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Shoving at Cosmics

We really need to shed some light on this subject. I know you're all familiar with the shoving or weird sliding during cosmic fights. It's more apparent when Ape does his AoE and the melee lunge back. Those in melee would often "slide" to the far side when others lunge at ape. This still happens even when you walk to ape, blocking.

Majority blame the growth-users because they're the most noticeable when it happens. However, I don't think that is entirely true since normal-sized toons still get shoved by others.

So, to the devs, how do you think you can solve this? I have a few suggestions...

1) Lessen collision/hitbox of players. (Especially big players, or...)
2) Make all collision/hitbox of players the same regardless of size.
3) Make Giant Growth into a Non-Combat aura only (This one is probably the best option. Most growth-users rp only anyway, so don't see a harm in this.)
4) Remove Giant Growth FX (Growth users will hate this. But since many are complaining how obnoxious it is-especially with reciprocating gizmo adv-I don't think it will cause that much harm. Won't hurt to remove something unique to this game for the sake of efficiency, right?)

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Comments

  • ealford1985ealford1985 Posts: 1,967 Arc User
    edited August 12
    1 & 2 are more of the area they need to look.


    No to 3 & 4...forever.

    If growths are becoming an issues than just don't have them for cosmic fights...same reason people don't bring pets. Removing them just because of cosmic fights is only appealing for a small group, not the masses.
    Post edited by ealford1985 on
  • shadowolf505shadowolf505 Posts: 63 Arc User
    I agree, giant growth is becoming a nuisance at Cosmics. Especially at Kigatilik where you get pushed into the breath range.
  • rtmartma Posts: 1,003 Arc User
    edited August 12
    This has nothing to do with Enrage, it's just a visual effect, it doesn't change your collision cylinder, unless it is something that does like Draysha gas or Artificial life injector but it's minor, as for shoving, I've noticed something odd happen earlier in the year, players being able to push me aside that was virtually incapable before hand, something to do with how player collision detection with each other and how the server updates it (maybe something to do with client hit detection? desync?), when others push you aside the server priorities cause they're faster when it comes to moving or/and have lower ping thus update before you, it wasn't like this last year... (It's like when someone pushing against you with Teleportation in order to move your character because of this)
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 10,385 Arc User
    edited August 12
    You know this reminds me of a suggestion I made a long, long time ago where I suggested that they give all ranged attacks "point blank damage", where they do more damage the closer to your target you are. Someone pointed out that they would hate this because it would mean all the ranged would be crowding in with the melee to try to do max damage.

    Well... I guess we're seeing this in action now lol, since melee doing a significantly greater amount of damage than ranged is basically that in action. I guess that's why more and more every time I go to cosmics I see more melee, and less ranged ( especially at dino ). Recently got a new melee dps to 40 and headed to cosmics with it...felt like trying to go shopping on Black Friday xD


    1) Lessen collision/hitbox of players. (Especially big players, or...)
    2) Make all collision/hitbox of players the same regardless of size.
    3) Make Giant Growth into a Non-Combat aura only (This one is probably the best option. Most growth-users rp only anyway, so don't see a harm in this.)
    4) Remove Giant Growth FX (Growth users will hate this. But since many are complaining how obnoxious it is-especially with reciprocating gizmo adv-I don't think it will cause that much harm. Won't hurt to remove something unique to this game for the sake of efficiency, right?)

    #1 & #2 might work... or it might only temporarily alleviate the problem until people feel comfortable bringing even more melee toons ( for dat high score! ) and then you just have even more people mashed in there and the problem begins anew!

    #3 & #4 would be the more long term solution. Completely disabling these effects in combat solves a lot of problems. Being super big is neat, but it's the same as being super fat on the bus or subway - I'm sure you're enjoying your huge body, but everyone around you is being inconvenienced by it.


    Then there's solution #5... people just stop bringing so many melee to fights and instead switch to a ranged, and stop being so concerned about being absolutely tip top on the scoreboard ( and realize that ranged dps can beat dino too ). I doubt people could be so rational tho, it's all 'bout dat scoreboard!


