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New Vikorin the Blind, not so bad.

monaahirumonaahiru Posts: 3,071 Arc User
edited November 2018 in Missions and Content

Not so bad on reward and time taking on run. No idea for device drop rate. o3o
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Comments

  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,625 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    First of all, nicely done.

    I do however have a few reservations.
    I hope you're not under the impression that was an average team. But if the intent of the video was "look Andrith can be overpowered with minmax endgame builds", then it does show that well. For a more average team you'd want to lower dps by at least 50%, and don't use a DE tank so the healer grabs agro from all the statues.
  • lezard21lezard21 Posts: 1,382 Arc User
    aiqa wrote: »
    For a more average team you'd want to lower dps by at least 50%.

    50% is an understament, I'd say reduce it by 90%.

    Like, remember that time we were testing Nemesis alert and in order to simulate a low DPS environment we only had one person attacking the Nemesis and still won, yet on Live I've tanked instances where 4 people DPSing couldn't kill the nem in time?

    A pretty sizeable part of the CO population have terrible builds o3o​​
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,461 Arc User
    aiqa wrote: »
    For a more average team you'd want to lower dps by at least 50%, and don't use a DE tank so the healer grabs agro from all the statues.
    Does DE generate healing aggro? I thought it didn't. In any case, it wouldn't have made a lot of difference in this case, healer would have been perfectly capable of handling it (it is a bit of a build issue, not sure any AT healer except the mind is durable enough).
  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,625 Arc User
    Point still stands about using an average team but I should have added a "healer not focused on HoT or bubbles". And I know the fight is very doable, but it has to strict "if you use that or that or that" requirements.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,461 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    aiqa wrote: »
    Point still stands about using an average team but I should have added a "healer not focused on HoT or bubbles".
    HoT or bubbles seem like a pretty good idea vs Vikorin, honestly; the hardest part for a healer is when he hits you with his disable and you have to survive until you break free, and delayed healing (HoT, bubbles, bionic shielding) helps with that. Well, that and trying to res someone -- you'll need unbreakable, eruption, or a quite strong bubble to get off a res below 2/3. The actual amount of healing needed on the tank is fairly modest.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,655 Arc User
    edited November 2018
    I went in with an average team, possibly even below average? At least 2 of whom had never run it, including the healer - might have even been 3 newbies. Even brought one of my newer undergeared 40 dps. We wiped a few times on Vik, but ended up beating it. So I concur, not so bad.​​
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,461 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    We wiped a few times on Vik, but ended up beating it. So I concur, not so bad.​​
    Vikorin doesn't seem to glitch any more on a wipe (all his stuff used to get out of sync).
  • nbkxsnbkxs Posts: 596 Arc User
    We've been doing this consistently lately, I didn't really have much trouble with my healer, but I have a pretty specific way to focus setup my stuff, I mostly target myself, and hit everyone else due to everyone being so clustered up. It's pretty tough, but you can do it if you pay very close attention. And your dps take mind to use their wipes, and never stand in front of viko.
    [NbK]XStorm
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,461 Arc User
    nbkxs wrote: »
    We've been doing this consistently lately, I didn't really have much trouble with my healer, but I have a pretty specific way to focus setup my stuff, I mostly target myself, and hit everyone else due to everyone being so clustered up. It's pretty tough, but you can do it if you pay very close attention. And your dps take mind to use their wipes, and never stand in front of viko.
    It's going to be somewhat easier with some setups than others; for example, my healer has no heals that can simultaneously affect healer and tank except for healing runes, which means keeping up two sets of heals at once, but something like life essence/lifedrain/mind drain will do it more or less automatically. Surviving disables is about either heal over time effects or just high health and defense.
  • pwestolemynamepwestolemyname Posts: 978 Arc User
    Personally, I think it is easier than it used to be. I mean, yeah, the fight takes longer because he has a gajillion HP, but it just seems like the amount of ways that you can get screwed are fewer. It would be nice if the devs could think of different ways to make things "harder" than just with cranking up the HP to 11, just for variety.

