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Are bards overpowered?

powergalepowergale Posts: 74 Arc User
edited March 2012 in Class Discussion
I dont know..Some say bards are OP some say they arent..
Anyway i saw this level 75 bard beat level 75 winged dark vampire without even losing even half of his hp...Skill or overpowered?
Post edited by powergale on
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Comments

  • techprincetechprince Posts: 114 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    Shield will absorb alot of damage, and give you immunity to stuns and silence so no more stuns / silence from vampire. Insane mana drains from a water bard, vamps will run out of mana pretty quickly and hence rendering them useless, same goes against the classes that has low mana and rely on controlling.

    Skill vs OPness : mana drain itself is a killer for all, so its OP. But if a skilled vampire or any other class that uses time to gather orbs and hit within their mana gets drained, thats a skill.

    On side note : bard shield is OP :p
  • powergalepowergale Posts: 74 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    techprince wrote: »
    Shield will absorb alot of damage, and give you immunity to stuns and silence so no more stuns / silence from vampire. Insane mana drains from a water bard, vamps will run out of mana pretty quickly and hence rendering them useless, same goes against the classes that has low mana and rely on controlling.

    Skill vs OPness : mana drain itself is a killer for all, so its OP. But if a skilled vampire or any other class that uses time to gather orbs and hit within their mana gets drained, thats a skill.

    On side note : bard shield is OP :p

    I also heard they are useless without the shield and it only takes 6 hits to break it so use moves like lightning slash and thunder slash or the 4 hit skill of sins to break it faster
  • IMBALANZE - LionheartIMBALANZE - Lionheart Posts: 4,263 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    do you ever think of it the other way...that your party is underpowered?

    hmmm
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Sig by Luciferia
    I read CN
    drama aren't far from this siggy
  • CuteNDeadl - Storm LegionCuteNDeadl - Storm Legion Posts: 2,401 Arc User
    edited January 2012
  • WerePetar - IllyfueWerePetar - Illyfue Posts: 221 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    only havy CS ppl can kill good water bard whit 25k+ of hp :( they can cast shild btw if they are stuned or silenced to ;( so noone use of taking shild dawn,sry for bad eng
  • ohaigaiseohaigaise Posts: 689 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    wings dont mean anything, nor does 1v1.
  • sylwerdragon77sylwerdragon77 Posts: 63 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    Well i'm bard lvl 72 and i think this water shield isn't so good it can help a little but it isn't so good as you may think...in PVE perfect in PVP only good. btw i have two HP gems and lvl 65+equipment and my hp is only about 11k HP...so i even wonder how is possible get 20k HP...

    I saw warior with +-30k Hp and he wasn't using lvl 4 gems and he was around 70-75(or so)

    so tell me how is possible get to that 20k HP.

    and against assasins only hp is good.

    oh and btw that Water shield isn't so good it can give back only 9%(HP) from my MP so i need even more MP to be good. and after 6 hits it's gone..but it can be increased if i will use D chords ..but still it isn't so good ..btw i would be much glader for reflecting dmg than reducing to 60% of original dmg.

    I said it before crit dmg from assasin on me was 8K and shield didn't help too much few hits and i was dead...so i don't think this water shields isso good in PVP..yes we need it ..is it so strong ? No
  • natkoanatkoa Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    i have two HP gems and lvl 65+equipment and my hp is only about 11k HP...so i even wonder how is possible get 20k HP...

    I saw warior with +-30k Hp and he wasn't using lvl 4 gems and he was around 70-75(or so

    2 hp gems is nothing, if you want high hp you can't have just 2 hp gems in your gear

    and it's possible to have 20k hp, harder for bards, but very much possible


    I don't understand the part with the warrior, do you think this is high or?highest hp I saw on illyfue was 55+ (can't recall exact number) and it was on a warr, but still, you can have 20k+ hp on a bard
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • sylwerdragon77sylwerdragon77 Posts: 63 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    No i said he wasn't full of gems and still had more HP than i will ever have :)

    btw. if i will have 6x lvl 2 gems that is only about 2k so that is not much and lvl 3 HP stones cost even more.

    but lvl 3 and lvl 4 gems cost just too much at least i think this is the case.
  • faimonfaimon Posts: 70 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    Well i'm bard lvl 72 and i think this water shield isn't so good it can help a little but it isn't so good as you may think...in PVE perfect in PVP only good. btw i have two HP gems and lvl 65+equipment and my hp is only about 11k HP...so i even wonder how is possible get 20k HP...

    I saw warior with +-30k Hp and he wasn't using lvl 4 gems and he was around 70-75(or so)

    so tell me how is possible get to that 20k HP.

    and against assasins only hp is good.

    oh and btw that Water shield isn't so good it can give back only 9%(HP) from my MP so i need even more MP to be good. and after 6 hits it's gone..but it can be increased if i will use D chords ..but still it isn't so good ..btw i would be much glader for reflecting dmg than reducing to 60% of original dmg.

