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Pet Passive, Form, and Active Offense Idea

championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
edited September 2019 in Suggestions Box
Pet Masters are desired, there is no ands ifs or buts about it, but beyond the niche aspect of the game, are pretty useless for any major content beyond just a leveling character. Even the specialization does little to alleviate the problem pets have as far as the content is concerned. So, my suggestion is to offer up three new abilities aimed directly towards pet masters.

(addition)

The Pet Conundrum - The major problem with pets, currently, in CO is that you can have an unlimited number of them out which creates havoc for resources especially in intense encounters. My proposal is to categorize pets and set them up similar to PA toggles, in that you can only have one of each of those types active. In this case they would go as follows;

+ Scrapper - Scrapper pets would be mostly about dealing damage and that's about all they do. An example of this would be munitions bots and command animals.
+ Support - Support pets would primarily be aimed at supporting the player and/or the pets. A prime example of this would be support drones and ritual of radiant summoning.
+ Bruiser - A bruiser would be aimed at providing some form of CC, a heavy hitter and maybe some threat control to pull mobs away from the pet controller. An example of this would be attack toys and arctic beast.

Setting up this way would alleviate some of that. To further stipulate, other summonable pets should be limited to one, and perhaps have a shared cooldown, or at the very least if you try to summon another form of it while some already exist, the new summon replaces the old one. As far as devices, like sidekicks are concerned, limit to only one sidekick at a time, and pet devices like pheromones and the like. These pets should remain unaffected by these toggles as presented in the note down under this addendum.

(further addition)

On the point of blocking, I think this just needs to be nipped directly. If the player engages a block then the pets enter a block state and stop attacking. This should also help alleviate some issues with players just sitting back and blocking while pets do all the work that tends to be the common complaint with pet/minion builds.




Note - Controllable pet refers to pets that can actually be controlled with commands. Pets that are a byproduct of an effect or temporarily summoned, such as shadow pets, Teleiosaurus Pheromones, psionic manifestations, etc., would not be effected by these new passives.




Tactician - Hybrid Passive
You know how to lead your team into battle. Any controllable pet under your control gains a damage boost and damage absorb, which scales with super stats. In addition, 10% of the incoming damage the pet master takes is divided equally between all controllable pets. Rank 2 and 3 increase the damage boost and damage absorb to the pets, and adds an additional 5% to the damage division for a total of 20% at rank 3.

2 point advantage - Tactical Maneuvers - Any controllable pet under your control gains 40% resistance to Area of Effect damage. (This stacks with the similar effect in the Commander Specialization Tree).
3 point advantage - Bodyguard - The damage division with controllable pets is increased to 60%.
1 point advantage - Mastermind - 25% of the damage boost and damage absorb is now shared with allies on the team. This becomes 50% in Support role.

Controlled Chaos - Toggle - Form
When this form is activated, all controllable pets that are owned gain increased damage per stack of this form, and a small amount of healing strength. This scales based on presence. You gain one stack of Controlled Chaos every time your pet crits an attack. Energy gain scales to Intelligence.

Victory Surge - Active Offense
When this is activated, all controllable pets that are owned gain a damage boost. This also applies a break free to the user and pets.

2 point advantage - Vengeance - Both the controller and pets gain a surge of healing that also gives a mild HoT for 6 seconds.
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Post edited by championshewolf on

Comments

  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    Anything that boosts 'all' your pets has a tendency towards the blizzard of pets build, which is both unattractive and a resource hog. I'd suggest a strong boost with a low target cap (say, 3) instead of a weaker boost that affects all your pets. Also, a significant part of the problem with pets is that they don't block. I'd suggest something like:

    Sanctuary: 1p advantage on specific blocks (probably sorcery to start with)
    When activated, continuously applies Sanctuary to up to 3 pets you own within 50'. Sanctuary incapacitates the pet (cannot use powers), flags it as blocking, and gives it block type damage resistance.
  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    edited September 2019
    Well why I put the qualifier controllable pets in. The only way to limit it beyond that would be to set up the pets in a specific classification; such as bruiser, support and scrapper. You can only have one of each active at a time then. This would definitely limit the number of active pets, and temporary ones would have to be set to only one of that type can be out to. The other problem of course is things like Teleiosaurus Pheromones which create pets at random through use or just by being in combat. But then again with this passive set I specifically state these things won't be affected by these powers specifically and its strictly for pets that actually can be controlled.

    This would basically make the pets like the PA toggles at this point which I wouldn't be against but we would definitely need more to fill in certain areas. Or some would have to be changed completely. And then you have to look at the sidekicks and how to handle them to. Definitely would like to see more pet types added to the list and have an official "mastermind" character. It's just kind of ridiculous an entire play style is garbage right now and invalid in anything beyond niche, low level solo play.

