How to allow lower tier powers compete with the top tier

warcanch

Whenever players are going for the top end dps or threat, invariably, there is usually only 1 choice in a powerset to accomplish this.

Sure, there are other, support powers, that help get even more from this 1 ability.

My concern is that I much prefer the LOOK of some lower tier powers and am doing myself a great disservice if I try to make that my #1 power.


The example I will use for this is Heavy Weapons.

We should all be able to agree that Annihilate is top power here for dps and threat. Whereas Skewer and Skullsmasher are not. But, I like what Skullsmasher looks like for "this" character and Skewer for "that" character. And, no matter what, I am gimping myself if I make these powers my #1.

A suggestion that I think has merit and possibly (?) ease of dev implementation (are you NUTS? Everyone thinks that) is: give these lower tier powers a THREE point advantage that, after you have taken the rank 2 advantage, it makes this powers' base damage equal to rank 3 of the top tier power.

base damage of (Annihilate + rank2 + rank3) = base damage of (Skullsmasher + rank2 + new3ptTierEqualizerAdvantage)


Now, I can use Skullsmasher and spend 5 advantage points so that it would be the same as Annihilate after spending 4 advantage points (rank2 and rank3).

And yes, I know Annihilate can go higher with the Scorching Blade advantage, but I'd rather address this portion first.


Did I explain this well enough?​​

reaperwithnoname

A lot of powers are balanced specifically around the fact that their dps is inferior to certain other choices. Consider, for example, any power whose primary purpose is to apply a debuff of some sort. Or an AoE. Or a 100 ft range power. The list goes on.

The whole point of having powers be different is to give variety to builds. This power gets to have 100 ft range, but it roots you in place and has lower damage; this power gets to have the most damage, but is melee; this power is in the middle; and this power is poor in all areas but applies such-and-such effect that certain builds will want.

Making every power too similar to each other is not a recipe for game balance.

warcanch

Yes, of course there are other powers that provide utility and other helpful things. But, there still are lower tier powers (primarily comparing tier 2 to tier 3 powers here) that don't get used simply because they aren't as oomphy as the tier 3 powers in the set.

Some of them have a utility on the advantage points. Some are innate. And some powers simply are just lower powered.

It's simply boring having to take the one and only worthy top tier power. Oh look, another ____ spammer build.

I'm not advocating for game imbalance. I don't want some power (as per your example list) to be able to still have that utility AND be able to hit like a tier 3 power. I'm simply looking at what powers we already have, that just don't get used because they don't bring any utility and there's no point ranking them up because that single tier 3 power, ranked up, overshadows it. I'd like a way to use those powers, especially as my #1 (dps, big hit, etc).​​

reaperwithnoname

Utility isn't as simple as you might think. Not being rooted or not having a charge time is a form of utility, for example (What's that, the boss is charging an AoE? Guess you'll have to stop in the middle of that charge and lose some dps).

A one-size-fits-all solution like what you're proposing here is not going to solve the problem. Moreover, the fact that your solution requires the spending of extra advantage points means that the previously weaker options would still technically be trap options by your definition, since you would have to spend extra advantage points to get the same effect. There would still be no reason to use the lower tier powers unless you personally wanted to use them, which is something you can already do right now. So, the worst case scenario is a sea of balance problems, and the best case scenario is no change from the status quo. I see no reason why precious development time should be spent on something like this, when conventional powerset revamps could accomplish the intended goal without the problems.

warcanch

Probably because all of the powerset revamps have exacerbated the problem, not fixed it.


In my original example, Skullcrusher (I called it Skullsmasher) and Skewer are 10' long, 3' wide cylinder AoE attacks. However, there are examples of the advantage making some basic changes, such as changing it from an AoE to single target (Seismic Smash + Massive Attack advantage) or changing it from melee (and getting any Strength bonuses) to ranged (now using Ego bonuses) (Upheaval + Expansive Terrain advantage).

reaperwithnoname#5949 wrote:

Moreover, the fact that your solution requires the spending of extra advantage points means that the previously weaker options would still technically be trap options by your definition, since you would have to spend extra advantage points to get the same effect.

What are you talking about here? Trap options?

The reason I'm espousing an extra advantage point being spent is one is a tier 2 power and the other is a tier 3. The tier 3 should do better dps than a tier 2. The fact that this is not usually true is certainly something the devs should address.


I'm tired of seeing only 1 real choice per set for the #1. I'd like more options and think we could use existing powers to do it. Maybe not as I suggested. I can live with that.​​

pantagruel01

An advantage that makes a low tier power behave like a high tier power would probably have to include an energy cost increase, as that's considered a balancing factor in power design.

reaperwithnoname

warcanch wrote: »

Probably because all of the powerset revamps have exacerbated the problem, not fixed it.


In my original example, Skullcrusher (I called it Skullsmasher) and Skewer are 10' long, 3' wide cylinder AoE attacks. However, there are examples of the advantage making some basic changes, such as changing it from an AoE to single target (Seismic Smash + Massive Attack advantage) or changing it from melee (and getting any Strength bonuses) to ranged (now using Ego bonuses) (Upheaval + Expansive Terrain advantage).

reaperwithnoname#5949 wrote:

Moreover, the fact that your solution requires the spending of extra advantage points means that the previously weaker options would still technically be trap options by your definition, since you would have to spend extra advantage points to get the same effect.

What are you talking about here? Trap options?

The reason I'm espousing an extra advantage point being spent is one is a tier 2 power and the other is a tier 3. The tier 3 should do better dps than a tier 2. The fact that this is not usually true is certainly something the devs should address.