    I said it before crit dmg from assasin on me was 8K and shield didn't help too much few hits and i was dead...so i don't think this water shields isso good in PVP..yes we need it ..is it so strong ? No

    Im a 78 bard. Only use 1 HP lvl 4 gem. My HP almost 23k HP with armor lvl 71-74. It just comes from the gear, make it 9/12 and you have 20k+ HP too.
  • iwoaxoniwoaxon Posts: 79 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    A dark vamp losing to a bard? That dark vamp obviously didn't know what the hell he was doing. Dark vamps have immunity to slow + charmed strike to break free of ensares + hp regen from attacks + quick burst damage to go through the shield. It's pretty much an anti-bard class. Unless the dark vamp has such crappy gear that he dies from the sleep + freeze after-effect, the dark vamp should win.

    And wings don't mean anything. The vamp could have stacked his gear with level 4 defence/MP gems. He'd have wings, but it wouldn't make a difference.
  • Shirohikar - Storm LegionShirohikar - Storm Legion Posts: 66 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    iwoaxon wrote: »
    A dark vamp losing to a bard? That dark vamp obviously didn't know what the hell he was doing. Dark vamps have immunity to slow + charmed strike to break free of ensares + hp regen from attacks + quick burst damage to go through the shield. It's pretty much an anti-bard class. Unless the dark vamp has such crappy gear that he dies from the sleep + freeze after-effect, the dark vamp should win.

    And wings don't mean anything. The vamp could have stacked his gear with level 4 defence/MP gems. He'd have wings, but it wouldn't make a difference.

    +1

    If there is one class that should be able to take out a bard (more specifically, a water bard), it should be dark vamps. If they can't -- they don't know what they're doing.
  • SharpFang - EyrdaSharpFang - Eyrda Posts: 232 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    Well i'm bard lvl 72 and i think this water shield isn't so good it can help a little but it isn't so good as you may think...in PVE perfect in PVP only good. btw i have two HP gems and lvl 65+equipment and my hp is only about 11k HP...so i even wonder how is possible get 20k HP...

    I saw warior with +-30k Hp and he wasn't using lvl 4 gems and he was around 70-75(or so)

    so tell me how is possible get to that 20k HP.

    and against assasins only hp is good.

    oh and btw that Water shield isn't so good it can give back only 9%(HP) from my MP so i need even more MP to be good. and after 6 hits it's gone..but it can be increased if i will use D chords ..but still it isn't so good ..btw i would be much glader for reflecting dmg than reducing to 60% of original dmg.

    I said it before crit dmg from assasin on me was 8K and shield didn't help too much few hits and i was dead...so i don't think this water shields isso good in PVP..yes we need it ..is it so strong ? No

    what would you define as strong XD?

    and also you said that a sin can kill you but against war,prots,MM,and preist i think its good

    every1 has to have a weakness its just moreappernt in some class/trees than others many think edge sin can kill any1 in the game but same gear same lvl prot can easily beat a sin (IF he knows what he is doing) ppl think wars can't kill sins. not true aegis wars remove silence and have enough def to stay alive from outagous crits. even a good dark vamp can get a sin with good timing with mana explosion and a dark bonds to keep sin still. ice mages can pop sinster protection as soon as screen goes purple to dodge the crit-stun then speed buff and ice arrow then a frost realm when they use DC.

    moral of the story is OP classes arnt as OP as you think they just might have good gear gems and mastery
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • FreakyPrie - NyosFreakyPrie - Nyos Posts: 877 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    @Sylwer
    I've arenad with you and unfortunately you just fail. So sorry, can't take your opinion seriously.

    @OP
    Well 1vs1 beating a water bard is insanely hard. Shield isn't that easy to take down, you're slowed pretty much non stop so no wrath either and they can't be stunned/silenced.

    In arena it's mainly the drain that screws you over. 6k mp badges last you like one skill and then the bard already drained your mana again and unless you're lucky enough to have a mana fountain spawn beneath you, it's highly unlikely you'll get to one since you're slowed way too much.

    Damage wise they're quite weak. They're one of the few classes I can outheal even when they're redhanded. From what I've heard their mana drain will get a nerf (at least has gotten one on CN) so after that I'd say they'll be a lot less powerful due to their lack of damage.

    @Rest
    About that vamp being immune to slow, I do arena with a vamp and he quite often complains about his anti slow not properly working. Any vamp who can testify on this?
  • noxshadow1noxshadow1 Posts: 184 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    You know...the whole "Shield and Mana Drain and Slow" arguments have all been brought up numerous times.

    Mages can AoE MP Drain and Freeze, AND they can purge our shield without hitting it the required number of times.

