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DPS Below where it should be for burst?

Loli - Storm LegionLoli - Storm Legion Posts: 34 Arc User
edited October 2014 in Marksman Discussion
In terms of DPS I always felt burst should be on par with fire mages. Unfortunately our DPS seems to be far from it.

My recent expample

Mage L90 vs MM L90
Mage had 1054 fire mastery vs MM 1245 fire mastery, 1075 earth mastery
Mage attack was 8999 vs MM attack 8764
Mage CD 458% vs MM 428%
Mage PVE Intensity 255 vs MM 308
Mage CC 52% vs MM CC 52%

After a few skill rounds the mage gains aggro and I never get it back.


I've even had Mages with lesser stats all around take aggro.

So what gives?

Are there any plans on "beefing up" MM's? or is this all we have to look forward to?

(A self only displayed DPS meter would be nice for tuning)
Post edited by Loli - Storm Legion on
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Comments

  • Drachus - EyrdaDrachus - Eyrda Posts: 1,532 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    First off ...
    Don't focus just on whether or not someone can outdps you and take aggro on a boss. Burst MM's have their own place and usefulness. Don't let the maintenance of aggro define your character's worth, which is what it seems you are doing, unfortunately. If you whole desire is to hold aggro, you need to pick a class that has higher spike damage. :/

    Now to your comparison... the mage had over 2000 attack more than you and 30% more crit damage. That's very significant. You had more mastery, but in my experience base attack improves overall dps even more than mastery. Especially true if you are fighting vs a boss that actually has some resistances.

    But at the end of the day, even if you had similar stats, some classes will just outdps you. Some classes are built more for dps than others per their talents. You're focusing on a fire mage, but comparing yourself to a fire mage is little different than comparing yourself to a wind bard - both are aoe, except fire shares your mastery type. Otherwise... a burst mm and a fire mage have very very different talents. This does not mean that the classes with the higher dps talents are "better" however, or that those talent trees with lesser dps need to be "beefed up"... Like I said, I think you're just looking at the classes way too much from a pure aggro/dps perspective.
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  • Loli - Storm LegionLoli - Storm Legion Posts: 34 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    oh its not 2000 attack difference its just 235...

    Sadly DPS is "THE" measurement to which the game revolves for PVE anyways. So i guess outdpsing someone it the goal of everyone. Everyone wants to be top dog. I do realize as an MM i'm not going to be top dog vs alot of classes but I should be able to compete with atleast a few on more even ground. Look what happened with Marble Prots... hell anyone can tank now so their usefulness waned. Blood warriors kinda sealed their doom with super OP dps that they cant out aggro.

    My fear is that the burst MM is going to be treated like marble prots unless something is done. Bursts bring very little utility to the table.. their main function? massive aoe with long ranges... which sad to say isnt needed like it used to be for most instances.
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  • Drachus - EyrdaDrachus - Eyrda Posts: 1,532 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    oh its not 2000 attack difference its just 235...

    Sadly DPS is "THE" measurement to which the game revolves for PVE anyways. So i guess outdpsing someone it the goal of everyone. Everyone wants to be top dog. I do realize as an MM i'm not going to be top dog vs alot of classes but I should be able to compete with atleast a few on more even ground. Look what happened with Marble Prots... hell anyone can tank now so their usefulness waned. Blood warriors kinda sealed their doom with super OP dps that they cant out aggro.

    My fear is that the burst MM is going to be treated like marble prots unless something is done. Bursts bring very little utility to the table.. their main function? massive aoe with long ranges... which sad to say isnt needed like it used to be for most instances.

    Derp Derp Derp on me. I misread that! Anywho...

    I can understand your frustrations from a pve perspective. I can get wanting to outdps everyone if I played a pve server. Burst MM's have qualities that make them shine too, but they will never be the top in single target dps. If the damage of a burst MM - or any of the classes really - was skewed so that they could all dps on equal terms with only gear differences being considered... well, that would make these classes way unbalanced in other aspects of the game. :/

