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DPS Below where it should be for burst?

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  • Shapelle - LionheartShapelle - Lionheart Posts: 250 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Discussing diffrent things obviously, I said it was the best debuffer already.
    When i discuss DPS especially when said its about taking aggro, I dont see how your debuffs take any part in it? as your teammates will get those debuffs added to boss aswell so they will do extra damage too. try and compare the damage without applying the debuffs then you will see the dps.

    People were busy earlier in the thread saying that Precision was WAY lower than Burst for DPS and damage. I suggested aggro draw for Precision tree, but even after that people kept talking damage and dps, and saying how Precision was way less than Burst or Soul. I was strictly addressing the topic of DPS/Damage, not Aggro-draw, since no one used the term aggro.

    Quite simply, against a single target, Damage-wise, Precision significantly better than Soul, which is in turn slightly better than Burst (Soul used to be WAY better than Burst, but with HVS now beefed up to 190% and with a 4s CD, they're fairly close now). That's talking damage/dps only.

    For purposes of aggro draw, I've not done that analysis, but Precision in general gains around 20% of its Damage potential from buffs and debuffs, and in terms of DPS (not aggro), is around 20% ahead of Soul or Burst. This is, in most part, due to the power-ups that the Precision tree also grants the various earth based powers.

    For purposes of aggro draw, well, that then gets down to exactly what the formula that the game uses to calculate who gets aggro. As I mentioned, it does appear that it tends to favour those who do high spike damage, which is where Precision comes in, as it spikes significantly higher than the other two trees.

    Precision also has Dazing Shot, which for half the time, boosts Earth Damage against a target by 20%, and that's something which other classes (except other MM's or Protectors) can't draw benefit from. Precision's Double Shot is also a personal buff that spikes highly as well with Precision talents.

    It's been my direct experience, frequently switching between either Burst or Precision (and I have Fire/Earth off-hands depending on which tree I'm in) that Precision, even after granting everyone else a damage boost too, is better able to hold aggro than Burst.

    For you Guns, from what I've read of your character in the forums, you are incredibly geared with extremely high masteries, and so not likely to get out-aggroed by many people at all. Would you even notice the difference between the two trees? I don't know. For a strong but still far from maxed PvE MM like mine, who week by week depending on gear levels finishes anywhere between 2nd and 4th in Hell Road rankings for MMs on Lionheart and so is out-aggroed by a good 100-150 other characters on the server (excluding those using taunts), aggro draw does appear to favour Precision over Burst.
  • Shapelle - LionheartShapelle - Lionheart Posts: 250 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    This makes me want to go burst as main spec haha xD

    Lil question, IF i get 5 swift penetration runes as prec, that helps to equal the DPS between burst and prec? Or burst still better?

    Burst gets Shrapnel and Efficient Penetration, which boosts the base damage by up to 40%, and the bonus damage by up to 20%, respectively. These are high up enough in the Burst tree that a Precision tree can't really access them, without becoming a full hybrid build. They can be gotten with Runes. Efficient Penetration is a fairly common rune. Shrapnel is somewhat rare, so it's not something you're going to max with Runes within a month unless you're lucky.

    My Precision MM has 4 Swift Pen runes. I also have a Shrapnel rune, but that's in my Nyos tree that I use for Burst (I use Dyos for Precision).

    A precision MM with 5 x Swift Pen, 4 x Shrapnel, 3 x Stray Bullet, a Master Sniper, a Contact and some Motivate runes would be very strong (I wouldn't worry too much about Efficient Penetration runes), but it will be difficult to find all those runes and sustain a high rune power as well. It would be something you'd need to work towards over a long period of time. There's 17 possible Rune Slots now, so you fit in 3 x Motivate Runes in that above Rune Spec. If you could do all that, and get Wisdom up around 80 or so, and Nature at 40+ and a Fervor of 30 (for 0.85s Pen Shot cast), that'd be one scary **** Precision build.

    Or as a variation, do that precision tree on Nyos, and favour Fervor over Nature, and aim to activate Nyos Fuel, and try to get something like a +10% crit-chance boost, on top of Double Shot boosts, for spikes of +18% CC with +10% CC sustained.
  • ILikeBigGu - IllyfueILikeBigGu - Illyfue Posts: 1,066 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    People were busy earlier in the thread saying that Precision was WAY lower than Burst for DPS and damage. I suggested aggro draw for Precision tree, but even after that people kept talking damage and dps, and saying how Precision was way less than Burst or Soul. I was strictly addressing the topic of DPS/Damage, not Aggro-draw, since no one used the term aggro.

    Quite simply, against a single target, Damage-wise, Precision significantly better than Soul, which is in turn slightly better than Burst (Soul used to be WAY better than Burst, but with HVS now beefed up to 190% and with a 4s CD, they're fairly close now). That's talking damage/dps only.

    For purposes of aggro draw, I've not done that analysis, but Precision in general gains around 20% of its Damage potential from buffs and debuffs, and in terms of DPS (not aggro), is around 20% ahead of Soul or Burst. This is, in most part, due to the power-ups that the Precision tree also grants the various earth based powers.

    For purposes of aggro draw, well, that then gets down to exactly what the formula that the game uses to calculate who gets aggro. As I mentioned, it does appear that it tends to favour those who do high spike damage, which is where Precision comes in, as it spikes significantly higher than the other two trees.

