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Are you happy with the new Max 35 Cap ?

Today we were pretty much smacked in the face by this new change that reduced maxplayer cap from 50 to 35 per zone, what this means is that it is significantly harder to get the correct people for cosmic bosses, and for players to get the Destroid mission in Ren Cen completed.

Not every player watches chat or even has chat up, so taking for granted that we can ask EVERYONE who isn't fighting cosmics to leave the zone.. is stupid to begin with. Plenty of players who are doing Cosmics are also RL programmers, and their opinion is that this change and absolutely nothing to do with the performance and the no-hit big.
I myself has never ever had issues with lag at cosmics, my only issue has been the memorycrashes.

And the worst is that this change was NEVER taken up with the players and discussed before implemented, so now there is alot of really disappointed cosmic adventurers out there.

What are your thoughts on this matter?. Personally i'm not surprised we get shafted once again... but i'm disappointed.

Are you happy with the new Max 35 Cap ? 63 votes

Yes , i don't really mind.
46%
pantagruel01baelogventurejaazaniah1blazer2001biffsmackwellbluhmandeadman20bringmeaslabnbkxslezard21spinnytopsandukutupuchaosdrgnz43markhawkmantheravenforceroughbearmattachkamokamithecrusaderxavianosxrazamax 29 votes
No, i see no reason for it and want the 50 Cap back.
41%
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I don't do Cosmics so i don't really care.
12%
soulforgerpsychicslugn3llcriswolf09commandocubcapspectacularmagpieuk2014folv#5303 8 votes
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Comments

  • chaosdrgnz43chaosdrgnz43 Posts: 1,674 Arc User
    Yes , i don't really mind.
    It's a temporary fix. They will get around it eventually.
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    edited April 2018
    Yes , i don't really mind.
    My experience is that cosmics with more than 30 people are horror shows anyway, and it's not like two zones can't be done in parallel. It means we need somewhat more specialist roles, but we're still talking 4-5 out of 35 (or perhaps 30 if others are in zone).
  • roughbearmattachroughbearmattach Posts: 4,784 Arc User
    Yes , i don't really mind.
    Two zones doubles your chances of getting at least one run, and often means getting two.
    I think it's generally for the good.
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  • No, i see no reason for it and want the 50 Cap back.
    2 failed dinos and 1 failed kiga this change is not good especially for any newbies joining cosmics
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    edited April 2018
    Yes , i don't really mind.

    2 failed dinos and 1 failed kiga this change is not good especially for any newbies joining cosmics

    50 players is not easier than 35 players. Cosmic week always leads to more failures, because it increases the number of people at fights who don't know the fight.
  • beezeezebeezeeze Posts: 927 Arc User
    kaizerin said:


    • We've lowered the zone caps on Canada and Monster Island to 35 to address various combat issues that have been escalating over the past few months. This isn't the solution we want to settle on, but should address many of the issue players have been facing for now. If we feel the lower cap is causing more issues than addressing, we'll consider raising it back up.
    ​​
    Relax they are working on trying to fix this. Also it is for Canada and Monster Island only so this has nothing to do with the Destroid open mission in MC.

  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,633 Arc User
    Yes , i don't really mind.

    2 failed dinos and 1 failed kiga this change is not good especially for any newbies joining cosmics

    Cosmic week always has more wipes than regular Cosmics.
  • lezard21lezard21 Posts: 1,510 Arc User
    edited April 2018
    Yes , i don't really mind.
    If you see no reason for the zone cap reduction then you either don't care about Cosmics or don't run them enough, so you don't have a say in the matter.

    It would be the equivalent of me complaining that Vanity devices were turned off inside Caprice when I never go to Caprice and the vanity devices annoyed people RPing.

    The zone cap reduction is a temp fix to the very frequent "Hits not registering" issue that caused Kiga to last forever (if people died you couldn't outdps the heal with half the hits not registering) and Dino checks to fail despite having more than enough DPS.

    Also, this topic was not discussed with the playerbase. It was THE PLAYERBASE that brought this topic up to the devs in multiple threads, the most recent one started by me

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/championsonline#/discussion/1210854/current-state-of-cosmics-a-rant-thread-the-13th
  • jonesing4jonesing4 Posts: 800 Arc User
    It does seem like it would’ve been better to start this change sometime that wasn’t cosmic week.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    Yes , i don't really mind.
    jonesing4 said:

    It does seem like it would’ve been better to start this change sometime that wasn’t cosmic week.

    Cosmic week increases the number of people at cosmics, and thus increases the rate of problems. If a fix is needed, cosmic week is exactly when it's needed.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,915 Arc User
    Yes , i don't really mind.

    jonesing4 said:

    It does seem like it would’ve been better to start this change sometime that wasn’t cosmic week.

