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STO new payment plan thoughts.

jarfarujarfaru Posts: 67 Arc User
Doesn't anyone think STO's new payment plan would really help Champions? They got rid of the monthly payment plan for new players if i'm reading it right.
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  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 5,987 Arc User
    There are very few perks for subscribing to STO; what they've done is take all of them except the stipend and veteran rewards (that is, larger inventory, an account bank, more character bank slots, an extra character slot, two extra Bridge Officer slots and a 2-billion-EC currency cap) and made them available for a one-time 1500 Zen purchase per account. If you want more of those slots, you can buy more of these Elite Starter Packs, up to whatever the limit is for all of the above (for instance, if you're been a subscriber for a long time and have purchased whatever the maximum number of character slots is, the Starter Pack won't get you any new ones).

    Details are available here.
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  • flyingfinnflyingfinn Posts: 7,633 Arc User
    CO could move to a Lifetimer Only Plan.
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,220 Arc User
    Well... yes and no..... It's not really the same thing. The two things stack apparently. So if you're gold or LTS and haven't gone crazy buying slots buying the pack gives you a bunch more slots.
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  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 5,987 Arc User
    Thing is, CO gives you a lot more for your monthly sub than STO does. The concept of a one-time purchase that gets you all the bennies of a monthly subscription just doesn't make sense for CO's business model - it would be literally giving away the store.
    "Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"

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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,220 Arc User
    Well, I imagine power coloring, and the subscriber costumes are off the table, so how much is left really? retrain tokens and bag slots?
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  • revanantmoriturirevanantmorituri Posts: 375 Arc User
    Eight freeform slots, and another each time you get a character to 40. So a base value of $400.
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 13,709 Arc User
    edited May 8
    Aren't Free Form Slots basically already our version of this? A one time purchase that gives you a key feature of being subbed permanently. Every other feature of subbing is basically just what Jon said, giving you the store and thwarting a ton of other purchases, so that part wouldn't make sense as a one time purchase ( except as LTS ).

    So I guess we already have two versions of this, one being FF slots, and the only other one that makes sense for what you get, LTS.
  • mithrosnomoremithrosnomore Posts: 423 Arc User
    jarfaru wrote: »
    Doesn't anyone think STO's new payment plan would really help Champions? They got rid of the monthly payment plan for new players if i'm reading it right.

    I'm not even sure that STO's new "payment plan" will help STO, never mind CO.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,220 Arc User
    jarfaru wrote: »
    Doesn't anyone think STO's new payment plan would really help Champions? They got rid of the monthly payment plan for new players if i'm reading it right.
    I'm not even sure that STO's new "payment plan" will help STO, never mind CO.
    The new thing is just a services bundle that gives services as an account unlock. It's not even ALL the services.
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  • soulforgersoulforger Posts: 1,520 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Aren't Free Form Slots basically already our version of this? A one time purchase that gives you a key feature of being subbed permanently. Every other feature of subbing is basically just what Jon said, giving you the store and thwarting a ton of other purchases, so that part wouldn't make sense as a one time purchase ( except as LTS ).

    So I guess we already have two versions of this, one being FF slots, and the only other one that makes sense for what you get, LTS.

    I'd have to say that FF slots...are not as good as the deal the thing STO is doing. FF cost a lot of money. While the package STO is offering is basically the price of one month of subbing. But, at least, STO players do not lose any benifits they got when their sub time runs out. If CO did the same thing, they would make it so that a character that got such a package bought for them would never lose the benefits. But, because of how CO is, they would have to make it so the package only benefits the toon that used/received the package. Of course, the package couldn't gave the free character slot though. Though, at the same time, switching to this deal would mean they'd have to leave character slots open if a gold sub goes back to a silver sub (instead of locking them as it currently does).

    But, that would be how they'd have to do it to continue receiving money. Overall, I'd say it is a bad idea, simply because there are some players that sub, despite having only one or two characters. Thus, those players, would than spend only one sub worth of money on one purchase, and thus never pay for any more sub time. Which would mean less money for CO.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,220 Arc User
    soulforger wrote: »
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Aren't Free Form Slots basically already our version of this? A one time purchase that gives you a key feature of being subbed permanently. Every other feature of subbing is basically just what Jon said, giving you the store and thwarting a ton of other purchases, so that part wouldn't make sense as a one time purchase ( except as LTS ).