    But most games have different classes with different purposes... FW is the same. It seems like you just aren't happy with your class's function. There is nothing wrong with it. Just you want it to do what it isn't designed to do, and I do not see them changing the entire purpose of a class anytime soon. That really only gives you two hard choices: find a way to be content with what you have or change your build/char. Even for MM's there are better spike dps options than burst. Doing any of these would bring you more satisfaction than waiting for such a drastic change to a talent tree - it just isn't going to happen since there is nothing "wrong" with it.
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  • Isock - EyrdaIsock - Eyrda Posts: 589 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    fire mage have more attacks, specially if you just spamming rake of fury and penetrating shot
    also i have noticed that while burst doesn't seem to make much aggro compared to other classes, usually when the tank dies or stops attacking you get the aggro, so is not that you making less damage, is just that you make less aggro from attacks

    might want to add the other 3 aoes (salvo,burning swirl,high velocity shot) if want to hold on bosses/mobs
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  • Loli - Storm LegionLoli - Storm Legion Posts: 34 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    fire mage have more attacks, specially if you just spamming rake of fury and penetrating shot
    also i have noticed that while burst doesn't seem to make much aggro compared to other classes, usually when the tank dies or stops attacking you get the aggro, so is not that you making less damage, is just that you make less aggro from attacks

    might want to add the other 3 aoes (salvo,burning swirl,high velocity shot) if want to hold on bosses/mobs

    Im using Pen-shot > HVS > RoF > Salvo >Exorcising bullet if everything else is on cooldown
    Mobs always marked as well

    as for aggro mechanics who knows

    Self buffed
    avg HVS crits are ~270k on regular mobs
    Pen-shot ~107k
    others are similar 110k-117k
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  • Isock - EyrdaIsock - Eyrda Posts: 589 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    then is not that your damage is less than the mage, just the aggro mechanic
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  • ILikeBigGu - IllyfueILikeBigGu - Illyfue Posts: 1,066 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Why are you using hvs as secondary skill? it's more than twice the damage than the rest in your rotation +low cd.
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  • Shapelle - LionheartShapelle - Lionheart Posts: 250 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I'm similarly specced to the OP, but I'm at 87 Mastery for both Fire/Earth whereas you must be close to 100 on both. All other stats are pretty close though.

    My rotation is Burning Rage -> HVS -> Rake -> Pen -> Salvo -> Burning Swirl -> Soul Snipe, which seems to provide close to the highest dps sequence that is possible with Burst. HVS is kinda annoying in that it cancels ALL burning effects, including the Fuel stacks for Burning Swirl crits. It's kinda stupid, if you ask me, how a major power has an effect that cripples/cancels the basic and rune-power bonus effects of four other powers, but that's FW for you.

    I've long been aware that whatever a burst MM can do in terms of damage, a Fire/Wind Mage can do better, when similarly geared and specced. Whether multi-target or single-target, mages have the upper hand on MMs when it comes to PvE.

    Burst MMs are all about rapid fire/rapid cycle, long range AoE's that do less damage, but when adding all the effects together, is meant to be on par with Mages. I believe that's what the original intent was. The problem though, is that any critters that have any significant defense or damage reduction of some kind hurts Burst MM's damage output more than Mages, because when you take a flat amount off a lower value, the percentage impact on overall dps is more significant than on fewer/slower/bigger hitting powers, and so while MM's start off being good with dps, towards end game they tend to suffer more and more, as more critters have more resistances, defence, flat-rate damage-reduction, crit-def, and so on.

    Having said that, MMs are not walking gimps. With Burning Rage specced up, they can self-heal quite well vs mass trash mobs, and can pull in AoE aggro at high range. The invasion instances are a scenario where Burst MM's absolutely excel. They can gather quickly, AoE quickly, and self-heal while killing, and never need a heal. In boss fights, burst MM's take a back seat, but they are still useful when with runes, they're giving everyone +2.5% CC and +8% CD, and with their hunter mark, become more of a supporting role. Few people complain about have an MM in their party for the supporting role that they provide alone.

    You also need to consider that the aggro mechanics are slightly whacked too, and from my observation tends to weight heavily towards those who hit with big numbers on occasion, as opposed to those who might sustain more dps over time. Naturally, that means that aggro in FW tends to favour Dark Vamps, Venom Sins, Fire/Wind Mages, Glacial Priests, and Blood Warrs (and ele as well to some extent).