    Cosmic week increases the number of people at cosmics, and thus increases the rate of problems. If a fix is needed, cosmic week is exactly when it's needed.
    Heck, Kais might have given us cosmic week BECAUSE she wanted to test this fix as hard as possible.
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited April 2018
    Yes , i don't really mind.
    You're missing an option on the poll: Yes, I think it's fantastic and I hope it stays forever! \o/

    2 failed dinos and 1 failed kiga this change is not good especially for any newbies joining cosmics

    I take it this is your first Monster Week event? The fails aren't cause of the new zone limit.
  • jonesing4jonesing4 Posts: 800 Arc User
    > @pantagruel01 said:
    >
    > Cosmic week increases the number of people at cosmics, and thus increases the rate of problems. If a fix is needed, cosmic week is exactly when it's needed.

    I would think you’d want to test a fairly significant change in normal conditions first, instead of letting people try to get used to something new in the most stressful circumstances possible (cosmic week). Giving it a few weeks before doing a monster week would probably reduce some screeching and confusion.
  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,739 Arc User
    edited April 2018
    Yes , i don't really mind.

    50 players is not easier than 35 players. Cosmic week always leads to more failures, because it increases the number of people at fights who don't know the fight.

    This is my experience. Take the time to try and educate people before the fight starts. If you just go all gung-ho into it thinking it'll be another easy run, you're gonna get spanked.

    Also, I'm sure it's easy to play armchair developer and say it should be an easy fix. Until you've got a person whose job it is to code sitting there looking at the actual code, I wouldn't make any assumptions. If it's a band-aid fix, it's because that's what they can do for now, not because they're being willfully negligent.
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  • leuchadegoutiereleuchadegoutiere Posts: 136 Arc User
    edited April 2018
    No, i see no reason for it and want the 50 Cap back.
    Well, I had the rule not to take part in forum, but this change really irritated me to step on.

    I didn't experienced more than 2 zones with the lowered cap, hence, not increased opportunities to do cosmics. It's even worse, because with the lowered cap, it decreased this chance. (70 places instead of 100)

    While with the 50 cap I was able to do 6 cosmics during evening euro time (which correspond to morning in West Coast and we are usually able to open 2 zones at those times), I was unable to do so with the lowered cap. And there was still *only* 6 opportunities.

    Even if we were able to open more zones, it would face off some problems we already have with only 1 or 2 zones : a lowered cap doesn't mean raids are easier and faster (I'm putting aside that during cosmic event, newcomers are most likely all around, and I consider the situation of this change would stay), which means it would take even longer to reach your cosmic cap if you don't manage to get in the next zone. And last but not least, I'm (we are ?) experiencing a depletion of (competent ?) key roles. I've never been forced to play a key role more than ever since the past 2-3 weeks to help a raid happen.


    As such, I, for my part, don't experience *any* improvement in my gaming experience with this change, and I'm avoiding cosmics as much as possible since yerterday :|
    Post edited by leuchadegoutiere on
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,915 Arc User
    Yes , i don't really mind.

    50 players is not easier than 35 players. Cosmic week always leads to more failures, because it increases the number of people at fights who don't know the fight.

    This is my experience. Take the time to try and educate people before the fight starts. If you just go all gung-ho into it thinking it'll be another easy run, you're gonna get spanked.

    Also, I'm sure it's easy to play armchair developer and say it should be an easy fix. Until you've got a person whose job it is to code sitting there looking at the actual code, I wouldn't make any assumptions. If it's a band-aid fix, it's because that's what they can do for now, not because they're being willfully negligent.
    Yeah, changing the zone cap is SUPER quick and easy. Mucking with how the game calculates damage to make it work faster? lol no. THAT is pretty much the definition of a non-trivial fix.
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  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 5,424 Arc User
    Yes , i don't really mind.
    Fewer than 15 people can take out each cosmic in 10 minutes if it's a good crew. More players does not equate to a greater chance of success or a faster run.
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  • darqaura2darqaura2 Posts: 932 Arc User
    Yes , i don't really mind.
    I think the change is a good one. They can always tweak (as they said they would) later.
  • roughbearmattachroughbearmattach Posts: 4,784 Arc User
    Yes , i don't really mind.

    And last but not least, I'm (we are ?) experiencing a depletion of (competent ?) key roles. I've never been forced to play a key role more than ever since the past 2-3 weeks to help a raid happen.

    No one is ever forced to play a key role. If you like DPS, just stay DPS. No problem.