    So I guess we already have two versions of this, one being FF slots, and the only other one that makes sense for what you get, LTS.
    I'd have to say that FF slots...are not as good as the deal the thing STO is doing. FF cost a lot of money. While the package STO is offering is basically the price of one month of subbing. But, at least, STO players do not lose any benifits they got when their sub time runs out. If CO did the same thing, they would make it so that a character that got such a package bought for them would never lose the benefits. But, because of how CO is, they would have to make it so the package only benefits the toon that used/received the package. Of course, the package couldn't gave the free character slot though. Though, at the same time, switching to this deal would mean they'd have to leave character slots open if a gold sub goes back to a silver sub (instead of locking them as it currently does).

    But, that would be how they'd have to do it to continue receiving money. Overall, I'd say it is a bad idea, simply because there are some players that sub, despite having only one or two characters. Thus, those players, would than spend only one sub worth of money on one purchase, and thus never pay for any more sub time. Which would mean less money for CO.
    I could see a bundle that gives A FF slot, but it'd need to cost more then 1500 zen.
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 13,709 Arc User
    Even for 1 character, a package that gives all benefits of subbing would have to be like...way more expensive than 15 dollars. You just get so much with a CO sub.


    "Champions Online, you just get more!" (tm)
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,220 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Even for 1 character, a package that gives all benefits of subbing would have to be like...way more expensive than 15 dollars. You just get so much with a CO sub.


    "Champions Online, you just get more!" (tm)
    that's just it, the bundle in STO DOESN'T give all the benefits of subbing. It doesn't even have anything in it that's unique to subs.
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  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 5,987 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Even for 1 character, a package that gives all benefits of subbing would have to be like...way more expensive than 15 dollars. You just get so much with a CO sub.


    "Champions Online, you just get more!" (tm)
    that's just it, the bundle in STO DOESN'T give all the benefits of subbing. It doesn't even have anything in it that's unique to subs.
    The only sub benefits not included in the package are the stipend, veteran rewards, higher refinement caps for Dil, and access to the Captain's Table - which, as I understand it, is utilized somewhat less than our own VIP Lounge.

    CO, on the other hand, gives you several C-Store costume sets, eight more characters, the monthly Sub Rewards (which can't even be purchased later, unless you go LTS), and of course the aforementioned stipend, vet rewards, increased Q refinement cap, VIP Lounge, and the higher Resources cap. Also, there are several ATs, as well as the whole Freeform thing, that would have to be purchased separately but are included in Gold status here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I recall there are only a couple of extra Trek races made available for free to subscribers, and of course all career paths are open to every player - right now I'm pushing through a Temporal Recruit who's a Tellarite engineer who mostly flies escorts; he recently hit lvl 40, and upgraded to USS Pegasus, a Tier 6 Bajoran Interceptor escort. (Doing that mostly for the Dil bonus the other toons on the account can collect when he finishes a story arc, so I can swap it for Zen and buy that Elite Starter Pack. :smile: )
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  • sandukutupusandukutupu Posts: 46 Arc User
    I am afraid it is about too late in the day for this idea to work; but had they implemented a Foundry "lite" version here on CO. They could have charged zen for extra assets. I know of several Foundry authors who would have spent a lot of money making quests and this in turn would bring in more players for the great new content. The content would be great since the authors care enough to pay out the cash. I spent cash on STO back when I was learning the ropes, I got extra character slots I needed to operate the Foundry properly. Problem is, Cryptic doesn't believe the Foundry can generate any income. They used it as a ploy to draw us in to something "unique" and then stopped development.
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  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,092 Arc User
    jarfaru wrote: »
    Doesn't anyone think STO's new payment plan would really help Champions? They got rid of the monthly payment plan for new players if i'm reading it right.
    One thing to realize is that STO doesn't try to emphasize monthly subs as heavily as CO does. Aside from the things Jon listed above, there are no real restrictions on unsubbed players vs subbed players. In fact, I believe many of those sub perks (extra inventory, etc) remain even after your sub lapses, so in essence, all the STO team did was say, "We know most people just pay the $15 sub fee for a single month to unlock all those things, so now we're making it an official $15 one-time purchase."