    Burst MM's have their role, and they do fill it, but a little extra DPS couldn't hurt. They have the lowest attack score gear of any DPS class, which is kinda stupid, but again, that's FW for you. You just gotta learn to swallow your pride at most always taking a back-seat role at never being the main leading tank despite having similar or better stats that other classes, and know that the boss is still going down faster simply because you're in the party, and providing the buffs and dps support that other classes (outside of Wind Bards, Ele Warrs, and now Brawler BRs) don't provide.
  • Loli - Storm LegionLoli - Storm Legion Posts: 34 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Why are you using hvs as secondary skill? it's more than twice the damage than the rest in your rotation +low cd.

    Sorry I meant HVS was supposed to be first and always spammed as much as its CD allows.. tho while botting I noticed pen-shot goes off twice as much part of the time.

    Unfortunately I'll never be a big pvp'r like iLikeBigGuns because i only have use of one arm (Desert Storm) and pvp as it is happens way too fast to do everything with just a mouse. So i am pve only.

    Hence i will forever be a Burst.
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  • Loli - Storm LegionLoli - Storm Legion Posts: 34 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I'm similarly specced to the OP, but I'm at 87 Mastery for both Fire/Earth whereas you must be close to 100 on both. All other stats are pretty close though.

    Nah just L93 fire 87 earth


    Burst MMs are all about rapid fire/rapid cycle, long range AoE's that do less damage, but when adding all the effects together, is meant to be on par with Mages. I believe that's what the original intent was. The problem though, is that any critters that have any significant defense or damage reduction of some kind hurts Burst MM's damage output more than Mages, because when you take a flat amount off a lower value, the percentage impact on overall dps is more significant than on fewer/slower/bigger hitting powers, and so while MM's start off being good with dps, towards end game they tend to suffer more and more, as more critters have more resistances, defence, flat-rate damage-reduction, crit-def, and so on.

    Yeah i've noticed this in the expansion mobs
    You also need to consider that the aggro mechanics are slightly whacked too, and from my observation tends to weight heavily towards those who hit with big numbers on occasion, as opposed to those who might sustain more dps over time. Naturally, that means that aggro in FW tends to favour Dark Vamps, Venom Sins, Fire/Wind Mages, Glacial Priests, and Blood Warrs (and ele as well to some extent).

    Yeah I started thinking maybe we just naturally generate less aggro.



    I guess i need to quit beating myself up over this and enjoy the game.. lol

    Heh atleast i can get the boss in room 50 to 18% without outside buffs with a **** demon with only 1 blue rose total to its name. Hoping for EB weapon soon too... want to retire this WG weapon.
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  • saielakessaielakes Posts: 176 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    When did you take the numbers from the mage? Out of fight or in fight?

    Fire Mages CritDmg and CritRate gets stronger while fighing. Also, if they take damage while Fire Shield buff is active they'll get Fire Mastery boost too.

    If in fight mage buffs are up and maxed they get:
    + 20% CritDmg
    + 9% CritRate (if they've Dyos' Virtue)
    + 56 Fire Mastery
  • Loli - Storm LegionLoli - Storm Legion Posts: 34 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    saielakes wrote: »
    When did you take the numbers from the mage? Out of fight or in fight?

    Fire Mages CritDmg and CritRate gets stronger while fighing. Also, if they take damage while Fire Shield buff is active they'll get Fire Mastery boost too.

    If in fight mage buffs are up and maxed they get:
    + 20% CritDmg
    + 9% CritRate (if they've Dyos' Virtue)
    + 56 Fire Mastery

    in fight.. shortly after starting first esem boss
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  • Shapelle - LionheartShapelle - Lionheart Posts: 250 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    If being a lead tank is your thing, consider speccing into pure precision. With your stats you should be capable of throwing out 500k critical hits against bosses often enough to keep the other big hitting classes honest. You'll still get out aggroed, but the number of people capable of doing so will be less.
  • ILikeBigGu - IllyfueILikeBigGu - Illyfue Posts: 1,066 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    No, burst dps better than prec.. Soul>burst>prec

    However if tanking rly is the goal then reroll class before its too late!
    Assasin or possibly bloodreaper
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  • Shapelle - LionheartShapelle - Lionheart Posts: 250 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    No, burst dps better than prec.. Soul>burst>prec

    However if tanking rly is the goal then reroll class before its too late!
    Assasin or possibly bloodreaper