I'm tired of seeing only 1 real choice per set for the #1. I'd like more options and think we could use existing powers to do it. Maybe not as I suggested. I can live with that.​​

But the tier 3 power would still be the better choice to take. So there's still no reason to take the tier 2, unless you really want it. But you can do that right now, so your suggestion wouldn't actually change anything.

If targeted changes have made things worse, blanket changes can only be catastrophic.

warcanch

pantagruel01 wrote: »

An advantage that makes a low tier power behave like a high tier power would probably have to include an energy cost increase, as that's considered a balancing factor in power design.

Sounds right. Proper balance should be a priority.

reaperwithnoname#5949 wrote: »

But the tier 3 power would still be the better choice to take. So there's still no reason to take the tier 2, unless you really want it. But you can do that right now, so your suggestion wouldn't actually change anything.

If targeted changes have made things worse, blanket changes can only be catastrophic.

I feel that you are missing the point. It's boring to always have to take that 1 lone, top tier power to maximize dps/threat.

And, of course you can always take that lower tier power but, as I said, you do yourself a disservice if you try to make that your #1.

Sure, I'd much prefer an alternative to my suggestion, such as there are 3 viable choices for #1 in each powerset. Each has a different anim, different chargeup, different etc. However, when you factor the various differences in and check their dps/threat to one another, they all have the same viable choice. IE approximately the same.​​

jaazaniah1

To my mind they missed the boat right at the beginning. Animations should have been separate from the types of damage the powers apply. I hate the finger snap animation and wish I could use some other animation in place of it. Why not be able to shoot a fireball with the skewer animation? Why not be able to use the archery animation to shoot an ice blast? But, that's all water under the table now.

bluhman

This actually is a design creed I think should've been picked up way earlier on in my book. The way it is now, the game's so strongly based around trying to minimize the usage of anything but your highest-tier damage attack. It's basically the attempts of the game's design around varying energy costs tying to attack effects backfiring: builds are now designed to make it so that it's almost entirely based around using Energy-Building tactics combined with a few utility powers with suboptimal DPS just to make that one attack as powerful as possible.

What got me thinking about that was looking at just how fights in CoX looked, and overall while the whole cooldown thing is a contentious difference between the games it does admittedly produce character animation cycles that look at lot more interesting than just throwing the exact same haymaker over and over again.

The implementation of this effort in my head would probably be in a totally different direction: some solution that would facilitate of a wide number of attack powers from associated power trees to be used in fairly equal amounts depending on the situations. It'd probably require its own thread. Basically I totally get where you're coming from, just that I'd see a different approach as the best way to reach that end.

pantagruel01

If you want people to mix up their tactics, you have to make continually using the same thing an inferior option. In the real world, to the extent it happens, it's a result of tactical adaptations by targets (if you know what someone's going to do, you can counter or exploit it), but that requires fighting game level controls and significant improvement to mob AI. Given the limits of the game engine, the easiest to implement are cooldowns, combos (stack/rupture, self-buffs, debuffs), and diminishing returns (using a move applies a debuff to you that reduces the effectiveness of that move until the debuff expires). The first two are already in use but still leaves a lot of attacks worthless.

warcanch

I like this line of ideas. Differing views. Good stuff.

In SWTOR, just about all powers have a cooldown to prevent you from spamming it. Plus, as mentioned, there are powers that provide buffs/debuffs to setup for various attacks. It would be an interesting thing to employ here. But, then MSA would need some adjustment as ALL powers would have a cooldown.

THIS would be a massive undertaking. Of course, almost any sweeping change would be. It's why they do about 1 powerset at a time.​​

aesica

Honestly, just make multiple T3 powers with relatively equal stats (damage/cost/etc)

Right now, most sets have 1 T3 power that everyone who uses that set uses. Everything else is either utility or useless fluff. There's no reason that "useless fluff" can't be given a boost so that it can serve as a proper T3 option.

reaperwithnoname

warcanch wrote: »

pantagruel01 wrote: »

An advantage that makes a low tier power behave like a high tier power would probably have to include an energy cost increase, as that's considered a balancing factor in power design.

Sounds right. Proper balance should be a priority.

reaperwithnoname#5949 wrote: »

But the tier 3 power would still be the better choice to take. So there's still no reason to take the tier 2, unless you really want it. But you can do that right now, so your suggestion wouldn't actually change anything.

If targeted changes have made things worse, blanket changes can only be catastrophic.

I feel that you are missing the point. It's boring to always have to take that 1 lone, top tier power to maximize dps/threat.

And, of course you can always take that lower tier power but, as I said, you do yourself a disservice if you try to make that your #1.

Sure, I'd much prefer an alternative to my suggestion, such as there are 3 viable choices for #1 in each powerset. Each has a different anim, different chargeup, different etc. However, when you factor the various differences in and check their dps/threat to one another, they all have the same viable choice. IE approximately the same.​​

And, with your suggestion, it would still be a disservice to yourself to take the lower tier powers, because you'd be spending an extra advantage point to get to the same place. That's the point I'm trying to make. It wouldn't lead to what you seek. This is not to say that what you seek is wrong; only that this is the wrong means of obtaining it.

spinnytop

They should just turn Skullcrusher into a single target nuke. I mean let's be honest, it doesn't look like an aoe, so why is it an aoe? Hell we could solve the whole "HW doesn't do as good single target dps as other power sets" issue by doing this. Annihilate is a strong-as-hell knock back so that's where some of its power budget goes. Skullcrusher just has Knockdown, and its best damage potential depends on the target having a specific debuff on it. It's practically begging to be Heavy Weapon's new primary nuke.​​