    The only reason other classes call us overpowered is instead of attacking your HP, we attack your MP...and since you don't have as much MP as you have HP...it hurts you more. Guess what...we don't have as much HP as you do...does that mean we should start declairing you overpowered because you can hit harder than we can?

    Warriors have a Shield, Priests have a Shield, Mages have a Shield, Sins...stealth (no shield really), Protectors have a shield, and MM have a weak excuse for a shield. Our shield may be more powerful, but it also has the biggest limitation. Instead of being based off a % of our HP like most shield, our is based off only 6 hits. So even if the attacks only do 100 damage, if you hit us 6 times...that's 600 damage taking our shield down...

    You can nit-pick all you want...and call bards overpowered all you want...and in turn we can find reasons you're all JUST as overpowered in different forms. The fact you don't like a class because it can beat you though is NOT a reason to call it overpowered. There are several trees that can take a Water Bard on 1v1 and win.
  • SharpFang - EyrdaSharpFang - Eyrda Posts: 232 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    noxshadow1 wrote: »
    You know...the whole "Shield and Mana Drain and Slow" arguments have all been brought up numerous times.

    Mages can AoE MP Drain and Freeze, AND they can purge our shield without hitting it the required number of times.

    The only reason other classes call us overpowered is instead of attacking your HP, we attack your MP...and since you don't have as much MP as you have HP...it hurts you more. Guess what...we don't have as much HP as you do...does that mean we should start declairing you overpowered because you can hit harder than we can?

    Warriors have a Shield, Priests have a Shield, Mages have a Shield, Sins...stealth (no shield really), Protectors have a shield, and MM have a weak excuse for a shield. Our shield may be more powerful, but it also has the biggest limitation. Instead of being based off a % of our HP like most shield, our is based off only 6 hits. So even if the attacks only do 100 damage, if you hit us 6 times...that's 600 damage taking our shield down...

    You can nit-pick all you want...and call bards overpowered all you want...and in turn we can find reasons you're all JUST as overpowered in different forms. The fact you don't like a class because it can beat you though is NOT a reason to call it overpowered. There are several trees that can take a Water Bard on 1v1 and win.

    i just made a comment about OP and every thing but i have to rebuttle this statment all the
    comments highlighted in red have a 180-300 second cooldown and if by sin stealth you ment the 30 second one think about how many AoE counter stealth and you relize it isn't as godly as it may seem. the only and i mean ONLY skill that can be compared to that 13 sec cd shield of bards is the mages' sheild which you may say is OP but if the mage doesn't have gems ,it can cut into their mana severly enough to drain them dry. your bard
    sheild can slow then and with your instant freezes the only ppl that can kill you sheild and not have to care for the freezes is a mage,sin, and vamp (MM too but they generally suck endgame) im not saying bard is OP just that your sheild IS a major advantage that cannot compare with any1 except mage the reason they give both mage and bard shield is cause THEY ARE SQUISHY mage has 50% cause they are squishier without these sheild (as it shows in pure wind or pure light) bards would die easily
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • FreakyPrie - NyosFreakyPrie - Nyos Posts: 877 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    noxshadow1 wrote: »
    You know...the whole "Shield and Mana Drain and Slow" arguments have all been brought up numerous times.

    Mages can AoE MP Drain and Freeze, AND they can purge our shield without hitting it the required number of times.

    Mage AoE drain has a 45s cd though as water and the lightning one almost has more disadvantages than advantages. (and even longer cd)

    Oh and purge working on bard shield? That'd be a first :rolleyes:
    noxshadow1 wrote: »
    The only reason other classes call us overpowered is instead of attacking your HP, we attack your MP...and since you don't have as much MP as you have HP...it hurts you more. Guess what...we don't have as much HP as you do...does that mean we should start declairing you overpowered because you can hit harder than we can?

    As much hp as YOU do? The ranged classes all have roughly the same hp, just the melees got more and they got the rather obvious range disadvantage so more hp is just fair.
    noxshadow1 wrote: »
    Warriors have a Shield, Priests have a Shield, Mages have a Shield, Sins...stealth (no shield really), Protectors have a shield, and MM have a weak excuse for a shield. Our shield may be more powerful, but it also has the biggest limitation. Instead of being based off a % of our HP like most shield, our is based off only 6 hits. So even if the attacks only do 100 damage, if you hit us 6 times...that's 600 damage taking our shield down...

    Eh, no class has a permanent shield like you guys. Priests come close, with only 4s downtime and mage shield has longer duration than cd, but drains mana so insanely fast it's hardly feasible. The other "shields" are pretty much all long cd moves. Oh and 6 hits? 2 d-chords and it lasts 12 hits with 15s cd, 21s duration. :rolleyes:

    noxshadow1 wrote: »
    You can nit-pick all you want...and call bards overpowered all you want...and in turn we can find reasons you're all JUST as overpowered in different forms. The fact you don't like a class because it can beat you though is NOT a reason to call it overpowered. There are several trees that can take a Water Bard on 1v1 and win.