    Precision just needs to be runed correctly, and then it streaks past soul. Get a Master Sniper rune, and over 50 Wisdom (Yellow) rune energy and then Extreme Sniping has around a 0.8s cast time. Spec out the Exorcising Bullet in the Precision tree, and it does damage about on par with ES. Get some Stray Bullet runes to reduce the CD on Fire At Will, and spec out the FaW proc reset for ES and EB, and it will reset the CDs on those fairly often. Max out pain mark and Hunter Mark effects, max out Encourage and strengthen up, and accuracy talents, max out Double Shot, and use Dyos tree, and push up Blue rune energy as well for better crit damage. Throw in some Motivate runes to round the lot off, and I've had VERY highly specced Dark Vamps and Mages needing to take 15-20s to pull aggro off me if my first ES lands a crit. Precision is one of those trees which looks mediocre until you understand all the procs that can work in its favor if you take the time to spec for it.
  • ILikeBigGu - IllyfueILikeBigGu - Illyfue Posts: 1,066 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    You're wrong.. You are just looking for biggest numbers, prec got way to long casttimes aswell no high % base atk, its good as its the best debuffer, dps its not..
    Burst can spam a 190% base atk skill, prec can not spam any skill with that good base atk, only extreme sniping can produce that damage which is 30sec cd while burst got it at 4sec cd. And you can get extreme sniping as any of the trees..
    If dark vamps and mages dont outdps you its because you have better gear or they play bad/bad build for pve.

    I can outaggro majority of players as well, through entire bosses, not few seconds, that includes all the classes and talents that follow. And I barely have PVE intens, just three pieces.. Does that mean MM have the best dps potential? NO.

    Summed up; NONE of the mm talents can compete in any way in terms of dps for pve.
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  • Isock - EyrdaIsock - Eyrda Posts: 589 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    >precision
    >dps

    pick one

    almost all casting times are 2 seconds, even whit high soulpower is not much difference
    if you want pure damage per second, then burst would be the option to go
    if want burst damage, then soul because soul bullets run out quick
    if want to keep doing high damage, then precision
    Precision just needs to be runed correctly, and then it streaks past soul. Get a Master Sniper rune, and over 50 Wisdom (Yellow) rune energy and then Extreme Sniping has around a 0.8s cast time. Spec out the Exorcising Bullet in the Precision tree, and it does damage about on par with ES. Get some Stray Bullet runes to reduce the CD on Fire At Will, and spec out the FaW proc reset for ES and EB, and it will reset the CDs on those fairly often

    the reset talent time on precision is not worth it, is like 4% chance, you are better off just waiting the cooldown than wasting talent points, and so many runes to just be on par whit soul? no ty
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  • ILikeBigGu - IllyfueILikeBigGu - Illyfue Posts: 1,066 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    >precision
    >dps

    pick one

    almost all casting times are 2 seconds, even whit high soulpower is not much difference
    if you want pure damage per second, then burst would be the option to go
    if want burst damage, then soul because soul bullets run out quick
    if want to keep doing high damage, then precision



    the reset talent time on precision is not worth it, is like 4% chance, you are better off just waiting the cooldown than wasting talent points, and so many runes to just be on par whit soul? no ty

    It's not close to be on par with soul..
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  • Shapelle - LionheartShapelle - Lionheart Posts: 250 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Numbers don't lie. I was burst and soul dual talent for a year. I agonized over going to precision but after being frustrated with Hell Road long enough I took the plunge and did it full on. Precision trivialized Hell Road, and I was able to clear the Room 50 boss where both soul and burst could not get the boss below 15% unless the Room bugged out and ran over time for a while.

    The FaW reset is 12% when specced up, not 4%.

    Y'all can theorize as much as you want, but when presented with a fixed quantity that is the Hell Road boss, and a score at the end based upon time, then Precision when set up correctly does more sustained damage than burst or soul.
  • Isock - EyrdaIsock - Eyrda Posts: 589 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Numbers don't lie. I was burst and soul dual talent for a year. I agonized over going to precision but after being frustrated with Hell Road long enough I took the plunge and did it full on. Precision trivialized Hell Road, and I was able to clear the Room 50 boss where both soul and burst could not get the boss below 15% unless the Room bugged out and ran over time for a while.

    The FaW reset is 12% when specced up, not 4%.