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  • leuchadegoutiereleuchadegoutiere Posts: 136 Arc User
    edited April 2018
    No, i see no reason for it and want the 50 Cap back.
    What's the point on arguing that ? The key role depletion is the topic of the sentence, not my feelings about having to play them x)
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  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 5,424 Arc User
    Yes , i don't really mind.
    The main reason key roles are depleted at the moment is because there are twice as many runs. Relatively few people want to tank, even fewer want to CC. Most like mindless dps roles. Once all the players who play tanks and CCers are capped they have no reason to go to cosmics anymore. I think the devs hope that players who only like to dps will step up and take on the other roles, but I have my doubts if that will happen to any great extent.

    Everyday I get my cap on the character I am focused on gearing. After that I help out with other roles. I tried CCing and just din't enjoy that style of play, so I help with heals, tanks and AoAC/AoED when I can.
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  • roughbearmattachroughbearmattach Posts: 4,784 Arc User
    Yes , i don't really mind.
    You have plenty of tries to get three runs on your DPS toons. It's more likely for two zones to appear per cosmic now, two zones that actually do the mission.

    With a 50 person zone cap, the second zone often never forms, or doesn't generate the interest to get a run.


    Cosmics Week changes how the runs work, as other posters have noted. Wait until after the week, and then see how things are working.
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    Yes , i don't really mind.

    And last but not least, I'm (we are ?) experiencing a depletion of (competent ?) key roles.

    That's cosmic week mostly, as that doubles the number of runs without doubling the daily limit. The reduced zone cap also increases the number of runs without increasing the daily limit, but by a lesser degree.
  • leuchadegoutiereleuchadegoutiere Posts: 136 Arc User
    No, i see no reason for it and want the 50 Cap back.
    It's been two weeks if not more we have a slight lack of healers, tanks and stuff, at least at my playing hours. That was before cosmic event, you're forgeting that time frame, like if the depletion is just confined to the cosmic event. Still, I didn't experienced the increased number of runs, beside them being more frequent. What will happen when CD comes back to 4 hours ? That's my wondering here.
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  • darqaura2darqaura2 Posts: 932 Arc User
    Yes , i don't really mind.

    The main reason key roles are depleted at the moment is because there are twice as many runs. Relatively few people want to tank, even fewer want to CC. Most like mindless dps roles. Once all the players who play tanks and CCers are capped they have no reason to go to cosmics anymore. I think the devs hope that players who only like to dps will step up and take on the other roles, but I have my doubts if that will happen to any great extent.

    Everyday I get my cap on the character I am focused on gearing. After that I help out with other roles. I tried CCing and just din't enjoy that style of play, so I help with heals, tanks and AoAC/AoED when I can.

    Pretty much where I am. I'll help out with healing when not dps or be a soak tank on dino. But I've learned that overall I seriously dislike MAIN tanking . . . like a lot.

    My ccer has also long been turned into a healer.
  • magpieuk2014magpieuk2014 Posts: 1,268 Arc User
    I don't do Cosmics so i don't really care.
    As long as people don't start assuming that those zones are only for Cosmics and start trying to whine other players out of the zone, it'll be fine.
  • flyingfinnflyingfinn Posts: 8,408 Arc User
    :#
    I thought the lvl cap was 40.
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  • deadman20deadman20 Posts: 1,529 Arc User
    Yes , i don't really mind.
    As long as people don't start assuming that those zones are only for Cosmics and start trying to whine other players out of the zone, it'll be fine.

    Shouldn't be too big an issue if we're getting multiple zones now. There's usually another zone ready to be taken by either party if the current one becomes too crowded.​​
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,915 Arc User
    Yes , i don't really mind.

    :#
    I thought the lvl cap was 40.

    Talking about zone pop caps here....
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  • magpieuk2014magpieuk2014 Posts: 1,268 Arc User
    I don't do Cosmics so i don't really care.
    Shouldn't be too big an issue if we're getting multiple zones now. There's usually another zone ready to be taken by either party if the current one becomes too crowded.​​

    I'm sure it'll be fine, as long as everyone remembers you don't always get a choice of which zone you return to when leaving an instanced mission.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited April 2018
    Yes , i don't really mind.
    Last night we did 3 apes in a row.

    As long as people don't start assuming that those zones are only for Cosmics and start trying to whine other players out of the zone, it'll be fine.

    Considering the low number of people generally in the zone to do missions, it's not an issue for me. Just makes popping additional zones easier.

    Now we just need people to adjust to the new reality and have some of those dpsers roll tanks and support toons so that new zone can get started rather than waiting for the other zone to finish.
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 7,065 Arc User
    Yes , i don't really mind.
    As time has gone on, there has been a push to filter players in Cosmic instances, this has been through adjusting mechanics and in some cases requirements for the fight, so I'm not surprised that the number of players has been reduced in the zone.