    Eh, I'd say you should learn your class, because apparently I know 10x as much about bards than you do. Come back when you know your class. :rolleyes:
  • SharpFang - EyrdaSharpFang - Eyrda Posts: 232 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    @above +1 to you i forgot about preist sheild
    I hope your logic can deliver these noobs from their silliness
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • noxshadow1noxshadow1 Posts: 184 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    Mage AoE drain has a 45s cd though as water and the lightning one almost has more disadvantages than advantages. (and even longer cd)

    Oh and purge working on bard shield? That'd be a first :rolleyes:



    As much hp as YOU do? The ranged classes all have roughly the same hp, just the melees got more and they got the rather obvious range disadvantage so more hp is just fair.



    Eh, no class has a permanent shield like you guys. Priests come close, with only 4s downtime and mage shield has longer duration than cd, but drains mana so insanely fast it's hardly feasible. The other "shields" are pretty much all long cd moves. Oh and 6 hits? 2 d-chords and it lasts 12 hits with 15s cd, 21s duration. :rolleyes:




    Eh, I'd say you should learn your class, because apparently I know 10x as much about bards than you do. Come back when you know your class. :rolleyes:

    The Bold part is the reason it's impossible to explain it to you people.

    Take away a Water Bard's shield and what do they have? Exceptionally long cooldown on a weak AoE heal, having to cast 3 skills to get any damage that doesn't even COMPARE to even a MM's damage (Priests are the only class I've seen that hit less than a Bard). Bards as a whole only get around 3k bonus damage on our skills...and the ONE AoE Skill Bards get unless their wind only does a 2-strike of 1.3k damage. (BOTH AoEs are obtained at 75...even if you're Wind)

    I'm aware other class's shield have longer cooldowns. Other classes also have skills to suppliment the time inbetween casting. Whether it's a natural increase in HP and Def. like Warriors get, or sheer nuking damage like Mages get. Spammable healing like Priests get (Light Bards get this as well, however Light Bards do NOT get a Shield) and even a zero-MP cost skill to increase the damage and special effects of skills that the MM get. I KNOW my class enough to know the very thing you people are whining about is the ONLY thing keeping bards viable in combat against players. Even the MOST SUPPORT ORIENTED class in this game...Priests...have MP-Stealing skills when Glacial...they also get a non-target oriented AoE skill 25 levels before Bards and they can STILL buff themselves outside combat and spam heal themselves IN combat...as well as convert their attack damage into healing with Sympathy.

    The main argument I'm seeing here is in short wanting to bump Bards down to a support-only class. Wind Bards have the highest attack of the three, but almost all the attack they get are party buffs, meaning it's still in essence a support class as 5-6 skills have to be cast before the damage is even remotely equal to any other DDing class (2 outside of combat, 3 in combat if waiting for Solo of Wind isn't a viable option). That does NOT make them PvP friendly compared to Mages, Warriors and Sin who can pre-cast and power up before going into a fight, or Mages who's damage is strong enough from the get go. Light Bards are without a doubt a support-only class, as their damage and cooldown times are against them to the point where damage isn't an option.

    That leaves Water Bards. Their attacks are weaker than Wind Bards, they have no skill aside from their Shield to increase their defense unless they cast Majesty and get a pathetic increase to their defense (For those who DON'T know, Bards receive less Defense Bonus from Majesty than party members around them) and their one skill to increase damage requires they stack D chords and have Note of Rest available. In short, Water Bards are NERFED Ice mages without their Shield. Who in their right mind is going to willing choose to play a weakened version of a different class in the game?

    Before you people start complaining about a class...and even worse...before you start accusing those of us trying to make a counter argument in a swell of negativity...for an already difficult class that we DON'T KNOW WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT perhaps you should look at how things would be if you got exactly what you wanted. Personally, I enjoy being a Wind Bard...but I would think twice about staying a Bard of ANY sort if all that's going to happen is people complain and whine because one person can do something that they can't. Bards have even gone so far to explain to you how to beat us...but instead of realizing "HEY! They DO have a weakness!" you'd rather come to this forum and complain about it.

    And...as a personal note to the **** who decided to tell me I didn't know how to play my class...I'm a Lvl78 Wind Bard...who has also played as a Light, Water, Water-Light Hybrid, Water-Wind Hybrid and Wind-Light Hybrid Bard. I've been playing a Bard since Closed Beta, and instead of focusing on getting to the END-GAME level as fast as possible, I've taken my time to develop my character and understand my limitations compared to other classes. I've cleared every instance in this game save for Gauntlet of Storm as every type of Bard I've listed...and I can explain any Bard skill or strategy you'd like to discuss at anytime...that is, if you really think you know 10x as much about Bards as I do...**** wipe...