    Y'all can theorize as much as you want, but when presented with a fixed quantity that is the Hell Road boss, and a score at the end based upon time, then Precision when set up correctly does more sustained damage than burst or soul.

    12% to reset a 30 sec skill depending on a 4 sec skill? still no ty

    and you forgetting that hellroad changes a bit between trees, yes it is easier to pass on precision tree, also precision makes more damage to targets whit huntermark so eh
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  • Shapelle - LionheartShapelle - Lionheart Posts: 250 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I should add that I just bot the final room. My bot tree is:

    Hunter Mark
    Dazing Shot
    Extreme Sniping (0.8s cast time)
    Exorcising Bullet
    Fire At Will
    Salvo
    Soul Snipe
    Penetrating Shot
    Aimed Shot
    Mind Flaying Bullet

    With Double Shot set to activate whenever it's CD is over.

    I sat down with a calculator and ran the math for this, and this was the most optimal bot sequence. All the longer cast time powers are towards the end and only trigger when everything else is on CD.
  • Shapelle - LionheartShapelle - Lionheart Posts: 250 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    12% to reset a 30 sec skill depending on a 4 sec skill? still no ty

    and you forgetting that hellroad changes a bit between trees, yes it is easier to pass on precision tree, also precision makes more damage to targets whit huntermark so eh



    Nah, I went through the combat log too. Same damage required to take the final boss down, no matter what tree you're in.

    And for Fire At Will, that's what the Stray Bullet runes are for. To get the FaW CD down to 2.5s, instead of 4.
  • ILikeBigGu - IllyfueILikeBigGu - Illyfue Posts: 1,066 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    i can bot and not move in room 50 and get 80 acclaim with burst as well, 120 pve intens..

    You are talking about easiest tree to beat HR, not which deal the highest damage.

    Just compare the skills lol...

    I give up; if you think prec is better good for you, keep at it.


    My bot routine is
    (30sec cd) 1sec cast Burning rage
    (8sec cd) 0,5sec Hunters mark
    (30sec cd) 1sec cast extreme sniping
    190%/4,5k bonus (4sec cd) 1sec cast High Velocity shot
    140%/ 2,1k bonus (1sec cd) 1sec cast Penetrating shot
    100%/3,3k bonus(2sec cd) 1sec cast Rake of fury
    100%/ 4270 doubleshot (6sec cd) 2sec cast Salvo

    against yours
    (8sec cd) 1sec cast Hunter Mark
    (30sec cd) 1sec cast Dazing Shot
    200%/5,xk? (30sec cd) 1sec cast Extreme Sniping
    100%/12k? (20sec cd) 1,5sec cast Exorcising Bullet 1
    100%/3,xk bonus Fire At Will (3sec cd?) 1sec cast
    100%/4,xk bonus Salvo (6sec cd) 2sec cast
    100%/3,xk bonus Soul Snipe (6sec cd) 1sec cast
    100%?/2,xk bonus Penetrating Shot (6sec cd?) 1sec cast
    100%/ 5,xk bonus Aimed Shot (5sec cd) 2sec cast
    100%/ 7,8k? bonus Mind Flaying Bullet (4sec cd) 2sec cast

    Main reason why burst is doing more damage is because i can spam 190%/4,5k and 140%/2,1k while you are repeating fire at will 100%/3k and salvo 100%/4,xk, 100%/3,xk soul snipe.
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  • Shapelle - LionheartShapelle - Lionheart Posts: 250 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    You are talking about easiest tree to beat HR, not which deal the highest damage.

    Actually, if you read my posts, I'm not doing that at all. HR is just the fixed "attack dummy" I'm using to make comparisons with.
    Just compare the skills lol...
    I did do that, a lot, in far more detail than I believe that you think I've done.

    I give up too. I've said all that needs to be said. There's that old saying about horses and water..
  • Shapelle - LionheartShapelle - Lionheart Posts: 250 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I see you edited your post after mine. I'm out at the moment, and I'll reply later with a more detailed and correct analysis of the Precision tree.
  • Shapelle - LionheartShapelle - Lionheart Posts: 250 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Be prepared for a dose of the Red Pill....

    Ok, the main thing with the Precision tree, is that if you look at just the base power values, it looks pretty sad, however, that's not doing it justice. It needs to be looked at with the entire tree's bonuses at once. Precision is about buffing up, and debuffing, and these MUST be factored into any analysis.