    This is meant to be beneficial for players so that there's not so much going on during the fight, as others have pointed out.

    I think the last time I attended a Cosmic fight must have been late last year or early January at best. Unfortunately they can bring out the worst in people and I don't want to always deal with that personally.

    If people really want to continue running Cosmics under this new zone cap, they'll definitely find away. If players of that content are determined, they'll find a way to manage. I have no doubt about that.
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 5,424 Arc User
    Yes , i don't really mind.
    You need to be on at ca. 4:00 a.m. EST. That's when the smaller, better coordinated runs tend to happen. Much less drama at those!
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  • avianosavianos Posts: 6,021 Arc User
    Yes , i don't really mind.
    It's ok

    I finally saw Double Instances during european hours after so long​​
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  • catstarstocatstarsto Posts: 1,129 Arc User
    edited April 2018
    No, i see no reason for it and want the 50 Cap back.
    It depends on who piles into the zone, if the pros get left out and all or half are the Marx bros, it will increase fails.


    How about just private queued instances for up to 35 players?? that way you can pick and choose who you want in it!

    That way you can also control the amount of "I dont know what im doing!" people to a safe amount for those still learning

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  • ealford1985ealford1985 Posts: 3,582 Arc User
    ^No
  • mrlunkovichmrlunkovich Posts: 59 Arc User
    edited April 2018
    No, i see no reason for it and want the 50 Cap back.
    My issue with the "fix" is the fact it shouldn't be a fix at all, at least not for the issue stated ( Hit registry on Comsics ). There is no way that the player limit should be effecting if a NPC target is registering being hit, these are two entirely different functions whose code should have no interactions capable of changing their respective operations. This is literally coding 101.

    If somehow their coding is entangled the proper fix would be to use the Test Server version of the code to rewrite the functions properly so they are not effect each other's variables. As this change seems to have caught everyone by surprise clearly it was never tested, defeating the purpose of having a test server.
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  • catstarstocatstarsto Posts: 1,129 Arc User
    edited April 2018
    No, i see no reason for it and want the 50 Cap back.

    ^No

    if your worried about not being picked (popularity driven picks), dont feel bad I most likely wont get picked ether lol

    But the more i think on this the more i not only like but thought of a tweek for a queued version (leave the ones that are still open instance) but create a tutorial version instead with a reduced reward 1g 1s for finishing, but it has popup tips telling you where to stand and explanations of the boss tells so you know when to block, unblock, buff your dps, agro and pull baby, when to not stand in fire, etc

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  • ealford1985ealford1985 Posts: 3,582 Arc User
    I’m not worried. It’s just a horrible idea.
  • catstarstocatstarsto Posts: 1,129 Arc User
    No, i see no reason for it and want the 50 Cap back.

    I’m not worried. It’s just a horrible idea.

    ...ok


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  • draogndraogn Posts: 1,269 Arc User
    No, i see no reason for it and want the 50 Cap back.
    No, but so long as it's temporary and they actively fix whatever problem it was suppose to solve. It will be fine.
  • deadman20deadman20 Posts: 1,529 Arc User
    Yes , i don't really mind.
    My issue with the "fix" is the fact it shouldn't be a fix at all, at least not for the issue stated ( Hit registry on Comsics ). There is no way that the player limit should be effecting if a NPC target is registering being hit, these are two entirely different functions whose code should have no interactions capable of changing their respective operations. This is literally coding 101.

    In a perfect world...

    CO's code is incredibly funky. If I remember right, Damage and Buffs/Debuffs all share the same category of "Effect" or something like that. There's a hard-set limit on these "effects" that is in place to prevent the game's engine from killing itself or causing the server to break down. CO's engine is old and likely cannot handle an increase of the effect limit. Not due to the hardware it's on, but just because of how the engine was originally made. If we REALLY wanted to see the issue go away, we would need a massive overhaul of the engine, and that just isn't in the budget both for time and resources.

    For now, they're introducing a few bandaids to help reduce the issue, like they did with consolidating Bleed damage. This reduced player cap is also on trial since we discussed it in another thread and came to the conclusion that, well, it might not be such a bad idea. In truth, the new cap isn't as bad as people think. It's a lot easier to manage a group of 35 players than it is to manage a group of 50 when it comes to how Cosmic battles are. Cosmics DO scale to the amount of players around, and as we've seen, too many players causes a serious issue because of that pesky effect limit AND Cosmic scaling.