    - Demyx
  • FreakyPrie - NyosFreakyPrie - Nyos Posts: 877 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    noxshadow1 wrote: »
    The Bold part is the reason it's impossible to explain it to you people.

    Take away a Water Bard's shield and what do they have? Exceptionally long cooldown on a weak AoE heal, having to cast 3 skills to get any damage that doesn't even COMPARE to even a MM's damage (Priests are the only class I've seen that hit less than a Bard). Bards as a whole only get around 3k bonus damage on our skills...and the ONE AoE Skill Bards get unless their wind only does a 2-strike of 1.3k damage. (BOTH AoEs are obtained at 75...even if you're Wind)

    And what does an ice mage have without Fury of Ice, a diamond prot without stuns etc etc. Every class has their strong point, nobody ever said that it had to be removed, the question that was raised was whether it was TOO strong.

    Oh and what water bards have besides shield? The best single target mana drain and slow. Just to answer that question.
    noxshadow1 wrote: »
    I'm aware other class's shield have longer cooldowns. Other classes also have skills to suppliment the time inbetween casting. Whether it's a natural increase in HP and Def. like Warriors get, or sheer nuking damage like Mages get. Spammable healing like Priests get (Light Bards get this as well, however Light Bards do NOT get a Shield) and even a zero-MP cost skill to increase the damage and special effects of skills that the MM get. I KNOW my class enough to know the very thing you people are whining about is the ONLY thing keeping bards viable in combat against players. Even the MOST SUPPORT ORIENTED class in this game...Priests...have MP-Stealing skills when Glacial...they also get a non-target oriented AoE skill 25 levels before Bards and they can STILL buff themselves outside combat and spam heal themselves IN combat...as well as convert their attack damage into healing with Sympathy.

    Thanks to their buffs water bards actually got a reason to cast other skills. Most classes got no reason whatsover to cast skills outside their tree.
    Not to mention water skills got so little cool down with talents there isn't any time in between casting anyway :p
    noxshadow1 wrote: »
    The main argument I'm seeing here is in short wanting to bump Bards down to a support-only class. Wind Bards have the highest attack of the three, but almost all the attack they get are party buffs, meaning it's still in essence a support class as 5-6 skills have to be cast before the damage is even remotely equal to any other DDing class (2 outside of combat, 3 in combat if waiting for Solo of Wind isn't a viable option). That does NOT make them PvP friendly compared to Mages, Warriors and Sin who can pre-cast and power up before going into a fight, or Mages who's damage is strong enough from the get go. Light Bards are without a doubt a support-only class, as their damage and cooldown times are against them to the point where damage isn't an option.

    That leaves Water Bards. Their attacks are weaker than Wind Bards, they have no skill aside from their Shield to increase their defense unless they cast Majesty and get a pathetic increase to their defense (For those who DON'T know, Bards receive less Defense Bonus from Majesty than party members around them) and their one skill to increase damage requires they stack D chords and have Note of Rest available. In short, Water Bards are NERFED Ice mages without their Shield. Who in their right mind is going to willing choose to play a weakened version of a different class in the game?

    Again, nobody here EVER said anything about nerfing water bards. The question in this thread was whether water bards are OP and that's what's being discussed. I'm not sure what argument you're seeing....

    Also at what point did water bards lose surge and courage? Last time I checked those were still attack buffs. While they're more annoying to activate than warrior buffs they're still there.

    Oh and your ice mage comparison. Lets do the same for them! Take their Fury of Ice away! You think anyone would actually still bother with ice mages? :rolleyes:

    Lets put it like this. Water bard without shield vs ice mage without Fury. I'd definitely go for water bard. You still got insane mana drain and slows while the ice mage would be stuck with a 45s frost realm that barely damages, an ice arrow that has a limitation on how often it can freeze and a bunch of skills off other elements that don't even give buffs like bard skills do.
    noxshadow1 wrote: »
    Before you people start complaining about a class...and even worse...before you start accusing those of us trying to make a counter argument in a swell of negativity...for an already difficult class that we DON'T KNOW WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT perhaps you should look at how things would be if you got exactly what you wanted. Personally, I enjoy being a Wind Bard...but I would think twice about staying a Bard of ANY sort if all that's going to happen is people complain and whine because one person can do something that they can't. Bards have even gone so far to explain to you how to beat us...but instead of realizing "HEY! They DO have a weakness!" you'd rather come to this forum and complain about it.

    You were the one that came here and started QQing how bard shield shouldn't be removed. Before you nobody ever mentioned that. :rolleyes: Until you came along this was nothing more than a question from some guy and a few opinions on it.
    noxshadow1 wrote: »
    And...as a personal note to the **** who decided to tell me I didn't know how to play my class...I'm a Lvl78 Wind Bard...who has also played as a Light, Water, Water-Light Hybrid, Water-Wind Hybrid and Wind-Light Hybrid Bard. I've been playing a Bard since Closed Beta, and instead of focusing on getting to the END-GAME level as fast as possible, I've taken my time to develop my character and understand my limitations compared to other classes. I've cleared every instance in this game save for Gauntlet of Storm as every type of Bard I've listed...and I can explain any Bard skill or strategy you'd like to discuss at anytime...that is, if you really think you know 10x as much about Bards as I do...**** wipe...

