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Isock - EyrdaIsock - Eyrda Posts: 589 Arc User
edited May 2012 in Marksman Discussion
http://fw.perfectworld.com/talentcalc?cls=marksman&r=dwf&b=t1a15t1b25t1c12t1c23t1d24t1d44t1e22t3a13t3a23t3b23t3b45t3c23t3d11t3d23t3e12t3e32t3f24

sorry for the long link :D
i change from soul to that, cuz whit the new expansion i feel like i have to farm a little more for equip/runes/gems

i just like that i have aoe and single target attacks too, and whit the runes i have motivate xD
the only thing i dont like is that in duel and arena i feel a little deficient :c
Post edited by Isock - Eyrda on
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Comments

  • Crum - EyrdaCrum - Eyrda Posts: 506 Arc User
    edited April 2012
    First off, you're mixing earth and fire. If you wanna hybrid, hybrid burst with soul since you'll have more bullets that way and get skills that make use of your fire mastery (assuming that's your main mastery since you said you used to be soul)

    If you wanna be a great party support char go full precision. What makes precision good is encourage and pain mark and you don't have either.

    Also whatsup with your burst talents? I can see putting points in heat bullet as filler but, why is your lava burst 3/5 and rof 3/4? That's just stupid. At least max both of those out and take points out of swift penetration since your rof is on a 2 sec cooldown.
  • Isock - EyrdaIsock - Eyrda Posts: 589 Arc User
    edited April 2012
    cuz im lvl 74 at the moment,
    i tryed to hybrid soul/burst but i feel more like having an additional aoe attack instead of being able to stay in "aoe-mode" and the reload was long, and always run off of bullet cuz they change soul discharge
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • dr4koedr4koe Posts: 38 Arc User
    edited April 2012
    I suggest staying your current build until lev 75, cause otherwise you'd have to use another talent calc to upgrade your skills at 75.

    I think you would do a lot more dgm going back to soul, for 2 reasons.

    SD > AS because it's also fire, which you should have more off, and it gets a higher base % of your atk. It is also a 1 sec atk, which means when you use AS, then your not using your RoF as effectively.

    You will also get more soul bullets... Which means you can probably have crack shot time on about half the time... When you run out, turn it off - and SD will slowly build it back up. That, and lower art of reloading cd.

    Based off your play style (You like a 2 sec ROF, with some single targ dps):

    http://fw.perfectworld.com/talentcalc?cls=marksman&r=dwf&b=t2a25t2a35t2b42t2c24t2c34t2e23t2e42t2f22t3a12t3a25t3b24t3b45t3c12t3c24t3d23t3f24

    That's what I'd recommend. Crum's right about your points in redistributing your burst poitns as well. No need for speed of fire at all. Also, as you level up - your points into soul tree further increase your dgm. If you're acc is low, take points from soul rift and put it into acc.
  • RauI - LionheartRauI - Lionheart Posts: 37 Arc User
    edited April 2012
    Someone do a good hybrid and Ill place it on sticky so its not lost on the depths of Forum.
  • ixthuaixthua Posts: 128 Arc User
    edited April 2012
    I am using this http://www.aesica.net/fw/?race=0&profession=0&level=80&talent=555530400004010330202302|05|05004 triple hybrid build to maximize support ability. Obviously mfb is the key skill for prec mm, as it gives extra 8% to reduce enemy crit dodge by 4%, which makes prec mm fire element. I went nyos tree and using all 3 types of energy to get: yellow - extra res reduction, blue - crit damage, red - chance to reduce crit dodge.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Crum - EyrdaCrum - Eyrda Posts: 506 Arc User
    edited April 2012
    ixthua wrote: »
    I am using this http://www.aesica.net/fw/?race=0&profession=0&level=80&talent=555530400004010330202302|05|05004 triple hybrid build to maximize support ability. Obviously mfb is the key skill for prec mm, as it gives extra 8% to reduce enemy crit dodge by 4%, which makes prec mm fire element. I went nyos tree and using all 3 types of energy to get: yellow - extra res reduction, blue - crit damage, red - chance to reduce crit dodge.

    I like your build and I let you finish but this is the best triple hybrid build of all time. OF ALL TIME!
  • ixthuaixthua Posts: 128 Arc User
    edited April 2012
    I like your build and I let you finish but this is the best triple hybrid build of all time. OF ALL TIME!