    The team is doing their best to make sure the game is playable for everyone with what they've got available. It's not perfect, but it'll have to do for the time being.​​
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited April 2018
    Yes , i don't really mind.

    There is no way that the player limit should be effecting if a NPC target is registering being hit, these are two entirely different functions whose code should have no interactions capable of changing their respective operations. This is literally coding 101.

    The sheer number of effects being applied to the cosmic means they hit the max limit of effects allowed, meaning all further effects get dropped.
    The sheer number of effects is a function of the number of players present.
    Lowering the zone cap lowers the number of players present.

    Something something coding 101.
  • nephtnepht Posts: 6,883 Arc User
    No, i see no reason for it and want the 50 Cap back.
    Why change it, seem like a kinda pointless change.
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    Yes , i don't really mind.

    My issue with the "fix" is the fact it shouldn't be a fix at all, at least not for the issue stated ( Hit registry on Comsics ). There is no way that the player limit should be effecting if a NPC target is registering being hit

    Um... actually, that's bog standard MMO coding. It depends a bit on how the code is set up, but games always have limits on evaluation of effects. Most likely, it has to run through the entire list of status effects every time damage is applied; more players means both more status effects and more damage applications to apply, for a net effect that is more than linear in number of players.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    Yes , i don't really mind.
    nepht said:

    Why change it, seem like a kinda pointless change.

    If you look through the thread you'll find an explanation u3u
  • No, i see no reason for it and want the 50 Cap back.
    No.

    While some of the things scale to player size, others do not (and this is my problem).

    We are down to now ~1/3rd of the original 100 cap, and no adjustments have been made or announced to be considered. Worse changes (spazzy dogs are breaking holds more than ever) seems to have broken things more and I have doubts they will be recalled with the change if it stays mid to long term.

    Without adjustments made to temper this low size (and no announcement other than 'this is the bad solution we don't even like but picked') a big no from me.

    Even if this is temporary, even if they are working on a solution, i doubt it will be quick.
    And even this is a planned test to metric out the 35 limit scaling .. still no.

    For the record, i think a lot of the other suggested solutions are worse.
    So this is no on a scale of no, NO and **** NO.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    Yes , i don't really mind.

    While some of the things scale to player size, others do not (and this is my problem).

    How is this a relevant issue? Is there something that stops scaling at a number above 35?
  • deadman20deadman20 Posts: 1,529 Arc User
    Yes , i don't really mind.
    No.

    While some of the things scale to player size, others do not (and this is my problem).

    We are down to now ~1/3rd of the original 100 cap, and no adjustments have been made or announced to be considered. Worse changes (spazzy dogs are breaking holds more than ever) seems to have broken things more and I have doubts they will be recalled with the change if it stays mid to long term.

    Without adjustments made to temper this low size (and no announcement other than 'this is the bad solution we don't even like but picked') a big no from me.

    Even if this is temporary, even if they are working on a solution, i doubt it will be quick.
    And even this is a planned test to metric out the 35 limit scaling .. still no.

    For the record, i think a lot of the other suggested solutions are worse.
    So this is no on a scale of no, NO and **** NO.

    Yeah, it sucks when things get downsized, but I'd take that solution over the game's content becoming unplayable due to limitations being overmatched.

    A lot has been added in these past few years. Powerframe reworks happened and we've got a bunch of new buffs and debuffs floating around whose sheer number is more than the engine can handle. It's not pretty, and I'd rather have large scale 100-player Cosmic fights too (I miss Firefall), but in CO's current situation that just isn't in the cards.​​
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  • ordinaryplayer#2642 ordinaryplayer Posts: 51 Arc User
    edited April 2018
    No, i see no reason for it and want the 50 Cap back.
    spinnytop said:

    While some of the things scale to player size, others do not (and this is my problem).

    How is this a relevant issue? Is there something that stops scaling at a number above 35?
    Yes something stops does in fact stop scaling! Direct Damage to Tanks. At 1 player. CC timing, stops scaling at 1 player. Number of hearts and dogs, scales at 1 player. Need for dog pullers, off tanks.

    None of this has been adjusted relative to party size, yet the probable number of available healers (buffs, auras, heals), and tanks (main, off, pull) does as party size reduces from 100 to 35.

    Short: If 4 standard tanks with 4 standard healers were needed at dino V1, we should be scaled down relative to party size everywhere. If hearts were meant to be shared, this should be fixed even if this a temporary situation, even just if done slightly (Not literally 1/3rd damage)

    No it's not "fine" that one person can do it, don't settle for "fine" insist on good. P2P/P2W is not the answer (Ultimate tanks, ultimate CC'ers using drifter items, cash shop items)
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