    I went on a run recently (I think with Mona), where I was using my CCer to heal, so Manip instead of Compassion, which cuts healing down considerably. Most of us forget the trick about moving while disabled for most of the fight. We had at least 2 first-timers with us. And we still beat him. Took more than 10 minutes, but it wasn't bad.
    aiqa wrote: »
    I hope you're not under the impression that was an average team. But if the intent of the video was "look Andrith can be overpowered with minmax endgame builds", then it does show that well. For a more average team you'd want to lower dps by at least 50%, and don't use a DE tank so the healer grabs agro from all the statues.
    I don't even understand the point of this comment. Essentially it is summarized by, "bad builds are bad." I mean, if people don't want to do end-game stuff, great, there are a nice number of different formulas for enjoying this game. That is one thing that is so great about it. But, complaining that end-game content is too difficult for people who don't want to learn how to do them is silly.

    Really, the endgame in CO is some of the easiest I've ever seen. With the regularity and ease with which cosmics go down, literally anyone can easily grind for endgame gear, now. There is almost always plenty of extra power to carry a few underwhelming builds. There are hundreds of guides and nearly a dozen channels anyone can get help in to tweak up their build. You can retcon down to your socks, something unavailable in many games, so if you totally screw up from the get-go, it is not hard to fix. Retcon tokens are pretty cheap and often on sale. There really is no reason for anyone to play a significantly underperforming toon unless they really want to (for example, if that is their role-playing schtick).

    So, yeah, "bad builds are bad," but that has no relevance to the construction of challenging end-game content.
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  • lezard21lezard21 Posts: 1,382 Arc User
    So, yeah, "bad builds are bad," but that has no relevance to the construction of challenging end-game content.

    This remark is actually completely wrong. As many on this thread have concurred, including yourself when you said you brought your CC healer, the best and possibly only way for a Healer to not get insta-gibbed in this fight once every single Golem aggroes on him, is the use of delayed heals or survival tools like Bionic Shielding, BCR, Force Shield/Mindful Reinforcement, Ego Sprites/Mental Leech, Masterful Dodge, Unbreakable, etc.

    Introducing: the Radiant AT, one of the 2 free to play healers silver players have access to, which possess none of the above with the exception of Expulse's Healing Rune, which he will have to abandon anyways to avoid Vikorin's Knock follow up after the disable.

    Here you've got a case of someone who can optimize it's build and have it not be bad, but the intrinsecal mechanics of the fight make it impossible for him to run it.

    I ran Vikorin's revamped lair for the first time last night and honestly I didn't like it at all. I am always up for a challenge but I don't like fights were there are no visual queues or indicators. Vikorin uses the BAM! indicator for his blast, but uses none for his Disable. You just have to keep kinda keep track in your head that he uses it every 30 seconds in order to preemptively use your delayed healing/shielding, unless another skill is queued up, in which case he uses later resulting in certain delayed heals/shields to expire.

    There is also no visual indicator as to when or why a Golem will randomly yank you into the Lava, only that it will happen when you are disabled and have less recovery options. I've had it happen once to me last night, and during the last bar @nacito consistently got yanked after every disable and no one in the elite chat knew what was the cause of this other than "maybe Vikorin starts doing interesting things if you take too long to kill him", which again proves @aiqa 's point earlier that if the fight was intended for an average team, the video of the OP does not convey that at all.​​
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,461 Arc User
    lezard21 wrote: »
    I ran Vikorin's revamped lair for the first time last night and honestly I didn't like it at all. I am always up for a challenge but I don't like fights were there are no visual queues or indicators. Vikorin uses the BAM! indicator for his blast, but uses none for his Disable. You just have to keep kinda keep track in your head that he uses it every 30 seconds in order to preemptively use your delayed healing/shielding, unless another skill is queued up, in which case he uses later resulting in certain delayed heals/shields to expire.
    I solved that by using BCR every time it was up. Doesn't work as well for bionic, of course. Or you can just pile on the hit points or use AoRP, or if all else fails, a hybrid role healer using Invulnerability is plenty of healing.