    - Demyx

    Really? Then why do you claim the shield can be purged when every mage I met in game has tried and failed? And even if it was possible, purge is by far the easiest skill in game to avoid.

    Why do you claim shield only lasts 6 hits when every half skilled bard makes it last 12 hits?

    Why do you claim you got so low hp when you don't? Or do priests nowadays have low hp as well? Since you got just as much as them. (And don't tell me priest got hp buff since 99% off the time you'll be in a party with priest and therefore also have it.)

    Pretty much all the "facts" you stated were incorrect.
  • ohaigaiseohaigaise Posts: 689 Arc User
    edited January 2012

    @Rest
    About that vamp being immune to slow, I do arena with a vamp and he quite often complains about his anti slow not properly working. Any vamp who can testify on this?

    vamps anti slow doesnt dispel. if your slowed before your in vamp form, you stay slowed until the duration is finished.

    dont know if someone else already replied, but i got lazy reading.
  • Unbrokenable - LionheartUnbrokenable - Lionheart Posts: 313 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    noxshadow1 wrote: »
    You can nit-pick all you want...and call bards overpowered all you want...and in turn we can find reasons you're all JUST as overpowered in different forms. The fact you don't like a class because it can beat you though is NOT a reason to call it overpowered. There are several trees that can take a Water Bard on 1v1 and win.

    Tell me exactly how a protector, with any talent, can beat a water bard. Go right ahead. I'll even let you say the protector has infinite mana.

    Now think up something that has even remotely the same level of domination over a water bard.

    Now I'm not saying bards are necessarily overpowered, but they're pretty stupid good at 1v1.
  • FreakyPrie - NyosFreakyPrie - Nyos Posts: 877 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    ohaigaise wrote: »
    vamps anti slow doesnt dispel. if your slowed before your in vamp form, you stay slowed until the duration is finished.

    dont know if someone else already replied, but i got lazy reading.

    I see, thanks for clearing that up.
  • noxshadow1noxshadow1 Posts: 184 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    And what does an ice mage have without Fury of Ice, a diamond prot without stuns etc etc. Every class has their strong point, nobody ever said that it had to be removed, the question that was raised was whether it was TOO strong.

    Oh and what water bards have besides shield? The best single target mana drain and slow. Just to answer that question.

    You're comparing removing an ATTACK skill from removing a DEFENSIVE skill. You remove an attack and you remove damage....Bards don't have the Damage to begin with unless they cast their IN-COMBAT buffs (which take time...I'll cover that in the next part). If you want it to be a fair comparison, you'd have to find a Bard equal to Fury of Ice since Mages already have a Shield as you mentioned before that...while comparable to the Bard Shield does in fact cost them MP. You have a Mage go up against a Sin without any of their defensive skills and see how long they'll last...now increase it x2 since in most cases the DPS of the opposing team will go after the Bard first since we're so identifiable.

    Thanks to their buffs water bards actually got a reason to cast other skills. Most classes got no reason whatsover to cast skills outside their tree.
    Not to mention water skills got so little cool down with talents there isn't any time in between casting anyway :p

    This is suppose to be a good thing!? That means our damage is spread out over 3 different types, making it harder to train Mastery and causing an inconsistency in damage for ANY bard, regardless of tree...nice try though.

    Again, nobody here EVER said anything about nerfing water bards. The question in this thread was whether water bards are OP and that's what's being discussed. I'm not sure what argument you're seeing....

    What do you think the point of a thread complaining about the OPness of a class is meant for? I'm not new to the forums...I'm aware how many threads are out there that are nothing but glorified arguments to nerf Water Bards, whether it's due to the shield, or the MP drain.
    Also at what point did water bards lose surge and courage? Last time I checked those were still attack buffs. While they're more annoying to activate than warrior buffs they're still there.

    Yes, they're attack buffs. Attack buffs that require 3 spells each to be cast. Since the casting time of Water skills doesn't dip below 1s, and 2 D Chords are required for both Surge and Courage...just in casting D Chords that's 4 seconds in combat where the attack buffs are not up. Surge luckily is an instant cast, however Courage is a 5-Stack skill, meaning even after it's cast you have to wait for the stack to reach 5, which takes another 3-5 seconds (I haven't timed it myself since I'm wind, and it's the one buff I can pre-cast). While we're throwing out weak low-damage skills to get our buffs up, do you honestly think all the other classes are just sitting there waiting? No! They're attacking us! That means we have to have something to protect ourselves, whether it's a Shield, a Pre-Cast or an insane Self-Heal.
    Oh and your ice mage comparison. Lets do the same for them! Take their Fury of Ice away! You think anyone would actually still bother with ice mages? :rolleyes:

