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Did Power Revamps Slow Down?

spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 14,791 Arc User
edited December 2018 in Champions Online Discussion
So lately many people have been feeling like framework revamps have slowed down and that it's taken an unusually long time for new ones to come out. I wanted to find out if this was true, and if it was just how true it is. So I went digging through old PTS patch notes, specifically looking for the first time that patch notes were posted for a given revamp. Here are my results:

Heavy Weapons_________________March 2016
Bestial__________________________May 2016
Whole Bunch____________________July 2016
Sorcery_________________________September 2016
PA/Laser Sword_________________November 2016
Munitions_______________________January 2017
TK______________________________June 2017
Electric_________________________Augest 2017
Fire____________________________November 2017
Unarmed_______________________January 2018
Single Blade____________________June 2018


Note that the "whole bunch" entry refers to that one time that we got like 3 pages worth of power changes to a great number of power frameworks all at once, and that it also includes the things that Darkness and Infernal got, which really nails home that those were not revamps, which is why I'm not listing them separately. I'm also including it because of just how big it was, and because it added a lot of changes to things that affected all frameworks simultaneously, so I would say it effectively counts as a revamp of its own. So let's throw some numbers around.

2016 - 6 revamps - 1 revamp per 2 months
2017 - 4 revamps - 1 revamp per 3 months
2018 - 2 revamps - 1 revamp per 6 months


Yup o3o that's a pretty decisive downward trend, especially considering we're only halfway through the sets. However it does put a question mark on the theory that the subscription change caused things to slow down. 2016 also brought us the cosmic revamp, the qliphotic warzone, TA, and the nightmare invasion. 2017 brought us High Noon. It's clear that the downward trend in activity had already started in 2017, and by the time 2018 hit things were already in low gear. We had already gone many months without a power review by the time the subscriptions change hit and overall the year was already looking like it was being devoted mainly to updating events.

So yes, power reviews have definitely slowed significantly, but the reason why is still likely unknown to us. Maybe they decided to devote a year to "under the hood" changes. Maybe they changed their process and are spending more time cooking things before putting them on PTS. Maybe DOOOOOOOOOOM O3O. Or some other possibility.​​
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Comments

  • colonelwingcolonelwing Posts: 181 Arc User
    Fighting claws + dual blades should be their top priority, because they have yet to remove the inherent rush buff from Dragon's claw and Dragon's wrath. Maybe they have it in the works? A fix to Shadow strike (highly bugged) would be great, too.
  • Fighting claws + dual blades should be their top priority, because they have yet to remove the inherent rush buff from Dragon's claw and Dragon's wrath. Maybe they have it in the works? A fix to Shadow strike (highly bugged) would be great, too.

    As much as I want certain other powers to exist, I agree that claws needs the most attention, with Might being second and Archery as a possible third.

    I have Shadow Strike, why do you say is it bugged?
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 14,791 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    Fighting claws + dual blades should be their top priority, because they have yet to remove the inherent rush buff from Dragon's claw and Dragon's wrath. Maybe they have it in the works? A fix to Shadow strike (highly bugged) would be great, too.

    While I might agree, it has been stated that those sets are not next. I say I might agree, because an argument can and has been made that there are sets that need attention way more.​​
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 3,026 Arc User
    Huh. I hadn't tabulated the data, but I've been feeling like there has been quite a bit of slow down this last year in revamps and content in general. Almost feels like dev time is being put elsewhere now. Really hard to say without communication from our dev team, and I've no idea if they are allowed to say anything about the slow down.
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  • spinnytop wrote: »
    Fighting claws + dual blades should be their top priority, because they have yet to remove the inherent rush buff from Dragon's claw and Dragon's wrath. Maybe they have it in the works? A fix to Shadow strike (highly bugged) would be great, too.

    While I might agree, it has been stated that those sets are not next. I say I might agree, because an argument can and has been made that there are sets that need attention way more.​​

    If claws isn't next, I hope it's Earth because that powerset is severely underwhelming compared to the earth powers from the other superhero MMO.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,426 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Fighting claws + dual blades should be their top priority, because they have yet to remove the inherent rush buff from Dragon's claw and Dragon's wrath. Maybe they have it in the works? A fix to Shadow strike (highly bugged) would be great, too.
    While I might agree, it has been stated that those sets are not next. I say I might agree, because an argument can and has been made that there are sets that need attention way more.​​
    If claws isn't next, I hope it's Earth because that powerset is severely underwhelming compared to the earth powers from the other superhero MMO.
    DCUO has earth powers? I don't remember any of those.
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  • avianosavianos Posts: 4,483 Arc User
    DCUO has earth powers? I don't remember any of those.
    Time to spy on Rival MMO
    It does
    ​​
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  • baelogventurebaelogventure Posts: 484 Arc User
    Tier list for revamp status.