    Precision also has Dazing Shot, which for half the time, boosts Earth Damage against a target by 20%, and that's something which other classes (except other MM's or Protectors) can't draw benefit from. Precision's Double Shot is also a personal buff that spikes highly as well with Precision talents.

    It's been my direct experience, frequently switching between either Burst or Precision (and I have Fire/Earth off-hands depending on which tree I'm in) that Precision, even after granting everyone else a damage boost too, is better able to hold aggro than Burst.

    For you Guns, from what I've read of your character in the forums, you are incredibly geared with extremely high masteries, and so not likely to get out-aggroed by many people at all. Would you even notice the difference between the two trees? I don't know. For a strong but still far from maxed PvE MM like mine, who week by week depending on gear levels finishes anywhere between 2nd and 4th in Hell Road rankings for MMs on Lionheart and so is out-aggroed by a good 100-150 other characters on the server (excluding those using taunts), aggro draw does appear to favour Precision over Burst.

    Pve mastery makes a big diffrence, so yes i notice the diffrence. earlier wargod vs arena gear, now its peoples champ set vs my elemental. OP have higher damage at hvs than i do.
    The diffrence is that endgame critical hits makes a huge diffrence, and as burst you got a POTENTIAL +14 crit chance add to all your skills which is huge dps add, doubtful even the mark doesn't make up for it. I am not at +14 as i focus at nature.

    However you could make a full maxed sharpnel +swift pene as precision aswell build points at fervor @nyos. Then for me precision outshine
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  • Shapelle - LionheartShapelle - Lionheart Posts: 250 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Yeah, I knew you going to bring Nyos Fuel into it. Precision also boosts crit chance by debuffing the enemy's crit dodge by around a sustained 10%, so long as a crit is landed within 10s. Mind you, that benefits the rest of the party as well. Precision also debuffs crit def as well, which again is part of why it spikes so high.

    Yeah, refer to my post above yours where I mention a maxed pen shot build under Nyos. With fuel and crit dodge debuffs, that's like +20% crit chance there, not to mention quid a few precision skills have specific crit chance boosts. Throw the occasional double shot +8% bonus on top of all of that and you're spiking at around +35% crit chance over your buffed base. This is why such a build would be so scary. You could theoretically approach 100% crit chances with level 5 gold sparks, dirty boxing, and a few good id's
  • ILikeBigGu - IllyfueILikeBigGu - Illyfue Posts: 1,066 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Yeah, I knew you going to bring Nyos Fuel into it. Precision also boosts crit chance by debuffing the enemy's crit dodge by around a sustained 10%, so long as a crit is landed within 10s. Mind you, that benefits the rest of the party as well. Precision also debuffs crit def as well, which again is part of why it spikes so high.

    Yeah, refer to my post above yours where I mention a maxed pen shot build under Nyos. With fuel and crit dodge debuffs, that's like +20% crit chance there, not to mention quid a few precision skills have specific crit chance boosts. Throw the occasional double shot +8% bonus on top of all of that and you're spiking at around +35% crit chance over your buffed base. This is why such a build would be so scary. You could theoretically approach 100% crit chances with level 5 gold sparks, dirty boxing, and a few good id's

    Yeah I admit didn't think about the debuffs when doing the post above. Aswell get 4 soul guidance from runes for the +4 chance :o

    A build like that would be really cool to see tbh, lol.
    Might be fun to try out, If i find the right runes some time i'll go for it :D
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  • Shapelle - LionheartShapelle - Lionheart Posts: 250 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Yeah I admit didn't think about the debuffs when doing the post above. Aswell get 4 soul guidance from runes for the +4 chance :o

    A build like that would be really cool to see tbh, lol.
    Might be fun to try out, If i find the right runes some time i'll go for it :D

    Oh yeah, I forgot that Soul Guidance could be boost by runes. That's even crazier. For sure, drop the Motivate Runes for Soul Guidance, if you've got them.
  • ToLLL - ShyliaToLLL - Shylia Posts: 200 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    This is exactly the build I got atm, and for sure, precision got way more damage than burst or soul, at least for PvE. (I'm able to reach ~6700 in HR)

    But, it's very hard to compete with Fire Mage or Dark Vamp at equal gear/mastery in raid, however don't forget precision is also a "support" spec, you give others a LOT of damages.
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  • Hop_Madnes - Storm LegionHop_Madnes - Storm Legion Posts: 10 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I have taken and held agro easily from wind/fire mages with BETTER stats than me. Before the HVS beef full burst BLEW for damage, now it blows prec and soul out of the water. I can hold agro from blood wars/fire mages/edge sins/dark vamps with equal and in some cases slightly better stats than mine by just shift + z-ing.
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  • DivineSpirits - Storm LegionDivineSpirits - Storm Legion Posts: 122 Arc User
    edited October 2014
    Sorry I meant HVS was supposed to be first and always spammed as much as its CD allows.. tho while botting I noticed pen-shot goes off twice as much part of the time.

    Unfortunately I'll never be a big pvp'r like iLikeBigGuns because i only have use of one arm (Desert Storm) and pvp as it is happens way too fast to do everything with just a mouse. So i am pve only.

    Hence i will forever be a Burst.

    I know its off topic, but thank you for your service.
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