    You are so kind. Someone will trust your large mm class experience, use your build and say thanks after.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • westmonk81westmonk81 Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited April 2012
    ixthua wrote: »
    I am using this http://www.aesica.net/fw/?race=0&profession=0&level=80&talent=555530400004010330202302|05|05004 triple hybrid build to maximize support ability. Obviously mfb is the key skill for prec mm, as it gives extra 8% to reduce enemy crit dodge by 4%, which makes prec mm fire element. I went nyos tree and using all 3 types of energy to get: yellow - extra res reduction, blue - crit damage, red - chance to reduce crit dodge.

    Fissure add -4% dodge to mfb too? it's only added to my earth atk skill's description
  • dr4koedr4koe Posts: 38 Arc User
    edited April 2012
    I'm pretty sure Crum's joking with that link. Actually, I can't tell if ixthua's joking with his post as well or not. Let me know if I'm mistaken, and I'll try to explain why I'd think that.

    As far as I remember, the -4% dodge only applies to earth skills.
    Someone do a good hybrid and Ill place it on sticky so its not lost on the depths of Forum.

    Some general hybrid builds. Not perfected, but if you read everything, the theory behind the build should be evident.


    Route 1: Support

    1) You want to have support power. You go prec. You need at least 47 points.
    2) You want a 6 second AOE. Ok, you need at least 14 into burst.
    3) You want more bullets --> a longer soul catching. Need 5 points in soul.

    There's your prec/burst hybrid. 47/14. Really needs level 80. BAD for pvp, bad at single target dps, and mediocre at aoe. Literally, all you get is a 6 second aoe, atk buff, and hunter mark debuff. If you don't want the aoe, then you can get the longer soul catching. Not very hard to put 5 skills into 1 tree. But then you can't have an aoe.

    http://fw.perfectworld.com/talentcalc?cls=marksman&r=dwf&b=t1a15t1a32t1b25t1b45t1c13t1c24t1d24t1e22t1f12t1f41t1g23t1h22t1h42t1i12t1i33t1j22t3a25t3b45t3c24

    Route 2: AOE Focus

    1) You don't care about support power.
    2) You want powerful aoe --> Need minimum 39 into Burst.
    3) You want more bullets --> Too bad for you (aka, you shouldn't be soul
    4) You also want good Single Targ DPS

    Now I said 39 points, because right now I'm finding Burning Rage fking bugged as hell. It only gives bonus for 1 atk, not 3. So I find it almost useless to have more than 1 point in it. Lasting for 1 atk also means Soul Catch is pretty useless too (you get soul bullets, but not for the 24, or even 10 secs). If you REALLY want single target dps as well, get 19 into prec for the aimed shot. You shouldn't need to really use it at all (if rof/pen are on CD, you can cycle through MFB, fire at will, exo, etc.) on aoe. But when you get to a boss or something, cycle MFB, FaW, exo, Aimed. Pen when you are on cd to lower resistances or ROF for the burn. This build (min 39 burst, 19 prec) needs mastery in 2 elements though.\


    Route 3: 2 second ROF

    1) You want a 2 sec ROF, but don't need 'maxed' aoe
    2) You want single target dps

    So For this you need 29 in burst. Now you could the other points into prec or soul... Prec for aimed, soul for discharge. Honestly - I'd say it depends on your mastery and atk. High atk --> soul. Low mastery (aka earth and fire are very similar and low level) - aimed. Want bullets - soul.

    Triple hybrid --> Unless soul extraction is a rune skill (which I don't believe it is), there's no point to every triple with soul. Reason being is that you pretty much need to get soul extraction or there's no point going anything into soul. If you want to 'triple' cause of absorption - then somethings wrong with your build if you are focusing on soul bullets... 1