    Emergency Tier - Claws
    Priority Tier - Earth, Archery
    In Need Tier - Wind, Force
    QOL Tier - Telepathy, Might, Gadget, Dual-Blades, Celestial
  • chaosdrgnz43chaosdrgnz43 Posts: 1,359 Arc User
    Maybe the next set is something Kaiz doesn't really like and that's why it's taking so long.

    Or she's being postponed by the higher ups.
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  • No, the superhero MMO that no longer exists.
  • avianosavianos Posts: 4,483 Arc User
    No, the superhero MMO that no longer exists.
    It's ok, you can say City of Heroes
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  • beezeezebeezeeze Posts: 910 Arc User
    yeah, who doesn't love cox?

  • shadowolf505shadowolf505 Posts: 620 Arc User
    You mean the MMO zone always talks about besides Sidekicks Online (DCUO) ? :^)
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  • beezeeze wrote: »
    yeah, who doesn't love cox?

    Devs cause whenever I say it here on the forum my comment is deleted.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 14,791 Arc User
    beezeeze wrote: »
    yeah, who doesn't love cox?

    Devs cause whenever I say it here on the forum my comment is deleted.

    You um... hm... there was a uh... there was a bit of cheekiness intended in beeze's comment I believe... sort of a winky face situation.​​
  • lezard21lezard21 Posts: 1,193 Arc User
    s-l300.jpg
    requested by @spinnytop​​
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 14,791 Arc User
    edited December 2018
  • lezard21lezard21 Posts: 1,193 Arc User
    All right now for non troll post
    Tier list for revamp status.

    Emergency Tier - Claws
    Priority Tier - Earth, Archery
    In Need Tier - Wind, Force
    QOL Tier - Telepathy, Might, Gadget, Dual-Blades, Celestial

    I kinda agree with most of this, but would make a few changes:

    Priority Tier - Claws, Earth
    In Need Tier - Archery, Wind, Celestial, Telepathy
    QOL Tier- Gadget, Dual Blades, Darkness, Might, Force

    Claws and Earth both are priority but for very different reasons.

    Claws is a set that has been overperforming for the longest while. It is a mistery why it was left alone for so long when PA was immediately revised when it was overperforming. Dragon Claw builds, even when done wrong, can hold their own against optimized Ranged DPS builds, the damage vs charge time is way overpowered, and it has no energy problems. Nerfing Dragon Claw however (which is what I interpret Stone meant with Emergency Tier) would leave the FC tree in a state similar to the QOL tier, ie. the FC tree only has what 3 or 4 powers? none of which have synergy with each other and one of them having an inbuilt harmful mechanic for raids. If FC is tackled at all I'd rather it's done properly by adding a debuff, some manner of AoE/Utility and an Ultimate.

    Earth on the other hand...for the longest time I thought either Gadgeteer or Archery were the sets in most need of a revamp, but after recently messing around with the Earth tree trying to make a DPS...it's an absolute and complete mess. It's just a disaster from conception alone. It's only saving grace is Quicksand, and even then there are other equivalent more mobile options available.

    If we were to stick to in-frame only, then Earth currently:
    -has half it's powers tagged as melee (meaning they scale with Str) and the other half, including it's strongest attack Cave In, tagged as ranged (meaning they scale with Ego.)
    -has a form (Enraged) that increases the damage of Melee attacks primarily and ranged attacks by a lot less
    -has no EU, nor does any of it's powers proc any other existing EU (with the exception of MSA), and it can't make good use of Unstoppable due to it incresing Melee and Bleeds foremost
    -it's block has no additional effect by itself (only minor synergy with Fissure)
    -it has no Ultimate
    -if we were to assume it's intended as a Tanking set, it possess no additional threat generating potential, and the only Tanking utility skill it has, Fissure, is very underwhelming

    Thus, if you want to make a semi-reliable DPS build you have to:
    -Stack Ego or Int
    -Take either Concentration or Chilled Form
    -Take either MSA or an attack that would proc another EU
    -Take NW (cause Earth Form is very lackluster and follows the progression curve of Ranged Passives) or Quarry
    -Take a frigging grenade or pistol power or run up close and elbow slam/kick/punch to apply a crushing debuff since the set doesn't have one

    All options that are not intuitive at all with what you would expect from a powerset from the BRICK tree.