    Firstly, let's deal with your attack score. Maxed Encourage + Maxed Strengthen Up will boost your attack score by 100% of your accuracy + 6% + 75. Let's put some hard numbers to that.

    Let's assume that we're dealing with a character (with gear) with an unbuffed accuracy of 650, and an attack score of 9000. Your personal values may vary, but let's run with these as being somewhat representative of a developed MM without super rare gear.

    Using those values (and Precision MM has +30 accuracy from Hawkeye as well)

    Burst MM Attack after permanent self buffs => 9000
    Precision MM Attack after permanent self buffs => (9000 x 1.06) + 75 + 708 => 10323

    Let's also assume a 1200 Mastery score for purposes of working out the damage of certain skills (you'll see what I mean later).

    That's a HUGE difference right there.

    Ok, now we need to consider Hunter Mark.
    Burst HM reduces the target's resistance by 36, and that's it.
    Precision HM reduces the target's resistance by 96, plus its defense is reduced by 6% + 135, PLUS the target takes +8% damage (<= That's a HUGE bonus)

    Since every 100 resistance loss is equal to +10% damage, a target affected by a precision hunter mark is taking +14% damage in comparison to burst, plus its defense loss. The defense thing isn't huge, but for end game critters, if we assume a defense score of 2000, we're talking about adding an extra 250 damage per hit. It's not much, but it does add up.


    Ok, so now let's compare a runed and maxed Fire At Will, to High Velocity Shot.

    FaW has its bonus damage increased by 50% of your Earth Mastery. So 100% + 2656, is actually 100% + 3256. Let's assume a target has a defense of 2000.

    Against a target affected by Hunter Mark, it works out to ((10323(attack) + 3256 (bonus) - 1745 (reduced defense) * 1.096 (resistance reduction)) * 1.08 (pain mark)

    That's a value of 14007 (excluding masteries)


    What's that compare to High Velocity Shot?

    HVS is 190% + 4584. Plugging that in, that's ((1.9 x 9000) + 4584 - 2000) * 1.036 => 20392 (excluding masteries)

    Granted, the number is bigger for HVS, BUT

    FaW, with runes, has a cycle time of 0.8 + 2.5 => 3.3s
    HVS, is 5.0s (or 4.8s if you have enough rune power), let's assume 4.8s for argument's sake.

    FaW DPS is 14007 / 3.3 => 4244
    HVS DPS is 20392 / 4.8 => 4248

    Oh, now, well would you look at THAT! Who would have thought that a crappy power like FaW, pound for pound, is sustaining damage against a single target on par with HVS?

    You criticise me for cycling FaW like it's crappy, but it's not. It is, pound for pound, as strong as HVS in terms of damage over time.

    So, Burst's strongest spammable power is matched by what many consider to be Precision's weakest spammable power when it comes to damage over time.

    All of the above, doesn't even begin to factor in the HUGE damage spikes offered by ES and EB.

    I'm in the middle of moving house, so if you're intrigued by what I'm writing above, I'll add those into the analysis as well, but suffice it to say, that they'll come up about every 15s on average (together), and a fully specced Precision EB is as strong as ES. So basically they're like 1 big attack that's coming up every 8s or so.
  • Isock - EyrdaIsock - Eyrda Posts: 589 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    erh

    you realized just saying that precision cannot spam as much as burst right?
    no one saying is bad
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  • Shapelle - LionheartShapelle - Lionheart Posts: 250 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    erh

    you realized just saying that precision cannot spam as much as burst right?
    no one saying is bad

    Sorry, I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say there....
  • ILikeBigGu - IllyfueILikeBigGu - Illyfue Posts: 1,066 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Discussing diffrent things obviously, I said it was the best debuffer already.
    When i discuss DPS especially when said its about taking aggro, I dont see how your debuffs take any part in it? as your teammates will get those debuffs added to boss aswell so they will do extra damage too. try and compare the damage without applying the debuffs then you will see the dps.
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  • Tonali - Storm LegionTonali - Storm Legion Posts: 232 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    This makes me want to go burst as main spec haha xD

    Lil question, IF i get 5 swift penetration runes as prec, that helps to equal the DPS between burst and prec? Or burst still better?
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