    Exception - a super Weakening Cloud (soul - increase acc debuff, prec/burst for lower cd). I'd say still bad idea.(And now runes can give you it anyways I believe).
  • ixthuaixthua Posts: 128 Arc User
    edited April 2012
    dr4koe wrote: »
    I can't tell if ixthua's joking with his post as well or not. Let me know if I'm mistaken, and I'll try to explain why I'd think that.
    MFB resets cd of Fire at will with 30% rate, if its soul catching time - also increases its crit rate by 8%. With few goldsparks and buffs thats enough to keep boss debuffed.
    So it comes to aimed shot (100% base, 30% bonus) vs MFB (120% base + 20% bonus as soul catching is active) + soul snipe (100% base, 20% bonus, 1s cast time), which is much better than all those 2s cast earth skills in pure prec build. If there is a rune for Soul Ash - its 130% base dmg for Soul Snipe. Few points into burst for a nice +9% fire damage. If runes allow - also you can get soul discharge with 145% base.
    To me prec tree looks as a fire. And dont underestimate base dmg vs cast time in skills as sometimes you get 7-15k buffed attack.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • dr4koedr4koe Posts: 38 Arc User
    edited April 2012
    MFB resets cd of Fire at will with 30% rate, if its soul catching time - also increases its crit rate by 8%. With few goldsparks and buffs thats enough to keep boss debuffed.
    So it comes to aimed shot (100% base, 30% bonus) vs MFB (120% base + 20% bonus as soul catching is active) + soul snipe (100% base, 20% bonus, 1s cast time), which is much better than all those 2s cast earth skills in pure prec build. If there is a rune for Soul Ash - its 130% base dmg for Soul Snipe. Few points into burst for a nice +9% fire damage. If runes allow - also you can get soul discharge with 145% base.
    To me prec tree looks as a fire. And dont underestimate base dmg vs cast time in skills as sometimes you get 7-15k buffed attack.

    Thank-you for not taking my comment personally, and instead explained your talents.

    The reason I thought you weren't serious was because you maximized Target Practice and Burst Fire. 7 talents that give almost nothing in return. What's the point of the reset if you don't have powerful earth skills to use? Exo bullet is unupgraded in your format. Extreme Sniping --> Don't think it's dps viable until you get some massive prec runes to lower its cd (but let's try to steer clear of runes for now).

    With your present talent tree - you shouldn't be able to use double shot (not enough bullets) continuously (unless I'm not understanding your full cycle). You're using Pen to lower earth/fire resist fine. But in getting absorption's 20% base atk - you just lost 5 atks at 25% more atk, not to mention the added earth mastery and crit chance from lethal control. Yes, you get more bullets, but honestly - 5 shots at 8% increased crit chance is huge. Especially cause it helps you stack the -crit dodge.

    Now instead of getting Lava Burst, you could get Strengthen Up. -50 resist ~~ 5% dgm overall. Strengthen up would increase your atk by 6% + base. This would be lower overall, but not enough to cry over + it gives you another chance to use a skill like Exo. or even soul snipe...

    If you want to rely on MFB and FaW, I'd reocommend http://www.aesica.net/fw/?race=0&profession=0&level=80&talent=55553040000401033020233223|05|.

    I'd say -resist from pene ~ increase in damage from strengthen up. (Ok, so maybe you're in a party with a prot. Or a fire mage. I wouldn't rely on this - resist to really improve their dps that much though)
    Less flame mastery is MORE than made up for by lethal control. (40 flame mastery, 4% damage, versus 1 MFB crit...)
    You also get a much more powerful exo.
    This build should easily do more dps than your current one.


    In terms of maximizing though... I'd suggest getting aimed shot with the points from target practice and burst fire. You'll notice the impact when you use double shot... A crit with + 4000 bonus dgm > FaW like 2000.

    If you don't pvp, and you want to be support, http://www.aesica.net/fw/?race=0&profession=0&level=80&talent=42553444000200033020333223|04| maximizes your single target dps, when you factor in certain 'common' runes. Solid shot super cheap... You can even get a weakpoint tag to finish it up. (Skills from runes, not the overall rune tree)