    The In Need Tier all need their damage brought up to what's currently the meta standard

    The QOL Tier needs to get some additional powers to vary the options available a bit, and perphaps also work on the synergy of the set.​​
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  • avianosavianos Posts: 4,483 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    lezard21 wrote: »
    If we were to stick to in-frame only, then Earth currently:
    -has half it's powers tagged as melee (meaning they scale with Str) and the other half, including it's strongest attack Cave In, tagged as ranged (meaning they scale with Ego.)
    -has a form (Enraged) that increases the damage of Melee attacks primarily and ranged attacks by a lot less
    -has no EU, nor does any of it's powers proc any other existing EU (with the exception of MSA), and it can't make good use of Unstoppable due to it incresing Melee and Bleeds foremost
    -it's block has no additional effect by itself (only minor synergy with Fissure)
    -it has no Ultimate
    -if we were to assume it's intended as a Tanking set, it possess no additional threat generating potential, and the only Tanking utility skill it has, Fissure, is very underwhelming

    Thus, if you want to make a semi-reliable DPS build you have to:
    -Stack Ego or Int
    -Take either Concentration or Chilled Form
    -Take either MSA or an attack that would proc another EU
    -Take NW (cause Earth Form is very lackluster and follows the progression curve of Ranged Passives) or Quarry
    -Take a frigging grenade or pistol power or run up close and elbow slam/kick/punch to apply a crushing debuff since the set doesn't have one
    What is interesting thing to notice is that EVERYTHING you said about EARTH (minus the melee) also applies on FORCE
    Granded FORCE has actually GOOD DPS thanks to Force Cascade (and only FC )

    Just replace Earth Form with Kinetic Manipulation which is still the WORST passive in the game since it penaltize it's own Alpha Strike attack, everything stays the same
    Force needs to take Passive, Energy Unlock, Debuffs from other powerframes because nothing in it's own powerframe works

    But yeah Earth still sucks and is full of sadness​​
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  • deadman20deadman20 Posts: 1,487 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    So yes, power reviews have definitely slowed significantly, but the reason why is still likely unknown to us. Maybe they decided to devote a year to "under the hood" changes. Maybe they changed their process and are spending more time cooking things before putting them on PTS. Maybe DOOOOOOOOOOM O3O. Or some other possibility.

    There has been a lot of "under the hood" changes this year, so I imagine that's been their focus. Cleaning things up and optimizing will likely make it easier to pump out the more player-facing changes like event content and power reviews. Lately there hasn't been much, but I feel like this is all to gear up for something bigger. Only time will tell what that something is though.

    I'll remain an optimist for CO. I know I wouldn't be fixing things up unless we were planning long-term. So, let's see what they've got in store for us, yeah?​​
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 14,791 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    That's my thinking. They kinda got fed up with the whole "change a thing, break ten other things" meta so they decided to straighten out some spaghetti so that future changes would proceed more efficiently. Andrithal alone tickles the imagination as to what they're going to do with what they learned from that experiment - I wouldn't be surprised if 2019 is the year of dungeon updates.

    One thing is for sure though, all this under the hood stuff needs to lead to the the power updates picking up the pace again next year. Otherwise, at the current rate, it's gonna take like 6 years to finish them n_n My hope is that during this year they were also spending time brainstorming about future power updates and basically have all of them planned out already. Would love to see another "Whole Bunch" entry in that list for 2019 :D

    As for why they're not doing Claws/Dual Blades power sets sooner rather than later... I have only tinfoil hat theories on that u3u to me it just seems like such an obvious meta to smash. They're also the last two melee sets so the idea that they're preserving them for their forms doesn't make sense either. Concentration/Chilled Form sticking around until the last ranged sets are done makes sense since there are ranged sets without their own form that still need them, but if they revamped claws and dual blades that'd be it for melee. Only exceptions are Chainsaw Gauntlet and Earth, but the former has Single Blade's form, and the latter... is Earth u3u​​
  • Haha, you think the game will still be around in 6 years.