    Again, you're talking about an attack skill...and since each Mage Tree is simply a different type of DPS...the angle of your argument is moot. Lightning and Fire Mages may not be the best in PvP, but I will assure you greatly that a Fire or Lightning Mage will overpower a Light Bard (I'm not going to include Wind in that argument, since it's a more even fight between Wind Bards and Fire Mages). Instead of trying to pick out a specific aspect of the class I'm using to compare, you should keep the argument in the general sense that was originally intended in the comparison.
    Lets put it like this. Water bard without shield vs ice mage without Fury. I'd definitely go for water bard. You still got insane mana drain and slows while the ice mage would be stuck with a 45s frost realm that barely damages, an ice arrow that has a limitation on how often it can freeze and a bunch of skills off other elements that don't even give buffs like bard skills do.

    You've obviously not played a higher level match with a Bard vs other classes. Bards do NOT get a major increase to their defenses as they level unless they massively train up their resistances. The Bard Defense Buff adds more defense to party members than to the Bard itself...why, I don't know. The skill specifically says however that party members receive more Def. than the caster. Now with an Ice Mage in their little Ice Shield...they can regain HP and take no damage...sure they can't move, but why would they need to. They have no Chords to maintain or spells to cast while defending themselves. They simply put the shield up and can sit there.

    You were the one that came here and started QQing how bard shield shouldn't be removed. Before you nobody ever mentioned that. :rolleyes: Until you came along this was nothing more than a question from some guy and a few opinions on it.

    I love how you say that so innocently...but anyone who looks at past discussions talking about the Bards being nerfed will find your name in a lot of them. I may have made the mistake of taking past discussions and basing my comments off the fact they all started the same way...in short an assumption, but let's not pretend that we don't know how and why threads continue like this. It's been the same way since the game started. It always starts off as an innocent comment that eventually evolves into a "They should change this, or that" topic. The way I see it, I just skipped the bull and cut to the chase.
    Really? Then why do you claim the shield can be purged when every mage I met in game has tried and failed? And even if it was possible, purge is by far the easiest skill in game to avoid.

    I'll admit...this was based off second-hand accounts. As I mentioned, I'm a Wind Bard now and have been for a while. Before people would simply try to pop the bubble with multi-strike skills, so the Purge theory is untested on my part
    Why do you claim shield only lasts 6 hits when every half skilled bard makes it last 12 hits?

    "Half-Skilled" Bards may make it last 12, but the skill itself clearly says 6 at every angle. Whether they're re-casting it or counting the hits wrong, I've no clue myself. As well the 21 second duration is only when you hit the end of the tree, and the 2 D Chord duration increase they talk about in the skill isn't true at 75. Regardless of Chords the skill will last that long. There's a reason I switched to Wind, personally I don't count the number of times I'm hit...I simply try to stop whatever's hitting me.
    Why do you claim you got so low hp when you don't? Or do priests nowadays have low hp as well? Since you got just as much as them. (And don't tell me priest got hp buff since 99% off the time you'll be in a party with priest and therefore also have it.)

    I wasn't comparing Bards to Priests. I was comparing Bards to the melee classes, which "99%" of the time are the ones who are most upset about Water Bard Shields. You can say it's because they're melee and they're close range...but the fact is aside from Protectors every other melee class in the game has a skill to move them to their targets from a range...usually stunning or slowing as well. It's no work at all for a Warrior to get their HP above 30k with Level 1-2 Gems and +4-6 refines, however as a Bard it takes mass refining and HP Jewelry to get my HP over 20k without a full set of Bloodstone III in every piece of armor.
    Pretty much all the "facts" you stated were incorrect.

    The facts weren't incorrect...all the numbers I used to support my opinions were accurate. I've already discussed my not researching the Purge Factor myself, however everything else was simply either opinion or situational statistics. If you'd like to argue about the number of hits a Water Bard shield can take, you can take that up with the people who program the game and specifically say 6, OR you can come back with a counter argument from a Water Bard explaining how they get 12 hits. Until you do that, your statements are speculation (against what the game obviously says different).

    Everything else that was "fact" you never disputed, instead you offered a counter opinion or argument to my opinion or argument. If you're going to sit there and say the damage a Bard spell does is equal to that of a Mage spell, you should go back and look at your numbers. If you're going to say a Bard's defense is equal to that of a Warrior I'd probably die laughing...as that's the whole reason almost every caster class in this game gets a %dmg reduction shield (Poor Vamps). If you're going to compare the speed of a Bard buff to the speed of other class's buffs, you'll fall a bit short since Bards (and Vampires in some situations) are the ONLY class in the game that have to wait until the fight starts to cast their most basic of buffs.