    In order for this to work well for CO, they'd have to follow suit and de-emphasize monthly subscriptions. While it'd be healthier for the quality of the game if they did, CO probably doesn't have enough whales in its playerbase to sustain itself without those monthly subs to feed on.​​
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  • soulforgersoulforger Posts: 1,520 Arc User
    soulforger wrote: »
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Aren't Free Form Slots basically already our version of this? A one time purchase that gives you a key feature of being subbed permanently. Every other feature of subbing is basically just what Jon said, giving you the store and thwarting a ton of other purchases, so that part wouldn't make sense as a one time purchase ( except as LTS ).

    So I guess we already have two versions of this, one being FF slots, and the only other one that makes sense for what you get, LTS.
    I'd have to say that FF slots...are not as good as the deal the thing STO is doing. FF cost a lot of money. While the package STO is offering is basically the price of one month of subbing. But, at least, STO players do not lose any benifits they got when their sub time runs out. If CO did the same thing, they would make it so that a character that got such a package bought for them would never lose the benefits. But, because of how CO is, they would have to make it so the package only benefits the toon that used/received the package. Of course, the package couldn't gave the free character slot though. Though, at the same time, switching to this deal would mean they'd have to leave character slots open if a gold sub goes back to a silver sub (instead of locking them as it currently does).

    But, that would be how they'd have to do it to continue receiving money. Overall, I'd say it is a bad idea, simply because there are some players that sub, despite having only one or two characters. Thus, those players, would than spend only one sub worth of money on one purchase, and thus never pay for any more sub time. Which would mean less money for CO.
    I could see a bundle that gives A FF slot, but it'd need to cost more then 1500 zen.

    Kinda what my point was.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Even for 1 character, a package that gives all benefits of subbing would have to be like...way more expensive than 15 dollars. You just get so much with a CO sub.


    "Champions Online, you just get more!" (tm)

    Exactly.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,220 Arc User
    edited May 9
    Anyways, the slots you get in STO for subbing do NOT count against the number of slots you get for subbing are in addition to the slots you buy. So a proper analogy is largely impossible. CO simply doesn't work that way. The closest analogy I can think of would be an account unlock of a multidimensional bag.

    Also, like I said before, the services bundle in STO stacks with the benefits you get for Subbing, it doesn't replace them.
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 13,709 Arc User
    edited May 10
    What might work is various "Gold Bundles".

    For example the Gold Costume Set Bundle that unlocks all the costume sets you would get with a sub, the price being the sum of all those sets with a discount.

    Gold Archetype Bundle, unlock all ATs, price again is the price of all of them with a discount.

    Gold FF Slot Bundle. 8 FF slots for 300$. ...okay yeah no any sane person would get LTS instead. Maybe 4 slots for 150$? Mmmm... 4 slots for 100$ maaaaybe...

    By splitting the things up into several bundles to mitigate that big whopping cost some it could work. Except that last one...that one's a hard sell cause it keeps creeping towards LTS price.

    EDIT - WAIT... I just realized there are 25 ATs in the store and at 1150 zen each that's like $287.50 so even with a discount even that's creeping up on LTS... fudgin heck you just get too much value with a sub for this to work.

    Maybe if they were split into small groups of ATs in the bundle or something... this is too hard I give up >:T
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 5,636 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    EDIT - WAIT... I just realized there are 25 ATs in the store and at 1150 zen each that's like $287.50 so even with a discount even that's creeping up on LTS...
    Discounts can be highly nonlinear, the value of additional ATs drops quite rapidly.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 5,636 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Even at 50% off I'd still be like "I'll wait for a LTS sale".
    "Highly nonlinear" would be something like a cumulative 20% (so AT 2 is 1150 * .8, AT 3 is 1150 * .8 * .8, etc), which works out to 5728Z for 25.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 13,709 Arc User
    edited May 10
    Giving away 287 bucks for 50? Yeah, now I'm the accountant at cryptic saying "Let's just wait and see if they buy at least 5 ATs..."

    See the issue here is that as you get closer to the "right amount" for something like this, the closer you get to the price of LTS which makes the offer look ridiculous by comparison.
    Post edited by spinnytop on
  • darqaura2darqaura2 Posts: 885 Arc User
    edited May 10
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Giving away 287 bucks for 50? Yeah, now I'm the accountant at cryptic saying "Let's just wait and see if they buy at least 5 ATs..."

    See the issue here is that as you get closer to the "right amount" for something like this, the closer you get to the price of LTS which makes the offer look ridiculous by comparison.