    Actually let me add that as an addendum to the above post.
    Post edited by championshewolf on
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  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    edited September 2019
    Added pet tiers to the list, to help flesh it out more.

    The Pet Conundrum - The major problem with pets, currently, in CO is that you can have an unlimited number of them out which creates havoc for resources especially in intense encounters. My proposal is to categorize pets and set them up similar to PA toggles, in that you can only have one of each of those types active. In this case they would go as follows;

    + Scrapper - Scrapper pets would be mostly about dealing damage and that's about all they do. An example of this would be munitions bots and command animals.
    + Support - Support pets would primarily be aimed at supporting the player and/or the pets. A prime example of this would be support drones and ritual of radiant summoning.
    + Bruiser - A bruiser would be aimed at providing some form of CC, a heavy hitter and maybe some threat control to pull mobs away from the pet controller. An example of this would be attack toys and arctic beast.

    Setting up this way would alleviate some of that. To further stipulate, other summonable pets should be limited to one, and perhaps have a shared cooldown, or at the very least if you try to summon another form of it while some already exist, the new summon replaces the old one. As far as devices, like sidekicks are concerned, limit to only one sidekick at a time, and pet devices like pheromones and the like. These pets should remain unaffected by these toggles as presented in the note down under this addendum.
    Post edited by championshewolf on
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  • riveroceanriverocean Posts: 1,690 Arc User
    These are great suggestions.

    I do hope someone besides us players is reading this.
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  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    On the point of blocking, I think this just needs to be nipped directly. If the player engages a block then the pets enter a block state and stop attacking. This should also help alleviate some issues with players just sitting back and blocking while pets do all the work that tends to be the common complaint with pet/minion builds.
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    Cool idea. Applying the PA-style classification system to them is neat and solves the "giant swarm of pets" problem. The damage division is interesting too; makes it so that permanent pets would potentially have to be resummoned if you don't keep them healed. Smart to make the Form not give the player any damage bonus to keep it focused on the pets.

    Also like that it only effects controllable pets, so that uncontrolled pets retain the "attack stuff while you block" utility. I can see making a toon that mixes controlled and uncontrolled pets to great effect with this stuff.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    edited September 2019
    On the point of blocking, I think this just needs to be nipped directly. If the player engages a block then the pets enter a block state and stop attacking. This should also help alleviate some issues with players just sitting back and blocking while pets do all the work that tends to be the common complaint with pet/minion builds.
    The problem is that "pets start blocking when their owner starts blocking" will actually cause them to start blocking on their next AI tic, which might be a while, particularly since a lot of npc powers cannot be block canceled. A status effect applied by your block power evades those timing issues.

    As far as the sitting there passively while pets do the work, it seems like a lot of problems could be solved by just making pets not be passive dps.

    For example, one way of doing this is to add a tap effect. For example:

    The way a standard pet looks now is:

    Ritual of Ebon Summoning
    25 energy cost
    1.5 sec charge (1.5 min)
    0.67s activate time

    Creates a Ritual Circle and summons a Daemon to fight for you. Leaving the circle for too long will cause it to fail, and the Incarnation will disappear.

    The daemon will attack foes at range, using Fire Strike to do 51 Fire Damage (Base). It will also periodically attack with Fireball, dealing 253 Fire Damage (Base)....

    Real dps on a reasonably geared level 40 support with aura of ebon destruction and rank 2 with unbound ritual was about 250 against a powerhouse dummy, of which 50 was dark lightning. A petmaster form that counts as a weak bonus (12%/stack, like the dps bonus from compassion, but applies to pets as well as its owner) would push that to around 350.

    Now, here's a version with a tap effect (extra effects in italics)
    Ritual of Ebon Summoning
    25 energy cost
    1.5 sec charge (1.5 min)
    0.87s activate time

    On tap, if you have a Daemon, applies Infused to it for 3-6s (depending on charge time), and if you are targeting a foe, gives it an Attack command. On full charge, creates a Ritual Circle, summons a Daemon to fight for you, then applies the tap effect. Leaving the circle for too long will cause it to fail, and the Incarnation will disappear.

    Infused is an Enchantment that applies a 400% base damage bonus to your Daemon, and allows it to use special attacks.

    The daemon will attack foes at range, using Fire Strike to do 51 Fire Damage (Base). If Infused, it will also periodically attack with Fireball, dealing 253 Fire Damage (Base)....

    A 400% damage bonus for 3s on a base dps of 350 is +4200 damage, and it would be possible to rotate 3 pets keeping them all infused (you can't actually use 0.83s powers every 0.83s, because of latency), each of them doing 1750 dps for a total of 5250 dps. That's a ... plausible number for a build that's about this invested in pets.
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 5,424 Arc User
    Eh, if the current dev team can't get Eido, personal growth magnifiers and weapons auras working properly I can't even imagine them tackling something that sounds this complicated.
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  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    jaazaniah1 wrote: »
    Eh, if the current dev team can't get Eido, personal growth magnifiers and weapons auras working properly I can't even imagine them tackling something that sounds this complicated.