    Solution #6... disable collision entirely ( if possible only during cosmics ). This is how other games solve the problem, they just don't have collision to begin with if they're gonna have 40+ player content. However I wonder if the shove pit is actually a balancing factor, so we don't just bring only melee dps characters for maximum dps :'3
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  • aesicaaesica Posts: 1,372 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Then there's solution #5... people just stop bringing so many melee to fights and instead switch to a ranged, and stop being so concerned about being absolutely tip top on the scoreboard ( and realize that ranged dps can beat dino too ). I doubt people could be so rational tho, it's all 'bout dat scoreboard!
    In fairness, players pushing endgame content in any game tend to gravitate toward whatever performs the best. If this game favors melee in terms of damage output (that's utterly terrible if so) then that's unfortunate because there's much better ways to balance the two. (Or they could just do away with the divide completely and allow for the mixing of ranged and melee powers without penalty--gasp!)

    As for the scoreboard, as long as it exists, people are going to chase it. You can't expect people to just change their ways on this because it goes against humans' competitive nature.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Solution #6... disable collision entirely ( if possible only during cosmics ). This is how other games solve the problem, they just don't have collision to begin with if they're gonna have 40+ player content. However I wonder if the shove pit is actually a balancing factor, so we don't just bring only melee dps characters for maximum dps :'3
    Wow doesn't have player-player (or even player-enemy) collisions and it makes positioning and the gameplay in general feel a lot better. In CO, player collisions don't add anything of value besides annoyance.
    3) Make Giant Growth into a Non-Combat aura only (This one is probably the best option. Most growth-users rp only anyway, so don't see a harm in this.)
    4) Remove Giant Growth FX (Growth users will hate this. But since many are complaining how obnoxious it is-especially with reciprocating gizmo adv-I don't think it will cause that much harm. Won't hurt to remove something unique to this game for the sake of efficiency, right?)
    As much as I'd LOVE for this to happen, I can only begin to imagine the outrage it'd cause.

    "But I want to be the fat guy on the bus who crowds you out of your seat!"

    At the very least, an option to ignore/not see other players' growth effects would be fantastic.​​
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  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,159 Arc User
    There should technically be a way to make combat auras which allow players to either grow to a certain size or shrink to a certain size (likely to be max ends of Super Shrinker and Super Growth devices).

    I guess it could be, made so that it is just a visual aspect, so the hitboxes of everyone would remain the same size, but visually they are larger / smaller.

    You can sort of see this when you apply two different kinds of bubbles. Protection Field seems to scale to target's visual size regardless of anything. Whereas Mindful Reinforcement scales to a set size it seems.

    Personally, my main draw is "super shrink", I'd love an aura which allows me to be tiny in combat yet not cause any problems for normal combat.

    I assume something like that could be done...however, based on previous discussions around this topic...I guess what is most likely to happen is that Giant Growth or size manipulation is simply suppressed in Cosmic instances, possibly by some freaky "normalization aura" or something...
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 1,954 Arc User
    edited August 13
    This isn't entirely true. Most tanks are going to score relatively low. I often bring an AoAC or AoED and I'm always in the lower third. I don't care about the score. I want the reward in the most expeditious way possibl.e
    aesica said:


    As for the scoreboard, as long as it exists, people are going to chase it. You can't expect people to just change their ways on this because it goes against humans' competitive nature.

    ​​

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  • omnilord#8416 omnilord Posts: 95 Arc User
    On the other side of the same coin, then the Cosmics should suppress the 37 eye gouging auras people have on. Because I lose track of what my toon's doing when I'm surrounded by people that look like miniature stars. Sometimes I get interrupted or my energy was too low to initiate an attack, and I don't realize it because I can't see that my character didn't make their attack.