    AGREED. I . . . can't think of way something like this would work for CO . . .
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,220 Arc User
    darqaura2 wrote: »
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Giving away 287 bucks for 50? Yeah, now I'm the accountant at cryptic saying "Let's just wait and see if they buy at least 5 ATs..."

    See the issue here is that as you get closer to the "right amount" for something like this, the closer you get to the price of LTS which makes the offer look ridiculous by comparison.
    AGREED. I . . . can't think of way something like this would work for CO . . .
    Well, you guys are going at it the wrong way. The bundle in STO isn't ALL of the stuff. the STO equivalent of ATs ISN'T in it.
    When you purchase the Elite Starter Pack, the following will unlock for your whole account:
    One new Character Slot
    20 Shared Bank Slots
    5 Captain Retrain Tokens
    An Increase on your Energy Credit Cap to 2 billion Energy Credits
    The account bank slots and retrain tokens are directly equivalent to CO things. The character slot... not so much since STO doesn't have an equivalent of freeform. I suppose that it'd come with a hideout token though.
    Once the initial product is purchased, a new product will appear called Elite Starter Pack Reclaim. This can be claimed once per character and unlocks:
    30 Inventory Slots
    60 Bank Slots
    2 Bridge Officer Slots
    Thing is CO doesn't do inventory and bank slots the same way. You spend G to buy personal bank slots, not Zen. Closest would be to give the player an account unlock for a multi-dimensional bag.

    Also, the concept of bridge officers is most similar to sidekicks, but... sidekicks don't have their own UI slot(which you can have over a dozen of), and they don't hang around as permanent party members.
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  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,092 Arc User
    edited May 10
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Giving away 287 bucks for 50? Yeah, now I'm the accountant at cryptic saying "Let's just wait and see if they buy at least 5 ATs..."
    Realistically, I get the feeling that most people aren't going to fully play every single AT in that theoretical bundle. It's also likely that there's several ATs that a given player might not even want (hi Inventor) and thus, would never actually buy individually.

    Selling an "AT Pass" that gives players access to every single AT (past and future) would very much be an appealing "peace of mind" purchase. What I mean is that, for $10, you can take a chance on something you might absolutely hate or grow bored with, but for $50, you'd be able to try them all out before finally settling in with 1 or 2 that you enjoy playing. You'd also get the feeling of owning an upgraded account, despite being silver. This does a lot for keeping you with the game and thus, likely to spend on more things that are probably better moneymakers for Cryptic, such as lockbox keys, periodic subbing, extra account slots to make all those ATs you now have, and eventually maybe even LTS.​​
    (Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
  • stergasterga Posts: 2,350 Arc User
    Does CO really make a whole lot of money on subs? I mean, the game went F2P for a reason that probably had to do with money and not making enough of it. Also: everyone and their mum uses lootboxes because they make lotsa money despite the negative image they have.

    Cryptic should have cleaned up CO's sub model when the game went F2P. It's kind of stupid that some options aren't available for purchase or the dumb things done to try and encourage subs. Especially since Gold subs look like garbage when you see what the one time purchase of an LTS offers.​​
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  • sistersiliconsistersilicon Posts: 1,622 Arc User
    sterga wrote: »
    Does CO really make a whole lot of money on subs? I mean, the game went F2P for a reason that probably had to do with money and not making enough of it. Also: everyone and their mum uses lootboxes because they make lotsa money despite the negative image they have.

    I think you just answered your own question. Cryptic was probably watching revenue fall off at the time Atari bailed out, but it didn’t really make a difference, because PWE was going to impose their monetization system regardless. “F2P MMOs with lockbox monetization” is their stock in trade, and CO and STO were perfectly positioned to adapt to that system. (That PWE hammered NW, which had a more roguelike structure at the start, into in MMO is a story for another day.)
    sterga wrote:
    Cryptic should have cleaned up CO's sub model when the game went F2P. It's kind of stupid that some options aren't available for purchase or the dumb things done to try and encourage subs. Especially since Gold subs look like garbage when you see what the one time purchase of an LTS offers.​​

    The window of opportunity is long past closed, but it’s turned out to be a blessing in disguise. To the accountants, an LTS purchase looks no different than a sufficiently large Zen binge: An influx of revenue, followed most often by a period of zero revenue. Subs provide a steady cash flow, and with such a small population, maintaining that cash flow is vital. Figuring out the value proposition of free vs. sub vs. lifetime gets more complicated for the player, unfortunately.
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