    Yes, the Radiant is bad in this fight, but the Radiant is bad everywhere, so that's not really a surprise.
  • lezard21lezard21 Posts: 1,382 Arc User
    Yes, the Radiant is bad in this fight, but the Radiant is bad everywhere, so that's not really a surprise.

    Radiant can do TA and Cosmics reliably but not Vikorin o3o Doesn't make sense to me​​
  • darqaura2darqaura2 Posts: 922 Arc User
    lezard21 wrote: »
    aiqa wrote: »
    For a more average team you'd want to lower dps by at least 50%.

    50% is an understament, I'd say reduce it by 90%.

    Like, remember that time we were testing Nemesis alert and in order to simulate a low DPS environment we only had one person attacking the Nemesis and still won, yet on Live I've tanked instances where 4 people DPSing couldn't kill the nem in time?

    A pretty sizeable part of the CO population have terrible builds o3o​​

    Which isn't shocking since most CO doesn't prioritize anything about builds. AKA you can faceroll your keyboard to get through most of the content in CO.
  • nbkxsnbkxs Posts: 596 Arc User
    Hopefully that will change soon, and everything gets a 1000% difficult hike.
    [NbK]XStorm
  • xcelsior41xcelsior41 Posts: 1,041 Arc User
    nbkxs wrote: »
    Hopefully that will change soon, and everything gets a 1000% difficult hike.

    Hyperbole aside, some slight nudge in difficulty to provide some more intelligent play(not pigeon-hole people into certain powers/builds) would be nice
    Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.

    42 40s, LTSer.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,655 Arc User
    Agree. Regular content should be like what QWZ is right now, and QWZ should be bumped enough to warrant giving a decent amount of GCR ^_^​​
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,461 Arc User
    xcelsior41 wrote: »
    Hyperbole aside, some slight nudge in difficulty to provide some more intelligent play(not pigeon-hole people into certain powers/builds) would be nice
    The problem with this is that there are two ways to deal with higher difficulty: more powerful builds, and playing better. Thus, you can only really force intelligent play by having challenge that isn't really power related, or by pushing difficulty far enough that simple build optimization won't allow you to overpower it, and usually if you push difficulty that far intelligent play without build optimization can't beat it either.
  • xcelsior41xcelsior41 Posts: 1,041 Arc User
    xcelsior41 wrote: »
    Hyperbole aside, some slight nudge in difficulty to provide some more intelligent play(not pigeon-hole people into certain powers/builds) would be nice
    The problem with this is that there are two ways to deal with higher difficulty: more powerful builds, and playing better. Thus, you can only really force intelligent play by having challenge that isn't really power related, or by pushing difficulty far enough that simple build optimization won't allow you to overpower it, and usually if you push difficulty that far intelligent play without build optimization can't beat it either.

    If they make the difficulty slider relevant and maybe add in some mechanics to enemy groups to make them unique to each other than that doesn't become the issue. You can have a play-your-way build and still have relevant challenge. Though on a side note, I've always wondered, esp. pertaining to endgame, how is it possible, in a game w/FF, to have trinity-based gameplay requirements?
    Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.

    42 40s, LTSer.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,675 Arc User
    If you define trinity as "roles that need to be covered" sure.. BUT, how do you make it require specialized characters instead of players who are generalists? I mean, what functional difference is there in running a mission with a team where you have one healer, a tank and DPS vs three reasonably tough characters who can self heal while breaking faces?
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,461 Arc User
    xcelsior41 wrote: »
    Though on a side note, I've always wondered, esp. pertaining to endgame, how is it possible, in a game w/FF, to have trinity-based gameplay requirements?
    FF just lets you choose how specialized you are in the different roles. If you want to get rid of trinity mechanics, you have to eliminate the concept of threat, so NPCs (like PCs) can just turn around and whallop anyone they feel like.
  • monaahirumonaahiru Posts: 3,071 Arc User
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,655 Arc User
    xcelsior41 wrote: »
    how is it possible, in a game w/FF, to have trinity-based gameplay requirements?