    Or you wanna know what'd be better? If EVERYBODY was just reverted to the default character models, without auras, or size changing and everybody was the Unleashed AT. That way there would always be a balance between the ranged and melee with swords and guns. Yep yep!
  • flyingfinnflyingfinn Posts: 6,932 Arc User
    Maybe if these fights would allow flight....
    Not so may people would be beating the villains ankles and take the fight to a more appropriate level, where your hits actually counted. Like the head.
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  • pwestolemynamepwestolemyname Posts: 528 Arc User
    spinnytop said:


    Solution #6... disable collision entirely ( if possible only during cosmics ). This is how other games solve the problem, they just don't have collision to begin with if they're gonna have 40+ player content. However I wonder if the shove pit is actually a balancing factor, so we don't just bring only melee dps characters for maximum dps :'3

    So, would this mean that people could essentially stand "in" each other, that is, in the exact same spot?

    Also, I agree with whoever said that this seems like a new problem. In the past, I do not recall ever getting shoved. Seems like that was up until a few months ago, when it started to become a real issue.

    Another solution would be to extend the hit-box of Cosmics out past their skin. Shoving is a problem when too many people need to get close enough to hit. So, if you could hit the Cosmic from 15 feet, instead of just 10, then that would create more space for people to stand.
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  • gradiigradii Posts: 11,054 Arc User
    STO has a better collision model. You're not a ghost, but you can get very close to someone else before bumping into them, and aren't stopped by an invisible force field like in CO.​​
  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,107 Arc User
    Here we go again, with Gradii's misinformation. STO uses the same collision engine. The differences is that you don't have bigger models that actually increases the collision hit box like CO does. The bits that cause the issue with pushing is the result of the prediction conflicting with any slight changes in hit box that occur. Hence why someone teleport pushing someone can do it since the teleport fuzzy has a smaller hit box than a maxed out slider character model.
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 4,117 Arc User
    Teleport actually sets no-collision (you can see it on the tooltip).
  • nephtnepht Posts: 6,628 Arc User

    On the other side of the same coin, then the Cosmics should suppress the 37 eye gouging auras people have on. Because I lose track of what my toon's doing when I'm surrounded by people that look like miniature stars. Sometimes I get interrupted or my energy was too low to initiate an attack, and I don't realize it because I can't see that my character didn't make their attack.

    Or you wanna know what'd be better? If EVERYBODY was just reverted to the default character models, without auras, or size changing and everybody was the Unleashed AT. That way there would always be a balance between the ranged and melee with swords and guns. Yep yep!

    This. Just have a AOE that turns off auras and effects like giant growth at cosmics. Problem solved.

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  • omnilord#8416 omnilord Posts: 95 Arc User

    Here we go again, with Gradii's misinformation. STO uses the same collision engine. The differences is that you don't have bigger models that actually increases the collision hit box like CO does. The bits that cause the issue with pushing is the result of the prediction conflicting with any slight changes in hit box that occur. Hence why someone teleport pushing someone can do it since the teleport fuzzy has a smaller hit box than a maxed out slider character model.

    Even if there's two characters using the default proportions, they still can't stand as close to each other as they can in STO. Or did you mean that -because- we can change sizes in CO, they made the normal hitbox larger so the game can predict collisions easier?
  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,107 Arc User



    Even if there's two characters using the default proportions, they still can't stand as close to each other as they can in STO. Or did you mean that -because- we can change sizes in CO, they made the normal hitbox larger so the game can predict collisions easier?

    The hit boxes in CO are their size mostly to accommodate various costume pieces that can be applied and the size of this hit box can change based on the size of the avatar as well as probably the travel powers themselves, not to mention the collision versus certain critters in the game, such as Teleiosaurus. Certain growth devices will make your hit box larger just like certain shrink devices will change it. I doubt the hit boxes will be changed and regardless of effect, people would still get pushed around due to the fact of the prediction engine trying to predict where you should be versus what is in the location.