    One you start using lethal control, you'll never wanna give it up.
  • ixthuaixthua Posts: 128 Arc User
    edited April 2012
    I got the idea of your build and it looks much more balanced for a little ability of pvp and has good spike damage.
    In my build i took into consideration rune skills. If you dont have dyos human fire mage in team - you definitely loose a lot of dps, as i cant tell a better dd class, so -50 fire res can be +8k dps for fire mage. Fervor energy give a chance for +critical buff for 30s (as the description says) and penetrating shot can trigger it. -100 def debuff can result in like +2000 dps for the whole party (considering criticals, as critical = (dmg - def) * crit dmg).
    And i dont consider prec mm as a dd class, as 50% base dmg per second in pec tree < 160+% base dmg per second other class have.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Isock - EyrdaIsock - Eyrda Posts: 589 Arc User
    edited April 2012
    only thing i got is that im a moron for put talents in speed of fire and that soul discharge is better bcuz masteries, but idk i kind of like pushing mobs back lol
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Crum - EyrdaCrum - Eyrda Posts: 506 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    Roll a lightning mage then?
  • Isock - EyrdaIsock - Eyrda Posts: 589 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    no o.o
    i want to return to soul someday to silence/disarm people xD
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ixthuaixthua Posts: 128 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    So, according to rune talents for soul mm (http://fw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=348711 and i believe that thread, as it is correct for fire mage), Soul Ash is a rune talent, means Soul Snipe will get 140% base damage and +6% crit chance, for all skills +20% bonus dmg as you always have soul bullets - way better than all those 2s cast and 100% base earth skills.
    Now, its a choice between Soul Discharge (100% base, 1s cast) vs fire mastery + fire res debuff. I prefer debuff, so my build looks pretty good to use.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Isock - EyrdaIsock - Eyrda Posts: 589 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    ok, so after seeing that wasnt the best idea to use speed of fire, i got myself another compass(yey 7 talent compass already used xD)
    http://fw.perfectworld.com/talentcalc?cls=marksman&r=dwf&b=t1a15t1a32t1b23t1c11t1c23t1c32t1d24t1e22t1e34t3a12t3a24t3b24t3b45t3c12t3c23t3d23t3e32t3f24
    so now fire at will reduce defense, and have 2 bleed like effect xD
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Zeryz - LionheartZeryz - Lionheart Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    Whoops
  • dr4koedr4koe Posts: 38 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    ok, so after seeing that wasnt the best idea to use speed of fire, i got myself another compass(yey 7 talent compass already used xD)
    http://fw.perfectworld.com/talentcal...3d23t3e32t3f24
    so now fire at will reduce defense, and have 2 bleed like effect xD

    What level are you now? I already gave you a build that maximizes dps, unless you get MASSIVE prec rune tree chroma.

    And from what your 'current' talents are, you completely ignored everything I said. If you want to push back mobs, just use soul snipe?...

    If you want to use fire at will to lower defence, get the runes. They are super cheap, and you don't need to waste 26 talents for that. Also - learn how mastery works. You're earth skills do roughly 15-20% total less damage than your fire (You have 50 fire from burst tree, should easily be able to get a 120%+ offhand fire). If your skill rotation could make use of a 2 second earth skill, just use exo. It has higher bonus damage as well. The bleed from aimed shot does next to no damage.

    Shorter CD MFB versus an extra 1 sec skill. Depending on your atk, the 145% base from soul discharge does more damage. Don't have high atk? It's still superior to get only 10 points in prec, and put the rest into soul.
    i want to return to soul someday to silence/disarm people xD

    It works roughly 60% of the time, hardly enough for pvp. Also - disarm ONLY affects mms and warriors. It was hugely disapointing for me.
    I got the idea of your build and it looks much more balanced for a little ability of pvp and has good spike damage.
    In my build i took into consideration rune skills. If you dont have dyos human fire mage in team - you definitely loose a lot of dps, as i cant tell a better dd class, so -50 fire res can be +8k dps for fire mage. Fervor energy give a chance for +critical buff for 30s (as the description says) and penetrating shot can trigger it. -100 def debuff can result in like +2000 dps for the whole party (considering criticals, as critical = (dmg - def) * crit dmg).

    If you're going to factor in runes, factor in runes: http://www.aesica.net/fw/?race=0&profession=0&level=80&talent=4255343400020003302033222|04|05

    All your fire at will skills can be upgraded with cheap runes.

    I know you're wanting to get soul ash for soul snipe (which should get 4% crit, not 6% like you mentioned). Fine, skip getting aimed shot. But I have no idea how you can say the extra damage from being able to use double shot is worth 5% more fire damage. Even IF you get a fire off hand and don't want to use your earth skills - the added bullets and crit chance more than make up for that 5%.
    And i dont consider prec mm as a dd class, as 50% base dmg per second in pec tree < 160+% base dmg per second other class have.

    The biggest buff they get is 145%, as an fyi. Soul stripping isn't a rune from the post you linked.

    What you consider a dd class doesn't mean a class is dd or not. First of all - it depends on your equips. I did MORE damage as a prec mm then when I switched back to soul. This is with 9/12 equips, decent gem power. The biggest reason? Cause I focused my equips on crit damage. So I have no idea why you're saying prec isn't dd. This isn't factoring in team dps either.

    50% base dgm per sec. I don't know why you're so focused on this one statistic. Just compare 2 actual skills... Let's say soul discharge versus aimed.

    Some standard assumptions:
    2600 atk for soul, 3000 for prec, 300% crit damage.

    Soul Discharge --> 145% base, 2000 bonus.
    Aimed Shot --> 100% base, 5000 bonus, 7% more chance to crit.

    Soul: 5770 + 155 for the extra crit damage.