    Because powers still only cover the functions of dealing damage, generating threat, and healing/protection/crowd control. All you're doing when you make a freeform is deciding which mix of trinity role functionality your character will provide - even archetypes mix them quite often. Encounters generally require some amount of "supportness" and "tankness" among the group of players to succeed, and as long as within your group you meet these minimum thresholds then you meet the role requirement. It generally works best when those requirements are concentrated within specialized builds, rather than spread throughout the party, but the latter can work as well. "DPSness" is required in a certain amount for a few encounters, but in general the amount of it just determines how fast the encounter will be completed.

    That's the reason that, even with FF, we still have Tanks and Healers and DPS, and in fact why quite often the FF versions of those are even more specialized to the role than Archetypes are.​​
  • pwestolemynamepwestolemyname Posts: 978 Arc User
    xcelsior41 wrote: »
    Hyperbole aside, some slight nudge in difficulty to provide some more intelligent play(not pigeon-hole people into certain powers/builds) would be nice
    The problem with this is that there are two ways to deal with higher difficulty: more powerful builds, and playing better. Thus, you can only really force intelligent play by having challenge that isn't really power related, or by pushing difficulty far enough that simple build optimization won't allow you to overpower it, and usually if you push difficulty that far intelligent play without build optimization can't beat it either.

    Third way is teaming, though that could possibly be called a subset of #2 above.
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  • pwestolemynamepwestolemyname Posts: 978 Arc User
    edited January 7
    lezard21 wrote: »
    So, yeah, "bad builds are bad," but that has no relevance to the construction of challenging end-game content.

    This remark is actually completely wrong.
    ...
    Introducing: the Radiant AT, ​​
    So, by "actually completely wrong, what you mean is, "wrong in a single case of a freebie player." So, I'll take that and say that I have no issue with end-game content requiring at least a small financial investment in the game. You see, I like playing Champions, and I know that means they need revenue. So, asking people to pay for their entertainment does not bother me. Honestly, it bothers me when people do not pay for their entertainment, so there is no way you are going to convince me that we should make end-game content easier so more people can play for free.
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,655 Arc User
    Let's keep in mind that the theory that a Radiant AT cannot successfully heal a Vikorin run is untested and unproven o3o​​
  • monaahirumonaahiru Posts: 3,071 Arc User
    So this start to drop.
    neRYOQW.jpg
  • xcelsior41xcelsior41 Posts: 1,041 Arc User
    edited January 12
    lezard21 wrote: »
    So, yeah, "bad builds are bad," but that has no relevance to the construction of challenging end-game content.

    This remark is actually completely wrong.
    ...
    Introducing: the Radiant AT, ​​
    So, by "actually completely wrong, what you mean is, "wrong in a single case of a freebie player." So, I'll take that and say that I have no issue with end-game content requiring at least a small financial investment in the game. You see, I like playing Champions, and I know that means they need revenue. So, asking people to pay for their entertainment does not bother me. Honestly, it bothers me when people do not pay for their entertainment, so there is no way you are going to convince me that we should make end-game content easier so more people can play for free.

    Why does it bother you? Does it directly affect you? You DO know CO is Free to play right? So, because people are playing the game as advertised, they shouldn't...play as advertised? This is pure idiocy, and I'd hope it was satire.

    P.S: I could make an acct right now alongside this LTS and play a free AT. I sure hope devs don't come after me :scream:
    Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.

    42 40s, LTSer.
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 3,308 Arc User
    edited January 12
    Probably bothersome because those of us who put money into the game are paying for other people's entertainment and not getting anything from it? That would be my guess.If players (i.e. all players) don't spend some real money on the game even the small updates we see will cease and the game will shut down. I guess the free-loaders will just move on to the next free-to-play game. I'd love to see a cool new zone created that required the ungodly amount of a 1 time/account payment of $10 of real money to unlock.
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  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 3,308 Arc User
    edited January 12
    Double post :(

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