    The avatars in STO never have their hit box change but you can still push people around in STO, just the number of methods that can be used is less, since they don't have a bunch of high speed travel powers to abuse it so in general you won't see the effects of someone abusing say teleport, but it does happen there, it's just not as noticeable or abusable because of those facts. In the end little can be done about the prediction engine to prevent it. Even if the hit boxes were smaller, people could still push you out of the way, and outside of them writing a brand new engine for it I doubt it will change much.
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 4,117 Arc User
    Removing wing selection boxes would be a blessing. It doesn't affect collision, but it does make clicking on things a giant PITA.
  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,107 Arc User

    Removing wing selection boxes would be a blessing. It doesn't affect collision, but it does make clicking on things a giant PITA.

    Wings and tails since it seems a lot of people can't have either without making them ridiculously huge.
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 4,117 Arc User
    Really, selection boxes for all characters should be the same size. It would also allow shrinking without being OP.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 4,117 Arc User

    I don't think zenith was actually bothering to read the statement of the selection box. I think they are imagining we are talking about removing the costumes in general. But whatever. *shrugs*

    chaosdrgnz43 did suggest removing. Personally, I have characters where I'd want to use both Growth and Shrinking if the one didn't cause problems and the other wasn't forbidden, and constant size hit/selection boxes would solve that.
  • kaizerinkaizerin Posts: 1,538 Cryptic Developer
    Adjusting hitboxes and such isn't really in the cards.

    However, I've been considering having effects like giant growth and such suppress against large encounter enemies.​​
  • catstarstocatstarsto Posts: 849 Arc User
    kaizerin said:

    Adjusting hitboxes and such isn't really in the cards.



    However, I've been considering having effects like giant growth and such suppress against large encounter enemies.​​

    would that mean giant growth would cost a point now? Since its currently only a visual effect atm.
  • chaosdrgnz43chaosdrgnz43 Posts: 804 Arc User
    kaizerin said:

    Adjusting hitboxes and such isn't really in the cards.



    However, I've been considering having effects like giant growth and such suppress against large encounter enemies.​​

    I can assume there will be a debuff during cosmics that prevents growth or other obnoxious fx. Not a bad idea actually.
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 4,117 Arc User

    I can assume there will be a debuff during cosmics that prevents growth or other obnoxious fx. Not a bad idea actually.

    Cosmics are already immune to a lot of obnoxious fx. Ah, for the good old days when all fx played on the Harbinger and your frame rate dropped to 0.2 in Lemurian Invasion.
  • chaosdrgnz43chaosdrgnz43 Posts: 804 Arc User

    I can assume there will be a debuff during cosmics that prevents growth or other obnoxious fx. Not a bad idea actually.

    Cosmics are already immune to a lot of obnoxious fx. Ah, for the good old days when all fx played on the Harbinger and your frame rate dropped to 0.2 in Lemurian Invasion.
    Actually, I meant a debuff for the players, not the cosmics themselves. Probably like the "Fighting Supervillains!" debuff or something.
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  • pandoraslockboxpandoraslockbox Posts: 282 Arc User
    heh... I still haven't had a problem with this. Just stand to the side like I do! :) Or use jump to stand on top of people.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 10,385 Arc User

    heh... I still haven't had a problem with this. Just stand to the side like I do! :) Or use jump to stand on top of people.

    Then you just haven't been to a cosmic with enough melee present.
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  • decorumfriendsdecorumfriends Posts: 2,734 Arc User
    kaizerin said:

    Adjusting hitboxes and such isn't really in the cards.



    However, I've been considering having effects like giant growth and such suppress against large encounter enemies.​​

    That'd be the best solution I can see. Certainly better than doing anything permanent to the size-changing itself. The problem is at cosmics, let the solution match.

    'Dec out

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  • championshewolfchampionshewolf Posts: 4,107 Arc User



    That'd be the best solution I can see. Certainly better than doing anything permanent to the size-changing itself. The problem is at cosmics, let the solution match.

    Define let the solution match? There is absolutely no instance at any cosmic fight that giant growth is necessary or even beneficial. And in all instances, tends to be detrimental.
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 10,385 Arc User

    Define let the solution match? There is absolutely no instance at any cosmic fight that giant growth is necessary or even beneficial. And in all instances, tends to be detrimental.

    He means since the problem is only at cosmics, then let the solution only be at cosmics.
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