    A lot of assumptions in that statement.
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited September 2019
    jaazaniah1 wrote: »
    Eh, if the current dev team can't get Eido, personal growth magnifiers and weapons auras working properly I can't even imagine them tackling something that sounds this complicated.

    I'm sure there's a logical fallacy in there somewhere... false cause maybe? hmmm...could be anecdotal... Nope I've got it! The Texas Sharpshooter! Saying that because this small group of cherry picked things haven't happened means this couldn't be done. Especially fallacious when you consider all the complex things you didn't mention. Nailed it!
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 5,424 Arc User
    What is being suggested in this thread looks very complex. I remain unconvinced that it can be done given the problems they have had with fixing things that look simpler.
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  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    jaazaniah1 wrote: »
    What is being suggested in this thread looks very complex. I remain unconvinced that it can be done given the problems they have had with fixing things that look simpler.

    Again your assumptions are impressive.
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited September 2019
    I'm tempted to say personal incredulity...

    Only part that looks complicated to me might be the classification of the pets. Then again, we already have systems in place that will unsummon pets of a given category if you summon another one in the same category, so maybe not even that. Otherwise it's all basically just doing stuff that the Commander specs do, other than the damage division, and that's really just resisting more damage on the player and then applying that resisted damage to the pets. Overall this doesn't look any more complicated than any other task in CO - which is to say, it's all complicated.
    Post edited by spinnytop on
  • phasestarphasestar Posts: 116 Arc User
    Great ideas in this thread, would love to see thematic pet builds be more viable in all end-game situations.
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 7,065 Arc User
    I don't think this looks complex.

    I think the current way pets work or don't perform is a complex disaster.

    There has to be some way to control the horde of pets and I very much like the limiting of pets in this proposal and the pet classification.

    I don't even need to say much more, since I really do like this proposal, especially the bit about blocking.

    I also liked Pantagruel's suggestion about incantations.

    I have always wanted the "Defensive Towers" that the old gadgeteering spoke about in the flavour text, and I think if there was some Dev time to invest into making pets a viable option, I'd really support that.

    I do think and hope that Sigils in particular are considered Enchantments or Curses as a category of Summon. So "Summoned AoE Enchantment" or "Summoned AoE Curse" and don't count towards pets.

    Equally...I'd love to see tech variants of sigils:

    Sigils of Ebon Weakness - Enervating Pulse Generators

    Sigils of Arcane Runes - Proximity Mines

    Sigils of Destruction - Electric Pulse Generators

    Sigils of Radiant Sanctuary - Stealth Field Generators

    My only 'issue' with the proposal (or perhaps a lack of understanding):

    "Tactician - Hybrid Passive
    You know how to lead your team into battle. Any controllable pet under your control gains a damage boost and damage absorb, which scales with super stats. In addition, 10% of the incoming damage the pet master takes is divided equally between all controllable pets. Rank 2 and 3 increase the damage boost and damage absorb to the pets, and adds an additional 5% to the damage division for a total of 20% at rank 3."

    Questions:

    1) Does this mean that you as a pet master gain nothing in terms of self defense or damage boosting? Because I've always personally envisioned a pet master passive which grants some damage boosting and combines elements of: IDF, Medical Nanites & AoRP (Absorb/AoE self and other Healing/Resistance boosting) and you could have advantages which boost aspects of it at the cost of other elements within the passive for self and other.

    2) When you think of this passive existing in game, how much damage do you think a build using "Munibots, Artic Beast & Ritual of Radiant Summoning" should be putting out? In DPS terms (ideally).


  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    edited September 2019
    To answer your question the pet master gains nothing. The only defense the pet master has is from the damage division which will take 10% (rank 1) and divided it equally between all controllable pets. This means if you take 500 damage, 50 of it will be split between say 3 pets. This is increases to 20% at rank 3.

    Pet masters are relying on their pet to do the damage and save them the pet master should be supporting their pets in the process. It creates a feedback loop, in essence. This is why the special buff can increase the damage division, but why it is a 3 point advantage to, because it is quite powerful.

    And of course the further buff of area of effect resistance, assuming it's a flat resistance and not the wonky resistance numbers presented by CO, would give 90% using the commander specialty. I do think area of effect resistance should be core to a passive like this, however, but a case for abuse can be made so it was something I just came up with.

    Ideally, if a pet master is using all three pets with a damage power themselves the total should come out to equal a similar player in that particular role. If I had my way there would be a specific role for pet master, just like a specific role for CC, because throwing it all in support just does not do it justice.
    Post edited by championshewolf on
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  • buggyhexapodbuggyhexapod Posts: 54 Arc User
    edited September 2019
    I love this idea. I really appreciate it for the "pet master" ideas like this being brought forward for the developers to see.

