barrel, 1000 xp
L16 FIght off spellplagued (6 hours): 1 barrel, 1 silver
these I saw posted somewhere else
L23 Guard Young Noble on Trip (4 hours): 1 Enchanted Coffer, 1500 XP, 30 silver
L25 Battle Elemental Cultists (24 hours): 1 Enchanted Coffer, 500 XP, 30 silver
P.S. Did you have the thought that bots have always adjusted there methods since the beginning everytime you nerf something. LOL it will still apply now...... just watch.