    In the future...if you're going to try and disprove what I say, do it in a more broad ranged spectrum. Don't try to pick out specific situations. It causes me to write out these really long posts and frankly it's far too time consuming for me to go to each class and explain how it affects them. As this is a general discussion about Water Bards, lets stay within the global range of Water Bards and ALL the classes that go against them, instead of the specific ones. We've barely touched how Marksmen, Priests and Vampires deal with Water Bards...and if we're going to include them as specific examples, we might as well write a whole book and get it published.
  • AjX - LionheartAjX - Lionheart Posts: 8 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    each class has their decided weakness and strengths no class is truely oped unless the player playing the charecter knows what he/she is doing theirfor without skill abilities mean nothing
  • sylwerdragon77sylwerdragon77 Posts: 63 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    @Sylwer
    I've arenad with you and unfortunately you just fail. So sorry, can't take your opinion seriously.

    --> I don't know what you mean pls. use plain eng.


    and i have to agree i'm new here and i'm still learning but i did fight few times, but I'm not veteran or PRO here. So please accept it.

    We should first think about

    team play -> ...where we are good and we can support team mebers and here we are not OP we are helping as much as we can.

    and Arena -> .. where we are not so good because we have to cast chords just to get some buffs on (and if you are water.. light/wind chords take more time because of cd) and sometimes you have to use healing skill even if you wanted another skill/buff/...but better cast aoe healing than let somebody die :)

    I'm not saying i'm expert here i'm only saying what i think, i may be wrong and btw i have to agree with that (bards with lvl 1,2 Hp gems will not get very high HP)and upgrading gear to 9 is not cheap...and take time :) If i'm here one year i would say something else...after one year of playing i would have more alts and stones and so on..but i'm not :)
  • powergalepowergale Posts: 74 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    what would you define as strong XD?

    and also you said that a sin can kill you but against war,prots,MM,and preist i think its good

    every1 has to have a weakness its just moreappernt in some class/trees than others many think edge sin can kill any1 in the game but same gear same lvl prot can easily beat a sin (IF he knows what he is doing) ppl think wars can't kill sins. not true aegis wars remove silence and have enough def to stay alive from outagous crits. even a good dark vamp can get a sin with good timing with mana explosion and a dark bonds to keep sin still. ice mages can pop sinster protection as soon as screen goes purple to dodge the crit-stun then speed buff and ice arrow then a frost realm when they use DC.

    moral of the story is OP classes arnt as OP as you think they just might have good gear gems and mastery
    Human sins can use pray...>.<
  • SharpFang - EyrdaSharpFang - Eyrda Posts: 232 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    true but thats is a 300 sec skill so it doesnt count >.<
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • techprincetechprince Posts: 114 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    Shield is OP'd with current duration + cd and immunity.
  • francischutneyfrancischutney Posts: 630 Arc User
    edited January 2012
    You have to sneak up on them while they're not paying attention and hit them with their shield down, they'll lose half their HP in 2 hits.

    And the shield can be interrupted while its casting too, the Warrior's "Assault" Skill will interrupt the shield casting, sometimes even two or three times in a row. Any stun skills can stop them from putting up the shield.

    Also the shield isn't immune to everything, Vampire's "Dark Bonds" will make them unable to move or attack, and the Mages Ice Freeze will stop them from being able to do anything, not even move or attack. Mage's Transform will make them useless in Arena for a long time.

    The shield only has a 15 second cooldown at 4/4 where you have to be 76+ and full water, otherwise it will have a 20/25 second cooldown where it only lasts about 18 seconds, that 5 seconds with the shield off and still on cooldown.

    The shield only blocks 40% of incoming damage, and recovers an amount of Health equal to 6% of Max Mana when attacked.

    They may look OP, but that's usually because the character has really good gear or skills.

    Even if they can kite Warriors and Prots, each skill barely even does any damage. While kiting a Prot, one Chord of Water doesn't even dent them, it takes forever.

    Plus, Ice Wind slow effect only lasts 3 seconds, if the Bard stops to gather orbs or heal, the slow effect will go away, and the Prot reaches them quickly.
    Warriors can use their "Assault" Skill to get close again. Also, at 70+ Warriors get a lot of far range skills, like Sword Slash/Cyclone and an 18m range attack. Bard range is only 14m, and 12m for auto attack.
    Melee classes always can still reach them even if they look far away.

    The shield is a defense skill, not an attack. It's okay to nerf offensive attacks, but they're just defending themselves.
    Trust me, they're not overpowered.


    And don't forget to say *Water* Bards are overpowered. Wind and Light are super weak and easy to kill.

    And unlike other classes like Warriors or Assassins, people actually care about what tree they are. Being Water, it's harder to find people who will want you for instances. Everyone wants Wind/Light.
    Water has to sacrifice PvE for PvP.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] ~I very much enjoy this lovely game and wonderful people here~
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