    I mean just recently, they have released a new archetype that is definitely not a "pet master", but one can hope for them to get the message, sooner than later.

    Definitely sooner.

    Edit: I mean, i had bought the lifetime subscription for this game years ago, just so i could play as a pet master, but the lack of a robust, working system really breaks it for me. So they should really look into this.

  • riveroceanriverocean Posts: 1,690 Arc User
    I really like this thread! There's nothing wrong with making suggestions. The worst case scenario is a suggestion will not be implemented. The best outcome is someone will take it seriously and work on it.

    But back to the suggestion. Most of what's been proposed could probably be worked out, with already existing assets, including art/FX/animations.
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  • buggyhexapodbuggyhexapod Posts: 54 Arc User
    Bump. I hope that we get some responses from the developers about this idea. Or some progress in regards to it.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    Bump. I hope that we get some responses from the developers about this idea. Or some progress in regards to it.

    You won't, cause people would go nuts.
  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    Bump. I hope that we get some responses from the developers about this idea. Or some progress in regards to it.

    It unlikely will get a response. I don't expect devs to directly reply either. It's just a bad habit of gamers in general, this forum in particular, to take anything talked about or commented on as some sort of admission to things being exactly as the players think will happen or some evidence of a grand conspiracy. Even if the dev says "I like this idea" there will be a lot of people that would just interpret it as them saying "this is a sure fire thing and it will be worked on immediately."

    I won't pretend what I am suggesting would be easy to implement if even possible at all in CO's current code matrix without some dedicated engineer to do the programming. It's mostly a suggestion to bring pets up to par, since there are a few major issues with them keeping them from being upgraded and being viable in content that just obliterates them on purpose.
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  • darqaura2darqaura2 Posts: 932 Arc User
    Bump. I hope that we get some responses from the developers about this idea. Or some progress in regards to it.

    It unlikely will get a response. I don't expect devs to directly reply either. It's just a bad habit of gamers in general, this forum in particular, to take anything talked about or commented on as some sort of admission to things being exactly as the players think will happen or some evidence of a grand conspiracy. Even if the dev says "I like this idea" there will be a lot of people that would just interpret it as them saying "this is a sure fire thing and it will be worked on immediately."

    I won't pretend what I am suggesting would be easy to implement if even possible at all in CO's current code matrix without some dedicated engineer to do the programming. It's mostly a suggestion to bring pets up to par, since there are a few major issues with them keeping them from being upgraded and being viable in content that just obliterates them on purpose.

    This looks clean as heck. Hopefully a dev looks at this when they have some down time.
  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,375 Arc User
    edited October 2019
    darqaura2 wrote: »
    Bump. I hope that we get some responses from the developers about this idea. Or some progress in regards to it.

    It unlikely will get a response. I don't expect devs to directly reply either. It's just a bad habit of gamers in general, this forum in particular, to take anything talked about or commented on as some sort of admission to things being exactly as the players think will happen or some evidence of a grand conspiracy. Even if the dev says "I like this idea" there will be a lot of people that would just interpret it as them saying "this is a sure fire thing and it will be worked on immediately."

    I won't pretend what I am suggesting would be easy to implement if even possible at all in CO's current code matrix without some dedicated engineer to do the programming. It's mostly a suggestion to bring pets up to par, since there are a few major issues with them keeping them from being upgraded and being viable in content that just obliterates them on purpose.

    This looks clean as heck. Hopefully a dev looks at this when they have some down time.

    Thanks. However there is the work involved. There would undoubtedly have to be some re-categorizing of the pets as they are, on top of that some extra work on just summonable pets so that they override existing ones if changed to what I am suggesting above.

    Then of course there would undoubtedly have to be other changes to get them in line with the codification set forth, such as giving those pets new powers, or just filling out other power set rosters to fill in the gaps. For instance, Gadgeteer is currently the only power set that can field all three pet roles as I codify above, with the other possible exception, if changes are made, being sorcery. It won't be so smooth or streamline and I am sure there are many other issues to tackle over even if this were something the devs thought they could do.

    And then there are those who will want stylized pet types or other options entirely. I mean as interesting as it is, I am sure many would prefer another bot in line with the munitions bot for a bruiser instead of attack toys. And there are still others who would want minions/thugs instead of any of the options currently presented now. Or some who would prefer elemental style or demon pets, etc. There's a lot of work ahead than just simple definition changes. And probably, like most other power reviews, this would require new powers to be added which means new art to.
    Post edited by championshewolf on
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,915 Arc User
    Maybe a special block power that causes your pets to block?

    Also... I don't see it as a bad thing if your pets can fight for you. I mean, summoning them is using a power...
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