    I honestly don't care about the removal of subscriptions or updates to old broken dungeon missions or additions to alerts (like the terrible Save the Earth that was crammed into Vigilance for no extra Questionite) or updates to Eido that everyone mopes about. The thing we spend the most amount of time doing in this game is using attack powers to defeat villains, and since i've joined all my characters had their abilities nerfed while we haven't received a unique powerset addition. (just a rehash of existing powers made into new ATs)

    Power sets are the thing we use the most, so as far as i'm concerned they deserve the highest amount of attention. The other superhero MMO had Beast Mastery, Staff Fighting, Water Blast, and Nature Affinity sets all made in 2012 before it closed. Four unique sets created in one year. The game's been dead 6 years and still had more powers to choose from than CO does today. But I guess kitten action figures take priority. :/
  • shadowolf505shadowolf505 Posts: 620 Arc User
    I think people should just be patient :o
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  • avianosavianos Posts: 4,483 Arc User
    I think people should just be patient :o
    I have been patient 4 years now, but this year was the worst for Power Progression
    especially when you realized how far behind unrevamped powerframes are
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    Playing as EVERYTHING but Superheroes (BUT they are my Heroes) Eternal Silver since 1 February 2011
    Currently playing with 72+ Characters (7 ATs, 65 FFs) Loving all of them, ALTitis for Life
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 14,791 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    Haha, you think the game will still be around in 6 years.

    Don't think I actually said that... so the question is.. what are you laughing at? o3o


    avianos wrote: »
    I have been patient 4 years now, but this year was the worst for Power Progression
    especially when you realized how far behind unrevamped powerframes are

    However, with all the under the hood stuff, it's entirely possible that this year saw some of the most important updates to the game in many years. We complain about "spaghetti code" and "the engine can't handle it" and all those other memes we regurgitate year after year, but then they address that stuff and suddenly people wanna act like it's a waste of time o3o​​
  • Maybe the next set is something Kaiz doesn't really like and that's why it's taking so long.

    Or she's being postponed by the higher ups.


    Force and Might being done close to Captain Marvel's release could be awesome. We got the aquatic lockbox with the TotallyNotOceanMaster pieces in time for Aquaman (which is just great, B-movie fun).

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  • soulforgersoulforger Posts: 1,605 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Haha, you think the game will still be around in 6 years.

    Don't think I actually said that... so the question is.. what are you laughing at? o3o


    avianos wrote: »
    I have been patient 4 years now, but this year was the worst for Power Progression
    especially when you realized how far behind unrevamped powerframes are

    However, with all the under the hood stuff, it's entirely possible that this year saw some of the most important updates to the game in many years. We complain about "spaghetti code" and "the engine can't handle it" and all those other memes we regurgitate year after year, but then they address that stuff and suddenly people wanna act like it's a waste of time o3o​​

    You cannot please everyone. Which is plain as day here in this thread with people complaining about how they done their updates. It was obvious to me this year they focused on under the hood stuff, which was needed, along with updating events.

    The people complain because what they wanted changed/added/updated was not touched.

    As for power sets that I really want to see updated, well, I have no tiers, they are all basically on the "NEED TO IMPROVE" list for me, even some of the ones they already did. I see problems with all the sets, some are just worse off than others.
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 3,026 Arc User
    Have they actually said they are doing anything like this though? The devs are usually silent (for whatever reasons) about what they are doing until just before it happens. It would be nice if they are gearing up for some big or small improvements, but all we can do is wait, hope and see at this point.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    However, with all the under the hood stuff, it's entirely possible that this year saw some of the most important updates to the game in many years. We complain about "spaghetti code" and "the engine can't handle it" and all those other memes we regurgitate year after year, but then they address that stuff and suddenly people wanna act like it's a waste of time o3o​​

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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,426 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    jaazaniah1 wrote: »
    Have they actually said they are doing anything like this though? The devs are usually silent (for whatever reasons) about what they are doing until just before it happens. It would be nice if they are gearing up for some big or small improvements, but all we can do is wait, hope and see at this point.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    However, with all the under the hood stuff, it's entirely possible that this year saw some of the most important updates to the game in many years. We complain about "spaghetti code" and "the engine can't handle it" and all those other memes we regurgitate year after year, but then they address that stuff and suddenly people wanna act like it's a waste of time o3o​​
    Pretty sure Spinny's talking about stuff like tweaking boss fights to be less laggy. Also Kais has been rebuilding the old events to fix bugs and generally make them better.
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