    Aimed: 8000. Factoring in extra crit damage: 1680
    Aimed: 9680. Adding in pain mark and the 50 mastery:10977, or 5488 damage. If the rest of huntermark debuffs are factored in, the damage is almost the same. With bleed = more.

    Now in terms of dps overall all skills (cycle through), it's hard to calculate. At around 2500-3000 atk, and 325%+ crit dgm, prec is very close to soul mm single target dps. So obviously with the party buffs prec is better dps in any party, overall.

    Now IF you're attack starts to get to 3500-4000+, then yes, soul mm begins to do a lot more damage. Or if you have 0 added crit damage, soul will do more.

    I'm not gonna fight more about this though, if you're set in your views, I'm not going to spend more time changing them. Level 80 mm who's been hybrid and full tree builds for all mm, but w/e.
    http://fw.perfectworld.com/talentcal...1k31t2a35t3a15

    IF I went all three hybrid this is how it'd be

    Heat bullet adds barely any damage and is never worth maxing even as a full burst.

    Hopefully you have double shot unlocked. If so, get lethal control before absorption.
  • Isock - EyrdaIsock - Eyrda Posts: 589 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    yea, i saw the builds u posted, and liked the 2 second RoF, but i dont have high masterys atm, so i prefer Aimed Shot and also bcuz it can push mobs xD, and i want to use this build to farm instances, and while soul exo bullet disarm only affect mm/war, it also silences the other classes, so its a good thing to have against bards/priest
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Zeryz - LionheartZeryz - Lionheart Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    dr4koe wrote: »
    Heat bullet adds barely any damage and is never worth maxing even as a full burst.

    Hopefully you have double shot unlocked. If so, get lethal control before absorption.

    I use Soul snipe for the stun so I figured it'd be beneficial

    Also the talent calculator removed lethal control but it was on there, I'm level 76.
    I also am not aimed toward pvp as much as just boss farming.
  • Zeryz - LionheartZeryz - Lionheart Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    dr4koe wrote: »
    Some standard assumptions:
    2600 atk for soul, 3000 for prec, 300% crit damage.

    Soul Discharge --> 145% base, 2000 bonus.
    Aimed Shot --> 100% base, 5000 bonus, 7% more chance to crit.

    Soul: 5770 + 155 for the extra crit damage.

    Aimed: 8000. Factoring in extra crit damage: 1680
    Aimed: 9680. Adding in pain mark and the 50 mastery:10977, or 5488 damage. If the rest of huntermark debuffs are factored in, the damage is almost the same. With bleed = more.
    The added crit chance on Aimed shot can be compared equal to soul discharge because (if I remember right) soul discharge hits multiple times.
    Though I've never been soul and the way you put this makes sense
  • dr4koedr4koe Posts: 38 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    yea, i saw the builds u posted, and liked the 2 second RoF, but i dont have high masterys atm, so i prefer Aimed Shot and also bcuz it can push mobs xD, and i want to use this build to farm instances, and while soul exo bullet disarm only affect mm/war, it also silences the other classes, so its a good thing to have against bards/priest

    Pushing back mobs - while it doesn't increase your dps, if you like that 'effect' then that's good enough for me, the game's about having fun.

    But realize this effect decreases your ability to farm instances.

    In terms of pvp - it may work on your server. In mine - a 2 second cast time is very long considering I'm 99% focused first, which probably means it's gonna get interrupted unless I get a stun out or am with some heavy cc (like a prot/ice mage).
    Also the talent calculator removed lethal control but it was on there, I'm level 76.
    I also am not aimed toward pvp as much as just boss farming.

    Try to post your build again - it's hard to look at a 'partial' build lol...
    The added crit chance on Aimed shot can be compared equal to soul discharge because (if I remember right) soul discharge hits multiple times.

    Multiple hits is burst of rage, not soul discharge. My crit chance was based on the 'extra' aimed shot gets. Equal base. Prec gets contact +2, aimed gets +8. Soul gets + 3. So prec nets +7 more.
  • Isock - EyrdaIsock - Eyrda Posts: 589 Arc User
    edited May 2012
    dr4koe wrote: »

    In terms of pvp - it may work on your server. In mine - a 2 second cast time is very long considering I'm 99% focused first, which probably means it's gonna get interrupted unless I get a stun out or am with some heavy cc (like a prot/ice mage).

    yea i know, but i made it to not be in pvp, now i only go to rift were i stay back and aoe/mark someone xD
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Zeryz - LionheartZeryz - Lionheart Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited May 2012
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